Serious Question To Christians

[MesaGman]

Let's just assume that God is real and he has all the power in the world to manipulate the universe as he is the creator and that we ARE his children. Also that we can become Gods, or we have his position, who knows maybe he decides that we athiests complain too much about him, and "Bruce Allmighty's" us with his powers.....

 

As a HUMAN father, I wouldn't dream of striking down my son or daughter with disease! I wouldn't gouge out their eyes blinding them. As a God I wouldn't let babies be born with spinal bifidida, or down syndrom, because if I were a human endowed with these God powers, I would cure all ailments and curses to Earth. Without having people believe who I am. I wouldn't care.

 

So, why would a HEAVENLY FATHER, decide to strike a kid with Spinal Bifidifa, or blindness, or Chron's disease, or Down Syndrom, or the dreaded Schizophrenia. or with God's powers, why doesn't he uncurse the world, with a magical wave of his hand, regardeless if people believe him or not?

 

If me a lowly Human, a sinner destined for hell as you Christians put it, can know the difference between compassion, and crultey. Why can't a God, who controls all, is all, and will be all for ever as the Alpha and Omega?

[Kratos]

I am trusting you, MesaGman, by replying to your post since it is in the Colosseum rather than the Den. that you are not baiting Christians with your question and it is indeed a serious question as you say. If things follow as they usually do, you will soon see why the risk on my part as others jump in.

 

As I understand it, this world and all its ills were necessary in the plan of God to make us in His image and His likeness. Many look at the "fall of man" as a time when man ceased to be in God's image as we learned about good and evil. But, surely God knows the difference between good and evil so it follows logically that the "fall" was a part of the plan that we gradually be made to be like Him.

 

Let me give an analogy that is not perfect and many will probably point out why, but it will at least give you one Christian man's perspective of why there is pain and evil in the world.

 

Suppose a father had a dream of their child becoming a world class athlete like Tiger Wood's father must have dreamed when starting him in golf at 4 years old. He would have you lifitng weights and running miles on end and doing push-ups and sit-ups etc. You might wonder at moments when you are weary with the pain and body aches why he is so hateful and mean to make you endure such torment. You might even at times find yourself hating your father because he let you go through so much pain.

 

Possibly if you did not rebel against your father's dream for you and run away from his training, you might one day adopt his dream for you and willingly ask for more training so you could become even a better athlete. You may no longer resent your father and his ways as you did when you were a small child because you have come to understand that we only get stronger through pushing against resistence.

 

Hopefully one day when you are standing on the podium receiving your gold medal at the Olympics, you will finally understand fully the love of your father for you. You will understand that when muscles are not allowed to push against resistence they atrophy and grow weak and die. On the other hand, when more and more resistence is added so you are always pushing against more than you can comfortably handle, your muscles grow stronger every day. You might even understand that the only reason you are a world champion is because your father started training you younger than other athletes because he did not wait for you to want the exercise yourself. He knew that by the time you asked for this hard work, you would have been too old to become a world champion one day.

 

The Bible says that because we are God's children He subjected us to vanity so that through our suffering in this life we could become the Sons of God through what we received through suffering in this life (Rom. 8:16-25). I think that the reason a lot of people cannot yet see this is they are still in the midst of doing painful push-ups and have not yet seen the gold medal stand in their eventual future. I want to add that I do not believe that God micromanages this world in this age so this does not mean that He chooses sickness for this one and poverty for that one. I believe that he lowered us into a sin cursed world because His Kingdom has no such things to resist by which we can grow spiritually in strength.

 

I am a gardener and am now starting my tomato plants from seed in the greenhouse. I know from experience that I need to have fans blowing lightly on the small plants because gravity alone is not enough for plants to push against to become strong. They need to stand against steadily growing pressure if they are going to be strong and bear fruit. This is a part of life.

[MesaGman]

no I'm serious I'm just curious.. because if you were a God would you not use your Alpha and Omega powers to do lovable things like create a disease free world?

 

Therefore my question is how can there be a Holy Father, who doesn't this. This is the antithesis of love. Therefore how can he be a loving Father?

 

I'm just curious. because I like my information to be A=A (loveable Father with power=Does lovable things). Yet, I'm curious that A=B (Lovable Father power=does unlovable things).

 

this is non sequiter.

[DarthOkkata]

Seems like a 'the cake is still in the oven' excuse to me.

 

I don't see why 'heavenly father' would be needed to explain biological defect. In fact, the appearance of such defect would point to the opposite conclusion. To many variations of 'something gone wrong' to account for just an occasional mistake from a perfect being getting rushed from baking too many cookies.

 

That's what it would have to amount too in the end. Most birth defects are caused by too much, or too little of something at a particular developmental stage. Others problems are caused by injury, drugs [perscription or otherwise], parental diet, and other organisms, such as viruses or bacteria. It's not an unreasonable idea to suspect homosexuality, webbed feet, and alcoholism have a similar cause from a clinical perspective.

 

If it was a bakery, it would probably fail a health and safety inspection.

 

The problem with the 'overworked god' is that such a being would not be omnipotent, nor omnipresent. It gets chalked up as 'divine plan' in an unusual weird rationalization.

 

Christians are often forced to come up with weird rationalizations for all sorts of philosophical walls.

 

Such as the racist Jesus in Mathew 15: 22-28. Christians try to make his words there sound kinder, as if it's some sort of moral story about humility. They rationalize their way past the obvious, into a deeper, more friendly explanation. It's supported by another verse, where the apostles are shocked to see him walking with a Sumerian woman. Given the way it's put in the bible, it would seem that they had reason to believe this was unusual behavior for him.

 

Sorry pal, but if you're not a Jew, you're roasting with the rest of us according to big J.

 

How the apostles 'marketed' his teachings later on is another story all together.

 

I'm personally of a mind that Jesus himself never really existed. I think the bible belongs on the same shelf as '1001 Arabian Nights'. There's no real evidence to support historical Jesus, or historical Moses for that matter.

 

I don't have anything against the 'idea' of god, even though I don't buy into it myself. I've seen no evidence that disproves a supreme being.

 

A personal god is another matter, especially one named Jesus, or Allah, or Krishna, or Ra, or Odin, or Zeus.

 

I feel I can say with some authority that we are not 'evolving into gods'. That's textbook wishful thinking, even if it is for future generations. That I evolved from a monkey, that in turn evolved from a smaller mammal, that I can buy. There's evidence that points to it being the case after all.

 

That an all powerful, all knowing being built his own 'me' farm, and is just waiting for the fruit to 'ripen' just sounds strange.

 

He's omnipotent, omnipresent, and all powerful? Why not just skip a step and divide like a cell or something? If he is all those things, I don't see 'loneliness' as a real issue for him. Some sort of weird drawn out reproduction master plan just seems unlikely.

 

Now, agriculture for food...that's a different story. It would also explain why he might have interest in how we turn out.

 

Still, evidence doesn't really support that either, so I'm in the same boat as them, making stuff up. If that does happen to be the case, I would like to be eaten first. Not that it will matter if I'm not, I'll be insane anyway.

 

I don't see it as a valid excuse for it all, and once again, the bible comes up short on 'explanation' and distracts with another flat line of 'Love and believe, and you'll be rewarded, so don't think about it too hard.'

 

After all, you're not worthy of an explanation, it's not for you to understand because you're too stupid and haven't repented enough because you're asking so many questions, you unworthy sod.

 

Same old ball and chain. What gets me, is the way they try and make it look like asking questions is encouraged. The truth of the matter, is you can only ask about certain subjects if you want a real answer. Everything else is entrusted to god, and you shouldn't bother with worrying about it.

 

I'm glad it's on someone else's leg now. I found a key hidden in my biology text back when I was a kid. Lucky me.

 

If you have to make weird rationalizations to explain your perspective, you're probably incorrect.

 

As for other diseases, God loves flesh eating viruses, and cancerous tumors too! You shouldn't be so selfish, there are a lot of us living things down here. If only there was a way to weed out the ones not strong enough to resist illness and avoid disease...

[MesaGman]

and not just birth defects like Darthokata points out, what about illness. What sane father would let their children live in a cesspool of disease? (not talking about man made enviromental inhabitable places. ie. Chernobyl) Why did God in his infinite power create diseases to strike children down with? or parisitical insects. Killer Bees: That's our bad. but a mosquito carrying Dengue fever or Malaria?

[Deva]

Hopefully one day when you are standing on the podium receiving your gold medal at the Olympics, you will finally understand fully the love of your father for you. You will understand that when muscles are not allowed to push against resistence they atrophy and grow weak and die. On the other hand, when more and more resistence is added so you are always pushing against more than you can comfortably handle, your muscles grow stronger every day. You might even understand that the only reason you are a world champion is because your father started training you younger than other athletes because he did not wait for you to want the exercise yourself. He knew that by the time you asked for this hard work, you would have been too old to become a world champion one day.

 

The Bible says that because we are God's children He subjected us to vanity so that through our suffering in this life we could become the Sons of God through what we received through suffering in this life (Rom. 8:16-25).

 

So suffering is all for the better. Sounds like pie in the sky when you die. God will one fine day reward us for our suffering. Also sounds like you think suffering inevitably improves a person, or at least in the sweet by and by one day it will.

 

Another example of Chrisitans elevating suffering into something holy. This is an unsatisfactory answer. Suffering does not in all cases (even most cases) improve a person spiritually or in any otherway. On the contrary, it can reletlessly beat a person down until they are destroyed. All you need do is look around you for examples.

[DarthOkkata]

and not just birth defects like Darthokata points out, what about illness. What sane father would let their children live in a cesspool of disease? (not talking about man made enviromental inhabitable places. ie. Chernobyl) Why did God in his infinite power create diseases to strike children down with? or parisitical insects. Killer Bees: That's our bad. but a mosquito carrying Dengue fever or Malaria?

 

Population control comes to mind. That does sort of contradict the whole 'be fruitful and multiply' and 'dominion over the earth and the stuff that lives on it' though.

 

Nature seems a more likely culprit for that sort of thing. Not exactly doing a bang up job of killing us off to stable levels though.

 

Either we're outsmarting something that has no mind [nature] and are running through our resources at an alarming rate due to our own overzealous breeding, or we've outwitted the omnipotent, all powerful, omnipresent, eternal Lord and Master of the Universe, less one Castle Greyskull, and trashed his pad.

 

We seem to act more like our greatest threat, the virus, than any sort of created caretaker of the Lord and Savior's 'special place'.

 

Environmental issues aside, we'll likely breed ourselves into a turf/resources war eventually.

 

That is, if we've not rendered our planet inhospitable by then.

 

It just doesn't mesh well with the whole loving attentive god idea, unless of course, you use weird rationalizations to wedge him in there.

[ogilvy]

and not just birth defects like Darthokata points out, what about illness. What sane father would let their children live in a cesspool of disease? (not talking about man made enviromental inhabitable places. ie. Chernobyl) Why did God in his infinite power create diseases to strike children down with? or parisitical insects. Killer Bees: That's our bad. but a mosquito carrying Dengue fever or Malaria?

 

and in the OT, isaiah or something, God says he will send drought and famine to his people, and that their children will be crying of thirst at the ends of ths streets. God even sounds pleased with it when he says this.

 

he also extends the punishment to animals.

[florduh]

Enduring trials to grow in strength and other areas makes sense. Life actually works that way.

 

The problem is the misery meted out to children who die young, and the animals affected by god's misery.

 

What is the point if there is no chance to grow from the experience?

[Taphophilia]

I don't think that Christians have a clue what suffering is, as evidenced by Kratos post.

 

• Every year, around 200,000 women and children are victims of the slave trade in Southeast Asia, according to the International Organization for Migration (IOM). Trafficked children are being forced into sweatshops, brothels and begging on the streets.

 

• Between 100,000 and 150,000 Nepalese women and girls were sent in 2000 to India, where they were sexually exploited, reports the Committee on the Rights of the Child. The Bangladesh National Women Lawyers’ Association reports that more than 13,000 children were trafficked out of Bangladesh in the last five years.

 

• UNICEF estimates that there are 200,000 child slaves in West and Central Africa.

 

• In June 2000, Human Rights Watch denounced the practice of employing children in slave-like conditions on U.S. farms. About 50,000 women and children enter the United States each year to be used as slaves, the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency admitted in April 2000.

 

• In Brazil, 40,000 children are sold every year to work on farms and as domestic servants. The traffickers lure girls with promises of jobs in restaurants in remote parts of the Amazon. Once there, they are forced to work in nightclubs and moved from one mining community to another.

 

• Girls from Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador are taken to Mexico and sold to brothels for $100 or $200 each, according to Casa Alianza, a human rights NGO that defends children in danger in the region. In Nicaragua, an average of one child disappears every three days.

[Neon Genesis]

Possibly if you did not rebel against your father's dream for you and run away from his training, you might one day adopt his dream for you and willingly ask for more training so you could become even a better athlete. You may no longer resent your father and his ways as you did when you were a small child because you have come to understand that we only get stronger through pushing against resistence.

So how did Acchan's kids get stronger, Kratos? Or what about the kids in 2 Kings 2:23-24? Or the Egpytian kiddies in Exodus 12:29-30?

[Guest end3]

maybe to let the children learn on their own....

[Deva]

maybe to let the children learn on their own....

 

 

End, how are they going to learn anything if they are dead? I think that was the point Neon was making. Or do you think it would happen in the afterlife?

[Hrothwulf]

So if the son doesn't want to be an Olympic athlete, he actually thinks for himself and his wants to live his own life rather than be constantly controlled by his domineering father, what then? The father sets him on fire?

 

Your analogy would sorta work if Christian theology held that all who reject God get to go somewhere else. Maybe to another God, or another universe, or another reality, or just oblivion.

[MesaGman]

maybe to let the children learn on their own....

 

 

>>>I fail to understand what a child born with blindness will learn, End.

[Guest end3]

I can appreciate that MesaGman. At this point I am still choosing to believe, and am humbled at the capacity of God and people, including the child born blind and the persons surrounding the child.

[DarthOkkata]

I can appreciate that MesaGman. At this point I am still choosing to believe, and am humbled at the capacity of God and people, including the child born blind and the persons surrounding the child.

 

Human capacity I can understand, God is a quart low.

 

I agree that blindness is not the same thing as being retarded, or having some sort of terminal illness. It's a disability, but one can learn to live with it, just as one can learn to live without hearing, or a leg.

 

I've yet to see god repair any of these defects. The old 'God doesn't heal amputees' argument again.

 

One doesn't need god to live with blindness, or without hearing. God doesn't seem interested in helping those who won't live because of their defects either.

 

God doesn't help people who help themselves, you help yourself, and god is an unnecessary addition to the equation. Stop trying to give credit where it doesn't belong. It irks me to no end, when I work at my job, and walk out onto the floor to see people thanking Jesus for the work myself, farmers, delivery people, and my co-workers do for them. Never mentioning where their meal really came from, as if God filled their plates and set them before them himself.

 

I've got family with serious disabilities, they learn, the people around them learn, and become stronger it's true. It's not because of divine power, it's because they get tougher, and learn to deal with the additional issues that type of disability presents. Adaptability is not a holy gift, it's an evolutionary requirement.

 

Suffering does make you tougher, but it's hardly a high moral quality. It's something that should, and can be avoided by learning to adapt. I never thought Basic Combat Training was god's way of making me stronger, it was the Army, and he had nothing to do with how much tougher I got.

 

Suffering is, unfortunately, not always avoidable. Survival of the fittest and all that.

 

You're trying to wedge the 'spirit of divinity' into something that doesn't need it.

 

Christians will say that god helps give people strength, hope, and confidence. I've got plenty of that without him, and anyone else can get it the same way. Jesus is just an unneeded excuse for strength you've already got naturally.

 

As an example, Alcoholics Anonymous uses 'higher power' to curb addiction. Unfortunately, it doesn't work very well. According to their own records, AA has the exact same success rate as people who just quit cold turkey. Around 10% or so. It's not the higher power, or the support group that's making them quit, they have to do it for themselves. It's a question of personal will power, not divine intervention.

 

Some people don't have it, and Jesus doesn't give it to them. They just remain weak, and huddle close to the nail in his feet in vain hope of protection and miracles that won't happen. Wasting precious time, energy, and emotion on a dead end that does more harm than good instead of learning to deal with it themselves.

 

People with shortened lives shouldn't waste time on their knees begging for hope and magical cures. They should do what they can with what they have left. Sitting in a church with tear filled eyes, looking on the mangled suffering face of a false god won't help them. In fact, it can only make them feel a short burst of euphoria, followed by the crushing reality of illness.

 

They're better off helping research to deal with their disease than wishing for a magical hand laying to wish away their problems.

 

It's sick to cart people with problems like that somewhere they don't need to be, for little more than a temporary emotional lift and a pity parade. Take them to Disney World, they'll get more out of it, have a better time, and should something go wrong while traveling when they shouldn't, they'll have better access to real help. The medical staff there is top notch.

 

I've seen them sitting in churches, some hoping for a miracle, others simply putting up with it for the sake of their family's emotions. People with real illness are often stronger, and wiser, than those taking care of them.

 

It's one of the worst and most wasteful applications of faith.

[Kratos]

There are two Biblical principles that are not taught by the traditional church that helps me to hold to my understanding of vanity and suffering and evil as part of God's plan to make us in His image.

 

The first is the eventual salvation of all and the second is that God has worked through many ages and will continue to work with man for ages to come.

 

If I believe that it was a one shot deal and there was an eternal Hell for those who "failed the test", I would agree that my view in untenable. I do not intend to go over teaching these two principles from the Bible to prove that this is not just wishful thinking on my part as I know Bible teaching to those who do not hold the source in any regard is at best futile and at worst annoying.

 

But I agree wholeheartedly that when God is taught as all loving and His plan is that we suffer through life and then die and go to Hell, it is ignorance gone to seed. It does not sit right with anyone who has either a heart or a brain. If that child born blind or one who lives a short miserable life of poverty or war or disease is not raised again to another age and a better life than count me out and deconverted.

[DarthOkkata]

There are two Biblical principles that are not taught by the traditional church that helps me to hold to my understanding of vanity and suffering and evil as part of God's plan to make us in His image.

 

The first is the eventual salvation of all and the second is that God has worked through many ages and will continue to work with man for ages to come.

 

If I believe that it was a one shot deal and there was an eternal Hell for those who "failed the test", I would agree that my view in untenable. I do not intend to go over teaching these two principles from the Bible to prove that this is not just wishful thinking on my part as I know Bible teaching to those who do not hold the source in any regard is at best futile and at worst annoying.

 

But I agree wholeheartedly that when God is taught as all loving and His plan is that we suffer through life and then die and go to Hell, it is ignorance gone to seed. It does not sit right with anyone who has either a heart or a brain. If that child born blind or one who lives a short miserable life of poverty or war or disease is not raised again to another age and a better life than count me out and deconverted.

 

Yeah, but you won't know one way or another without this 'other age' coming to fruition. That's an unreasonable standard really. What if it never shows up?

 

I suppose you might not notice. Seems likely, as I was dead for an infinite number of years before I was born and it didn't bother me a bit.

 

I've not seen him 'working for man' in my lifetime. In fact, he seems more inclined to 'work against man', as most of the Church controlled portion of history is the most violent. I dread such a future, and sincerely hope you're wrong.

 

The Pope became a much nicer guy after he lost his army.

 

'His' image? When did vanity enter the discussion anyway? Since you brought it up, I might point out that this is a very -vain- assumption. It's also rather sexist.

 

Why would god be so interested in making a little mini-me planet anyway? As I brought up before, if he's just lonely, and wants more of himself around, why not just make more of himself? He's all powerful, and omnipotent, right? He could divide like a cell, or create it out of nothing. You know, like he did the Universe.

 

I fail to see the value he might have in such an interest. What makes your, loving, nurturing, psychotic, manic depressive, racist, sexist, control freak, better than Islam's, or Hindu's? I see little difference other than the details of the legend surrounding them.

 

Are their followers also made in their god's image?

 

You're right, it doesn't sit right. Suffering is not of divine origin, it is born of competition for living space, food, and sex on the planet. People aren't the only ones running the race after all. Everything is adapting, and we've got to keep up. That's how disorders come into being.

 

It's not god rushing to keep up, it's us trying to keep pace with the changes around us.

 

The pie in the sky argument sounds nice. It's very pleasant, but about as fact based as Yoko Ono's claims about what 'John would have wanted'.

[Deva]

There are two Biblical principles that are not taught by the traditional church that helps me to hold to my understanding of vanity and suffering and evil as part of God's plan to make us in His image.

 

The first is the eventual salvation of all and the second is that God has worked through many ages and will continue to work with man for ages to come.

 

Since according to Kratos's previous statements on this site, "God's plan" also includes the idea that women must be subservient to men (as in a "chain of command" in the military) in Christian marriage, I don't particularly want to see his plan worked out in ages to come. Note that Kratos never refers to women in this grand plan of pie in the sky. It's father and son or always men. That's because if its God's plan for woman to be subservient to men on earth, why not also in the sweet bye and bye. As a woman, I say "no thanks" to that.

 

"...God's plan to make us in His image." Since on a previous occasion you have told me that your views about female subservience "do not apply" to myself - who is the "us"? Does that also include rebellious women? Sure you don't believe in hell, Kratos?

 

No I'm not going to drop this Kratos. You are posting in the Colosseum and not the Lion's Den because you know what would happen --

[SWIM]

If things follow as they usually do, you will soon see why the risk on my part as others jump in.

 

Funny you anticipate this.. like you KNOW it's coming... Why? Because you know in your heart what you are saying is garbage.

 

As I understand it, this world and all its ills were necessary in the plan of God to make us in His image and His likeness. Many look at the "fall of man" as a time when man ceased to be in God's image as we learned about good and evil. But, surely God knows the difference between good and evil so it follows logically that the "fall" was a part of the plan that we gradually be made to be like Him.

 

No, gawd didn't make us in OUR image, we made him in ours, and what a stinking pile of dung image it was indeed! Rape, incest, murder, oh yeah gawd looks just like us dont he?

 

Krack toes, you really need to use your own mind, and stop letting an imaginary spook tell you how to act an think, you would be so much better off.

[Neon Genesis]

There are two Biblical principles that are not taught by the traditional church that helps me to hold to my understanding of vanity and suffering and evil as part of God's plan to make us in His image.

You've obviously never read Matthew 7:21-23.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

The first is the eventual salvation of all and the second is that God has worked through many ages and will continue to work with man for ages to come.

Expect for gays and uppity women, right? Those people deserve hell, right?

 

If I believe that it was a one shot deal and there was an eternal Hell for those who "failed the test", I would agree that my view in untenable. I do not intend to go over teaching these two principles from the Bible to prove that this is not just wishful thinking on my part as I know Bible teaching to those who do not hold the source in any regard is at best futile and at worst annoying.

Expect unless you have this little thing called proof, IT IS WISHFUL THINKING.

 

But I agree wholeheartedly that when God is taught as all loving and His plan is that we suffer through life and then die and go to Hell, it is ignorance gone to seed. It does not sit right with anyone who has either a heart or a brain. If that child born blind or one who lives a short miserable life of poverty or war or disease is not raised again to another age and a better life than count me out and deconverted.

I sure as hell don't see you deconverting over the bible's teachings against gays and uppity women though, you hypocrite, unless of course God picks and chooses who he feels like making in his image. And since when is it ok for God to sit back and allow innocent people to suffer as long as he makes it up to them later on with hugs and kisses yet he'll answer the prayers of other people? Don't we call that criminal negligence in modern society and usually punish such people for it?

[white_raven23]

I don't think that Christians have a clue what suffering is, as evidenced by Kratos post.

 

• Every year, around 200,000 women and children are victims of the slave trade in Southeast Asia, according to the International Organization for Migration (IOM). Trafficked children are being forced into sweatshops, brothels and begging on the streets.

 

• Between 100,000 and 150,000 Nepalese women and girls were sent in 2000 to India, where they were sexually exploited, reports the Committee on the Rights of the Child. The Bangladesh National Women Lawyers’ Association reports that more than 13,000 children were trafficked out of Bangladesh in the last five years.

 

• UNICEF estimates that there are 200,000 child slaves in West and Central Africa.

 

• In June 2000, Human Rights Watch denounced the practice of employing children in slave-like conditions on U.S. farms. About 50,000 women and children enter the United States each year to be used as slaves, the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency admitted in April 2000.

 

• In Brazil, 40,000 children are sold every year to work on farms and as domestic servants. The traffickers lure girls with promises of jobs in restaurants in remote parts of the Amazon. Once there, they are forced to work in nightclubs and moved from one mining community to another.

 

• Girls from Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador are taken to Mexico and sold to brothels for $100 or $200 each, according to Casa Alianza, a human rights NGO that defends children in danger in the region. In Nicaragua, an average of one child disappears every three days.

 

 

But Taph...those are all "brown people".

 

We are talking suffering, like the kind that really counts. You know, your Hummer broke down on the way to church. Your silly little wife maxed out your credit card so you had to use cash to pay for that combo meal at Carl's Jr.

[Kratos]

Deva,

 

I have never used the term "uppity women" in my life. This is your term and not mine. I do have little tolerance for mean and stupid ones though as I do for men who are the same. This is why I usually avoid the Den because this is where this kind tend to gravitate. I always hope that the "higher rooms" are frequented by more evolved thinkers who see name calling as the lowest form of human interaction. Wrong again.

 

Since I have repeatedly told you and others that women in scripture is a type of the carnal soul or mind which must be subservient to the spiritual mind of Christ and that any form of submission here in this age is soulical training for the next age where there will be no male of female, you are either stupid or continuing to try to dis me through ad hominem attacks. Romans 13 says plainly that every soul (male or female) must be subject to the higher powers for conscience sake before God. Submission is about training the soul for the age to come as God is no respector of persons.

 

At least now Gman understands why Christians will not come to even the Colleseum to answer "serious questions to Christians".

 

John

[florduh]

There are two Biblical principles that are not taught by the traditional church that helps me to hold to my understanding of vanity and suffering and evil as part of God's plan to make us in His image.

 

The first is the eventual salvation of all and the second is that God has worked through many ages and will continue to work with man for ages to come.

 

If I believe that it was a one shot deal and there was an eternal Hell for those who "failed the test", I would agree that my view in untenable. I do not intend to go over teaching these two principles from the Bible to prove that this is not just wishful thinking on my part as I know Bible teaching to those who do not hold the source in any regard is at best futile and at worst annoying.

But I agree wholeheartedly that when God is taught as all loving and His plan is that we suffer through life and then die and go to Hell, it is ignorance gone to seed. It does not sit right with anyone who has either a heart or a brain. If that child born blind or one who lives a short miserable life of poverty or war or disease is not raised again to another age and a better life than count me out and deconverted.

 

 

Firstly, Man was MADE in God's image. Not an ongoing process. And it IS a one shot deal:

 

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Die once then judgement.

 

You are still twisting the untenable scriptures to be acceptable to decent people.

 

You forget that many of us here have been every bit as Christian as you (a fact you will probably deny) and at the very least we've read the Bible and done our share of gymnastics to keep an untenable faith. Eventually one must either quit thinking or give up the religion.