GiantBear Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I will be having a friendly debate with a Christian tomorrow nite at my house. He has a lot more incentive to convert me than I do to de-convert him. I plan to focus on Jesus not meeting the criteria for Messiah. I don't know what he will focus on. Anyways...here are my questions for all of the helpful people 1. What ex-Christian arguments would be most convincing? 2. What ex-Christian arguments would not be convincing? Peace, GiantBear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I will be having a friendly debate with a Christian tomorrow nite at my house. He has a lot more incentive to convert me than I do to de-convert him. I plan to focus on Jesus not meeting the criteria for Messiah. I don't know what he will focus on. Anyways...here are my questions for all of the helpful people 1. What ex-Christian arguments would be most convincing? 2. What ex-Christian arguments would not be convincing? Peace, GiantBear <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Most convincing subjects to me, are the failure of prayer and the inaccuracy/fallability of the bible. The messiah criteria you talk about is part of the fallability of the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I will be having a friendly debate with a Christian tomorrow nite at my house. He has a lot more incentive to convert me than I do to de-convert him. I plan to focus on Jesus not meeting the criteria for Messiah. I don't know what he will focus on. Anyways...here are my questions for all of the helpful people 1. What ex-Christian arguments would be most convincing? 2. What ex-Christian arguments would not be convincing? Peace, GiantBear My advice is not to attack the apologetics of the bible, but to attack the veracity of the claims made in the bible regarding it's historicity. Regarding arguments against God's existence....go to strongatheism.net, they have a good resource of arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Bearmeister... If the BiBull is not an inerrant set of documents drawn and caused to be printed by gohWd his/her/itself, then you can figure it is bullshit.. A discussion, even argument needs to have a foundation where you two (or more) can agree to dis-agree on. He'll say bibull is *truth* he will presupposition a lot, including existnace of god. Make him prove every so-called fact he wants to use as a foundational block. You don't need to be on defence, but can make his offense so hard to build that he'll revert to defending things that once were hardened and pointed out towards you.. Don't let him box you into a "This is such and so, so it it TRVTH" trap.. Have fun, you wont re-convert, and I'm sure he isn't gonna de-convert... kevinL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godless Wonder Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I will be having a friendly debate with a Christian tomorrow nite at my house. He has a lot more incentive to convert me than I do to de-convert him. I plan to focus on Jesus not meeting the criteria for Messiah. I don't know what he will focus on. Anyways...here are my questions for all of the helpful people 1. What ex-Christian arguments would be most convincing? Depends on the person. If someone is a Biblical inerrantist and a young earth creationist, and evolution-denier who thinks Noah's flood literally happened, and that there is evidence to support all this, then the sort of thing that you find on talkorigins.org would be good. But if the person is not a YEC, is not a Biblical inerrentist, then such arguments don't do anything. In that case, getting them to actually read the Bible from front to back might be the best thing. There's a book called "The Bible unearthed" which is pretty good. I don't know if focussing on Jesus not meeting the criteria is the best area, but then, I'm not a believer. I tend to hit them with old testament stuff. Numbers Ch. 31, the way the bible condones slavery, and does so *for ever" (Leviticus 25:44-46). etc. then ask them why the hell that stuff is in there. As for Jesus not fulfilling the prophecies, google for "Matthew's Big Blunder" in which Matt makes an error that tips us off to the fact that he's just making shit up. 2. What ex-Christian arguments would not be convincing? Again, probably depends on what this person believes. Arguments against things they don't believe in the first place are generally ineffective. Actually, odds of changing any particular person's mind are pretty low, so while there are lots of arguments which *should* be effective, in practice, none of them seem to have an effect. The most effective thing I've seen at turning Christians into non-Christians, apart from the Bible itself, is christ-on-a-stick's story here: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=72552 good stuff here too: http://ebonmusings.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 "Anyways...here are my questions for all of the helpful people 1. What ex-Christian arguments would be most convincing? Hell doctrine and lack of prayers answered. 2. What ex-Christian arguments would not be convincing?" Not enough proof. It carries absolutely no weight to those who feel the Spirit's leading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Oh, wait. I forgot two important other reasons people leave the faith. 1) Back-stabbing 2) Hypocricy. Don’t dare to be genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Oh, wait. I forgot two important other reasons people leave the faith. 1) Back-stabbing 2) Hypocricy. Don’t dare to be genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 My 2¢ - I think your best shot is simply pointing out the absurdity of biblical claims and lack of any corroborating evidence. Start with Genesis and work your way onward. Don't forget to give him the history of the biblical canon, esp. the NT. All the other stuff fits within that larger framed argument - prayers unanswered, OT/NT contradictions, scientific evidence, etc. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianka Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 GB, I know you are trying to have a debate, but if you are in a bind, tell them why you question faith. It is a good starting point, and will lead to your own philosophical arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I think you two should just grab a nice movie and watch it together, eat some popcorn and leave it at that. But hey, that's my view. Alternatively, grab a copy of Hitchhikers Guide and start reading "scriptures" to explain the world and our existence from it. Tell him/her about the mice, and why they wanted Earth to be created. -- When I was Christian, I believed because I felt like it. Not because of the arguments. I even knew some of the paradoxes and conflicts, and many contradictions in the Bible. But I believed anyway. I think one way to argue with Christians, is to reach for the emotional parts. Bring up the sinless babies that go to hell. The native indians before the colonisation going to hell also. The slavery and evil deeds done by the "Christians" (and compare it to Jesus words about loving your neigbor). And so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Good stuff on this page http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/pau...radictions.html Thirty pieces of silver According to Matthew 26:15, the chief priests "weighed out thirty pieces of silver" to give to Judas. There are two things wrong with this: a. There were no "pieces of silver" used as currency in Jesus' time - they had gone out of circulation about 300 years before. b. In Jesus' time, minted coins were used - currency was not "weighed out." By using phrases that made sense in Zechariah's time but not in Jesus' time Matthew once again gives away the fact that he creates events in his gospel to match "prophecies" he finds in the Old Testament. The NT Gospels are clearly reverse engineered from the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianka Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I think one way to argue with Christians, is to reach for the emotional parts. Bring up the sinless babies that go to hell. The native indians before the colonisation going to hell also. The slavery and evil deeds done by the "Christians" (and compare it to Jesus words about loving your neigbor). And so on. I think you should take Han's advice, because if you are going to fight with a Christian, go directly for the jugular. But Han does have a point: no one will convert / deconvert based on arguments alone. The only time I truly debate with people over faith / politics is when they force their beliefs on me. If you and your friend are just comparing notes, and it gets a little heated, bust out the Monopoly borad and call it a truce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 But Han does have a point: no one will convert / deconvert based on arguments alone. The only time I truly debate with people over faith / politics is when they force their beliefs on me. I hate when people do that, and unfortunately I've done it many times (unintentionally) to others. Debate is mind-melding in every aspect. If you and your friend are just comparing notes, and it gets a little heated, bust out the Monopoly borad and call it a truce. Even Monopoly can be cause of violence! Especially when my next oldest son is part of it, he always end up will all money, and all streets and all with hotels. He should get into property investments in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ML13 Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Can always try this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 How about the fact that it's unethical to torture billions of people for all of eternity for finite mistakes? Also, bring up the fact that the church edited the Bible and took certain parts out, like the Gospel of Thomas and so forth. And bring up that there were lots of very similar Pagan religions, and that if the church "borrowed" Easter and Christmas from them, what else could they have borrowed? Like, deities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I will be having a friendly debate with a Christian tomorrow nite at my house. He has a lot more incentive to convert me than I do to de-convert him. In the immortal words of the "Robot", "WARNING! WARNING! Danger Will Robinson! Danger!" I wouldn't do this, if I were you. The best and fastest way to ruin a "good" friendship with a Christian, is to discuss/debate his faith. As you stated, he has more incentive. I.E. He has an agenda. He's NOT coming to exchange ideas, but to WIN you to Christ. The Christian idea of a "debate" is to preach salvation and quote scripture, while praying that the Lawd will open your blind eyes. Your friend won't be listening to your well-reasoned arguments. As far as he is concerned, you are just a poor, deluded tool of the devil, who merely hasn't been exposed to the gospel properly. I foresee disaster in store for your friendship. I plan to focus on Jesus not meeting the criteria for Messiah. I don't know what he will focus on. Anyways...here are my questions for all of the helpful people 1. What ex-Christian arguments would be most convincing? 2. What ex-Christian arguments would not be convincing? Peace, GiantBear Fact of the matter is, ANY arguments you use will fall on deaf ears. Any well prepared Christian will disregard your reason, believing his "faith" trumps all. You will literally be speaking different languages. Your ONLY hope for making any headway is for your friend being receptive to ideas/facts challenging his faith. Tell me, is your friend at all familiar with the mountain of evidence we typically utilize and read to refute his faith? If not, then you'll be throwing cold ice water in his face and shocking his system. You'll be intelligently undermining his faith, something he may not be accustomed to, and thus he MAY take offense at being considered ignorant for believing what you demonstrate to be a foolish faith system. GiantBear, I am not at all concerned with you losing this debate. But you may well lose a friendship in the process. I'd tread carefully, if I were you. Fwiw. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 It is true that you should carefully consider whether or not you really want to engage in this type of a dialog. But if you do, or he insists on scoring a convert, here's one possible plan of attack... The foundation for the Christian faith is the Bible, so first I would destroy its credibility. I would point out just a few obvious errors like the two different orders of creation; the two different geneologies of Jesus (Matt/Luke); then have him read to you 2Kings 10 up to verse 30 and ask him to defend God's order to wipe out the house of Ahab. Question that for a while, but keep in mind that verse 30 is very clear that God APPROVED of the massacre. Then go to Hosea 1:4 and see where God is pissed that the house of Ahab was wiped out and he wants revenge. There are SO many more contradictions. If believing in the resurrection is so vital to be saved, why are there four different, conflicting accounts? Couldn't He even get that part right?? Ask if Jesus carried His cross alone, then check John's version. Could this book really be from an omnipotent, omniscient God?? Show him all of the previous "saviours" who were born of a virgin; were called the son of God; were born on Dec 25th; were crucified and rose again; were called the way, the truth, and the light; performed miracles; died to attone for our sins; and rose someone from the dead. Many of these existed WAY before Christianity was thought of. Not to mention the complete absence of historical evidence that Jesus ever lived. Also ask why it was wrong for Adam to eat of the fruit God placed in the center of the garden, when he didn't yet know the difference between right and wrong? Finally, talk about the billions of people who are born in other countries and never hear of the gospel story, and ask what happens to them. If he replies that God will give them an opportunity to accept Jesus, ask why we who have seen the errors and contradictions don't get the same opportunity? You might mention that according to the bible, all who don't hear AND believe will burn in hell forever, even if they die as kids. There is no second chance. Ask why Moses didn't warn of the dangers of hell while he was explaining every little detail of God's law and what the punishments for disobeying were. This is just the tip of the iceberg. If he defends with something stupid like a translation error, just ask why God is so BAD at communicating and can't write what He really means? Why are there thousands of different denominations that believe the SAME book, but disagree on doctrine to the point that most of them think many of the others are heretics and are going to hell!! Or just hang out and eat popcorn. Whatever. If he tries too hard to convert you, then you can at least use the above as a defense. You could always just point him to this site, where we could all enjoy his company... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poonis Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 From my blog: De-converting the Christian Read also: The Battle for your Mind The Mind of the Bible Believer Trying to Force the Rapture Keep this in mind when trying to de-convert a christian: Pointing out the fallacies, absurdities, contradictions, and so on, of the bible to a christian solidifies their faith to the same degree it solidifies your rejection of it. You must appeal to the core of their being, and find something in their life that neither bible nor church has an answer to. For each person it is different. Concentrate on this. Personally, I have had success with asking them why it is they desire to go to Heaven when they die. There is no answer in the bible for this, and the church will never say a word about it, save for playing on an unsubstantiated fear of Hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 There's some posts I skipped reading before I add this to the list, because I don't want to lose my thought. Appeal to sola fide, that a Christian shouldn't base their faith on arguments, philosophy, facts or discussion. Jesus instructed the believer to avoid this with they words of "believe like a child", "blessed are the ones that does not see", and so on. And Paul gave the same instructions, like "faith in the unseen" etc. The Bible (and many Christian Philosophers) doesn't want the Christian to argue or base his belief on reason but only on faith (or emotions). So by your friend coming over and having a discussion, is against the basic dogma for faith. Faith shouldn't be from the arguments but only from hearing God's word, and God giving you faith. It's only by "God's grace" that you can believe, and not by reason. --edit-- To "win" in a situation with a Christian, a debate rarely leads anywhere, but can be the foundation for them to think about what you said at a later stage in life. They probably won't agree to you know, but it will put a seed of rational thought in them. So winning the argument is not necessarily what you need. To really "win", you rather should play poker, since a Christian is not allowed to lie and deceive, and poker is best played when you fool your opponent. Tell him that first before you play, and you can play the shirt of him/her (preferable a "her" ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Personally, I have had success with asking them why it is they desire to go to Heaven when they die. There is no answer in the bible for this, and the church will never say a word about it, save for playing on an unsubstantiated fear of Hell. Very good point. Playing a game of Superlotto with a secret reward, and everyone just must have this prize. But why? Does anyone really know what's in that darn box? Who says Heaven will be such a good and beautiful place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 To "win" in a situation with a Christian, a debate rarely leads anywhere, but can be the foundation for them to think about what you said at a later stage in life. They probably won't agree to you know, but it will put a seed of rational thought in them. So winning the argument is not necessarily what you need. Right. None of the debates I had with any of my non-Christian friends in college convinced me on their own. I had to look for the key out of the virtual prison myself. But it did help me gain the courage to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiantBear Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 Everybody, Thanks a lot for your advice. I share your skepticism on a believer's willingness to convert. I hope it all goes down really low-key. I want to give him a few goodies to ponder and then maybe just hang out. I'm willing to listen to him of course too. I don't care if I "win" but I want to give him something to chew on for the future. If I lost his friendship, it wouldn't matter because we are not that close. But he is a really nice guy and handled our initial conversation well. Peace, GiantBear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 .............Keep this in mind when trying to de-convert a christian: Pointing out the fallacies, absurdities, contradictions, and so on, of the bible to a christian solidifies their faith to the same degree it solidifies your rejection of it. ............. Poonis, these words are the most ACCURATE I have ever read in summing up the futility of "debating" with Christians. Bravo! Christians become smugly proud in their belief that "god" has "blessed" them with the ability to believe his foolishness, while YOU (poor, pathetic wretch) unfortunately remain blind to his "truth". The Christian REJOICES in his ability to believe IN SPITE of all the problems the unbeliever presents. In fact, the MORE "apparent contradictions" and errors you discover and present, the MORE the Christian celebrates his "faith" to believe. I am reminded of a story Christians like to use to "pump up" the power of "faith." A little Christian child is in public school, when somehow the story of the Exodus comes up. The child boldly witnesses that Pharoa's army was drowned in the Red Sea. The teacher (an unbeliever and skeptic) attempts to correct the child, pointing out that history has shown that IF there was an "exodus", that it MUST have occurred at the "REED" Sea. And the Reed Sea was not deep at all, but less than a foot deep of water. The child, totally unfazed by this revelation, says with great faith, "Wow! That's even MORE of a miracle. God drowned an entire army in just a few INCHES of water!" You see, I fully agree with Poonis here. No matter WHAT evidence you put forth, Christians have a built in "faith filter" that weeds out annoying "reason". In fact, their faith is often times strengthened by opposing arguments. "Damn your facts. I have FAITH!", would be their motto. This is why I don't like debating Christians. To ME it is pointless. They want to believe, and so they do. (A la Kryten's tag line.) Only with a "Doubting Thomas" is there hope in discussing the errors of Christianity. Hopefully, GiantBear, you can plant some seeds of doubt that will grow into full fledged unbelief. (Oooooo! That sounds SO much like "evil atheist conspiracy" talk! Fuck 'em. It's the truth. If this frightens them, then they shouldn't talk to us, like their bible says.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 I don't know guys, I'm not sure you can't deconvert someone by using logic. I know what you're saying, but I think every person is different and will handle the information differently. Many continue to believe because they want to. But everyone is different... I deconverted after learning about the obvious contradictions in the bible, the dates of the NT books, the absurdity of sending everone to hell if they don't believe (including those who don't hear), and a few other logical arguments (that I discovered for myself). More specifically it was from reading Farrell Till's Skeptical Review articles and a multitude of things at religioustolerance.org. So it was logic and reason that made me give it up. I didn't want to, nor was I looking for something deeper or different. I just learned the truth. I don't see why that won't work on some other people-- at least the brighter ones. I think at least it plants seeds of reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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