my mind says can you prove it? damn it i cant.

[willybilly30]

I have loved studying religions and pondering god, the universe, spiritual questions ever since middle school that would be about 20 years if I figured it right. I mean I loved it thinking of whom god is, and reading different ideas exploring truths. Religions my biggest fascination.

 

But the more posts I read the more I see the words no proof of god and in my mind iv tried every way I can think of to prove their a god, prove any of my beliefs are correct

I can’t do it I cannot no matter how hard I try I cant answer this one question that comes up every time the question is can you prove it?

 

So should I just throw away my religious books I study and tell my mind to shut up and quit being fascinated by something I cant prove. I love studying religions and learning what people believe and learning from it but none of it can answer the nagging question.

 

Can you prove it? is a question nothing in my brain seems to be able to do. As bad as I wish it could.

 

i have all these thoughts and beleifs i could made my own religion if i wanted too and i practicly have.

but if i cant prove any of it it seems pointless.

 

should i just leave it all i cant decide.

[willybilly30]

i tried a simple test that failed.

 

i put my keys next to me.

 

i said god if your real and created the universe you can put them in my hand. put them in my hand prove to me your real.

 

nothing happened so i dont know what to think

[Dianka]

Willy, I did stuff like that when I was a kid. You realize really fast that either God is ignoring you or he doesn't exist. I would think that a God that punishes for <gasp> not believing in water walking, multiplying fish, and two by two of everything on a big diety-inspired boat would give people a sign if they ask for one. You can ask whether God is real or not. If you believe in God, then I guess you should be asking if he is a mind-fuck, flake, or an idiot.

[willybilly30]

I do not see why god would ignore my request. It would solve the worlds problems if god would prove itself. Would someone have a good reason to not let people know they exist?

[Taphophilia]

Willy,

 

I believe if there is a god then, as many people here say, it isn't going to be what we expect.

 

I consider myself agnostic because I am open to the possibility of their being a god even though no evidence exists for one. We don't know everything. For every question that science answers there are another gazillion (that's a technical term, lol) questions that are not answerable right now.

 

I believe that if their is a god or a soul then there would have to be other forms of reality that we are not aware of in our finite existance. God and soul are infinate but in our reality all is finite so in our reality there can be no god or soul.

 

We have three dimentions plus time, perhaps there are others in which god and soul can exist.

 

Taph

[willybilly30]

whats the three dimensions?

 

 

 

 

 

Willy,

 

I believe if there is a god then, as many people here say, it isn't going to be what we expect.

 

I consider myself agnostic because I am open to the possibility of their being a god even though no evidence exists for one. We don't know everything. For every question that science answers there are another gazillion (that's a technical term, lol) questions that are not answerable right now.

 

I believe that if their is a god or a soul then there would have to be other forms of reality that we are not aware of in our finite existance. God and soul are infinate but in our reality all is finite so in our reality there can be no god or soul.

 

We have three dimentions plus time, perhaps there are others in which god and soul can exist.

 

Taph

 

 

i thought of something. maybe god dont want to scare the shit out of me.

keys floating in the air toward me would scare the shit out of me i know it would.

[Taphophilia]

whats the three dimensions?

 

height - width - depth

[willybilly30]

Im so new to science stuff where I can I read more on this its very interesting.

[godlessgrrl]

I got some news for ya, WillyBilly...

 

There is no proof.

 

There is no proof that any deity exists, anywhere, or ever did. You can't demonstrate the existence of a deity the way you can a mathematical theorem, or the fact that the sun rose today. I have never met a theist of any stripe, myself included, that could ever demonstrate beyond any shadow of a doubt that there really is a deity of any kind, any stripe, any flavor, much less that said deity was a particular one.

 

Few theists are willing to admit this, that there isn't any proof. Few theists are willing to admit that they really can't prove that their deity exists; and yet when someone admits that it's all based on faith, they're telling the truth, though they may not consciously realize it.

 

I'm a marginal theist - I practice a form of reconstructed paganism. But I like to think I have enough sense to realize that it's all based simply on what makes me happy and content, psychologically. I might have some sort of weird personal intuition tell me that, say, the universe itself is an intelligent being; but there's a reason why, underneath it all, I remain an agnostic at heart. That's because I can't prove it. There isn't any proof. I might feel that Gaia is real, but could I prove it? No. Never. I can't ever know that there's a deity. Nobody can.

 

Shhh, don't tell anybody I let the secret out...

[willybilly30]

I love paganism I cannot prove any of it but it helps me out a lot of times meditation and ritual relieves stress and helps me explore my self and vent frustration.

My idea of god may or may not exist and may cannot lift keys up and put them in my hand

However, it is a good person to talk too so it helps me psychologically.

I think im agnostic too I know it cannot be proven or unproven.

I like that idea better than throwing my ideas away I would rather say who knows I may be right or wrong I hope im right.

[Taphophilia]

Willy,

 

Here is an easy to understand site. It has basic and advanced explanations and has each type of math explained and more.

 

The Official Super String Theory Website

[Ssel]

Can you prove it? is a question nothing in my brain seems to be able to do. As bad as I wish it could.

To prove anything, don't you first need to know exactly what it is that you're trying to prove?

 

What is a "god"? What or Who is "God"?

 

Without answering those first, I can see you going forever and not proving anything at all. On the other hand, get those answered and the proof isn't that far away.

[willybilly30]

i am not really shure. a being that created everything?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you prove it? is a question nothing in my brain seems to be able to do. As bad as I wish it could.

To prove anything, don't you first need to know exactly what it is that you're trying to prove?

 

What is a "god"? What or Who is "God"?

 

Without answering those first, I can see you going forever and not proving anything at all. On the other hand, get those answered and the proof isn't that far away.

[Ssel]

i am not really shure. a being that created everything?

That's a start, but now..

 

What qualifies something as being a "being"? (The dictionary might help a little)

[scitsofreaky]

I agree with Taph, if there is a God (which I believe, sort of) it wont in all likelyhood be anything like what most religions portray it as. BigGuyintheSky God just seems so illogical, especially one who gives a crap about what you or I want from Him.

I seriously doubt you will ever get empirical proof of any God, although you may (just don't expect us to believe you without proof). But if you are open to other kinds of evidence, you may be surprised what you find. Just don't expect to find a Sky Daddy.

[Ssel]

Just don't expect to find a Sky Daddy.

Agree

[Taphophilia]

Who is to say god is a being as we define it? Who is to say it's singular or plural? There are so many possibilities and I don't think we are at a level in terms of knowledge to even guess at the possibilities of what god could be. We don't know and we, at least in our life time, will never know.

 

A thousand years ago Algebra was cutting edge mathematics. Today it's the very first step. Those people who were discovering Algebra had no concept of quantam mechanics. I believe it's like that with god. In order for us to prove god's existance or non existance we would have to have a greater knowledge base than we have.

 

Taph

[willybilly30]

that is the problem i have when trying to define god. if i even made a guess at it it still would be a guess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Who is to say god is a being as we define it? Who is to say it's singular or plural? There are so many possibilities and I don't think we are at a level in terms of knowledge to even guess at the possibilities of what god could be. We don't know and we, at least in our life time, will never know.

 

A thousand years ago Algebra was cutting edge mathematics. Today it's the very first step. Those people who were discovering Algebra had no concept of quantam mechanics. I believe it's like that with god. In order for us to prove god's existance or non existance we would have to have a greater knowledge base than we have.

 

Taph

[spamandham]

But the more posts I read the more I see the words no proof of god and in my mind iv tried every way I can think of to prove their a god, prove any of my beliefs are correct

 

The first step in proving god is to define what is meant by 'god'. If you are like most, you do not have a meaningful concept of god from which to begin.

 

I can’t do it I cannot no matter how hard I try I cant answer this one question that comes up every time the question is can you prove it?

 

Most of the time, 'god' is defined with the express intent of being unprovable. You are going through what many of us here have gone through. Once you begin to hold 'god' to the same standards you do anything else, the deprogramming has begun. Your mind is already free! You just haven't realized it yet.

 

So should I just throw away my religious books I study and tell my mind to shut up and quit being fascinated by something I cant prove.

 

What you do with the books is up to you of course, but I would recommend NOT telling your mind to shut up. What's so wrong with forming a new perspective and simultaneously checking it to be sure it makes sense?

 

should i just leave it all i cant decide.

 

heh heh, yes you can, just not consciously.

 

The questions you are asking are proof that your subconscious has already decided for you, but is battling with your ego for acceptance. Your ego doesn't like the emotional consequences, but your subconscious concerns itself only with survival/reproductive consequences - AND ALWAYS WINS when it determines consequences are real. It will yield to the conscious when it can't determine if there are survival/reproductive benefits/threats.

[Ssel]

The following is an English acronym for the original Hebrew God that started all of this mess. Besides being the true creator of the universe, this God has the qualities of Anger, Jealousy, Love, Fatherliness, all-mightiness, speech, mind, and miracles. But despite all of those qualities, it is more of an “It” than a “He”. They spoke mostly of God being a “He” just to get the point across and bring the respect He requires of Man.

 

It has all of those human like qualities because of the manner in which It/He behaves. Don’t forget this fact.

 

This God has a finite set of truly Holy laws but for logically valid reasons, He leaves it up to Man to discover and prove them. The prophets of old all spoke of this same God and attempted with all they had to reveal these laws but as I’m currently pointing out on a different thread, they each failed. Jesus, by far, came the closest. They warned of consequences which they believed to be inevitable. Most of the things they said were basically true, if not totally.

 

This is a very true and real descriptive name of that Bible God which truly will always exist and will always affect every minute of your life. Every warning in the Bible and many other sources have been about this one and only real God. Ignore Him, and you will certainly die sooner than if you had paid attention to Him. Every prophet has attempted to understand this God and predict His actions.

 

Which warnings concerning this God you choose to attend to is up to you. You can learn of this God to a great degree on your own and surmise your own warnings if you wish, but realize that this God only has a certain degree of forgiveness. This degree is very dependant on who else is around at the time. This God balances the needs and concerns of ALL things and ALL people simultaneously so don’t expect special favors to be instantly granted just because you asked.

 

In addition, praying to this God ONLY works when you understand truly how to pray. Bowing your head and acting all reverent doesn’t impress this God generally. Telling this God of what you want doesn’t do much either but it helps you get your thoughts straight a bit. Calling Him by this name doesn’t do anything at all until you truly understand the meaning of this name. Carefully listening to and accepting this God is what brings His favor.

 

This God can and often does save your ass from things that are beyond your ability to cope. But this God is not generally pleased by those who do nothing but expect Him to save their ass. Often this God will destroy entire nations without explanation. He will allow mass murder and totally horrid crimes. He attends to those who attend to Him. He saves those who attend extremely well to Him. His forgiveness is by the minute, but His judgment is absolutely final.

 

The one thing this God wants from you is to learn of Him and never, ever allow your awareness of Him fade, but He insists that you learn of Him as well as you can without His help. This God favors and promotes the growth of true science. Ignore this God and He will waste your ass for no other apparent reason. Love this God and he will favor you but will still kill you for your imperfections. Gather into a group with many who attend to and love this God and He will favor each within the group even more and to the final point of allowing them to truly live eternally (immortally). Immortality can exist no other way.

 

You can not deceive this God by any means whatsoever, but He favors those who manage their secrets properly.

 

There is something called “Heaven” and “Hell”. This God allows for Man to decide which will be his destiny. But this God allows only those who truly attend to and love Him reside in what is called “Heaven”. This God created your “soul” but leaves it to you to discover it and manage it. This God leaves it up to Man to discover the true Heaven and to learn how to stay in it.

 

If all life was to suddenly ignore this God, He would extinguish it without hesitation. This God created all Good and Evil, but realize that “evil” is a matter of perspective and from God’s perspective, there is no evil.

 

This God is beyond any use in judging. Hate this God and things only get worse. He only answers to those who answer to Him. This God is never touched nor damaged in any way by those who judge His actions. Ignoring Him is very much like ignoring a hurricane. This God can never, ever be destroyed, only understood or misunderstood. He favors those who understand Him more and disfavors those who understand Him less.

 

Fearing this God is only wise for the very young of mind. Being leery of this God is wisdom. Loving this God is absolutely the only means to Heaven and immortality. Be humble to this God and you will prosper more than you would have otherwise, but it is always up to you to qualify for any guarantee. Be prideful and ignore this God and you will be the very definition of a fool. This God does not favor lust in any form.

 

This is the true God of Moses. This is the God that destroyed Sodom, Gomorra, Babylonia, Egypt, Rome, and all others. This is the God that created the very first Man and created that Man to function in a similar way as Himself. This God is truly the one God that started the entire concern for “God” and all related religions. He is the one and ONLY real God there has ever been. This is the God that Jesus told you to love with everything you can muster up.

 

-----.

 

Does this sound like the Bible God to you? If you truly examine what I have said here and agree that it does indeed sound like the “Bible God”, then I will translate the acronym.

 

You are not likely to ever forget this name and it can be taken to the highest mountain of wisdom ever formed and will never fail you. Science is soon to receive a much more scientifically meaningful name, but this name will still always be exactly accurate (in English).

 

After it is translated, replace every use of the word “God” or “Lord” or any of the other names given to the Bible God with the acronym, read the passages again, and you will see the truth of it with possibly only one question remaining – “why did they do this?” I will answer that too if you ask.

 

An acronym for God’s true descriptive name in English is - AOTSOT-TIDU

[willybilly30]

i used to have a definition of god but after this discussion i found out my definiton was wrong.

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=5018&st=30

thats when i figured out i had no proof of anything.

i would like to beleive their is a god but it is hard to find a definiton for god what would be a good place to start?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But the more posts I read the more I see the words no proof of god and in my mind iv tried every way I can think of to prove their a god, prove any of my beliefs are correct

 

The first step in proving god is to define what is meant by 'god'. If you are like most, you do not have a meaningful concept of god from which to begin.

 

I can’t do it I cannot no matter how hard I try I cant answer this one question that comes up every time the question is can you prove it?

 

Most of the time, 'god' is defined with the express intent of being unprovable. You are going through what many of us here have gone through. Once you begin to hold 'god' to the same standards you do anything else, the deprogramming has begun. Your mind is already free! You just haven't realized it yet.

 

So should I just throw away my religious books I study and tell my mind to shut up and quit being fascinated by something I cant prove.

 

What you do with the books is up to you of course, but I would recommend NOT telling your mind to shut up. What's so wrong with forming a new perspective and simultaneously checking it to be sure it makes sense?

 

should i just leave it all i cant decide.

 

heh heh, yes you can, just not consciously.

 

The questions you are asking are proof that your subconscious has already decided for you, but is battling with your ego for acceptance. Your ego doesn't like the emotional consequences, but your subconscious concerns itself only with survival/reproductive consequences - AND ALWAYS WINS when it determines consequences are real. It will yield to the conscious when it can't determine if there are survival/reproductive benefits/threats.

 

 

how do you know you got the correct idea? are you sure you are right? with all the millions of religions in the world how do you know you picked out the right one? i dont really like the bibles idea of god no offense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The following is an English acronym for the original Hebrew God that started all of this mess. Besides being the true creator of the universe, this God has the qualities of Anger, Jealousy, Love, Fatherliness, all-mightiness, speech, mind, and miracles. But despite all of those qualities, it is more of an “It” than a “He”. They spoke mostly of God being a “He” just to get the point across and bring the respect He requires of Man.

 

It has all of those human like qualities because of the manner in which It/He behaves. Don’t forget this fact.

 

This God has a finite set of truly Holy laws but for logically valid reasons, He leaves it up to Man to discover and prove them. The prophets of old all spoke of this same God and attempted with all they had to reveal these laws but as I’m currently pointing out on a different thread, they each failed. Jesus, by far, came the closest. They warned of consequences which they believed to be inevitable. Most of the things they said were basically true, if not totally.

 

This is a very true and real descriptive name of that Bible God which truly will always exist and will always affect every minute of your life. Every warning in the Bible and many other sources have been about this one and only real God. Ignore Him, and you will certainly die sooner than if you had paid attention to Him. Every prophet has attempted to understand this God and predict His actions.

 

Which warnings concerning this God you choose to attend to is up to you. You can learn of this God to a great degree on your own and surmise your own warnings if you wish, but realize that this God only has a certain degree of forgiveness. This degree is very dependant on who else is around at the time. This God balances the needs and concerns of ALL things and ALL people simultaneously so don’t expect special favors to be instantly granted just because you asked.

 

In addition, praying to this God ONLY works when you understand truly how to pray. Bowing your head and acting all reverent doesn’t impress this God generally. Telling this God of what you want doesn’t do much either but it helps you get your thoughts straight a bit. Calling Him by this name doesn’t do anything at all until you truly understand the meaning of this name. Carefully listening to and accepting this God is what brings His favor.

 

This God can and often does save your ass from things that are beyond your ability to cope. But this God is not generally pleased by those who do nothing but expect Him to save their ass. Often this God will destroy entire nations without explanation. He will allow mass murder and totally horrid crimes. He attends to those who attend to Him. He saves those who attend extremely well to Him. His forgiveness is by the minute, but His judgment is absolutely final.

 

The one thing this God wants from you is to learn of Him and never, ever allow your awareness of Him fade, but He insists that you learn of Him as well as you can without His help. This God favors and promotes the growth of true science. Ignore this God and He will waste your ass for no other apparent reason. Love this God and he will favor you but will still kill you for your imperfections. Gather into a group with many who attend to and love this God and He will favor each within the group even more and to the final point of allowing them to truly live eternally (immortally). Immortality can exist no other way.

 

You can not deceive this God by any means whatsoever, but He favors those who manage their secrets properly.

 

There is something called “Heaven” and “Hell”. This God allows for Man to decide which will be his destiny. But this God allows only those who truly attend to and love Him reside in what is called “Heaven”. This God created your “soul” but leaves it to you to discover it and manage it. This God leaves it up to Man to discover the true Heaven and to learn how to stay in it.

 

If all life was to suddenly ignore this God, He would extinguish it without hesitation. This God created all Good and Evil, but realize that “evil” is a matter of perspective and from God’s perspective, there is no evil.

 

This God is beyond any use in judging. Hate this God and things only get worse. He only answers to those who answer to Him. This God is never touched nor damaged in any way by those who judge His actions. Ignoring Him is very much like ignoring a hurricane. This God can never, ever be destroyed, only understood or misunderstood. He favors those who understand Him more and disfavors those who understand Him less.

 

Fearing this God is only wise for the very young of mind. Being leery of this God is wisdom. Loving this God is absolutely the only means to Heaven and immortality. Be humble to this God and you will prosper more than you would have otherwise, but it is always up to you to qualify for any guarantee. Be prideful and ignore this God and you will be the very definition of a fool. This God does not favor lust in any form.

 

This is the true God of Moses. This is the God that destroyed Sodom, Gomorra, Babylonia, Egypt, Rome, and all others. This is the God that created the very first Man and created that Man to function in a similar way as Himself. This God is truly the one God that started the entire concern for “God” and all related religions. He is the one and ONLY real God there has ever been. This is the God that Jesus told you to love with everything you can muster up.

 

-----.

 

Does this sound like the Bible God to you? If you truly examine what I have said here and agree that it does indeed sound like the “Bible God”, then I will translate the acronym.

 

You are not likely to ever forget this name and it can be taken to the highest mountain of wisdom ever formed and will never fail you. Science is soon to receive a much more scientifically meaningful name, but this name will still always be exactly accurate (in English).

 

After it is translated, replace every use of the word “God” or “Lord” or any of the other names given to the Bible God with the acronym, read the passages again, and you will see the truth of it with possibly only one question remaining – “why did they do this?” I will answer that too if you ask.

 

An acronym for God’s true descriptive name in English is - AOTSOT-TIDU

[Jose]

If there is a god, I imagine it as something like the giant computer in Rama Revealed trying to mathmatically perfect the universe by adding in variables until it gets it right.

 

It wouldn't be anything even remotely knowledgeable about my individual desires or problems, or even know that mankind exists until shown specimens, but still an entity vastly more intelligent and powerful than myself.

 

Of course, this mode of thinking precludes an afterlife, so it's not very comforting.

 

I think that's why Deism never caught on.

[willybilly30]

it is so hard to define or prove something you cant see, hear, touch or taste. all you got is hear say or your own ideas. i dont really see how god can be watching us all and being personally involved. earth is full of people and full of life and theirs probally a billion earths in the universe like it. god would have to spend all his time reading everyones mind. winch is impossible and would in about maybe a week get extreamly boring.

[Amethyst]

I agree with Taph, if there is a God (which I believe, sort of) it wont in all likelyhood be anything like what most religions portray it as.

 

Totally agree. I like the Star Wars "Force" idea, which Lucas got from Eastern mysticism. But there's no conclusive evidence of anything like that yet.

[Skankboy]

Just so you know WB, you can study and be fascinated by religion and have no belief in a higher power what-so-ever. I myself have a degree in history w/a concentration on comparative religion/philosophy. So I certainly share your passion in that regard.

 

Since the dawn of time man had tried to understand the world around him. In the beginning, there was no differnce between science, religion and magic. All three are attempts by a species of pattern recognition machines to try and make "sense" (ie see the pattern) of a universe that has none or else is so complicated we never "see" it all.

 

Personally, I don't believe in the "supernatural" in any way, shape or form. But religion and the way it effects/has been effected by human culture is well worth investigating by anyone intersted in the human condition.

 

My advise to you is continue your studys and try not to get too hung up on the descriptions of the supernatural. Embrace the metaphor, not the metaphysics...