"Why Christians Just Don't Get It"

[Checkmate]

This article can be found at members.aol.com/bbu84/biblicalstupidity/faith.htm#3

(Bold hi-lites added by me.)

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Hebrews 11:1

"After Jesus Christ we have no need of speculation, after the Gospels we have no need of research. When we come to believe, we have no desire to believe anything else; for we begin by believing that there is nothing else with which we have to believe.... My first principle is this. Christ laid down one definite system of truth which the world must believe without qualification."

"I believe because it is impossible."

Church Father Tertullian (160-220?)

 

After reading the Bible, many people are mystified as to why grown, otherwise intelligent adults would believe that it is the direct communication or the "inspired Word" of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good being. To many people, it seems absolutely incredible that any reasonable person could maintain this belief in the face of our current scientific knowledge and the contemporary understanding of history, religion and mythology. To outsiders, the phenomenon of Christian belief is a puzzlement.

 

However, after a bit of research and reflection, the mystery is resolved. It soon becomes apparent that the whole bizarre Christian belief system is predicated, to a large degree, on two compelling ideas. The first idea is that maintaining faith in Bible claims is the most morally virtuous act one can perform and will be rewarded with an eternal life of bliss. The second belief is that doubting biblical claims represents the greatest evil imaginable and will be punished with an eternity of torture. These linchpin beliefs make it possible for Christians to accept thoroughly ridiculous biblical assertions not merely in the absence of evidence, but against the evidence-against reason.

 

The sanctification of "faith" and demonization of doubt short-circuits the thinking process. Since it is continually drilled into Christians' brains that faith must be maintained at all costs, anything which contradicts a Bible claim is automatically rationalized away as the arrogance of the "wise," as a ploy of Satan, or as a test of faith from God himself.

 

So when it is explained and demonstrated to a Christian that the Bible is simply a collection of ancient writings masquerading as the "Word of God," this is dismissed as the delusion of unbelievers blinded by their sin. (See the wisdom of the world) When scientific discoveries are shown to clearly, directly and unambiguously contradict biblical pronouncements, these scientific discoveries are interpreted by the Christian as satanic trickery. If it is patiently and painstakingly evinced to the Christian that the Bible is filled from one end to the other with obscene cruelty and violence, pagan mythology and superstition, blatant contradictions, ludicrous claims and out and out stupidity, the Christian smiles in the face of this, confident that his faith is being tested by God, and that he will be rewarded accordingly in the Age To Come.

 

It must be understood that in the Alice-in-Wonderland Christian world view, the more difficult it is to believe in a biblical claim, the more one is glorified for believing it. Faith, believing no matter what the facts say, is the highest manifestation of moral righteousness. Developing and maintaining one's faith in the preposterous and the incomprehensible becomes the ultimate purpose of life. Tertullian's declaration, "I believe because it is impossible," is the boast of a man who celebrates his irrationality.

 

While liberal Christians today may pay lip service to the notion of a reasonable faith, the sentiment of Tertullin's inane "I believe because it is impossible" is alive and well and continues to be spouted from church pulpits every Sunday morning: "Brethren, did not Paul say that God will make foolish the wisdom of the world, and choose that which is foolish to shame the wise of the world? Brothers and Sisters, did not JEEEZ-ZUSS tell us that unless we become as little children we will never enter the kingdom of heaven, that God has chosen to hide his light from the eyes of the wise and reveal himself to babes?" Reason and knowledge are ridiculed while biblical absurdities are held aloft as bless-ed revelation. This is how Christianity sustains itself. It is the only way that it can.

 

Thus the Christian faith's invisible attributes are now clearly to be seen. Behind all the sacraments and the rituals, the organ music and the angelic choirs, the praying lips and the arms thrust heavenward, the echoing preachments and the soaring cathedrals, behind all this, propping it all up, is the monstrous doctrine that gullibility and ignorance are divine. It is what makes everything else in the religion possible, be it a three-equals-one god, a talking jackass, a worldwide flood, water-walking, resurrections or, even, weekly church collections.

 

Please don't try to explain all this to a Christian though, for it has been most assuredly foretold that he would be mocked and persecuted for Jesus' sake by the wise of a fallen, perishing world. Yea, lo, verily, for it has been written...

Do you see it now? No matter how much intelligent ammunition the unbeliever brings to bear against the Bible-believing, faith/Spirit-filled Christian, the Christian WON'T LISTEN! They can't afford to listen or be swayed from their faith-moorings. They are THE MOST closed-minded people on the PLANET! And they take pride in being shut off to all outside influences and thinking.

 

Thus, WE get frustrated in trying to be reasonable with them.

 

And once we get fed up with this fruitless exercise, we either quit talking to the Christian or we resort to flame fests out of frustration.

 

Y'see, we're not "evil" people. We just get fed up with dealing with stupidity. That's all.

 

So, Dear Christian visitors,

 

If this close-minded, zombie "faith walk" is ALL you have to bring to the discussion table, then I strongly suggest that you keep on walking. Your idiotic presence isn't welcome, and you'll only get your feelings hurt. You are members and representatives of a brain dead, death cult. We are THINKING people who have either escaped your cult, or we've never been a part of it. And NONE of us want anything to do with it. You will NEVER convince any of us to sabotage our reason, to exchange it for your blind and foolish faith in the Invisible Sky "God". Go sell your wares to a mental patient, or any other deluded creature. We are NOT in the market.

 

Sincerely, and with as little malice as I can muster,

 

Mr. Grinch

 

 

 

Hyperlink edited by request of Mr. Grinch. -Reach

[Ssel]

Very well said, Mr Grinch.

 

My only hope is that the "We are thinking people" will get better and better, rather than turn into merely another childish hate fest.

 

 

================================

Btw, MERRY CHRISTMAS...

[Checkmate]

================================

Btw, MERRY CHRISTMAS...

Bah Humbug!

[Mythra]

Good article and post, Grinchie.

 

MERRY MITHRAS TO ALL.

[Checkmate]

Good article and post, Grinchie.

 

MERRY MITHRAS TO ALL.

Thanks and a Happy Saturnalia to you!

 

 

The most maddening thing about Christians is that they are fully capable of utilizing reason and rational thinking to debunk, dismiss and disprove all OTHER religions. And yet when it comes to their OWN religion, they suddenly become lobotomy patients.

 

Christians are notorious when it comes to dismantling the “cults”. They use logic and reason like skilled surgeons wielding a laser scalpel against a cancerous growth.

 

Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Moonies and (ironically) Roman Catholics haven’t got a prayer of withstanding the onslaught of Protestant/Baptist Christian logic. Feel the wrath of Reason!

 

But when it comes time to use these SAME logic skills and apply their use against Protestant/Baptist Christianity…? All of a sudden “reason and logic have no place in evaluating religion!”

 

WTF?!?

 

It boogles the mind how Christians can be rational when it comes to rejecting all OTHER religions, but then they conveniently turn off their brains when it comes to examining THEIR beliefs.

 

I find it especially disingenuous when Protestants, Presbyterians and Baptists can LOGICALLY and CRITICALLY examine and reject the Roman Catholic Church, even calling the RCC a “cult”, but they can’t seem to make the connection that concludes that ALL of them must therefore be cults! What an amazing feat of compartmentalization.

 

Christians. Without a doubt the Craziest People to ever exist outside of an insane asylum.

 

(OK. I think I'm done venting now. )

[Ssel]

The most maddening thing about Christians is that they are fully capable of utilizing reason and rational thinking to debunk, dismiss and disprove all OTHER religions. And yet when it comes to their OWN religion, they suddenly become lobotomy patients.

My problem is that I see just about EVERY one doing that same thing. Not merely religions, but all of the anti-religions, governments, activist groups, you name it.

 

How many people really, really are willing to seriously examine the purity of theirown thoughts and motives?

 

=============================

and MERRY CHRISTMAS CHRISTMAS CHRISTMAS

 

(not to be narrow minded, of course)

[Checkmate]

My problem is that I see just about EVERY one doing that same thing. Not merely religions, but all of the anti-religions, governments, activist groups, you name it.

 

How many people really, really are willing to seriously examine the purity of their own thoughts and motives?

................

I think that I can safely speak for ALL the non-Christian members of this forum when I say that WE all seriously examine(d) our thoughts and motives. We did it before and we do it continuously. Many of my own pet beliefs have been challenged and I have changed my mind when I have been PROVEN to be mistaken.

 

In the immortal words of Mr. Spock, "I have no ego to bruise."

 

We are NOT as "close minded" as you seem to be suggesting. IF you can reasonably and sufficiently PROVE "God" or "Jesus Christ" to me, then I'll admit that I'm wrong and I'll believe.

 

The problem is, you CAN'T get a Christian to make this same concession. No matter WHAT you say to them, they WON'T be convinced. Christians are illogical.

[AndreasBolle]

We are NOT as "close minded" as you seem to be suggesting. IF you can reasonably and sufficiently PROVE "God" or "Jesus Christ" to me, then I'll admit that I'm wrong and I'll believe.

With me, if proven...

I neither love nor hate the God of Abraham; he is simply there, as the gods of any other religion I don't follow are there. Existence does not obligate me to love or worship a being who isn't part of my religion--period.

[Toxic]

Good article and post, Grinchie.

 

MERRY MITHRAS TO ALL.

Thanks and a Happy Saturnalia to you!

 

 

The most maddening thing about Christians is that they are fully capable of utilizing reason and rational thinking to debunk, dismiss and disprove all OTHER religions. And yet when it comes to their OWN religion, they suddenly become lobotomy patients.

 

Christians are notorious when it comes to dismantling the “cults”. They use logic and reason like skilled surgeons wielding a laser scalpel against a cancerous growth.

 

Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Moonies and (ironically) Roman Catholics haven’t got a prayer of withstanding the onslaught of Protestant/Baptist Christian logic. Feel the wrath of Reason!

 

There's a book called "Cults - the secret sects that rule our lives" (sorry, I can't remember the name of the author) that is a prime example of this. Has anyone else read it?

[All Gods Fail]

Great post, Grinch! Now, get after those sappy Whoville dopes and ruin their Xmas!

 

BTW, should we feel sorry for the xians who are trapped in that push-me/pull-you mode of thinking? After all, we were all once caught in that same trap.

 

On the other hand, they're a lot like alcoholics who refuse to admit they have a problem, so it doesn't do to coddle them.

[Antlerman]

The most maddening thing about Christians is that they are fully capable of utilizing reason and rational thinking to debunk, dismiss and disprove all OTHER religions. And yet when it comes to their OWN religion, they suddenly become lobotomy patients.

 

Christians are notorious when it comes to dismantling the “cults”. They use logic and reason like skilled surgeons wielding a laser scalpel against a cancerous growth.

 

Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Moonies and (ironically) Roman Catholics haven’t got a prayer of withstanding the onslaught of Protestant/Baptist Christian logic. Feel the wrath of Reason!

 

But when it comes time to use these SAME logic skills and apply their use against Protestant/Baptist Christianity…? All of a sudden “reason and logic have no place in evaluating religion!”

 

WTF?!?

I think the core of the schizophrenic mindset is their belief that mythology is real history. It they were to accept their "interpretation" is just a different flavor of the same dish that they prefer, then criticizing some else's beef dish with different spices is absurdity. It's still beef. It's still mythology. But no, they make the fatal mistake of approaching it as real history, where rationality would be appropriate. Square peg; round hole.

 

Merry Mythologies to One and All!

 

Antlerman

[Asimov]

I think that I can safely speak for ALL the non-Christian members of this forum when I say that WE all seriously examine(d) our thoughts and motives. We did it before and we do it continuously. Many of my own pet beliefs have been challenged and I have changed my mind when I have been PROVEN to be mistaken.

 

In the immortal words of Mr. Spock, "I have no ego to bruise."

 

We are NOT as "close minded" as you seem to be suggesting. IF you can reasonably and sufficiently PROVE "God" or "Jesus Christ" to me, then I'll admit that I'm wrong and I'll believe.

 

The problem is, you CAN'T get a Christian to make this same concession. No matter WHAT you say to them, they WON'T be convinced. Christians are illogical.

 

I agree, while I've remained an atheist for as long as I've been able to make any kind of definitive statement regarding my beliefs, I have changed and evolved according to that which I now know. The more information I take in, the more I adapt and change my beliefs. Pinning what I really am in regards to beliefs is difficult, because I don't adhere to one set idea or doctrine or belief or whatever.

[Lycorth]

Grinch, great post - I love that. That shall be referenced often as it really blows a hole in the Xian boat.

[Antlerman]

The only people who should go to hell are spammers.

 

P.S. No, I did not click on any of spammer "Guests" links. It was too obvious.

[Checkmate]

Why is MY thread the only one being spammed? And why have all our resident Christians ignored this thread? Cat got your tongue? Have I made TOO much sense? Is spamming the only ammunition you have to offer in a talk with unbelievers?

 

Probably so. Intelligently acknowledging my thread WOULD endanger your faith. You're better off "spamming" and running.

[Amethyst]

The most maddening thing about Christians is that they are fully capable of utilizing reason and rational thinking to debunk, dismiss and disprove all OTHER religions. And yet when it comes to their OWN religion, they suddenly become lobotomy patients.

 

Christians are notorious when it comes to dismantling the “cults”. They use logic and reason like skilled surgeons wielding a laser scalpel against a cancerous growth.

 

Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Moonies and (ironically) Roman Catholics haven’t got a prayer of withstanding the onslaught of Protestant/Baptist Christian logic. Feel the wrath of Reason!

 

But when it comes time to use these SAME logic skills and apply their use against Protestant/Baptist Christianity…? All of a sudden “reason and logic have no place in evaluating religion!”

 

 

Yeah. And those of us who think logically and rationally are dismissed, ignored, and/or treated like dirt (or worse). I think it's because they are afraid to examine their own religion. Their worst fear, deep down, is probably that we might be right and they might have wasted their lives in a cult. But most will never admit this to themselves or anyone else, because to do so means admitting that they might just be wrong after all.

 

Spam? I missed spam? Somehow, I'm not surprised. What was it for? Rolex fakes, Viagra, weight loss products, Nigeria scams, or what?

[Checkmate]

.................

Spam? I missed spam? Somehow, I'm not surprised. What was it for? Rolex fakes, Viagra, weight loss products, Nigeria scams, or what?

All of that and more. Nivek says it's a "spam-bot", automatically zapping us with drivel. When it shows up, the mods have to waste time cleaning up the thread. That's why you don't see anything right now.

[Loren]

Why is MY thread the only one being spammed?

Because you're a sinner!!!

 

 

It would be kind of nice if we could send a virus to fry their hard drive. Purely in the love of the Lord, of course.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Folks,

 

Gonna lock this topic-thread for a day or so and see if the spambot finds other opportunities elsewhere to spread its message.

 

Please note, there is nothing but SPAM in this thread that is causing the lock, will open back up when we have things slowed to a dull roar..

 

Thanks for your patience.

 

kevinL

[Reach]

Gonna lock this topic-thread for a day or so and see if the spambot finds other opportunities elsewhere to spread its message.

We wait with bated breath.

 

We've deleted a total of 46 posts from this thread, about 1/2 spam and 1/2 comments regarding spam.

 

I would suggest that when this thread is reopened, people simply IGNORE the spam and the mods will continue to delete it as it shows up.

 

I edited the hyperlink in the opening post.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Damn fine topic indeed.. hate to close it due to some fool's bot playing games..

 

Opened back up, let the posting continue!

 

kL

[Amethyst]

These are what I refer to as "failsafes" or "mind-traps". Christianity has set up alot of them. They keep the person spinning back into belief. If one continues to play by the "christian mindset" rules, there is no way out of the religion- like a maze with no exits. The only way out is to get up the courage to defy one of the mindtraps.

 

Exactly. It's a system of trickery designed to keep people in the cult. Whoever invented it was really ingeneous, although more like an evil genius.

 

I like the rat in a maze analogy -- very apt.

[Bluesman]

The second belief is that doubting biblical claims represents the greatest evil imaginable and will be punished with an eternity of torture.

 

This is it in a nutshell, at least for me, Fear!! fear of eternal damnation in the terrable lake of fire. I remember being a young child and hearing sermans about how awefull Hell is. And that fear "kept me in line" for many years. Even when I would doubt, and logic and common sense would poke through, the fear of Hellfire pushed them back down. IMO, fear is the largest stumbling block for people trying to come out of the Xian cult.

[Ssel]

Mr Grinch,

 

First, I agreed with your first post, pretty much. It tells a significant explanation although not the entire story.

 

But do you agree that to a large degree, those SCC do not see themselves as non-thinking people? They believe that maintaining faith is the smart thing to do. I'm not arguing the truth of this, but is it agreed that they mostly do not see themselves of irrational, non-thinking people?

[Ssel]

Other than merely agreeing that such a formula is being used, perhaps it is worth examining how such a formula can be "fixed"

 

In examining the formula, one of the significant elements is the use of fear, a fear of not complying. So to discuss fear, what it is, its effects, and sources...

 

Fear

 

Fear is a feeling triggered by a sensed extreme urgency. The sense of the urgency can either be perceived or medically induced. In either case, the mind then attempts to figure out what to do and quickly. The result of the mind’s attempt to quickly resolve a response leads to only certain general options.

 

Common psychology tells that the responses to fear are either fight or flight. I assert that this is a little too simple minded. There are 2 other responses which also might occur. These are depression or acceptance.

 

The responses to fear

 

1) Fight

2) Flight

3) Depression

4) Acceptance

 

No matter which of these options is taken, the feeling of fear is somewhat masked by the feeling associated with the response.

 

1) Fight – a feeling of anger or urgent attack

2) Flight – a feeling of urgent escape

3) Depression – a feeling of hopeless entrapment

4) Acceptance – a feeling of safety for complying

 

Since the 1970's all of these symptoms have been very prevalent in the USA.

 

When the “Hell and Damnation” preacher uses fear he has a one out of 4 probability of attaining what he desires. Any of the other 3 possibilities resolves to a probable loss of a member.

 

In the Walt Disney film “Monsters, Inc.” a cartoon allegory is presented which depicts fear being used to create social energy. The conspiring mastermind, “Mr. Waternews” (remembering the universal translation for “water”), orchestrates a system of scary monsters to appear in children’s bedrooms at night.

 

They, then collect and store the energy that the frightened child generates. Through a mishap scenario of events, the hero discovers that even more energy can be created by laughter. In the end, the wicked conspirators are defeated and replaced by laughter trained monsters.

 

Terrorists use fear in a more obvious way. They simply say to the government, “Do what we ask or we will disrupt your population with panic.”

 

I have a DVD where, in the menu background music, if you listen very calmly, you can hear the subliminal words “The world is falling apart, there is no escape.” These words are masked by the sound of water drops and bubbling. This is a type of hypnosis so as to inject the sense of general fear without the conscious being aware.

 

When hypnosis or medications are used to cause a sense of panic or fear, the mind has a hard time locating any threat, but this doesn’t stop it from looking for one and speculating. The mind has little choice but to speculate from what it can see around it and become irrationally concerned that this or that is unacceptable. Sometimes this is the spouse which then leads to divorce or a child or parent leading to a hostile family environment.

 

No matter which method is used to cause the fear, hyper-concern is the result –emotionalism. Extreme behaviors result which become very demanding on others around. The others then have a more justified concern for their well being because they become oppressed into either bowing to the extreme emotionalism or taking the time and trouble to deal with it by other means.

 

No matter what the cause or who the instigator might be, two-thirds of the responses lead to chaos and conflict. So the question becomes, “How does any organization wanting a high membership fit into this scheme?”

 

The final effect of fear mongering is that of dispersion and conflict. Any organization becomes threatened by the unsettled and hyper membership. Thus any church is far more likely to lose than gain from such a tactic.

 

But there is one organization that does gain. And that is the organization which is not subjected to the fear stimulus and can tax the extra conflicts and activity.

 

Conflict means lawyers, moving expenses, repurchases from broken homes, restarts of lives, replacement of broken appliances, and possibly medical bills.

 

Churches do not tax any of these things nor do they gain from any of them. The people involved run out of money so the churches get less donations. The people do not see how the churches are resolving the situation in their lives and thus are tempted to doubt the church’s worthiness.

 

Rational thought becomes hopeless as the mind will not settle before it jumps to conclusions and rushes to defend issues which it actually had no real need to defend in any panic manner.

 

Churches lose, thinkers lose, organizations such as common businesses lose except by selling more products assuming they survive long enough from the employees being hyper-sensitive.

 

So first, who wins? But more importantly, how do you get such a strong grasp on logical and rational thinking that such fear tactics will have very little effect?

 

In short, how do you fix it?