What Was The Sacrifice?

[RHEMtron]

been debating with this guy paul on several threads. he actually seems cool, but it's weird cause i actually feel sorry for him... i try my best not to call him stupid haha.

 

http://www.interfaithforums.com/showthread.php?t=458&page=2

 

it's been a while since ive actually tried to debate someone on a forum... on my own. it's kinda lengthy, but you guys think i missed any points, was out of line anywhere, or is there anything i can add? thanks.

 

-rhem

[Antlerman]

been debating with this guy paul on several threads. he actually seems cool, but it's weird cause i actually feel sorry for him... i try my best not to call him stupid haha.

 

http://www.interfaithforums.com/showthread.php?t=458&page=2

 

it's been a while since ive actually tried to debate someone on a forum... on my own. it's kinda lengthy, but you guys think i missed any points, was out of line anywhere, or is there anything i can add? thanks.

 

-rhem

I think your logic is good and you are keeping him to the points well. The only thing that stood out to me that seemed better to avoid saying was the last sentence of your first post;

 

the stories and myths of jesus [birth, miracles, resurrection, etc.] is not original to christianity. one only has to look up jesus somewhere like wikipedia to see that the myths are parallel, and if not, come from other pagan beliefs. the whole story i mention up above is absurd as one can see. once cant deny what i said because all of it is true.

Actually many do deny the myth parallels because they are legitimately debatable on many parallels that are brought up, like the Horus/Jesus parallels made popular by Gerald Massey. Be careful to speak of "the truth" when it comes to things of history. At best you can have high degrees of probability, but never absolute fact. No credible historian speaks in absolutes about history.

 

I prefer to use a tactic that shows there are lots of other reasonable ways to look at things, not this is right and this that is wrong. Once that's established, their preaching "the truth", seems a lot less certain and a lot less meaningful as far as expecting everyone to see things the same way or fry in hell.

[RHEMtron]

agreed.... i think that's why i tried my best to stick to debating using scripture, rather than using historical data. gracias mi amigo.

[Amanda]

been debating with this guy paul on several threads. he actually seems cool, but it's weird cause i actually feel sorry for him... i try my best not to call him stupid haha.

 

http://www.interfaithforums.com/showthread.php?t=458&page=2

 

it's been a while since ive actually tried to debate someone on a forum... on my own. it's kinda lengthy, but you guys think i missed any points, was out of line anywhere, or is there anything i can add? thanks.

 

-rhem

 

Rhem, hopefully I'm not playing the devil's advocate here. I certainly had no idea of the degree of mythological influence on these biblical stories till I came here. Yes, there seems to be no solid proof that a Jesus character ever existed, although I think he probably did... yet without any magic or such. Just a great social revolutionary sage that got passed down through history much the same way St. Nicholas did to Santa Claus, only worse. However, it seems to me that the sacrifice is the most misunderstood event/story/fable/whatever of these whole teachings! IMHO, it is the principle/moral of this story that is important.

 

Heaven and hell are only states of mind, IMO. The sacrifice was to stand up for what is right, the respect of ALL mankind as being EQUAL! No matter what the price, this is very important for world peace. There are principles to abide by, as to have the best frame of mind as possible, heaven/nirvana... even through an unjustified crucifiction these principles do not change. It is the understanding that ALL men must be forgiven, because they do not know what they are doing when they do bad things to us. All these things are done due to the bad things done to them, and they harbor them without understanding/forgiveness. EVERYONE is doing the best then know how to do! A concept known as 'grace'. No matter what the sin, grace abounds even more. How can we condemn people for not doing better than their best? We can forgive AND still hold them accountable and responsible for the decisions/behavior they make... without condoning ANY of it! Forgiveness is for US, NOT the perpetrator... so that we can avoid being like our perpetrator. This principle, grace, saves man from condemnation.... sees his perpetrator as the victim, releasing himself as the victim. This forgiveness concept, by grace, can be a very liberating concept internally.

 

IMO, what literalist have done is screw up this story completely. Fundamentalism promotes fear and captivity of the mind. They have taken the sacrifice as a way of making people feel guilty and indebted to follow their own agenda. If you can manage to sway ANYONE out of this mindset... you've done them a great service. This story/event/fable/whatever can only help you if you accept it's principles now, while you're alive, and it helps you understand your 'enemies' in a new light and without effecting you negatively now. It is NOT a place you get your reward after you die, for accepting something you are coerced to believe, IMHO. Please, where's the logic to that...

[RHEMtron]

However, it seems to me that the sacrifice is the most misunderstood event/story/fable/whatever of these whole teachings! IMHO, it is the principle/moral of this story that is important.

 

no doubt! people should pay more attention to the moral of the story: learn to forgive, strive to becoming a better person. the purpose is not: believe jesus lived, is the begotten son of god, and as a reward youll go to heaven.

 

This story/event/fable/whatever can only help you if you accept it's principles now, while you're alive, and it helps you understand your 'enemies' in a new light and without effecting you negatively now. It is NOT a place you get your reward after you die, for accepting something you are coerced to believe, IMHO. Please, where's the logic to that...

 

my girlfriend is hardcore christian. ive expressed to her a couple of times that very point. i told her that my actions in life are done because they are, what i personally feel, the right actions to take. you shouldnt do good acts because of fear of going to hell, or wanting to be rewarded after death, or because that's what the bible says to do.

 

everytime we speak of this subject matter, im reminded of a parable :

"you better watch out. you better not cry. you better not pout, im telling you why. santa claus is coming, to town. he know when you are sleeping. he knows when youre awake. he knows if youve been bad or good, so BE GOOD FOR GOODNESS SAKE."

 

if there is a god, and he's even remotely close to being the loving, foregiving god in the NT, i'd think he would be more like santa.

[Amanda]

my girlfriend is hardcore christian.

 

Rhem... I suppose you mean she is fundamentalist. It's funny, but I didn't understand fundamentalism till I came here.

 

I have a good friend who is also fundamentalist. It saddens me to see how her beliefs have restricted her life and caused so many relationship problems for her. *sigh* Good luck to you with your girlfriend. If you have found a way to get her to consider that fundamentalism might be in error... please let me know your secret. My friend won't even let me discuss one single biblical perspective to her out of fundamentalism. She thinks I am guiding her into eternal torture, into a burning lake of fire when she dies. Yep, she lives in constant fear... for herself and me. She's extremely well educated too! *sigh*

[RHEMtron]

the weird thing about her is that she grew up in the church, she's still very active [im active with her as well. im no longer catholic/christian, but i still give her support ], reads her bible everyday, constantly prays about everything, lives her life by the scriptures, but she isnt a fundamentalist.

 

she's very humble, never enforces her beliefs unto anyone, never judges, doesnt even like being called a christian [cause she hates labels], very unselfish, always performs good acts "for goodness sake".

 

she very loving and understanding. we discussed my beliefs one day and she was fine with it. the only thing that saddened her was when i expressed that i dont believe in jesus as a saviour. that brought her to tears... but she's willing to try to understand me. she asked that i go with her to meet with the church pastor every sunday. she wants to study the bible again. sometimes it's more of a she watches me have a discussion with the pastor. he's one cool cat. i respect that when i stump him, or i catch some sort of hypocrisy in him or the bible, he'll catch it, understand it, and apologize for it.

 

i doubt she'll ever trully abandon her beliefs, but that's okae. i dont want to enforce my beliefs and knowledge unto her. i just want her to know the history and origins of christianity and the bible... then let her decide what to believe for herself.

 

yeah i feel you on that one. at first it was hard to discuss single passages with friends. what ive been doing to get people to start thinking first, so that they'd in the future want to have an open discussion, is just when youre in their presence, loungin around, read the bible. then casually make little comments here and there as if youre talking to yourself like,"hmmmmm... that weird how there's a different list of disciples in this gospel...."

 

or what i did last month was

 

me: awwww babe you dont have national geographic channel huh?

 

her: no, why?

 

me: their having a documentary on the Gospel of Judas tonight, but oh well. so what do you wanna eat for dinner?

 

her: wait, what? gospel of judas?

 

then that sparked her interest and then i casually start to talk about it like i wasnt lecturing or trying to convince her anything. i think that can possible work for your friend.

[Amanda]

 

 

Thanks Rhem! I'll try that! The problem is... she already has her gaurd up against me... because I didn't think she would react so passionately negatively when I wanted to show her in scripture where I had learned that EVERYONE was going to end in the same place of peace and joy! I thought that was a good thing. Her whole family didn't talk to me for almost a year! Oh well... they finally said they realized what a good friend I was, dispite our theological differences.

[Ouroboros]

because I didn't think she would react so passionately negatively when I wanted to show her in scripture where I had learned that EVERYONE was going to end in the same place of peace and joy! I thought that was a good thing. Her whole family didn't talk to me for almost a year!

 

That's scary...

 

I guess the love they had in their hearts from God above wasn't big enough to rejoice over the revelation that all humans will end up together in a good place.

[Amanda]

That's scary...

 

I guess the love they had in their hearts from God above wasn't big enough to rejoice over the revelation that all humans will end up together in a good place.

C'mon HanSolo! You know the typical response... which I was unaware of back then. They said that would mean Jesus died for nothing! That would mean they have been good for nothing!

 

Some people don't take those "earthquakes" as well as I do, huh?

[mwc]

That's scary...

 

I guess the love they had in their hearts from God above wasn't big enough to rejoice over the revelation that all humans will end up together in a good place.

C'mon HanSolo! You know the typical response... which I was unaware of back then. They said that would mean Jesus died for nothing! That would mean they have been good for nothing!

And isn't this the saddest thing of all? They speak that god needs to punish us eternally to satisfy justice but really they want us punished so as not to have been good for no reason while we "get away with" things. It's their justice that demands our punishment and not gods (which is obvious when they assume you're xian therefore "good" but become "evil" once it's made clear you're not...or at least not their brand).

 

mwc

[Amanda]

And isn't this the saddest thing of all? They speak that god needs to punish us eternally to satisfy justice but really they want us punished so as not to have been good for no reason while we "get away with" things. It's their justice that demands our punishment and not gods (which is obvious when they assume you're xian therefore "good" but become "evil" once it's made clear you're not...or at least not their brand).

 

mwc

MWC, we must realize that when we are given a suggestion one time... it has one effect. Yet, when a suggestion is given thousands of times, throughout our whole lives, it has a much more impactful effect. And when its veracity is just presupposed in our culture, while other aspects may be questioned, then we aren't even given a clue to critically evaluate it, it automatically goes in as truth... and that is the most powerfully delivered suggestion!

 

Sheesh, I remember in seminary, my cherished teacher tried to tell me that Noah's flood was just a metaphor... and I still thought it might be true! *sigh* It wasn't till I came here and was forced to critically analyze it ALL, that I began to realize it could not be true. Although I thought it was just a localized flood, there is a really intelligent guy debating in favor of a worldwide flood on a thread here now!

 

My friend has her MBA, and is quite intelligent. She was raised in a fundy family, and raised her son that way too. I suppose once you have your whole life founded on these concepts, how do you know how to step off these foundations? It's way too threatening that it would cause their whole world to fall apart! I'm telling you, my friend won't even watch Harry Potter because it promotes sorcery! She wouldn't let her exboyfriend, when they were dating, buy a piece of furniture because it had a Goddess on it! Once one has lived with restrictions like that, to avoid the eternal lake of fire and to spend eternity with God, how can one change?

[RHEMtron]

Once one has lived with restrictions like that, to avoid the eternal lake of fire and to spend eternity with God, how can one change?

 

maybe if you can find something she has done that went against her beliefs... but of course that can have 2 effects as well. she either might start to rethink things, or try her best not to do it anymore.

 

on another note, if anybody has been keeping up with my debate with Paul, i think, or at least would like to think, im killing him!!! it just sucks cause there are no moderators to set limits of any kind. the posts are getting pretty lengthy.

 

http://www.interfaithforums.com/showthread...30072#post30072

 

 

 

Thanks Rhem! I'll try that! The problem is... she already has her gaurd up against me... because I didn't think she would react so passionately negatively when I wanted to show her in scripture where I had learned that EVERYONE was going to end in the same place of peace and joy! I thought that was a good thing. Her whole family didn't talk to me for almost a year! Oh well... they finally said they realized what a good friend I was, dispite our theological differences.

 

im not thinking or rhemembering well right now. it's hot up here in sacramento, but where in the scripture does that say that again? i'd like to use that on Paul.

[Amanda]

maybe if you can find something she has done that went against her beliefs... but of course that can have 2 effects as well. she either might start to rethink things, or try her best not to do it anymore.

 

on another note, if anybody has been keeping up with my debate with Paul, i think, or at least would like to think, im killing him!!! it just sucks cause there are no moderators to set limits of any kind. the posts are getting pretty lengthy.

 

Rhem, my friend doesn't do anything wrong! Really! She's rather nonjudgemental... except she is picky with whom she associates. They must be a Christian. She won't even have a cocktail on most occasions because she feels she doesn't want to cause someone else to fall.

 

I've read through the thread of your debate... however, my friend would NOT subject herself to such intense questioning. She says it makes her spirit feel uneasy and doesn't feel it is good for her. Heck... I know that feeling... ask HanSolo! He use to get me often when I first came here. It kinda rocked my foundtions when I started realizing what I had taken for granted to be true... didn't look so true now. Hey, I just accepted it and got over it...

 

My friend has a lot more built on her fundamentalist foundations than I, plus I did/do see the Bible as more allegorical... yet to a much greater degree now. Even if the person you're debating doesn't concede that it can NOT be literally taken as truth in most regards... let him sleep on it. It's amazing what happens after I think about it for awhile. It's almost like... in a debate, I'm positioned to be defensive of my stand. Of course... when HanSolo presented scientific facts, through an objective position... what could I do?

 

im not thinking or rhemembering well right now. it's hot up here in sacramento, but where in the scripture does that say that again? i'd like to use that on Paul.

I'll PM you. There is no direct statement that says EVERYONE will go to heaven... however, there are references that can mean nothing else.

[mwc]

on another note, if anybody has been keeping up with my debate with Paul, i think, or at least would like to think, im killing him!!! it just sucks cause there are no moderators to set limits of any kind. the posts are getting pretty lengthy.

I haven't been reading it but when I clicked on your link I noticed the top message was a discussion of the fulfillment of the law. I don't have the source for you but I sent the following to someone in an email and it might help shut Paul down...way down:

 

in rabbinic argumentation "destroy" means "misinterpret" while

"fulfill" means "correctly interpret." The intention is not to

weaken the Law by misinterpreting it. By properly interpreting

it, Jesus would make it more lasting. Heaven and earth would be

destroyed before He would cause anything to disappear from the

Law.

 

So all jesus was to do, by his *own* admission, was to "correctly

interpret" the law. It's still in effect. Another strike for old Paul.

 

The rabbi goes on to say:

Therefore, if we used the Complete Jewish Bible version of Matthew

5:17 and changed the wording correctly interpreting the words

"abolish" and "complete" we would have, "Don.t think that I have

come to [misinterpret] the Torah, or the Prophets. I have come

not to [misinterpret] but to [assign the fully intended meaning

to the words of Scripture]." (Matthew 5:17, CJB, emphasis mine).

Thus, Yeshua is giving the correct, fully intended meaning of the

Torah to His talmidim.

 

You might also notice that the entire paragraph (Matthew 5:17-20)

and the rest of the "Sermon on the Mount" deals with Torah. He is

not discussing His mission of being the blood sacrifice for the

sins of all mankind. Therefore, the above Rabbinic argument form

must be the correct interpretation of this Scripture.

 

This is an important understanding to have. I never knew that Rabbinic arguments used those terms and so the xian terms seemed to fit the bill. Jesus, who was called Rabbi must have been aware of this and used these forms. He does mention he didn't come to change one "jot or tittle" of the law but to "explain" it (with the proper definitions it makes sense).

 

Here's the definition of "jot and tittle" by the same Rabbi as above (he's referring to an image but I don't have it...it's not really required though):

"The vowel points are the dots and dashes under and over the letters

that tell us how to pronounce each letter. In the Torah scroll, there are

no vowels. The "jot" or yud (in Hebrew) is the smallest letter as we see

in the figure above. The "tittle" or stroke is actually not a letter but a

decoration on certain Hebrew letters as we see above."

 

So using the correct useage of all these things it's easy to see that the law *is* still in effect and jesus' only purpose was to clarify it and not abolish it (as Paul lies about to his readers).

 

mwc

[RHEMtron]

thanks mwc. that's a great help!! i think i have to bring it up him another time though... he says he doesnt have the energy to respond anymore, but he printed out my points so he can respond later. he also admitted he doesnt have the answers.

 

paul used to be a doubter who recently reconverted... im thinking and hoping that our discussion has made him start to think over his beliefs.

[mwc]

thanks mwc. that's a great help!! i think i have to bring it up him another time though... he says he doesnt have the energy to respond anymore, but he printed out my points so he can respond later. he also admitted he doesnt have the answers.

 

paul used to be a doubter who recently reconverted... im thinking and hoping that our discussion has made him start to think over his beliefs.

Well, good luck to you and Paul. I wish the people I discussed these things with had the guts to admit they don't have the answers (in anything more than a defensive tactic).

 

Anyhow, I sure you'll keep these points for later because you know this "fulfillment" issue will come back again and again (and again).

 

mwc

[mwc]

MWC, we must realize that when we are given a suggestion one time... it has one effect. Yet, when a suggestion is given thousands of times, throughout our whole lives, it has a much more impactful effect. And when its veracity is just presupposed in our culture, while other aspects may be questioned, then we aren't even given a clue to critically evaluate it, it automatically goes in as truth... and that is the most powerfully delivered suggestion!

Oh, I know this. Ever since I escaped I've been fairly sensitive to it. The undercurrent of "god" on television and everywhere else is simply astounding. I never heard it as a xian. I focused on the "godlessness" but never noticed all the subtle cues everywhere. The usage of the word "god" and the number of crosses on the sets of the shows and around necks. All of it is sort of like a little song playing in the background all the time...and like Muzak it gets annoying.

 

Sheesh, I remember in seminary, my cherished teacher tried to tell me that Noah's flood was just a metaphor... and I still thought it might be true! *sigh* It wasn't till I came here and was forced to critically analyze it ALL, that I began to realize it could not be true. Although I thought it was just a localized flood, there is a really intelligent guy debating in favor of a worldwide flood on a thread here now!

Yeah, that guy does alright except his brain disengages when it comes right down to using all that knowledge to actually draw the conclusion. There's so many ways to justify each specific aspect of the story but to tie them together is something else entirely. His mind is more than capable enough (unless he's great at simply repeating stuff he's heard but he actually seems to understand it so I think he's legit) but when he starts talking about all those other intelligent people to justify his argument is a sign that he can't pull the pieces together or he just would.

 

My friend has her MBA, and is quite intelligent. She was raised in a fundy family, and raised her son that way too. I suppose once you have your whole life founded on these concepts, how do you know how to step off these foundations? It's way too threatening that it would cause their whole world to fall apart! I'm telling you, my friend won't even watch Harry Potter because it promotes sorcery! She wouldn't let her exboyfriend, when they were dating, buy a piece of furniture because it had a Goddess on it! Once one has lived with restrictions like that, to avoid the eternal lake of fire and to spend eternity with God, how can one change?

I was absolutely terrified to even breach the idea in my own mind. It was like I had this barrier (the Berlin Wall perhaps) and to cross it was to die. It was that scary for me. I thought that I was objective and all the things others say but I wasn't. I see it only now. I would have fought you, maybe more so, that those fundies that come here and would have walked away knowing you knew the truth but that you didn't want to accept it. The bible is a powerful drug in this regard. As I've said before though, when the time came to actually, once and for all put it behind me the time up to that literally felt like jesus in the garden to me. Sweating (drenched in sweat) and the whole horrible picture. Then I quit. I felt "odd" (I'm not sure how to describe it...almost numb in a way) and then it was gone. This was the final exit (I tried once and went back out of fear). After that there was *one* time when my wife had "left" for awhile and I woke up in the middle of the night, drenched in sweat and reciting the lord's prayer (I was part way through it so I must have been saying it in my sleep). That was wierd and I don't know why it happened other than maybe stress.

 

So, I know exactly how this can feel. I know that it is just about the most terrifying thing that I had to go through, which in the end, wasn't that bad at all. Strange how that works.

 

As for how one changes. I don't know. I really don't know what the actual thing was that did it (I know the moment that caused it to end but that's different). It took me more than a year to actually talk through it all. I am starting to think it was a defense mechanism. I grew up in the xian world and went to a xian school where they taught everything from the xian view (science, math, anything and everything related somehow to jesus). When I got out into the world and met my wife she opened my eyes to some things (it's hard to describe). I took some classes and I think then is when the seeds were planted. My mind worked to get all this information sorted out. All the things I say about geology and the like were put into my head back then. I reworked the Genesis story to compensate for evolution (even though I believed we were created I became an OEC guy). I did all that stuff. The more I learned the more in conflicted and so on and on. I like to learn and so it got to the point where I used to use a disclaimer in front of certain topics ("leaving god out of this discussion ..."). This allowed me to have an academic discussion and then "revert" when it was done. I essentially had two worlds (like splitting I guess but these worlds were not totally separate...it's sort of how I now assume god is real for the discussions here). I guess my mind couldn't hold it altogether anymore and I begged god for that sign...any sign...that would have allowed me to put aside my knowledge for god. The justification never came and I melted down. I couldn't keep lying to myself and I broke.

 

I don't know if this is all there was to it. I'm only now trying to sort through the reasons behind the actual events (which I've laid out here before) so this might change as I remember more of what was really going on. Anyhow...

 

mwc

[Amanda]

 

 

Wow, MWC... I can't imagine you and so many on here were actually fundies at one time! Hard to fathom.

 

My family was agnostic/atheist. My exhusband and most guys I date/dated are agnostic/atheist. Ha! That way we don't fight over theology... cause they don't care! They're kinda like

 

I use to go to church all the time when I was younger... so yes... I somewhat believed all those stories. They do establish good morals. However... I kinda 'backslid' in my late teens... and just asked God to show me why I was doing this or that wrong... or at least give me an alternative... and I would stop. The answer didn't come, other than natural repercussions for my actions... so on with my life I went. I guess I couldn't be disciplined enough to be a fundy... although I did put myself through college and was quite athletic then.

 

Later, I went to seminary, and not because I wanted to do so. But... I met and had this most wonderful teacher, who was also the president! Great guy, and he offered a new way to look at the Bible... that made sense. He emphasized that too. I think he set me up for the revelations on this site... and I've ALWAYS said from the beginning here... he would have loved this group! Really! He tried to tell me they were all basically allegories, in the OT anyway... and it was the concepts and principles... with yes, a few techniques and methods... that could be further explored and learned other ways... including from ALL spiritual teachings. He passed away, the new owner that took over is reverting back to fundamentalism, except he does believe that ALL will end in the same place... heaven/nirvana.

 

Like I've said... if I could get my friend to see what this fundy belief is doing to her! I know she thinks if she let it all go... she will feel she has wasted her life! All her friends had to be Christians... and her boyfriends/husbands had to be fundys too. Now, you think she is just going to say... she's lived her whole life in a terrible lie? I think she would rather remain the same than to take a new path that could actually allow her lots more happiness. You're fortunate to have broken away... however, I sense that she and I are quite a bit older than you. I still think it would be better for her to be free some of her life, than not at all. Think of all the good parties, songs, and movies she has missed! Heck, the first thing I'd do is take her to a Harry Potter's flick. :wink:

[mwc]

Wow, MWC... I can't imagine you and so many on here were actually fundies at one time! Hard to fathom.

The thing is that I was surprised to find out I was a fundie. I thought it was just xianity. It was the Baptist school that really did the number on me and during my long deconversion it was my anger towards them that started me really speaking out. Not against god but against those that abuse in his name. Quite awhile later I realized I was angry at the top man himself. I gave my life and love to him and he allowed this to happen? He tells me that the leaders are put in place by him for my benefit and then this crap happens (I won't go into my school life but it sucked and the punishements all required writing an essay from the bible pointing out how what you did was wrong and a sin...I got extremely good at essays even to the point of learning to justify my longer than allowed hair...not bad for grade school boy if I knew then what I know now though. ).

 

My family was agnostic/atheist. My exhusband and most guys I date/dated are agnostic/atheist. Ha! That way we don't fight over theology... cause they don't care! They're kinda like

 

I use to go to church all the time when I was younger... so yes... I somewhat believed all those stories. They do establish good morals. However... I kinda 'backslid' in my late teens... and just asked God to show me why I was doing this or that wrong... or at least give me an alternative... and I would stop. The answer didn't come, other than natural repercussions for my actions... so on with my life I went. I guess I couldn't be disciplined enough to be a fundy... although I did put myself through college and was quite athletic then.

 

Later, I went to seminary, and not because I wanted to do so. But... I met and had this most wonderful teacher, who was also the president! Great guy, and he offered a new way to look at the Bible... that made sense. He emphasized that too. I think he set me up for the revelations on this site... and I've ALWAYS said from the beginning here... he would have loved this group! Really! He tried to tell me they were all basically allegories, in the OT anyway... and it was the concepts and principles... with yes, a few techniques and methods... that could be further explored and learned other ways... including from ALL spiritual teachings. He passed away, the new owner that took over is reverting back to fundamentalism, except he does believe that ALL will end in the same place... heaven/nirvana.

I don't think being a fundie takes discipline. I think it takes being disciplined. My family aren't fundies (my grandma was the closest I guess since she told me dinosaurs weren't real). My family is actually shocked when I told them the extent of my beliefs. It's funny in a way.

 

 

Like I've said... if I could get my friend to see what this fundy belief is doing to her! I know she thinks if she let it all go... she will feel she has wasted her life! All her friends had to be Christians... and her boyfriends/husbands had to be fundys too. Now, you think she is just going to say... she's lived her whole life in a terrible lie? I think she would rather remain the same than to take a new path that could actually allow her lots more happiness. You're fortunate to have broken away... however, I sense that she and I are quite a bit older than you. I still think it would be better for her to be free some of her life, than not at all. Think of all the good parties, songs, and movies she has missed! Heck, the first thing I'd do is take her to a Harry Potter's flick. :wink:

I have to admit that I'm still not entirely comfortable thinking my religious life was a lie. That I could be so easily fooled. It bothers me when I see others doing the same things as I did. Saying the same things. Telling me that they're nothing like me. I want to help them. I really do. It doesn't matter because I wouldn't have listened to me either and that's the bigger source of frustration for me.

 

Well, I'm right about 37 (a little past actually) so I'll leave it to you to decide our age difference.

 

I wish I could describe what I went through as "breaking away." I guess I can now. But really I hit rock bottom with a very loud and painful thud. Sadly I think this "freedom" was the beginning of all my marital problems. I wander which life is really better? I know I can't go back but I would if it could "fix" my marriage. I'd undo it all. But it is what it is. I've tasted freedom and I know too much now. (I can be such a downer.)

 

Yep, I never stayed away from "evil" movies and comedy and such. I figured that they're just fables so who cares? If you go to a HP movie and start doing witchcraft something was up with you and not the movie. My wife was reluctant to go the the last HP (although she'd seen the others) but she went anyway and seemed to enjoy it (not comments about any of it). She does skip television shows she used to watch ("I just don't like it anymore"...and this is more than just the porn. ). I never partied and I don't drink, smoke or do drugs so I can't comment. I know that if I want to I can because it's my choice and doesn't hinge on what a book says is right/wrong. It's sad that I was chained so long. That's why I like your flavor of xianity. I won't ever follow it but I like it. It just seems better to me.

 

mwc