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  1. 6 points
    My fundy dad once dragged me to a "party." Fun people, he said. Fun party, he said. It was an Amway ambush. Some kid about 18 or 19 did a presentation showing how as a college student he was already making over $100,000 with Amway. I asked him if he was making that much money why was he wasting his time in school. He said he needed a degree to make a living. Let us pray.....
  2. 6 points
    Thanks for the great replies guys. I guess im still really naive in thinking that its impossible for ANY human being in this day and age to be as totally brainwashed by religion. When facts and logic are so readily at hand. Religions ruins everything. I tried to reason with my christian friend yesterday. She reacted with so much hostility it scared me. Like a cornered wild animal.
  3. 4 points
    I once put the questions in my Thought Experiment post to the pastor of a church. He side-stepped them and changed the subject to question me on the source of my Deist morality. I think Christian fundamentalists have been deeply shaken over the last couple of decades. Jesus was expected to return around 1988 (forty years---a biblical generation---after the birth of the modern state of Israel). Jesus didn't come back, the Soviet Union (the great "prophetic" enemy of Israel) fell, the European Common Market (the great beast) was dissolved.....by the early '90s their whole apocalyptic scenario had fallen apart. Now they're scrambling to convert the Jews to Christianity, apparently to set things up so Jesus will return after saying in the gospels that he wouldn't be seen at the temple again until his critics learned to cry, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" They're still proclaiming that the end is near, but I suspect that underneath it all they're desperate for vindication.
  4. 3 points
    I agree with your definition of the two kinds of belief, Moonobserver. However, a big problem arises when what people believe by faith causes them to disconnect themselves from their fellow human beings. For instance, look at Edgarcito's lack of empathy towards the suffering of that ten year old sex slave. Faith isn't a good thing if it corrodes your humanity. Thanks. Walter.
  5. 3 points
    Apart from the fact that your post is barely coherent - the reason you might be facing some hostility is one your claim is total bullshit, and two we get that bullshit thrown at as all the time. So put yourself in my shoes getting bullshit thrown at you all the time - the next time someone throws some at you you probably aren't gonna thank them are you? Your particular style of bullshit comes from the likes of these folk: https://www.gotquestions.org/ex-Christian.html who get their bullshit from from the NT. The article asks "Why do some people claim to be former Christians?"... well you dimwits, because we were! The fact that you try and define that out of reality doesn't make it true. I was also a former creationist, a former homophobe, a former whateverthefuck. And you can put Ex in front of these words to indicate the past tense of the position you once held. The article linked ends with this "Any person who claimed to be a Christian, but later rejects the Christian faith, was never truly a Christian." Congratulations - Christians committing absurd logical fallacies since AD0. For the ignorant among you the logical fallacy displayed is a no true scotsman... but you should know that because TRP pointed it out earlier. It occurs to me that this sounds ranty... but it also occurs to me that I'm in rants and replies Oh what the hell I'll have a crack at answering this or else I'll lay awake drafting up an answer: No, your belief has no bearing on the truth - hence me pointing out your fallacy of saying we weren't really Christians. Belief is merely a mind state that indicates whether or not you agree with a proposition. The question before us is: are former Christians former Christians? Your answer, based on fallacious reasoning, is no, we were never really Christians. However a Christian is one who professes the tenants of Christianity, and since all ex-Christians here by definition once professed Christianity then we are all former, or ex-Christians. The fact that you want to point to your holy book and highlight it's propensity to commit fallacies has no bearing on the truth.
  6. 2 points
    No, I have not ignored the scope of the plan. I made very clear what the bible presents as this plan of salvation per the book of Revelation, which is what you're referring to above. The plan doesn't make any sense against what you believe, though. 1) The god is eternal, he's always had eternal life. All along. The whole time. 2) The god is omnipresent, meaning he's "all", and leading to your pantheistic notions of god. 3) The god is omniscient, meaning he's all knowing, therefore doesn't have to experience anything or learning anything, because he necessarily already knows it all. If god has always had eternal life, and god is everything, then everything is just as eternal as god is. Because god is everything, and god is eternal. People living and dying, is an illusion in this sense. They are not really living and dying. They are just the god bubbling up forms and images out of itself which have the appearance of everything visible - planets, star systems, elements, life forms, and finally human beings. It all has to be the omnipresent god. And omnipresent god is eternal, hence, there isn't anything in existence which is actually finite or non-eternal. Do you follow this? All of the generations of people from adam to jesus, and from jesus to now, can not be anything OTHER than the god who is "all." What is resurrected? Nothing ever died to begin with? Nothing could have died, if EVERYTHING is nothing more than the god itself. It's not as if god had to come down to the earth in human form - the omnipresent god had been on the earth in human form all along, in every human that had ever existed. As well as everything else in existence. To suggest striving towards a time ahead in the future when everything will be ice cream and peachy, when eternal life is finally made available to humans, makes no sense. The plan of salvation is nonsense against philosophical pantheistic framework. What exactly do you think the scope of this plan is? The bible is contradictory across the board, including it's presentation of a plan of salvation, by an omnipresent god. It's never going to all work together and line up. It's not possible for it to work together and line up. Because we're talking about differing opinions written about by differing personality types over the course of at least 500 years, if not a 1,000 year period of various writing. Who all saw in terms of small pieces of a puzzle, which, put altogether do not amount to a full picture. It is impossible for you to reconcile the bible as internally consistent when it never was to begin with. That's the big picture here, Edgarcito. That's what we've all come to realize, each in our own ways. The bible is nonsensical from beginning to end. Pantheism doesn't solve the bible's contradictions, it only creates more of them. The fall of man, plan of salvation, cross, resurrection, ascension, and return are part of the nonsense included in the bible. We're aware of the details surrounding that conclusion.
  7. 2 points
    Church folk are gullible by definition. It makes sense that other hucksters want to share in the catch for their own financial or political gain.
  8. 2 points
    The difference being that jesus went into his suffering secure in the knowledge that it would be over and done three days later. Geez, what a sacrifice.
  9. 2 points
    Since recognizing the problems with traditional Christian theology, I have been through numerous phases; I've had neopagan leanings, made a transition from there toward Taoism and more recently identified with Deism. I haven't discarded any of these as patently false; it feels more like moving from room to room in a large house built of spiritual and philosophical possibilities. Some might dismiss this as the proverbial "cafeteria religion", but I would remind such critics that if they're going to compare spirituality to nutrition, they should concede that a balanced diet requires variety. Thus I now find myself mindful of what each of these spiritual directions has given me. Deism has provided me with an intellectual approach to metaphysics and a way to ponder the mechanistics of a material cosmos and the phenomenon of its existence. Taoism, from its Eastern approach, has shown me the universe as an organism in the flow and harmony of its being. Neopaganism has put personal faces on the transpersonal forces of life and given me a way to relate to the universe being-to-being. I consider all as having merit and none as mutually exclusive.
  10. 2 points
    ...Answers in Genesis - the people who think that the flintstones is a documentary (Humans walking with dinosaurs) Ken Ham, their leader, has publicly stated that there is nothing that can change his mind. Therefore I don't think we can count on them for an unbiased look at slavery can we?
  11. 2 points
    I looked at their website and the footnote for this section offered nothing so I'm going to take a guess. Given what they seemed to be saying elsewhere the argument appears to be that these particular slaves, the ones we're talking about here and no others, were more along the lines of indentured servants. The Jews did tend towards this when we're talking about slavery with other Jews but when we talk about Jews taking non-Jewish slaves then it was essentially the same as any other slavery you might imagine. So to ensure we're on the same page I'm going to say they're talking about Jews enslaving Jews which amounts to a sort of indentured servitude. In this case the rules would mean that they are freed at some point (I'm not going to look up the rules to make sure I get them right since the specifics don't matter here). If this is the case then what this would mean is that they're saying you have a person who becomes enslaved for some reason (usually their own personally failing, like a debtor or some or such thing), and then their master could beat them but they don't want them to die (because they wouldn't get repaid or whatever). If we think about other forms of slavery, such as with foreigners, then this changes a bit since the slave is never released (unless the master makes it so). The master could also suffer a loss here since slaves cost money but not quite in the same way as someone being held as forced labor (since you never have to buy them and, I believe, you get to hold them for a fixed period of time so they can work the debt and then some). I don't know why the site doesn't notify you via email. Sorry. Have you checked you spam folder just in case it's going there? mwc
  12. 2 points
    Remember----I specifically said I am working toward demonstrating whether edgarcito's original premise has merit. I don't really care about the existence of deity in general; but, rather, the specific deity in question.
  13. 2 points
    I have incomplete data on the flying spaghetti monster. Should I therefore believe he might exist? How about the angel Moroni?
  14. 2 points
    Agree with all of this. Life is easy when you have choices you can make and aren't limited. The world is yours then in many ways and even disadvantages can be overcome somewhat. But add factors like disability and illness in spite of "free" health Care, the ridiculous cost of living, the fact many are in debt, the fact minimum wage isn't anywhere near supporting the cost of living, the list goes on... Once they're elected, they're in it for themselves no matter what ideals they had entering it. I look at JT and understand why people get disillusioned with him, son of a rich wealthy prominent family, how can he relate to an ordinary Canadian who faces struggles he has never seen? When "democracy" favors the rich and wealthy you never end up with politicians who have any real measure of depth or substance to them. People gain character and experience through real challenge.
  15. 2 points
    Hi Kdeaustin. Change is always scary and the bigger the change the more scary. Nevertheless congratulations on trusting your own (god given?) reasoning abilities and gut feelings regarding right and wrong over the powerful influences exerted on you by you christian pier group to control your thoughts. As you gradually come to trust your own reasoning more and more your life view will become much more firm and reliable than one supplied to you by the group think church goers and the confusing contradictory "guidance" found in their bible. That new foundation will be one you can build on with thoughts than can be trusted and examined as closely as you choose and the fear (unfounded fear} will then start to fade. You might take some comfort from the fact that 2/3s of our present population on earth does not believe in the bible or christianity. If the christian god is so concerned for each and every human how can he do such an extremely poor job of reaching them and then the powerful holy spirit unleashed on humanity some 2,000+ years ago but Islam (which believes it is blasphemy to call the human Jesus a god) is the fastest growing religion set to catch the christian plurality by 2050. You are clearly having a dangerously difficult time with this transition so keep up with secular professional help until you find a safe place in your thoughts and emotions. I hope you will engage with us on the things that are being said here. The more we know about your concerns and what kinds of ideas you find helpful the more we'll be able to help you. We look forward to hearing from you when you have time. Thank you for sharing your story,
  16. 2 points
    Edgarcito. That transcript was an example of two devout Christians finding it impossible to reason with each over just one verse. When you read the transcript you arrived at a different understanding to theirs. "I'm gathering Paul considered himself one with Christ as Jesus was one with the Father?" Then you said that you didn't actually hold with your initial assumption. "I personally don't agree with that because Paul also mentions doing things he doesn't wish to do on occasion." So, that's three different Christians, arriving at four different understandings of just one verse. There are over 31,000 verses in the whole Bible and billions of Christians in thousands of different denominations, sects and cults, within which there are different shades of opinion, different interpretations and different personal positions on various issues of translation, authenticity and exegesis. Do you really think that billions of Christians can successfully reason with each other over the billions of possible interpretations they all have of scripture? When two Christians fail to do so over one just one verse? ?
  17. 2 points
    It seems to me that most christians learn to be christians by imitating those who are, presumably, imitating christ: parents, pastors, Sunday school teachers, youth leaders, etc. Doesn't need to be as difficult as what Barbara was making it.
  18. 2 points
    As it is written, your rights end where another's begin.
  19. 2 points
  20. 2 points
    No it's not. You're making a lot of unfounded assertions here. The fine-tuned universe is a lot of garbage. There is nowhere that is more hostile to life than the universe. Period. As to how many planets hold life? As of now we know of one. How many have we actually explored? In person? Just one. With probes? A handful around our star. Beyond that? Zero. We've taken a peek and inferred some things with our telescopes but what that should tell you is there are billions of planets out there. The odds of life existing other than our own is quite high. Even if there is only one, just one, life form even similar to our own in intelligence in each galaxy. That leaves billions of aliens. Or are we the aliens? I guess it's all perspective. Billions of us alone, in our own galaxies, yet not actually alone. Keep in mind. The universe is huge. You believe that jesus flew up into heaven. But heaven is some magical realm. Because if he was to fly to a real place, even at the speed of light, he still hasn't left the Milky Way galaxy (and he's probably pretty darn cold by now). Anyhow, that aside, by your own admission god wanted the rebellion to happen. Could Satan have not rebelled? Does Satan have full autonomy? mwc
  21. 2 points
    I don't like this definition. "Infinite" implies that the thing being referred to is, in some sense, quantifiable. There has to be an endless amount of a thing in order for it to be infinite. But how can there be an endless amount of nothing? It seems to me, that if it's really nothing, then there should be none of it. "Inert emptiness" is also problematic, because emptiness is a lack of something in a particular place, and if there is a lack of something, then there is something. Moreover, something can't really be inert unless there is at least the possibility that it could change. But there is a much deeper problem here. Any definition of "nothing" will fail necessarily, because definitions are descriptions of what a thing is. Nothing is not a thing. So we can't describe what it is. It isn't. Put another way, if we say "nothing is X", and X is a thing, then nothing is a thing, which it isn't. It's nothing. The main problem I see with this is that it assumes nothing is a possible state of the universe. It is not. It couldn't be. The universe consists of all things. To treat nothing as a possible state of the universe seems to be contradictory on the face of it. It also isn't clear to me that existence "costs" anything to maintain. Specific forms of existence do, to be sure, but simple brute existence of matter and energy? I don't think so. I don't think this is correct. Something clearly does exist. Principles, on my view, are simply human attempts to describe what is going on. They follow from the existence of things, not the other way around. I agree that the universe being self-evident does not make it self-explanatory. But I don't think this is a problem. Explanations are just human attempts to account for what occurs within the universe. It isn't at all clear to me that the universe itself requires an explanation. The answer to the tree question turns on one's definition of sound. Physically, the vibrations are sound, so the answer is yes. Psychologically, sound is something that occurs in the mind, so the answer is no. I've never really understood why this is held up as some kind of profound, deep question. It just depends what we're talking about. I don't think that perceptions shape reality. I think perceptions are shaped by reality.
  22. 2 points
    Best wishes RC! I'm glad you have recovered and found your tribe. @ag_NO_stic I do miss your rants. I dont log in much myself, but you often challenged my thinking and I appreciate you and what you have to say. When I deconverted I thought I would find, or perhaps hoped to find, more agreement among nonbelievers. Probably a mix of wanting to be right and wanting to replace the community of the church (not that the church can agree on much). It was a real letdown at first. I have grown a lot in my little bits of time here and I am much more accepting of the fact that humans just arent great at agreeing with each other and good is not black and white as much as I would like it to be. I just try my best and hope others do the same.
  23. 2 points
    You are projecting. You project often. It's rather obvious and quite boring. I do not believe you. Your "God" is simply a projection of your own character and beliefs and nothing more. You spew lazy mere assertions, self-aggrandizing tribalism and incessant hate, all with a sanctimonious and narcissistic flair. The fact that you believe you are special is comical as well as pathetic.
  24. 1 point
    If you're trying to make it fit you must think it should and can fit. There is no reason to assume this anymore than there is reason to assume you can make sense of alphabet soup.
  25. 1 point
    https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/ https://qz.com/1726232/the-three-types-of-climate-change-denial/amp/
  26. 1 point
    Well, at least Edgarcito has changed his stance from being covertly evasive to being overtly evasive.
  27. 1 point
    I feel this a problem of resolving guilt. Correct me if I am wrong. Christianity has divine forgiveness and personal repentence as the solution for guilt. To resolve guilt is pretty hard lacking some kind of forgiveness/ repentance ritual of some sort. And there are secular versions of it. Therapy does act like this for many secular folk. Itdepends on your ethical/cosmological / cultural framework a lot. Without more info it is pretty hard to say anything concrete. If you practice budhism search in that area.
  28. 1 point
    I was raised to be a YEC. It took an embarrassingly long time for me to move on. On the plus side, though, the realization that that part was bull led me to question what other parts might also be, and here we are.
  29. 1 point
    Oh for godsake Edgarcito, can't you answer the question to the best of your ability and stop dodging? Insert ANY "evil" thing you can think of (i.e. holocaust, flesh-eating diseases, rape/torture/murder, you name it) and tell us whether you believe God is either unwilling or unable to prevent them. The answer is one or the other. It is not that complicated. Which is it?
  30. 1 point
    Yes, I believe that the Bible *says* that, but that doesn't mean it's really why rainbows appear.
  31. 1 point
    And you're ignoring the part where it is as complete as god chose for it to be.
  32. 1 point
    Christian apologists try to explain away the inconsistencies in the Christian scriptures, especially the resurrection accounts, by claiming that they just show the writers not to have been in collusion with each other. What, then, are we to make of Mark 14:55-56? "And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death and found none. For many bore false witness against him, but their witness did not agree together." We're not told what those witnesses said. So if inconsistency just rules out collusion, why couldn't it be assumed that those witnesses just "weren't in collusion"?
  33. 1 point
    I was familiar with the 'Once saved, always saved' stuff - never understood it. But, what the heck, if you want to say that - you may as far as I am concerned. I'll stick with ex-Christian. You do realise don't you that if you get saved .... ahh I see where you are going...I never was saved in the first place! 58 years wasted NOT
  34. 1 point
    Oh no, not at all! I am respectful of others' beliefs, as long as they don't try to force their shit down my throat. "Live and let live", and all that fun stuff. But, when she (or anybody else, for that matter) attempts to use the bible as a weapon against me, I tend to "go for the throat", and demolish their silly beliefs. A lot of christians think that quoting from their silly book should just immediately reduce unbelievers to tears, or something like that. When people fight back and things don't play out according to their nutty "script", they just can't handle it. Scary stuff for them! So at that point, they cry "persecution". Ridiculous!
  35. 1 point
  36. 1 point
    Thanks Taba. And thanks for reading my thread. I hope you got something from it. X
  37. 1 point
    Yeah, I really liked Billy Preston's song, "Nothing from nothing leaves nothing" when it came out in '74." Hard to believe that was 45 years ago The famous cool Latin phrase stated that "out of nothing comes nothing, "ex nihilo nihil fit,.
  38. 1 point
    Listen to the Satanic evil coming from this witch's lips. *Fans myself to avoid fainting* haha
  39. 1 point
    Sounds like the Navy. Even for those who didn't swear, there was one acronym that was universally used: NFG. Applied to the data tag on a piece of broken equipment, it means No __ Good. There is a joke about the sailors who are about to be discharged. The chaplain gathered them together for a talk about adjusting to civilian life. He told them about how some of the friends they might have had before they enlisted may have drifted away. He told them that they would qualify for various benefits. And finally, he said, "And when you sit down with your family for that first dinner at home, and you ask someone to pass the salt, don't describe it."
  40. 1 point
    My thanks to TruthSeeker0, LogicalFallacy, florduh, the RedneckProfessor and Derek for their kind words of welcome. :) Also, a quick aside to MOHO. Earlier you mentioned the 'twisted logic' of William Lane Craig . In my experience that's not entirely the case. Craig should not be underestimated or disparaged. However, he has made a cardinal error in his handling of Hawking and Penrose's 1970 singularity theorem. Maybe that could be a topic for future discussion? All the best. Walter.
  41. 1 point
    Hi and welcome, Walter.... good to meet ya
  42. 1 point
    Thank you MOHO I'm glad you explained your handle. I might have thought you were THE MOHO. https://geology.com/articles/mohorovicic-discontinuity.shtml Walter.
  43. 1 point
    As opposed to how easily you provide us with evidence for your metaphysical choices when we ask? christianity is just as indefensible and you are disingenuous. People should be left alone to find out what works for them; and the Spirituality Forum ensures that they are.
  44. 1 point
    Obviously, neither do you, if you think it somehow applies to his statement.
  45. 1 point
    I heard of paganism and got more interested in it by reading stuff on the net. Then I bought some books on the subject. Nobody converted me. Whether it is growing or not I have no idea. Paganism isn't an organized religion like Christianity. There's only 1 person in my small group. (haha) Now, a coven of witches is 13 people which, coincidentally is the number of the apostles plus Jesus. Fun fact.
  46. 1 point
    Fair enough, it's slightly less illogical to believe different versions of the same stories. But this still doesn't explain why god exists.
  47. 1 point
    Another way of viewing their claims. The doctrine of original sin is a self fulfilling prophecy. If you truely believe you are incomplete, and incapable, and need gods help to be saved, then it is so. You are hooked for life, and dependent on the religious police and saviors for guidance.
  48. 1 point
    So much so they have set regular meeting times on a specific day to do this!
  49. 1 point
    I don't recall using the term evidence, however what I'm looking for is verifiable facts (evidence if you like) supporting the rational conclusion that a claim is true or false. For example if I say to you "I have a dog in my back yard", and you say back up the claim, I can provide you with photos, invite you to come to my place, you can see the dog poop, maybe pick it up for me, and most importantly pat and interact with the dog. At that point I've presented you with verifiable facts (evidence) supporting the rational conclusion that there is a dog in my back yard. If I did this to 100 people, notwithstanding any mental disorders, they would all agree that there is a dog in my back yard. At that point we can all reasonably confidently state that it is a fact of reality that there is a dog in my back yard. Now, I tell you there is A transcendent, immaterial, invisible Pink Unicorn in my back yard... evidence for this you ask? Well I have a book, I feel good. I asked the unicorn to find my keys and lo and behold I found them. I had a headache, I prayed to the unicorn and it went away... at that point you be like yeah, nah bro... I mean verifiable evidence. Hopefully that gives you some idea of what I mean by "do you have anything other than the bible to back up your claim".
  50. 1 point
    Materialists Christians need to be stroked in their un belief so they seek out like minds and all get together and commune in their un belief. Sad, I must say.



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