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Showing content with the highest reputation on 08/09/2019 in all areas

  1. 5 points
    For those of you who missed my long odes.....drink up, bitches! If you didn't, well, lucky for you, this post explains why you don't see them much anymore. Wanted to save you a read, you're welcome. When I heard you were leaving, I logged back in for the first time in a few months just to emphasize how much I totally understand and agree with you, RC. I will probably not delete my profile, I had good things to say that could help others, but I never log in anymore. Those who challenge the mainstream opinion politically end up leaving, mind relatively unchanged, but recognizing that some here aren't in pursuit of truth wherever that pursuit may lead. I know, I know, I should just avoid ToT right? It's not like I have to go there, like....just don't go there. So I didn't for awhile. But I am not fan of the "don't like it, just avoid it" concept. Why don't we like it in the first place? Can't we make it better for more people? Deal with the source of the problem! I would engage, take breaks and research, reexamine my beliefs.....but you start to feel really lonely when you don't want to talk to christians, you don't want to talk about christianity, and you now also don't want to deal with the increasingly frustrating "Woke." So many posts challenged my perspective; so I would research all different sides of an argument as time allowed, I was willing to change if the argument was convincing to me. When that feels one sided, after awhile, you just leave. You don't make some fuss, or demand change like some kind of narcissist; you stop with the rant posts or comments of frustration and you just leave. You look for those who listen like you try to. That's not even to be dramatic either, just a simple choice that seems best for everyone. If you're reading this and you have an urge to debate me or defend the situation as I'm describing it instead of just listening and empathizing with an opposing perspective (which is what we want from christians), you might be one of those people. As a christian, my pursuit of truth in spite of discomfort was met with "You're just an atheist because you just want to go out and sin" or "You just don't see it from our lord and savior's holy perspective yet" or "HOW can you read the bible and not see GOD everywhere?! How can you not see his hand in your life?!" When you drop christianity, you start to drop any conservatism at first too, surely they are uniquely linked because of all the annoying religious republicans I know. Turns out atheists can be moral without the bible AND fiscally conservative without faith, who knew. Now, I hear about my "sin of whiteness" / "just being mad because you have to make your racist jokes in private now" or "That's just internalized misogyny you haven't dealt with yet" or "not having arrived upon the real, "factual," truth of academia" in spite of my reality not matching up with what I was being taught. Of course these are tropes, not necessarily a reference to direct encounters on this site, but that mindset is the same and is very recognizable and there was absolutely overlap. It's why many of us like the lion's den even if we haven't battled "this one" yet. You're right, I could avoid ToT. I was even shaming myself for not seeing it the way so many seemed to. Why couldn't I see it this way, what the heck? Why is this article or "evidence" not convincing to me? One day it clicked; it is what is and I feel how I feel and I think what I think through personal experience and I don't have to apologize for it. I tried it, don't agree, move on. I don't have to keep moving things around mentally, shifting things around to make sense of it, blaming myself, etc. This site helped me tremendously with leaving my faith, I'm forever grateful. I have met some truly wonderful people. Sure, I could stay for the new ex-christians.....but it's not like what I have to say is a whole lot different than others here, it's not like I have a @Margee hug (<3), it's not like I have loads of time, and we have archives and archives of users tackling the same material. It's not like I'm offering much new. That's just the humility of it. Everyone wants to be missed, and every active member is to an extent, but you're just one of many and everyone will be fine. I'm not trying to make this political or start anything or be unkind or dramatic, it just pertains to the OP and I'm tired of downplaying or apologizing for where I legitimately am with all this political stuff. I joined when I was starting to value reason and the simple "live and let live" concept of beliefs and behavior. I stopped logging in awhile ago when I realized just how much these ideologies share with the faith I "left." I threw christianity the fuck away for many, many reasons. I refuse to blindly follow the majority consensus just because it's the majority or certain public figure endorsements or ideas purely for the sake of their partisan ties.There is true liberal thought, open dialogue, and constructive criticism of ideas on one hand (which I recognize and can take) and then there is privileged, condescending, parroted "education" with questionable many sources on the other (which I will not take). I am a free thinker. If you made it this far, I appreciate you taking the time. If you have more time, this article explains what I mean in particularly memorable way and is very well written. Also, I promise I do enjoy cat memes as well. I just tend to like the nitty gritty, just check my Enneagram results. https://www.alternet.org/2019/01/heres-why-evangelicals-and-social-justice-warriors-trigger-me-in-the-same-way/ Thanks for the post, RC. And thanks for your contributions here.
  2. 3 points
    I pegged poster LuthAMF as a narcissistic little shit in a post in this thread on May 30, 2019, identified him as a TULIP wannabe (i.e., Calvinist) on June 5, 2019, and commented in the few subsequent posts about his disingenuousness, projection and other things. His posts have certainly served as an example to members and lurkers alike of how presuppositional religious beliefs can foster serious emotional, psychological and mental dysfunctions. I think that lesson has been well demonstrated. And let's not forget Josh's mature and rational attempt to engage poster LuthAMF in the parallel "informal debate" thread, from which we were given only more of poster LuthAMF's hubris, discordance and bleating. Allowing him to continue to expose his empty suit, with attendant vacuous vitriol, focused hate and irrational nonsense is not going to help members or lurkers any further, and is only going to foster a deepening of his unfortunate malady. For his own good, he should simply go away. Yes, ban him.
  3. 2 points
    @ag_NO_stic there isn't much I can say to your post that I haven't said in our last two years of conversations. I can agree with much of what you've said. It seems that you have also moved on from this website and are forging your own path. I'd like every new member (or lurker) reading this to take note, this fierce mental independence and resilience should be your end goal. Beware of dogmatic ideas that are no better than the religion you just left behind. Do not be emotionally dependent on the group, sure you can have friends but learn to stand on your own if necessary. Your mind is yours and yours alone.
  4. 2 points
    The money is there for future needs -- salary replacement. Counting the money I've already saved, I'd still have $1M after spending $100K on stuff. At a withdrawal rate of 4% per year, which in an average stock market would keep most or all of the principal intact (because an increase in stock prices plus dividend payouts would put money back into the account), that would give me a $40,000 annual income for the rest of my life.
  5. 2 points
    Agree with the above sentiments. It's devolved to the point where apparently I have a black mind. No doubt he means something alone the lines of the bible verse talking about reprobate minds... but he doesn't bother to engage the points made nor back up unfounded assertions.
  6. 2 points
    If anybody else is getting sick of this obnoxious fuck, speak up.
  7. 2 points
    Lets not forget the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I mean the tree ok... but fruit on it that Eve could eat? It's like putting steak in front of a dog, walking away then giving it a hiding when you come back to find the steak eaten.
  8. 2 points
    Absolutely. I'm particularly amazed at how he created Lucifer and the fallen angels, and then created hell for them, and then decided to throw everybody else into hell except for you and your 4 YouTube subscribers. The sheer stupidity of god's "creation" truly staggers the imagination. Here are a few more amazing "creations" of god's: https://www.popsci.com/human-eye-parasites/ https://www.medicinenet.com/necrotizing_fasciitis/article.htm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump https://www.chop.edu/conditions-diseases/osteosarcoma
  9. 2 points
    Luth: jesus is real Ex-c chorus: prove it Luth: I don't have to. The bible already proved it. Ex-c chorus: so prove the bible is true. Luth: I don't have to. god already proved it. Ex-c chorus: prove that god exists. Luth: I don't have to. It's accepted a priori. Ex-c chorus: ... This clown has nothing more to offer but unfounded assertions, strawman arguments, and ad hominems. If this is the best that an "omnipotent" god has to offer, then jesus is as big a joke as Luth is.
  10. 1 point
    Hey, this is a funny yet scary article on Slate about the Christian nutters who are holding gatherings at the Trump International Hotel in DC and are holding Trump up as sent from God. Of course, a couple of their leaders are selling trinkets for up to $1144 that are "points of contact." This is worth a read: https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/07/trump-hotel-sacred-space-prophets.html?
  11. 1 point
    Good luck in going up against a presup. I've heard Matt Dillahunty talk about debating presup's and he says you just get No where. The idea of a debate is that good argument and evidence should change your mind. But if your position is presuppositionalist then evidence and argument is kinda moot.
  12. 1 point
    I am not planning to watch Hovind's video. Kindly sum up his key points in text form. I give it a 95%+ probability that it's a PRATT (point refuted a thousand times) and that it is not up to the Ex-C standard for evidence. (My own standard, by the way, is that I require a physical encounter with any purported god-like being, in the physical world. I reject all scripture and all apologetics, as they are mere philosophizing and not actual evidence.)
  13. 1 point
    I remember hearing a sermon once, or perhaps it was a story told during a class lecture by Professor Walke on the Old Testament which I was listening to on audio cassette. He tells of being invited to a liberal church to speak. When he goes to begin he asks them to open their bibles to such and such, but they respond they don't normally carry bibles. He says his message won't make a lot of sense if they can't follow along, so they go looking for where the stash of church pew bibles might be. Finally they find someone in maintenance who seems to recall having seen them once, and leads them to a locked cabinet in some basement where the old pew bibles had been locked away and forgotten. I believe this was all an intro to the story of the Torah being found in Josiah's time at which point it had just somehow been completely lost. When I was a Christian I loved collecting bibles. I loved getting various translations. Various styles (Thinline were my favorite), various covers (some with my name printed on them), various study notes included, just tons of variety. At my height I had at least 15 bibles that I purposely included in my collection, and likely quite a few more I accidentally collected or that belonged to my wife or children. I had a long road leaving the faith I won't outline here. Slowly over time things got moved or shifted around. I had a rather large set of biblical commentaries as I took bible study seriously but since they retain their value I eventually sold them all off one by one to raise money. But I never purposely disposed of a Bible. Well, I do remember at least at one point collecting a handful of them, notably two of the larger leather bound ones that had belonged to me and my wife (with our names engraved respectively) and putting them in an armoire I had kept in my detached garage. During this time I would occasionally still interact with Christians online or in ex-christian discussions and have need to look a verse up, but I likely did all of that online. At one point though I had need for a physical copy of the Bible, so I checked my bookshelf to find one of my many I must have floating around. I couldn't find one. I checked rooms. I checked closets. I checked the garage. I checked that armoire I KNOW I stashed at least 2. No, nothing, gone (reduced to atoms). Every Bible in my house had disappeared. It was just like Walke's story. The slow attrition of time had stripped them away one by one. In hindsight I probably did throw them away over time, or take a few to half priced books, or goodwill. I just wasn't really making a mental note of it at the time. Studying the bible from a secular standpoint is a minor hobby of mine. I've bought a few secular works, read maybe half with plans someday to visit the rest. I occasionally listen to Robert Price, read a blog here or there. I don't have the time, or focus, or overwhelming interest to make it a full time hobby. However when I do I often look things up so I finally after many years actually went and bought another bible, The New Oxford Anointed Bible (NRSV translation). I would have considered this total liberal trash when I was a believer and had no trust for the NRSV I thought was a liberal false translation (now I recognize it as the most scholarly and true to the text translation, gender neutral terms aside).
  14. 1 point
    Citsonga, folks, Luth is willing to back off from the issues going on in the side gallery and elsewhere which have become disruptive to a lot of members here. He's still interested in proceeding with the informal debate. But having said that, I think that in order to continue with the debate another direction may need introduced due to the inherent problems with using a presupposition oriented position. And I'm not sure how Luth will choose to try and rectify the problem. But I'm open to allowing him to continue trying. Especially because he's asked that he be allowed to continue and isn't giving up or throwing in the towel. So perhaps this isn't quite over yet. If we hit another brick wall, though, we'll be looking at the same problem again in new clothing. For the sake of lurkers who might think we're unfair if we shut him down prematurely, I think we ought to let him continue for now. If we do exhaust every position he can possibly take in this same way, the way of dead ends, what else can we do at that point? Luth or us? At that point, if we get there, fair is fair and the game may reach a complete dead end......
  15. 1 point
    @ag_NO_stic, for what it's worth, I miss having you around here more often. I get everything you wrote, and it's good that you are ready move on. You know where to find me if you want to talk.
  16. 1 point
    I'm not arguing for a ban, but I certainly agree with the above. Presuppositionalism is asinine. Anyone can presuppose anything, be it Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, atheism, Scientology, astrology, etc. Presupposing something to be true, ignoring all evidence to the contrary, and trashing everything else for not conforming to the presupposed assumption is NOT a path to truth. It's simply idiotic on every level.
  17. 1 point
    I have to agree with the above. The presuppositionalism is a dead end road. It's not evidence based and can't prove anything. The gigs up, basically. 5 pages of opportunity to come in strong with hard evidence should have left plenty of opportunity to do so. But no hard evidence was provided. Newbies, lurker's and whoever else can read through and contemplate the whole thing. If some new apologist comes forward and wants to continue on where Luth has failed, then I will hear them out unless they too devolve to mindless trolling and trying to aggravate members.
  18. 1 point
    If someone makes their whole life about Jesus for example, is it possible to have a relationship with them? Do you really want to be around a person who brings up religion constantly? I certainly don't. This is also applicable to individuals who bring up racism, sexism, patriarchy, etc every other conversation. When a person's identity is tied to their ideology to such an extreme, ideas that are intellectually repugnant in my opinion, there can't be a normal relationship. It's like being around an alcoholic, sometimes they're normal but most of the time they're drunk and unruly. To be fair, a good portion of the members here are moderates but the overall climate leans left.
  19. 1 point
    RC, sad to see you go, but glad you no longer have a need for 'medicine'. It's truly liberating when one finally breaks free of religion. On ideological differences, I largely agree with you that some differences are irreconcilable. However I by no means think that this means you can't have a good relationship with people with opposing views. I think of some members here where some of our opinions and beliefs are polar opposites yet we get on very well. I also think of my parents, whom I not only have differences with, but largely on worldviews, politics, religion we have the proverbial grand cannon between us. However I focus on what we do agree on rather than constantly spat about what we disagree on. Wishing you all the best for the future, and you know where to find us if you want to pop in and say hi. @ag_NO_stic Hey - been thinking about you and where you'd disappeared to. Good to see you are still hangin' round. Sad that you don't post any more. I did enjoy reading your well thought out positions, and replying if I thought I had something to offer. Certainly navigating religions and political views can be challenging and wearying. You should try being a centrist politically! Oh My!
  20. 1 point
    This has grown tiresome. I'm not much for banning people, but he's basically begging for it.
  21. 1 point
    So, has Luth-ifer fallen from heaven?
  22. 1 point
    For me it would actually be a boost in disposable income, especially after I get to age 65 and get a whole bunch of additional tax deductions. I'm currently putting about $600/month into regular and retirement savings accounts, after taxes and pension deductions. That leaves me about $1600 from my take-home, which pays for gas, car insurance, house taxes, utilities and food with some left over. (House and car are both paid off.) Between my work pension and Canada Pension Plan benefits I've already got over half of that $1600 covered, so essentially I have to come up with $800 per month to maintain the status quo after I retire. (Maybe less than $800 -- I won't have to buy transit passes to get to the office anymore.) If I get my savings and investments up into the $250K range, that'll do it.
  23. 1 point
    There is nothing that could cause me to believe in or follow a Christian god. Even if the dude came to me in scientifically provable form, he is such a sonofabitch that I want nothing to do with it.
  24. 1 point
  25. 1 point
    It sounds like most of the money would get put in some sort of bank or investment, so YOU don't really need it either...hmmmm...money is overrated in some ways I have a 12 year old SUV, it runs fine, don't need a new one. Husband has a 15 year old truck, runs fine, don't need one. No mortgage , no debt, so we are good here. We have traveled all over the planet before we bought this farm, so that's out too. Our house is a piece of crap with ridiculous utilities, but I honestly don't care ( we heat our water with a wood stove lol and only have electric in the kitchen). I guess I probably sound like I have a few screws loose but I don't get much enjoyment out of "stuff" . I have functioning internet and a 10 year old laptop, good enough. My father just called me and asked if I needed money. I told him no. He just sold a house and doesn't need the money. We are way way below the poverty line as far as the feds are concerned, but I don't care. We grow our food mostly, have very little bills ( car insurance is the biggest one), and don't need much. Oh and I truly hate jet skies!!! Those stupid noisy things annoyed the hell out of me when we lived in Florida and they would disturb the peace on the beach ( same with motorcycles, I hate them also, wished we could all go back to horse and buggies like the Amish sometimes)
  26. 1 point
    They may be in a family which has instituted a corporate belief system of Christianity. They have been taught to never question Christianity. Questioning results in sanctions against them or in some cases physical abuse. So they just lurk. Watching is not questioning, necessarily. Some probably just read without getting an account. Others may get an account but never post. People on some other forums use throw away accounts because their believer spouse or siblings will recognize them when they do post about the emotional manipulation their family engages in. Everyday (elsewhere) I read posts where someone wants to tell their parents they dont believe in Jesus but are afraid of the fallout. Some are already dealing with the fallout after spilling the beans. Sometimes somebody comes out to their spouse so now they are doing damage control with their marriage. Some people are so programmed by Christianity that they cannot conceive of letting a family member have their own freedom of thought. These type of Christians insist that family members 'believe' in Jesus through coercion, though they dont seem to think that real belief can't be forced.
  27. 1 point
    Thank you for acknowledging that you're a presuppositionalist. I'll list a few common presuppositions from a rationalwiki article on the subject and address them as a naturalist as an example of how you might communicate an honest, personal opinion while citing from other sources: A God exists. I doubt this, especially one that humans would be able to relate to. Spirituality exists. Humans (but not canines) have at least one soul. I doubt this, as personality and memories are tied so strongly to the brain and its health and survival. An afterlife (as distinct from reincarnation) exists. I doubt this, as personality and memories are tied so strongly to the brain and its health and survival. A universe (and its included creatures and critters[6]) implies creation. I disagree. The nature of the universe is one of death and chaos, not of life and intelligent design. Divine omniscience interacts in some mysterious way with free will. Though I have not managed to adequately resolve the tension between determinism and free will, I don't see anyone steering the ship. Human nature inclines to anti-social behavior[7] (sin). We all act selfishly at times but have evolved in community and tend to act altruistically at times as well. I can expound on my reasoning for coming to these conclusions and provide sources if you're interested. I would expect the same from someone else with a reasonable amount of integrity. And, no, Christianity did not invent the concept of integrity, nor do I consider it authoritative on the subject.
  28. 1 point
    Reminds me of one of my favorite memes: ”They say money can’t buy happiness, but it can buy a jet ski - and have you ever seen a sad person on a jet ski?”
  29. 1 point
    Pfffft… fake numbers. Its just you looking at the thread 5000+ times
  30. 1 point
    I think there is a difference between convincing me that God is real compared to God of the bible is real.
  31. 1 point
    Hey, you took that scripture out of context! And that one. And that one. And that one too...holy cow, there sure are a lot of scriptures taken out context that make God look sort of nasty. You know the more nasty scriptures there are, the more one starts to think the God being evil actually IS the context.
  32. 1 point
    It is great to see an encouraging post such as this. I am very new to the site and being an ex-Christian. I think testimonies such as this give a lot of encouragement to those of us who are just starting the recovery cycle!
  33. 1 point
    Nope. No evidence for any gods; therefore, IMO there has never been a "true word of God" in the entire history of this planet. I read the Bible over 50 years ago, without any interference -- just inquisitive me and your alleged deity. It never resonated with me, never appeared to be anything more than fables from a long-dead culture that bore little to no resemblance to my reality in Canada in the 1960s. If your god was trying to get a message through to me, the only part that got through was Matthew 25:35-40, and that sentiment is not exclusive to Christianity.
  34. 1 point
  35. 1 point
    That's a cute example but nothing compared to the medical study performed several years ago: https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html "Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found."

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