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  1. In this corner, weighing in as an agnostic atheist, with several title debates under his belt, the Panther from South Florida.... @Joshpantera And in this corner, coming on strong as a longtime believer in something even he doesn't fully understand, from somewhere in "Don't Mess With Texas ".... @Edgarcito LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!!! The rules are simple: each of you must state your case for superior spirituality based on what you actually believe. Last man standing will be proclaimed the undefeated spritual champ (of this match, anyway). The rest of yo
    4 points
  2. Did it never occur to you to ask, as Mrjukes21: "Hey guys, I'm really struggling here; can y'all help me out?" Because that is exactly what we are here for. Not only would that have been a simpler solution; it would also not have been a betrayal of the community's trust. Next time, dude, just ask.
    3 points
  3. Haven't been on these forums in awhile, thought I'd login just for the hell of it. Glad to see the site is still around and acting as a resource for those in need. Also, congratulations everyone in the US we avoided a complete fascist theocratic take over of the Republican party and we're poised to make it through this pandemic, it's been a fucking crazy past few years. Cheers to everyone here at the Ex-C forums, stay strong and never stop questioning!
    2 points
  4. So no, then. I am genuinely curious why some people think life is a journey, that it has a destination, that you're supposed to be "better" each step of the way. Why do some assume we all have "lessons" to learn and should "advance" spiritually through certain exercises and disciplines. Why do those who think we are so much in need of fixing think we can fix ourselves with yoga, meditation or something? Again, where is the evidence that we are on a journey, and one with a purpose?
    2 points
  5. It’s not what Mark said, it’s Walter intentionally mining old conversations for ill intentions... Now, back to the broadcast previously in progress...
    2 points
  6. · To comment on this point from the debate thread, my view is that spirituality is about real connection, whether between people, or between people and a noumenal reality, that is with the world as it actually is rather than just as it appears. · The problem with the literalistic thinking of mainstream Christianity, that tends to make it distinctly unspiritual in any genuine way, is that it interposes a dogmatic belief structure between us and the noumenal, and thereby constructs an idol in place of reality. · There certainly is some genuine spirituality in conv
    2 points
  7. ED, "..becoming heartwood via the intercessor part of the tree supporting the new growth....believers becoming the Cross, the Staff, the Tree itself." This reflects the limitations of christian spirituality that Josh is speaking of. Biblically the only way to become the heartwood or advance in christ is to Deny ones very nature. You have to deny what makes a person unique. What makes us..... us. How can one truly be spiritual and one with everything if they feel they need to become someone else. (IE Christ) How can one become enlightened without realizing that you are you and
    2 points
  8. Ed: Christianity specifically provides a standard and mechanism to know the greater, "God", through the human condition, through Christ. Josh: (paraphrased) We ARE the greater God. We are the Christ. .... Eastern philosophy provides a standard mechanism as well, not just to chase after or worship God as a being separate from yourself but to realize yourself AS God, AS the multiverse, AS the All That Is. Buddhism employs koans and zazen to leap past illusion. Advaita Vedanta uses self inquiry as a mechanism to know thyself...or rather dispel the illusion of t
    2 points
  9. Endgarcito3 does not know what his own stance on spirituality is. He will not make an argument for christian spirituality because he doesn't really subscribe to it. He simply finds some small comfort in his own interpretation of certain christian doctrines. He will never actually take a firm stance on anything; he never has, and seemingly never will, because his own beliefs are predicated on word salads and hickledy-pickledy acceptance of selected scriptures. In this current shadow-boxing match, he will deliberately misunderstand, obfuscate, bluster, demand Josh make, remake, a
    2 points
  10. Josh: there is an evident distinction drawn between an historical-factual reading of religious literature versus what is considerably "spiritual." Spirituality is living, breathing, individual, creative ... not following the rules of some book and being afraid of the sky tyrant. One size of spirituality does not fit all.
    2 points
  11. I do intend to set a standard. Human spirituality is that standard. Meaning the collective whole of human spiritual thinking and various levels of enlightenment have to all be factored in. How christianity fares against a comparative religious outlook. Because the point here is that christianity can be demonstrably inferior from a human spiritual perspective. This has to be a comparative world mythology and religion debate to make any sense. And also, End is subject to an evaluation of spiritual standard OF christianity. He is substandard in demonstrable ways as a chr
    2 points
  12. You made a mistake by adopting a second persona and coming in hostile toward the people who wanted to help you. But I think we as a group are willing to let bygones be bygones. Because we understand the confusion and turmoil experienced by people who are starting to deconvert. We were there once, some just recently. Not everybody who starts to deconvert is able to get through the process. Some go back to Christianity, whether happily or unhappily, and some get stuck in a rather miserable in-between state. Those of us you see here are the ones who made it through the process to become “Fu
    2 points
  13. The debate hasn't even started. And it ends with you completely losing your end of it. God has to be the whole, you struggle with this. But sort of understand the concept more than a lot of christians. An omnipresent god can not be anything short of everything in existence or else you lose omnipresence. Because you struggle with this spiritual insight, known in many cultures as the mystical realization, you will always remain at least one rung below anyone else in this world on the human spirituality latter who does understand the mystical realization. So
    2 points
  14. My conclusion is that Christianity is fake based on how this world works and all the flaws I see with Christianity. But I'm still having a lot of recurring doubts. I'm just trying to look for really good refutations against Christianity and I figured I can do that by using this account and disguising as a Christian. I'm sorry I offended everyone. This was the only way I can think of.
    2 points
  15. Look guys i have a confession to make. Do you guys remember MrJukes21? That's me. I made this account because I wanted to be assured that a voice in the desert and habermas were false. I wanted to be assured so bad that what they were saying wasn't true so I decided to make this account in order to see what was wrong in their arguments for god so that i can be reassured that they're wrong. Before I deconverted I watched a lot of videos by those two and their videos got stuck in my head. When I found this website I noticed that when I went to the lion's den all Christian arguments no matter ho
    2 points
  16. I would like to draw everyone's attention to this Wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea This page deals with the mental element of a person's intention to commit a crime; or knowledge that one's action or lack of action would cause a crime to be committed. Please look closely at the Latin phrase... actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea. This is translated as, 'the act is not culpable if the mind is not guilty'. Since I have already established that... (A) Adam and Eve were under god's law not to eat fro
    2 points
  17. Edgarcito seems to believe that everything would have been just fine in Eden if Adam and Eve hadn't disobeyed god. But he overlooks one huge problem. SATAN 1 Peter 5 : 8 8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Scripture tells us that Satan, in the guise of the serpent, had free access to Eden. If god had intended to keep Adam and Eve in Eden forever, why did he allow Satan in? God is all knowing and nothing is hidden from him. So,
    1 point
  18. This makes so much sense to me.
    1 point
  19. Yeah I get that. And a fist bump to you for your last post in the debate. I like it. I appreciate the more in depth posts into your own personal thoughts. Ya really need to stop all the vulgar language tho. I mean its probably not just ExChristian people looking at this site. And for the majority of Christians that might stray this way to see what we have to say, comments like those only help us. Now ultimately. Christian theology is BS. I know that. But I've also actually studied the Bible as a believer. Whether Christians want to believe I was actually saved or not. I'm telling
    1 point
  20. I think he was supporting me... which I appreciate.
    1 point
  21. vast might want an Authentic Christian Believer tag.
    1 point
  22. Could we reign in the insults and personal attacks in hopes of a more fruitful discussion?
    1 point
  23. In this thread Edgarcito wrote... I hold to my revelation that God's intent was law resulting in holiness. So how's your personal quest for holiness going, Ed? These are examples of god's holiness in your life? So we can't agree on anything really because we don't know a standard(s) well enough to define our agreement, but fucking magically we know the story outside of our subjectivity. FUCKING AMAZING. Which gives way to what does a room of omniscient individuals do....lol. God shit? Kind of a mind fuck...
    1 point
  24. I dont think anyone needs to support the notion that Christians have to sell all their shit for christ and give it to the church BS. Just to be spiritual as a Christian. Even if the Bible does promote it. Thats some straight up cult shit. A branch of my former church promoted just that during the world war period as well as later and stole a bunch of peoples property. I'm just very wary of promoting that train of thought on this forum because there are still cults like that out there.
    1 point
  25. Edgarcito calls himself a Christian, v_a_s_t. So, who is it who calls the shots in Christianity? Would that be Christ or would that be Edgarcito? Or do spiritual experiences just 'happen' in Christianity and aren't dictated by god? Not much of a creator, king, lord and ruler of everything if stuff just 'happens' is he?
    1 point
  26. This is because what you think of as spiritual doesn't even really classify as spiritual to the people in the world on the right side of the scale I've mapped out. Literalistic thinkers ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Symbolic thinkers Mainstream christianity-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------eastern and western mysticism So this is the very heart of the issue and debate. These people who don't read their script
    1 point
  27. Just around page 10 or 11. It shot off from there.
    1 point
  28. Thank you Josh. James 3 : 9 & 10. 9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. James 3 : 5 & 6. 5 Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole cou
    1 point
  29. I think if a person feels comfortable that a certain religion or form of spirituality works for them then they should strive to practice that religion or form of spirituality to the best of their ability, without interference from me; and extend to me the same courtesy of non-interference. If, after sincere questioning, you decide to return to christianity, you will still be welcome in this community, just as you would be welcome if you decide Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, or the 12 Steps is right for you. Each to their own; live and let live.
    1 point
  30. This isn't our first rodeo. People often do the very same thing. Sometimes as a joke or gag to mess with friends. Sometimes seriously to play devil's advocate and see what happens to the christian arguments. Which is why the staff picked up on it early on. We just want to make sure that you are of sound mind, that you didn't go manic or split personality on us. You can play devil's advocate without the need of false pretenses. If deconversion is your real status and you really want to be part of this ex christian community. Here's the thing, I'm currently
    1 point
  31. lol two of them! i hadn't seen yours, but now i do. 1976?
    1 point
  32. You don't need to disprove the claims made by proponents of the religion, they need to support them with some facts. Until they have evidence to back their assertions it is no more worthy of consideration than fairies in the garden.
    1 point
  33. This forward sets the stage for the scholarship that is to come from Joseph Campbell. Right away, there is an evident distinction drawn between an historical-factual reading of religious literature versus what is considerably "spiritual." Or going beyond the mundane experiences of time and space. And opening up to the transcendent factor. As in, reading through religious literature and agreeing or believing that it's historical and factually true never begins to even touch on anything "spiritual." and "transcendent" as it were. There's nothing "spiritual" about reading a history b
    1 point
  34. In light of this acceptance, you will both be allowed three (3) "phone-a-friends" to use at any time during the debate. To use a "phone-a-friend," simply tag the name of the member whose input you'd like, and then state the question, comment, or idea you want their input on. The tagged member will then be allowed to respond, in this thread, with one (1) post addressing the point in question. Sound fair?
    1 point
  35. I can also throw a few links at ya if you would like to read about what they found concerning the exodus, and the books of Moses. There was one Jewish apologist that wrote an article trying to refute that there was no exodus by saying it was a smaller scale migration. Which I guess is fine for some people. But to people who had faith in what the Bible said it is a big issue. A small group of people as apposed to millions is a Big contradiction. There are also some good articles out there concerning the true ruling power at the time of the supposed exodus to Isreal. Egypt was in pow
    1 point
  36. Bad MrJukes! Rips off my mask. I'm really Gary Habermas!
    1 point
  37. Your revelation is that god's intent was law leading to unthinking robotic obedience. How can law lead to holiness if its meaning isn't understood by the one it applies to? You can't achieve holiness without understanding how to get there.
    1 point
  38. I'm still trying to figure out what men's urea has to do with anything... Is it because they pissed out the parts of the apple they couldn't metabolize?
    1 point
  39. Astute observation, Josh. I wonder if Edgarcito has 'clicked' that he and I agree about Adam and Eve being under a law uttered from god's lips? I hope so and I've tried to let him know about this. Anyway, the last thing he wrote was that, like Arnie, he'd be back. Here's hoping. Thank you. Walter.
    1 point
  40. Speaking of eye's opened, that sort of represents crossing the christian / ex christian threshold. End-garcito here as gone on for years interacting with us, facing the contradictions, errors, and inconsistencies. Many times before this. But it hasn't ever "clicked." It's interesting because people with open eye's see these issues easily and clearly. The problems in Genesis for instance. The point Walter has had to finally outline in red ink. Let alone the prior issues of light before light sources existed and grass before photosynthesis and all of that. It hasn't "clicked" with En
    1 point
  41. Again, the Genesis story about Adam and Eve is simply poorly written literature, even when considering it as fiction. Believing it is actually true makes it comical.
    1 point
  42. Again, this is your interpretation of the Bible and your Jesus. Ok. You basically created your own Bible and Jesus. I mean the idea that you could be part of the Church and not believe in God is ludicrous from the standpoint of most of the documents of early Christianity like NT and apostolic fathers. You could as well pray to dr Seuss or Frodo from the Lord of the Rings. And from someone who says they do not impose orthodoxy on people, you sure seem very sure of your opinions and that other people are dead wrong in the fundamentals :). But Jesus, in the Gospels, when accused of not
    1 point
  43. It's that time of year again. I see endless Facebook posts from family and acquaintances. Insipid, saccharine memes about their risen lord and savior. I'm embarrassed for them. These are all "Christians" whom one would never suspect is "born again" or even a nominal believer in the Jesus myth. Yet around Christmas, but particularly around Easter, you'd think they were at the Last Supper busing tables and licking sandals. They're so stupid, willfully ignorant and two faced fake it makes me sick. It's a sad and bewildering time for me. Thanks for listening, the rant is over.
    1 point
  44. Well it's simple Dear Religious person. The reason we don't just shut up is best illustrated by the true story below that is happening as we speak. Most countries, including the US have a thing called the separation of Church and State. Well kinda, in the UK the Church of England still has massive state privileges, and in the US... well it's the land of the religious shitshow. I do apologise on behalf of NZ for sending Ray Comfort to you. However, lets both agree that the religious nutbags over there deserved Mr Banana man. As part of this separation of Church and stat
    1 point
  45. Why fuck with your creation if you 'love' it? Maybe if I see a rattlesnake I will throw doggy treats near it to see if my dog (who doesn't know any better) will try to get them. Then blame my dog for being stupid. Is it it so egregious that I, with more intelligence , tested my dog's smarts... why should I be arrested for cruelty to animals?
    1 point
  46. I honestly don t understand the OP. My probl with the Genesis story is that, as usually presented in judaism christianity and Islam, makes Adam and Eve look insane. Not just stupid. Stupid is me trying to repair a computer who won t start but not check if it is plugged. Believing a talking snake over your creator, benefactor, master and sustainer is insane. The same with the so called rebellion of Lucifer. An illuminated angel trying to take the place of its omniprezent omnipotent creator and sustainer. Insane. It is not even the level of wisdom of a foot fungus. And then Adam
    1 point
  47. I just posted this article "Sexual Anguish of Atlanta Suspect is Familiar Thorn for Evangelicals" to FB along with my views on Christian purity. May have opened the barn door this time, time will tell. https://news.yahoo.com/sexual-anguish-atlanta-suspect-familiar-140929602.html
    1 point
  48. But humanity has no autonomy in your story. "Do this or die" is not a genuine choice. "Do this or die and spend eternity in hell" is patently less of a genuine choice. We've been over this how many times now and you're still wrong about it. Dude!
    1 point
  49. At least she's a liberal Christian - I think living with a fundie mom would be way worse. Liberal Christians cherry pick the Bible and lots of them have pretty unorthodox beliefs that they go on having because liberal churches don't enforce dogma (or maybe she doesn't go to church at all). I was raised a liberal Christian and I had my own private beliefs too, similar to your mom. There's a name for thinking there's more than one way to God, it's called perennial philosophy, and I was like that, too. Ironically it's easier to remain Christian if you don't take the Bible literally, and a lot of
    1 point


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