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Showing content with the highest reputation since 12/23/2018 in all areas

  1. 10 points
    Miriam, my daughter and her wife harm no one. They contribute to society in a big way. My daughter now has "Dr" in front of her name. Her wife is currently attending medical school. They are law abiding, giving, caring, and compassionate. And yes they act on their "homosexual desires". So, please explain to this father why they deserve "punishment". Explain to me how a harmless behavior could be considered "immoral".
  2. 9 points
    @Axelle That’s awesome. Very happy for you. “What do I do?” If you choose to tell your parents about your situation then do so without apology or self guilt. You’ve got nothing to apologize or feel guilty about. You’re a grown ass woman with the world at her fingertips. You can’t control their reaction. Maybe they do flip their shit on you. Guess what? They will get over it. And if they don’t, that’s not your problem. Christianity teaches people to feel bad about who they really are. It teaches you to go around and apologize for literally just being yourself. Do you and fuck what anyone thinks about it. Period. To reiterate; be yourself and offer no apology for it. Sever the cords of self guilt that Christianity planted inside you. Cut ties with that mentality and accept every single aspect of yourself as best you can. You need not explain your actions or living situation to anyone, including your parents. Form and shape your own destiny based on what works for you. People have a hard enough time living their own life let alone trying to live yours for you. Do what thou wilt.
  3. 9 points
    When I was a practicing christian, I would not ever join a site like this except for one reason and that would be to try as hard as I could to win you all back to god. But if you all came at me with your testimonies, links and video's to watch....and I actually did read them and watch the video's with sincerity, I would totally understand deep, deep down, why you lost your faith because I was already questioning many, many things and every christian does doubt to some degree. (Why do you think they sell thousands of self-help christian books on the very topic of doubt? ) So 'worldly' information like what is posted here at Ex-c would have scared the crap right out of me....and I would have turned a blind eye and run for my life, back to where the christians would have reassured me that you guys were wrong. That's why I think so many christians who join this site don't take long to leave. I even believe that our dear friend 'End' knew the truth deep down inside even though he probably would deny it out of fear. It is 'fear' of gods' wrath. (for many people) This is why they cannot cut that last string. I see that all the time on this site when we have a newcomer. Fear of hell. Learning the truth ain't easy for some people. It wasn't for me.
  4. 7 points
    ConsiderTheSource, I just want to say thank you. As someone who contributes to society in many ways, but who has never quite fit into the standard "female" role, I find it very offensive when someone tells me that I should simply give up on sex altogether -- -- because someone else believes that their god disapproves and that I therefore have no right to sexual fulfillment. No, I'm not going to respect that POV. Not now, not ever.
  5. 7 points
    We were in a bubble, but that bubble burst. Moving past our preconceived notions and following the evidence where it leads is the opposite of being in a bubble. It took objectivity to be able to see that the Christian worldview ingrained in us is false. If we weren't objective, then we would still be following what we were taught to believe. It is precisely because of objectivity that we are ex-Christians.
  6. 7 points
    I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to address it by pointing out that many of us, myself included, have seen the Christian point of view. We used to believe it was true, just like you do. I was a fervent believer. Jesus/God/Christianity/Bible were my life. It penetrated every fiber of my being. My whole world was built around it, and I did not leave it lightly. Coming to the realization that what I'd believed my whole life is actually not true was a very excruciating experience. I wanted to keep the only worldview I had ever known, but it was impossible. If, perchance, you're interested in the details of my experience, my extimony is here: https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/31461-my-extimony/ The difference between where you are and where we are is that we've seen behind the curtain. We've learned enough to know that the Bible is not inerrant and Christianity is not true. Asking us to be open to going back to believing that stuff is like asking someone to go back to believing in Santa Claus. I don't mean any offense with that, but it's a worthy analogy. I cannot go back to believing the Bible is inerrant any more than I could choose believe in Santa, because the overwhelming weight of the evidence with both indicates that neither is true. Moving past our preconceived notions and following the evidence where it leads is not being closed-minded; it is being rational. I hope that you do find time to read the letter that I linked in an earlier post. It is very detailed and explains many (though not all) of the insurmountable problems with Christianity. Anyway, I thank you for being courteous here. I wish you the best with whatever life's journey brings you.
  7. 6 points
    She was too condescending throughout all her posts. I was done with (the troll) as soon as I started to see her replies. When anyone in real life or on-line starts talking 'word salad' (answers are all over the place without giving an answer and often will blame the other person) I know they are not one bit interested in helping or in listening, I can easily walk away now and call bullshit. Reminds me of Trump. Brainwashed and dumb. As much as it stills hurts sometimes, I'm glad the veil came off my own dumb eyes. If anyone truly wanted to know how we felt or why we left christianity, they can sit here and read the testimonies for months (like I did) before breaking into our site and stirring things up. I don't like shit disturbers anymore.
  8. 6 points
    I have no need to come up with any criteria because: 1. An omniscient god would know what it would take to make itself known to me. 2. An omnipotent god would be able to do that which would make itself known to me. The ball is in god's court and mine is wide open.
  9. 6 points
    I had some hopes, but it seems we are playing chess with a pigeon once again. But I'm probably just a bit worked up and have a closed mind.
  10. 6 points
    Thanks Miriam! I appreciate the dialogue 😃 These discussions definitely raise the question of how we derive our moral principles. You are consistent in your position that if the Bible says that God said or did something, then it is, by definition, "good". So, in the instance of I Sam 15, the killing of the nursing infants must be deemed ultimately "good", otherwise God would not be omnibenevolent and/or biblical inspiration/inerancy must be rejected. What I sincerely believe is that virtually all Christians FIRST arrive at a belief that God is "all good" - a key part of a doctrinal package that we are taught. THEN, at later points in time, one by one, we encounter these passages that strike against our better moral judgment and cause at least a low level of cognitive dissonance. Because, by the time we encounter these rarely-preached sticky points, we have already bought into the belief system (and that belief system has hooked us with the promises of surviving death, escaping torment, and achieving external bliss, given us a community, meaning, etc), our response is to RATIONALIZE the moral conflict - to find an explanation for why that thing that doesn't ACTUALLY fit our worldview somehow really does. As you can see, you did this with your very good question, "why not save the babies?" - for which you posited an explanation to satisfy your mind. I think your own very good moral judgment kicked in - that it really would be better to save the babies. And if we're honest, aren't there a million ways God could have saved them? They could have been raised by the Israelites and grown up in the ways of God. They could have been early examples of international adoption, something modern Christians promote... Anyway, I think that once we have bought into the belief system FIRST, then we rationalize every piece of conflicting data thar we later encounter in the bible (and in the world around us) until we have many. We do this because we cannot conceive that the whole system might be flawed. I can think of countless rationalizations I made as a Christian to questions such as: How come we don't see miracles like regrown limbs any more? Why aren't heaven and hell mentioned in the bible before the Babylonian exile? If demon possession is a real thing, why don't doctors diagnose it or courts accept it as a defense? Why doesn't God speak audibly? Why do Christians get divorced as frequently as non Christians? Why didn't the bible condemn slavery or child abuse? Why wasn't Lot's offering of his daughters to be gangraped condemned? Why didn't Jesus return during the lifetime of his hearers like he promised? If I was having a heart attack, why would i want the ambulance to take me to an atheist doctor rather than a pastor's house? If we have a soul that is separate, why do we perceive nothing when were unconscious? Why do our personalities change with brain damage? Why do we have the same genetic error as chimpanzees that stops us from syrhesizing vitamin C? Why does our DNA carry the same retroviruses in the same places as chimpanzees? Etc. There are many more. My point is that the Christian must keep rationalizing away so much evidence - to whittle away at a square world to keep it fitting into a round world view. For the thoughtful and inquisitive among us, we reached a point where intellectual honesty forced us to recognize what had been staring at us all along: the Christian worldview just does not hold up in light of both the biblical record and the reality we experience. And we are willing to let go of our hopes of eternal life in order to live this life as truly and fully as we can.
  11. 6 points
    We don't really care what you say sweetie. We have had hundreds of christians on this site. Our hope in posting back to you is to deconvert you! We all know our bibles. I already know what you would say about my letter. I already know what you believe because I believed it also. I studied the bible for many, many years. The basic problem most of our christians friends have that join our company is that they have a hard time with the fact that none of us believe that the bible is 'gods' word' anymore and you still do. That's why we can't take the 'holy' book you are quoting from seriously. So keep having fun sweetie. We really don't bite but if you use too much bible bull, you're going to get back real reasoning. We live by evidence and facts. You live by faith in a man-made, ancient book that man wrote. I wasted my whole life on this fable. (hug)
  12. 5 points
    It is coming up on a year since I left the faith and became agnostic in my view of religion, and specifically Christianity. In the past few months, I had a few conversations with family members and co-workers who are still in the faith about the cerebral problems I have with cogency of Christian theology, science versus biblical narratives, higher biblical criticism, as well as lower criticism, and through it, I have picked up a few trends I keep running into. Usually when I start honing in on various problems, the biggest rebuttal I hear is, “it is all about faith/trust in Jesus.” This is especially true whenever I start discussing church history regarding differing views on marriage versus celibacy, poverty versus riches, defining sin, and etcetera. I take issue when I hear it is all about just having faith, because all Christian groups do not actually believe this is the bottom line, there is always a catch. Let us be frank, after you “have a little talk with Jesus,” then you need to conform to a certain set of rules depending on which denomination you are dealing with. If it was really just about having trust in Jesus to save you, then why do people get so bent about sex, movies, language, ethics, and the rest of the gambit? At the end of the day, it cannot be just about having faith, and nobody really believes that. It is speaking out of both sides of the mouth. This kind of double talk is rampant when I am in these discussions with believers. My favorite times are when they retreat to ambiguity, or will start saying the Bible does not teach mainstream orthodoxy beliefs. For example, I have had a few discussions with a colleague at work who constantly contradicts himself sentence by sentence, to rationalize his belief system. The other day I had him cornered in his argument when I asked him why an all loving, all knowing, omnibenevolent, omnipresent, God who supposedly hates sin so much he is going to put sinners on a spit and roast them for eternity, would actually create the capacity to sin in the first place. My thought on this was that if we take a really high view of a constant theme in the Bible, it is that God is just super upset about sin, rebellion, whatever you want to call it. If that is indeed the case, I find it extremely myopic that said God would then create creatures even capable of committing sin. I know the typical apologetic response will be, “freewill.” Yeah, that is great, but surely a solution would be to create beings with freewill who are only ever able to make choices that fall in the domain of acceptable to YHWH. Considering this further, if YHWH created everything, then he also created the capacity for his creation to sin, then he must not hate sin that much; for if he did, then the capacity for sin would not exist. Created beings could only ever choose “good.” How would that not be a win-win for everyone? Whenever I bring this argument up, I can see the mental squirming. My colleague said, “The Bible does not teach that.” When I asked him “what,” he basically stated the Bible does not teach that God contains all those characteristics I stated above. I could only give him a blank stare because he knows that is not what he believes, nor any other Christian you talk to, and he only said it to get out of a tight spot. Maybe my argument is flawed and I have not considered other possibilities, but it just strikes me odd that the God of the Bible who hates sin so much that he is willing to torture people, who he supposedly loves so much, but he never took steps to make sure such a horrific scenario did not play out.
  13. 5 points
    Hi, Miriam, I haven't been around much lately so I don't know what's going on, but as far as my own point of view, you can check out my blog right here on Ex-C called Be Ready Always to Give an Answer. You might want to start with the oldest post and read forward in time. I'm a former Christian who didn't realize the problems with the Bible until I was over 50 years old. Then one day I noticed something, and really started investigating. It's not that I wasn't a Bible student before... I was! What I've realized since then was that I had always studied the Bible with the intent of either proving it true, or, more often, just to try to understand how I was supposed to live and to worship. It had never occurred to me to try to find out whether it was true or not. Having been a member of a church that taught that the Bible was 100% true and 100% consistent from beginning to end, it didn't take long for me to deconvert once I realized that premise wasn't true. Anyway, it's all there on the blog if you're interested. Good luck!
  14. 5 points
    Welcome This is a good place to be. The process of deconversion can be quite stressful, especially where family is involved. Rest assured that you're not alone...pretty much everyone on this site have had somewhat similar experiences. The "testimonies" forum offers some insights into the experience. Religion's greatest enemy is rational thought...so keep thinking.
  15. 5 points
    Exactly this. Print this out and put a copy on your mirror and refrigerator door. Maybe keep one in the car as well. You can get no better advice.
  16. 5 points
    I taught General Biology and Anatomy & Physiology for a while, at a local college. When students would complain about the subject being too difficult to understand, I would say, "If a dumb Redneck from out there where the foxes fuck can understand this stuff, then y'all civilized city-folk ought to have no problem with it." Didn't take long for the students to start referring to me as The Redneck Professor.
  17. 5 points
    This entire thread from start to finish should be a teaching lesson for how to spot evangelistic tactics 101. It was obvious to me from the second she showed her face on the intro forum that she was here to evangelize. Then I came over and read this thread and it really pissed me off. You guys opened up and shared your heart, personal stories, and researched materials only to have her dismiss most of it, offer disingenuous thanks, and play the victim all at the same time. Pretty impressive actually. **Moderator, quick question: can I say “fuck you” to this lady? Or would that be offensive? Never mind. Hold on let me address her personally before I continue: Lady, take your deceptive tactics and victim-hood mentality and f*** off (smiley face emoji). Oh just kidding sweeety my dear I meant no offense only joking lol. Here to be open and listen (smiley face haha emoji and praying hands). Makes me want to puke 🤢 🤮 I absolutely hate seeing good people throw out advice and info to someone who could give 2 shits. Ugh, sorry, ever since I left god and shit on the holy spirit, my ungodly language just will not stop. So sorry. Here let me start over @Miriam we got off on the wrong foot. I’d love to share my new views on Christianity with you... there is no god and ... HAAAAAIL SATAN!
  18. 5 points
    1. No. Christ pre-destined me to live here. All those who do not know Christ are vessels of dishonor as Paul told us in the Bible. 2. I pray for the lost souls of all those going to hell who don’t know Jesus Christ. 3. Jesus said He is the truth so no I don’t pray with an open mind for truth. I’ve already got the truth. 4. As I just stated, Jesus said he was the truth. What more do I need to know? 5. I have all the faith in the world in Jesus statement to be true. He-is-the-truth. Why would I go outside the church for answers to the bible or my faith? We know as Christians that we are called to come out and be “separate” from the world. So no I’m not going to seek worldly counsel on the bible or my faith. I might as well ask Satan for advice while I’m at it.
  19. 5 points
    Isn't this question more like what would it take for me to believe again? In that case I don't really think there's anything. I've sort of crossed bible god off the list of plausible gods. I've actually gotten to the point where I don't even really know what a god really is or how I might actually identify one. Just because something says it's a god and does impressive (ie. miraculous) things does that really mean anything? What I mean is does that mean I should adore this thing? Worship it? Does that mean it's a god? Does that mean it somehow imparts a spirit in me and that there's an afterlife? Does that mean this thing can help me when it comes to this afterlife or does it only have power in the here and now? I really have no answers to these questions (and more) and it would take quite a bit for me to actually accept that some creature is a god in all these respects. mwc
  20. 5 points
    The bible is a collection of fictional literature. It has some nice, fluffy passages that can pacify some people during times of stress. It also has some passages that no civilized person could possibly justify as being inspired by a loving, caring god. I haven't read it or used it for comfort in many years, simply because it doesn't represent anything good or comfortable for me. To me, it represents the evil that stole my childhood.
  21. 5 points
    @Miriam Just pondering on your statements that we are close minded because we do not accept your claims, and more broadly the claims of Christianity and in fact any religion. May I ask if I'm close minded for not accepting the hypothesis that the earth is flat? And are you close minded for not accepting Allah, Vishnu or Zeus?
  22. 5 points
    When people examine a preponderance of evidence and form a conclusion, based on that evidence, they do not have a closed mind. They have the truth.
  23. 5 points
    It's probably a lot to handle for a Christian that enters this forum, but one should not enter it expecting only polite feelings and nothing else. Yes there is anger here for several reasons, and when a christian posits their position, there are going to be rebuttals, angry ones included. If one cant handle this and takes it personally it's best not to be on these forums. This is a forum for recovery, and many are recovering from abuse and mistreatment and feelings of betrayal and bitterness. Christians on here may not realize that their comments, as innocent as they are in simply stating their own position, are inadvertantly provoking some to reaction and the feelings are going to come out.
  24. 5 points
    Perhaps that is because you have an agenda here and we don't. I neither want nor need for you to accept my view of life; but, per The Great Commission, it is imperative that you "make disciples", "let your light shine", "bear witness." In other words, whether you're willing to admit it or not, you're here to preach and try to win souls. I'm not sure why you have such a hard time admitting that, given that jesus said if you were ashamed of him, he'd be ashamed of you. But the present fact is, you want something from us; we want nothing from you. If you read my testimony with any sincerity, then you know it was a brutal, four-year travail. It was the destruction of my entire life. I would not wish that experience on anyone; and, I think most of the others here feel the same way. We have adopted and embraced the philosophy of "live and let live." Not many here would actively seek to deconvert you; for most had experiences as calamitous as mine. Remember that you came to our website. Although we welcome you here, you should keep in mind that we did not invite you, we did not come to you, we did not actively seek you out. You came to us. And we are not responsible for you. You are. If you feel that certain members, myself included, have been rude to you, check your own actions and take the responsibility of owning them. If you feel that some of us, myself included, have been more abrasive than necessary, check your own motivations and take responsibility for them. You will find that most people here, myself included, will literally do anything within our power for anyone who needs our help. But we have also learned that we have to take responsibility for our own lives, actions, words, thoughts, and deeds; because there is not a magical sky-daddy to offer us absolution. We expect the same from those who come in to visit with us. With the proper approach, you will find many people here, myself included, who are more than willing to help you, answer your questions, offer our perspective, and even engage in sincere and rational debate with you. But you are responsible for your presence here. If you make a claim, you are responsible for supporting that claim with evidence and sound reasoning. If someone makes a point, or counterpoint, you are responsible for accurately and honestly representing that point in your rebuttal. If you intimate that someone made a certain statement, you are responsible for providing the quote. Personally, I still have doubts about your sincerity here. But I'm willing to help you out as much as I can, while you're here. These pointers I'm offering you now will help you to be taken more seriously by the good folks here, myself included. A modicum of humility wouldn't hurt you, or me, for that matter. You don't always need to have an answer for everything (again, neither do I). It's okay for us both to say we don't know. But, if you're genuinely here looking for our answers, quit saying you already know how we think or what we believe. You really don't. You've never been an ex-christian; but every single one of us has been a christian. I hope this helps, TRP
  25. 5 points
    Hi, sorry to hear you had some nasty comments, I think you are right in saying most of us on here are respectful but certainly there are a range of people and some have a lot of anger towards religion. Hopefully you have had a lot more positive responses this time, so perhaps you'll have a better view of the community from this thread. I'm definitely in the Christian-lite category, quite different to many of the people here who have decades of belief. I had bible studies at an early age (starting at 5) but it never felt right. I knew I was too young and didn't have the information to understand what I was being taught. I didn't understand why I wasn't feeling as swept up in the stories as many of my classmates. I now know it was because they came from Christian households who had taught them from birth that these ideas were fact, while I came from a more relaxed, blended idealogy upbringing. This just left me with a hole, a gap in my knowledge that I longed to fill. So at around age 10 I decided I would throw myself into getting a better understanding of the subject from every angle and what followed was decades of research. I read books, attended speeches, watched videos and spoke to numerous people. My plan had been to list reasons for belief vs unbelief, then run those ideas passed the other side to see where the counter arguements lead. Time and time again science would give both answers and explain how those answers were reached, while the believers answers kept ending with gaps and unsatisfactory conclusions. One of the biggest subjects for me was Noah's flood. The list of problems was so extensive and so immediately obvious as to leave me using that as my prime query. The answers recieved were so often hand wave affairs, miracles heaped on miracles, "God can do it cos He can do anything" or "I don't know but the bible is true so it must have happened that way". Science kept supplying calculations of ship strength, food requirements, space per animal, time for each person's workload, waste removal etc. I did come across Christians who had simply written off the story as hypebole, or a local flood. An event that was miraculous but didn't have to break the laws of physics. This response didn't fit with the churches teachings or really require God at all, but it did highlight the divisions within Christianity. That was one of the big take aways, that Christianity doesn't agree on many subjects. Should women teach or be priests? Are fantasy movies evil? Will God punish unbelief with eternal damnation? Which version of the bible is correct? Which books should be accepted as part of cannon? Between the protestant vs Catholic wars, the schism between east and west, the thousands of denominations and dozens of different bibles, Christianity has no sign of unity. If the church could have a united front it would be very powerful, but after thousands of years they are more divided than ever. As an outsider looking in it is very hard to feel anyone actually knows what they are talking about when their own leaders can't agree on the most basic tenants of faith. That's basically my journey in a nut shell, a long search for answers and finding all answers from one side and nothing from the other. I would say I was agnostic from 10-20, then finally admitted to myself I was an atheist. That was 20 years ago and new arguments seem a rare thing these days. All the best with your own journey through life. Cheers