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  1. 5 points
    Then you are letting your anti-theist attitude endanger your loved ones. There are plenty of good Christians, plenty who are respectful and decent people. To fail to ask for help and instead rely on a known offender is a terrible decision to make. Even if you are worried about indoctrination, that takes months if not years of repetition to become fixed in a mind. Your child coming into connect with religion isn't like a disease they can catch.
  2. 5 points
    I think teaching kids to be atheists and god-haters is quite likely to be counter-productive. Teaching kids about the various religious claims, and above all teaching them to become critical thinkers, will likely have the desired results.
  3. 4 points
    As I often tell the younger guys, you may not believe me but I guarantee the day will come when you don't give a shit about what others think, and you will also have occasion to sit on your own balls. Believe it or not.
  4. 4 points
    I think this is a main point of disconnect. Many or most Christians are indoctrinated into thinking there is only "Jesus" and "Not Jesus" and you're either with him or against him. Logical, alternative and neutral positions are simply not recognized; you are doing Satan's work. The neutral act of not indoctrinating a child into the Jesus cult is seen as active evil.
  5. 4 points
    Sorry that really sounds like a Christian line not an atheist one. Atheists don't say "god haters" because we don't believe He exists. You don't hate the non-existent.
  6. 4 points
    So far no reaction at all from the SIL. Of the two posts I've made, one said "Thanks for educating me" and the other said "That's terrifying". Meh, it's a start.
  7. 3 points
    Funny you have time to read back that far in the forums, and to respond to me; but not to meet josh's challenge.
  8. 3 points
    My wife an I purchased a newer car for her a few years ago, a Mercedes E350 (nice car BTW). After the purchase both of us began to notice many other Mercedes E350, E320, etc. on the road. Why is that not a coincidence?
  9. 3 points
    Philosophy is questions that may never be answered; religion is answers that may never be questioned.
  10. 3 points
    Thats just silly. Religion is taught, being a car is not. That is the basic idea, no one comes to religion without being taught what it is, what it means and how you are meant to act. For example African tribesmen will never come to Christianity without missionaries teaching them. If Christianity was not taught for a generation it would cease to exist. So yes Christian families teach Christianity to their kids, while muslim families teach islam. This results in the regional split in religions that we see. God isn't converting muslims and Allah isn't converting Christians. If you don't teach any religion then people will by default end up atheist or agnostic. I see indoctrination as a form of teaching, where you tell someone facts about reality and convince them that it is true by showing it is the accepted answer to the group. When your parents, siblings, family, teachers and all friends and adults all say X is true, then we are wired to accept that as fact. No evidence required. If everyone tells you Zenu is the all powerful alien overlord and we need to devote our lives to stopping him, you will accept that. It then takes a reality wrenching change to be able to dislodge that idea. If someone tells you that you are wrong, what they are actually saying is your parents, family, teachers, friends and everyone you respect is wrong. That is a massive hurdle to overcome. Atheist indoctrination would be teaching your kids why religion is wrong and convincing them of that prior to them understanding reality. Some families will absolutely do that, but most go the other track and simply do not discuss religion at all. With no forced perspective you aren't Indoctrinating any idea. So yes atheists can but most don't. Like most questions its a non-binary answer.
  11. 3 points
    As a general rule, atheists and agnostics tend to encourage their kids to be freethinkers, circumspect, and draw conclusions based on evidence and logic. These are different than the tactics often employed by the religious: coercion, manipulation, guilt, shame, and sometimes even physical punishment for expressing skepticism. Thus is why atheists, as a general rule, do not consider themselves guilty of indoctrination.
  12. 3 points
    I've found myself holding my tongue rather a lot lately. Many of my pagan and non-Christian friends on FB are mystified at the anti-abortion laws being passed in the Bible Belt, and are asking a lot of questions about the male-dominated views. I've kept from responding for a while, but today decided to start giving some insights into the mindset of believers (invisible kingdoms of angels and demons and such). My sister-in-law is going to notice and likely chime in about my words. I really can't be silent about it any more when people are trying to make sense out of what they are seeing, and they really have no clue how bizarre the personal worldview of believers is, and how much it affects the laws and culture of our country. My motivation for silence has been to be an influence on my young niece and nephew, but they are in their teens now and I rarely see them. I want to educate people about the mindset of serious believers, and why it is important to understand why they do what they do. This is one way to start unplugging the undeserved default respect and honor that church has in the culture.
  13. 3 points
    I've never found belief to be a choice. Either I find something convincing, or I don't. Threatening me with harm might justifiably upset me, but it won't make something more believable.
  14. 3 points
    jesus said that he who is not for me is against me. This kind of black and white thinking leads people in general, and religionists in particular, to falsely dichotomize scenarios that often have multiple possibilities. More circumspect people are immediately aware of the potential for more than two options. In truth, a person could be for Buddha without being against jesus, as their teachings are often in harmony with each other. In the jellybean example, someone could have cut one jellybean in half and put only half of it in the jar along with the rest of the jellybeans. This would render the total number of jellybeans as a fraction, which would be neither odd nor even. There is more than black and white in this life. It is important to open one's mind to the multiplicity of potential outcomes in every situation, as a closed mind consistently limits one's own options. Put succinctly, there are no gray matters for those with no gray matter.
  15. 3 points
    Matthew 23:9 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. So? I think a name change is your only option.
  16. 3 points
    A logical argument that is based upon a faulty assumption can only lead to equally faulty conclusions. Your initial assumptions are a) that jesus existed, b) that he was all that the bible cracks him up to be, c) that he indeed rise from the dead, and d) that John (among other witnesses) supported the purported messiahship of jesus. Until you can demonstrate that these assumptions are not faulty, you cannot assert that faith in these claims is logical. Your assertion remains unfounded; as did your assertion based on the faulty assumption that I believe faith to be a blind wish.
  17. 3 points
    Every single post from you, that I have seen, does nothing more than attempt to ridicule, belittle, and demean. You are not interested in an open discussion. You are not interested in an exchange of ideas. You are not even interested in defending Christianity - or anything for that matter. You are either a very angry person or just incredibly immature. Whatever your game I am not interested and will no longer respond to your posts. Have nice life (assuming you have one) and please seek professional help.
  18. 2 points
    Hang in there, sweetheart. Take a deep breath. A lot of us when we arrived here at Ex-c were so confused, we didn't know which way to turn. You have been through a lot. You need time to sort things out. If I were you (while I was in the hospital) I would read as much on this site in the ''Testimonies'' and ''Ex-Christian life'' as you can and you will soon see how many of us have handled the different traumas and problems in our lives. And you will also see the problems with our believing christian family and friends and how we are handling it. You need to see that you are not alone. Just read and don't try to figure it all out right now. All you need to do right now is let the hospital stabilize you. Then you can begin to sort things out when you are feeling better. Don't try to 'fix' anything right now. Don't try to convince anyone right now of why you have become a non-believer. Come back here when you get out and post, post, post all your feelings and fears. Most of us can relate. You are not alone. Get healthy for your son. Get healthy for you. Non-believers are a minority and we are generally out-numbered by believers everywhere. So don't fret. You are not alone in this!! The number of non-believers is growing every day. New members arrive here all the time in such confusion. ( I was one of them) So don't try to convince anyone of anything. (unless you can find a non-believer therapist in the hospital) Stay as calm as you can and come back here and we might be able to help you sort things out. Don't even try to convince your husband of anything right now. Breathe honey. Losing your faith is like a death. It was for me also. You are grieving many things right now. You are grieving the loss of your god and that can be scary. I couldn't imagine what life would be without a god?? I had to go through a huge grieving period before I could get my head together completely. I personally made many mistakes when I was a christian and I had to grieve all of that also. But I stayed with this site for several years now... and now religion has lost its power over me and I live a functional life. More functional than I have ever been in my life. And I have forgiven myself for all the mistakes I made during the time I was a christian. Some struggle for a while and some come through it fairly easy. You keep reading. Stay away from anything that will confuse you more. We here at Ex-c understand most of what you are going through. So hang tight and get better. Rest your weary mind for a while. I give you the biggest hug in the world today. ((hug)) P.S...... and yes....you may curse all you want!!
  19. 2 points
    You're in buddy, of course. No problem. Yes, I actually like having William and LuthAMF give two christian opinions to my non-belief opinions. I only want to limit it to us three so there's no distraction. But certainly start up a side thread because I don't want to deprive others of getting a chance to engage the issues too. That's actually a very good idea.
  20. 2 points
    There's a few possibilities and the answer is probably a combination of them. When people get themselves into an adrenaline fueled mania the body has a range of reactions from racing heart to blood pressure changes, such things can lead to flushed warm feelings or fainting. The second group are those convinced that they should feel a certain way. Whether it be a form of hypnosis, self delusion or just attributing any symptom to what you are hoping to feel, we are quite capable of tricking ourselves. The third group are those who don't feel anything but due to peer pressure will play along to fit in. Whether you want family or teacher approval, or simply don't want to be the odd one out, people will say whatever they know the group wants to hear.
  21. 2 points
    25 crowns that he won't even properly respond to Josh's points. Instead we will see more of the same. 100 Nilfgardian crowns that he won't get past Genesis 1:1.
  22. 2 points
    You have been threatening to show us the "real" you for awhile now. The cat's out of the bag so you can't switch gears and fool us. You are a typical apologist with no new angles and no evidence, only charges levied against your "enemies." So you can bugger off now or hang around for the abuse, it's up to you. What you people seem to forget is that virtually everyone here has been where you are; we are former pastors, teachers, scholars and devout believers for years. Most of us have made all the apologetic arguments and did the mental gymnastics until we couldn't avoid seeing the emperor's new clothes any longer. < Am I suppose to be shaking in my boots now? > More like "knock the dust off your sandals."
  23. 2 points
    Precisely what I have done with Redneck Jr. and Redneck Đàn em. I might add that Jr. is fascinated by Hindu deities, while Đàn em tends toward an agnostic approach to Buddhist philosophy. I am proud of them both.
  24. 2 points
    Dude, you have 8/10 of the worlds deadliest snakes and 7/10 of the worlds deadliest spiders. Giant crocs, breeding great whites, killer jellyfish and those terrifying drop bears. How do you not live in fear when your lizards are the size of dogs and your dogs steal babies?
  25. 2 points
    And god wanted to be one of us so badly that he became a motherfucker to do it.
  26. 2 points
    This is quite different from indoctrination. To equate the two is intellectually dishonest. Yet here we have a "true christian" presuming himself equipped to teach atheists about atheism. Yes, it is disparaging; that was the intent. And "tactics" is an entirely appropriate term for describing the methods of indoctrination. "Virtues", however, is your term, not mine, for the difference in approach between critical thinkers and the religious. It's good that you recognize them as virtues, in theory at least; perhaps someday you can recognize them in practice as well.
  27. 2 points
    Reminds me of the old saying, Atheism is a religion like "off" is a TV channel.
  28. 2 points
    It's mythology, allegory and not factual or historical. Trying to make sense of the story is fruitless and frustrating.
  29. 2 points
    My personal opinion is that "getting them while they're young" shows a complete lack of faith on the part of believing parents/care givers. I once heard a pastor quote a statistic that if kids hadn't accepted christ by the age of 19, then it was likely that they never would. But if jesus really is all he's cracked up to be, shouldn't he be able to "save" them later in life, irrespective of childhood indoctrination or lack thereof? Indoctrinating children at an age when they are not yet able to think and reason for themselves is, in my opinion, a subconscious admission that their faith in jesus really isn't that strong. They don't really believe that jesus is "mighty to save"; so they have to do all the work themselves to ensure the kids get saved and stay that way. Real faith would be to pray over the kids and do nothing more, trusting jesus to do the rest.
  30. 2 points
    God needs money because he spent his trust fund making the universe. It should be obvious his plans aren't very well thought out. mwc
  31. 2 points
    This is understandable to some degree. Those of us who were born into christian homes don't have any recollection of anything else. I always realized and understood that my family was simply doing what they thought best according to what they sincerely believed. Even when I stopped believing it, I still understood that they 'know not what they do,' so to speak, when they are brainwashing others. They themselves are completely brainwashed and that just seems normal and correct. I had the luxury of setting forward a strong enough influence towards skepticism and non-belief that nearly everyone joined me in it eventually, given enough time to digest it all and come to their own conclusions. Which in the end, were merely obvious conclusions that anyone can make if they're honest with themselves. This so called "TRVTH," just doesn't add up in many ways. Brainwashing is always brainwashing, though, regardless of whether or not they realize what it is they're doing. Yes, that is very hypocritical of them to try and hinder or stop another person's so called god given freewill. And very courageous and difficult for them (us) to leave their respective churches.
  32. 2 points
    Hey everyone, Since the last time I shared my back story in detail was probably years ago, I suppose a little summary is in order before I share what went on today. I'm in my mid-forties, adopted, raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. I got in a lot of trouble as a kid, did very poorly in school, and was never very good at typical good Christian Behavior. As a young adult, I moved out of my parents home and began to pursue a career as a songwriter and professional musician. I spent a couple of years actually paying the rent and feeding myself playing music and not having any other job. It was of course, not glamorous, but it was exactly what I wanted to do with my life, even after I had heard all the speeches about how unlikely it was that I would succeed at such a choice. I had a few opportunities to take giant steps forward in my music career, but for reasons that I am only just now beginning to understand, I undermined and sabotaged my work by not following through. Fast forward to my mid-twenties. I got married to a woman that I had known since I was a child, and had dated for almost seven years previous to our marriage. I decided, in a misguided attempt to conform my life to what I imagined my parents wanted from me, to quit playing music and settle down, or so I thought. I moved to the southeastern United States and went to Bible College, with an eye toward a degree and a position as a preacher or evangelist in a church somewhere. I involve myself in contemporary Christian music, on the local church level and also in an experiment to see whether my chops and experience would translate to the kind of thing that the Christian music industry recognizes as Talent. Lots of ups and downs, a few Church changes and more than a few struggles and arguments. What I did not realize, at least not to any real extent, was that I had attempted to conform myself to the imaginary standards of a god, and to the pressures and expectations of religious community, all for the sake of building some false sense of security oh, so that I would not have to fear testing my potential at the things I was really good at. I came to realize recently, after two bouts with severe, crippling depression, that I could no longer pretend that I believed or even tolerated the nonsense that had come to Define my wife's daily activities and inner life. Anyway, fast forward again, this time to this morning. Over the last couple of weeks, I had a sudden Resurgence of creativity after years of writer's block and near-total disinterest in my musical creative processes. I knew that I had to pursue this flow of creativity, and I had to be free of the self-doubt and fundamental self mistrust that typifies Christian religion. I told my wife this morning things that we had already discussed, things like the idea that we love one another, but are no longer in love, because we both silently understand that our lives are inevitably going in, and are meant to go in, two very different directions. I explained to her that it did not matter whether she was willing to continue to imagine that we still had a married relationship. Ultimately, I knew that her adherence to the Bible as the word of a god mint that regardless of how she tried to ignore it, her religion dictated that I am an outsider, failed, sinful, and Bound for hell, because I do not believe there is a God, let alone the Christian one. I told her that we needed to accept that, practically speaking, we were always going to have this huge difference between us, and that clinging to these beliefs is what has been helping her, while letting go of these beliefs is what has helped me. In short, we have reached the place where we both understand that if I continued to pretend that I can tolerate insinuating myself into her Social Circles, exclusively Christian people, which are the only friendships that she has, there would sooner than later, time when my attitude and our relationship would implode. I recognized, and told her as much, that I now understand my propensity for Bridge burning, and I wanted this to be an understanding, not a destruction. I want to be able to move forward in positive ways, and I want her to value the community and friendships that she has, that she will continue to have even if I am out of the picture. For all of their sincerity and conviction, none of the people that we are surrounded by have been inspired by their spirit to ever contact me, asked me to spend time together, pray for me, or in any other since be anything but friendly and smiley on Sundays. In other words, there's no reason for me to expect that this community of Christians is good for me, but that does not at all mean that I want to disabuse my wife of her beliefs, in so far as her involvement in the Christian world seems to be a source of comfort, safety, and worldview that she can be comfortable with. I am finally free, in the most honest sense, from any obligation to pretend that those beliefs and that environment needed to be meaningful to me at all. I have had the first important conversation about it with her. The next conversation will have to be with her and my children together. Then, there will be the conversation with the pastor of our local church, who admittedly has been compassionate and a good listener, even welcoming questioning, doubting, critical topics of conversation concerning the Christian religion and Church in general. I know this has been a long post. I wrote it to encourage anyone in a similar situation to embrace honesty about what they believe, or don't believe, rather than trying to handle the weight of how it is going to affect others. If, in fact, you really do not believe these things, you can be completely honest about it without having to scream, without having to blame, and without any expectation that the other people in your life are going to follow you down that path of thought. It's not necessary for anyone else to be convinced of your rightness... It is only necessary that you are honest with yourself and everyone around you, so that the cognitive dissonance and pressure of forced conformity do not bring about ugly, destructive, and scarring consequences. Thank you all for reading. Please feel free to comment or ask questions as you see fit. I'm sure I may have left out a detail or two in trying to explain this journey, and I'm more than glad to talk about it.
  33. 2 points
    The problem with indoctrination for a child is that they have no defenses and can't reason it out for themselves. They trust whatever an authority figure tells them. They never get the chance to make a decision.
  34. 2 points
    Waits for LuthAMF to give us something other than bluster. The substance so far seems to be "I'm right and you're wrong" along with assumptions that the bible is true. Did you want to 'anger' us back to Jesus?
  35. 2 points
    Science is good for answering to "how did it all come to be?". Religion is good for answering to "WHY did it come to be?". As long as people keep wondering WHY we'll always have religion of some kind. I sure hope it won't be any abrahamic religion for much longer though.
  36. 2 points
    I am willing to be your wingman, if so desired.
  37. 2 points
    So glad you’re out hyperholiday. How can anyone work on a real life when they agree to believe what they know isn’t true and then call that the greatest truth, etc. This is the best part of your life that’s begun with your awareness of how significant your own thoughts and feelings really are.
  38. 2 points
    Whenever I post some nonsense , LF refutes it. Can you fix that?
  39. 2 points
    I have read the article, and your comments, sir, and you, in no way whatsoever, gave any logical, rational, meaningful evidence or reason for your critical claims of the well written, researched, clear and concise article of a well respected professional authority on harmful religion. And it is clear to me and, I'm sure, all others on this thread that you know and understand that. If you do not then you are in desperate need of serious mental help.
  40. 2 points
    That's distressing news, I'm sorry this happened so suddenly. I recently found myself homeless for a month, but with three kids. We stayed at hotels, friends' houses and with relatives. It was a surreal time. Which direction to do want to go from here? If you want to reconcile with your wife and return home then perhaps you can ask her pastor to convince her. Alternatively, you could spend some time apart until the anger subsides. A separation can become a catalyst for change, a time for great personal growth for you both. You now have an opportunity to live in line with your values, instead of burying your dream and watching your life go by. Change is scary when you don't know what's coming next. It's easier to cling to the familiar that embrace the unknown.
  41. 2 points
    The question presupposes the existence of Satan and a claim that this satan can deceive. You might want to start with establishing the existence of Satan as a real entity, then establishing that it has the ability to deceive in the manner which you are asking about, before asking if NDE's could be a result of said satanic deceptions. Since my research leads me to conclude that Satan is entirely a human construct I can rule out any satanic connection with NDE's unless evidence shows otherwise. @midniterider We were discussing NDE's in another thread. Got any take on this?
  42. 2 points
    They are not. There is no Satan. Anything else I can assist you with?
  43. 1 point
    Hi all Here we can discuss points raised in the discussion between @Joshpantera @LuthAMF and @Christforums (Who has been invited to take part in the discussion with Josh). This will save clogging up their thread with chatter. Thread linked here: So if you have anything you'd like to discuss in relation to the above thread fire away. My first point relates to what Josh said regarding WLC as below: Now I think Craig here makes a similar mistake as many god believers before him. It used to be Zeus caused lightening, the gods got angry and didn't send rain, demons caused mental illnesses. We now know that those things simply do not need a God explanation. Many of them explained by science. (One could argue they are all explained by science if we conclude that the people who figured out the truth about lightening did so using essentially the scientific method of investigation and observation etc) Moving on to Craig and his fixed beginning argument and how science proves the bible. I have heard him make this argument, I think against Sean Carroll. The thing is, science is not a set thing, it can and does change as new information comes to light. Craig faces the risk then that by tying what is scientific to the bible that it will change, and his story will therefore have to change. What if science finds the universe is in fact past eternal? (Some say this is simply impossible because if the universe is past eternal we could never get to where we are in the present moment - an interesting thought/discussion to be had there) But if it is, then there is no fixed beginning which makes the very verse "In the beginning" a complete moot verse.
  44. 1 point
    I appreciate that. I think we both will be "hearing each other out" numerous times throughout. This is not exactly a shallow topic. Dr.W L Craig openly states his approach is philosophical before being theological. My approach is unswervingly theological. Theology drives all else. That should be helpful.
  45. 1 point
    Ignoring my request to analyze the bible verse by verse together from the beginning only makes you look like a coward. And potentially intellectually dishonest. As if you know good and well that the bible isn't literally true and has little in the way of truth value. Because you are still posting as if the quickest path to atheism ISN"T reading the bible. I'm offering a personal demonstration of what can and can not be claimed about the bible and so far I wake up to zero notifications from you responding to it. Only tucking tail, as predicted, and trying to continue nit picking atheist members here. You aren't engaging the content. You're just trolling. And we've been very laid back about moderating you for this trolling. I've given you the chance to redeem yourself and you've let it fall on flaccid results. Are you just trolling members or are you serious about trying to back up your claims about the bible, truth, the universe and reality? Destiny awaits........
  46. 1 point
    As you can see that this little girl doesn't like being put in this position, for fucking Christ's sake! All she wants to do is play.
  47. 1 point
  48. 1 point
    I agree! That poor child will be brain-fried with the stupid x-tian religion! NO CHILD should ever be exposed to the idiocy of jesus, jehovah, and the so-called "holy" spirit!
  49. 1 point
    That's the Ekpyrotic Theory of branes contacting one another which has been competitive to multiverse cosmology. This is something that our friend Mark was very involved with near the end of his life. I have several PM's concerning the issue. Basically, he was sending me links to observable evidence favoring inflationary theory (multiverse) and putting string theory and it's variants (Ekrpyrotic) further out of the picture. I do miss the hot up to date cosmological discussions we used have when he was here.
  50. 1 point
    I want to thank everybody for your encouraging words. I knew this would be a place where I can tell this story and find not only acceptance, but honest feedback. As to the question of whether I feel like my marriage is over, I'm not sure. I still feel like no matter how I feel about her as a woman, as a mother to my children, as a wife, the issue is that as a fellow human being, she is choosing to live her life based on the illusion that she, and I, are fundamentally flawed in and of ourselves. As far as I can see, it doesn't make any difference how much we compromised on her having her beliefs and me living rationally. The big hurdle, if it's ever going to be surmounted, is that idea that even if we love one another and want the best for one another, the sources of our individual life goals, encouragement, strength, and inspiration are two completely different things. I am never again going to spend a minute believing that I need some extrinsic Force to forgive me before it even begins to help me, or that this Force had been either directing or hindering everything I had done in my life. My wife says that she is willing to not think about or not talk about that conflict. I understand, because I know her so well, that her saying that is partly a defense mechanism against being alone. She's a people pleaser, and she knows it and will tell you so. Ultimately, however, I know in my heart that the time will come when some decision is going to come down to whether or not one of us believes that God or a god is in control of a situation, or whether she can allow herself to make or accept a choice that is in absolute conflict with what she believes is a holy book. I've already asked her how she can justify continuing to believe in a religion that says that my rejection of God automatically destines me for wrath and hell. It's not that I want her to quit her beliefs, I just want her to live consistently with them. If she listens to the crap about hell and eternity and resurrection and all, and she believes it's all true and applicable to everyone, then we will never be truly right together, because I categorically reject that thinking, but she believes that fate is mine, and is sealed, unless I repent and accept the zombie man. If she doesn't believe that, then I don't understand why she would constantly listen to such teachings and surround herself with friends who believe such a thing.



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