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Golden Meadows

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About Golden Meadows

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    Strong Minded

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    Born again Pagan

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  • Still have any Gods? If so, who or what?
    Pagan
  1. "Why is that bible God says and does things that I, and most other human beings, would ordinarily think as being evil"
  2. What can I say? The last post you made in which you made allusions to Jesus and problems you were experiencing you later suggested was done, in effect, in the spirit of sarcasm. So am I to assume you are trying to be funny again? right ? http://www.steviesmith.org/notwaving.html http://www.storyarts.org/library/aesops/stories/boy.html http://lyrics.rare-lyrics.com/J/John-Lennon/Mind-Games.html We don't seem to talk the same language, so we will just leave it at that? o.k?
  3. I think it's more like that at a certain level, things of the spirit - whatever its called - forensic analysis takes away rather than adds. Sure there is for me a kind art that works on that level and is open to critical analysis which is fruitful in terms of what is conveyed - the artist would have it so. I think this tends towards the more literal forms of complex expression, but its not the kind of art that makes the biggest impression on me. If I could articulate why certain songs or poems strike me so then I would have written them myself, but I can't. Songs and poetry that I really love in some ways speak what I cannot speak myself. Edit: If I have any fears as you suggest then maybe its to avoid : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradgrind http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/gradgrind.htm
  4. I don't really analyse too much art that I like. An extreme example, only to illustrate a point, would be a chemical analysis of the pigments used on a canvas revealing definite truths about the composition of the materials but in doing so missing the greater truth the artist tries to convey in the painting viewed at a different level - that's maybe why I didn't drop any verses from the songs If you wanted to understand my perspective better then maybe another song/lyrics would help. Its called "Hymn to Her" by Chrisie Hynd and the Pretenders.
  5. p.s I noticed your remarks about "Something" in an early post and I agree with you that its a very beautifull love song. "Abbey Road" is my favourite Beatles album and music is a great way of probing the depths of the spirit, or whatever people want to call it. Sometimes also the words of "Let it Be" gently enter my mind when things are getting rough. Actually as this is typed I now see a connection between the two songs I never saw before and its very beautifull - thanks duderonomy
  6. Duderonomy:"I say 'Amen' to this. I'm still sliding towards Hell, and Freeday, ISB, and Golden Meadows (with those confusing quote/color/who said what posts), don't really seem to give a crap anyway. they would rather argue semantics, ignore a plea for help, show technical savvy, or give me flip responses, then help a weak brother. They would rather believe the worst of me, than believe in that which is good. They don't seem to want to restore a brother, and it really makes me sad that they don't take heed, lest they too should fall. It grieves my heart that while I try to cling to the blood of Christ which bought me, they ignore the very words of our Father; to go the extra mile, to love the 'leper', the whore, the cripple, the poor bastard chained in the grave yard whose demons even pigs won't have. Better that this thread be closed. It would be better because to keep it going may cause my younger, weaker brothers and sisters pain or even spiritual danger to keep it open. And I would not have them suffer any ill." I am very sorry. I looked back and saw a couple of your posts buried amongst all the others and to be honest I am not sure how they registered with me at the time. This is partly due to people trying to be funny posting material that pretends to be something that it is not and at times I dont know if I am supposed to take what I read at face value - remember this is an ex-christian forum and your avatar says you are agnostic. If you are a xtian with spiritual problems that need to be discussed then maybe this isn't the best place for it. If you want to open up a bit more by PM then please contact me - I have had my own share of spiritual problems as a xtian. Though I am an ex-xtian I won't try to persuade you to leave it behind but maybe you need more than just internet exchanges, i.e have you sought any kind of counseling/help at a one to one level? Sometimes religion can be the cause of great emotional problems and a person needs a break from it all for a while - this I know from personal experience. Maybe somebody would say to me "physician heal thyself" before giving advice and it would be true but if there is anything I can share with you duderonomy thats of any help to you I gladly will.
  7. I see from doing a google that the issue of faith and atheism is not something new but well trodden ground. The wikepaedia article on atheism also touches on the subject along as well as mentioning different categories of atheism. e.g strong, weak etc...I think I can learn more from these sources. "Some weak atheists feel that theism and strong atheism are equally untenable, on the grounds that faith is required both to assert and to deny the existence of deities, and as such both theism and strong atheism have the burden of proof placed on them to prove that a god does or doesn't exist. Some also base their belief on the notion that it is impossible to prove a negative." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
  8. I used a physical analogy to a metaphysical problem, but if you dont like the analogy proceed to the paragraphs following it and give me your comments. I don't believe in ghosts. Like YHWH they can't be seen accept by select people who claim to have seen them (YHWH in cloud form and ghost as themselves). Before I even heard the word ghost I had no comprehension of them. So before I had knowledge of ghost what was my faith about them? Then at some point I understood what a ghost was and that some people believed in them. After this I decided that I still didn't believe. Did this require faith? To me no. It was merely a decision and not a belief. If some ran up to me and said I just saw a creature with the head of a donkey, the body of a man, and the legs of turtle that told him/her that it created the multiverse and then I dismiss the person's claim it didn't take an act of faith it was a decision. I can't prove they are wrong since their claim is outside the realm of physics but it doesn't require faith to not believe there statement. Scienctology makes some radical claims about the origin of man. Does it take faith to believe or disbelieve them. They takes a strong degree of faith to believe there supernatural views but doesn't take faith to dismiss them. It merely takes a decision. You don't need faith to not believe in things that can't be proven. Leave aside the issue of ghosts. Like it or not the horizon of being is still there for the physicist, mystic and the rest of us - it won't go away. I said in an earlier post that if my thought provoking use of the word faith was an obstacle to understanding the underlying issues of atheism v agnosticism then drop it. I repeat that again. My use of it was to get at the heart of matter rather than mere word definitions.
  9. "I think you are having trouble with both the concept of what faith is and what atheism is. I do not claim to KNOW that there is no god. Neither does a xtian know there is God in the context of verifiable evidence. They live by faith. That would take some form of faith since I cannot as you say prove it. I merely reject the notion but remain open to someone providing valid and verifiable evidence. I would describe this as agnosticism If they can do so I will change my position." Good you are not a fundy door closer. Lets try another way. Three people find themselves tranported to strange beach looking at the horizon: a xtian, and atheist and an agnostic. The xtian makes a statment "I believe that x is over the horizon, the atheist says "I don't believe x is over the horizon" and the agnostic says "I don't know whats over the horizon, theres no evidence on which to form an opinion." The physical horizon represents the horizon of being where the metaphysical touches the physical. A scientist cannot see over the horizon of the "singularity" before the big bang because he is contained within the laws of physics and they have their birth with the big bang. The horizon still exists nevertheless. The xtian believes that beyond the singularity is God, the atheist believes there is no God, the agnsotic says "I refuse to make a decission as to what is beyond the horizon because there is no evidence for me to reach a conclusion and I don't want to be making acts of faith, i.e beliefs, in those circumstances. The final point on using the word faith: a poet will sometimes use a familiar word in an unfamiliar setting and in doing so jar our imagination out of the rut of habit and prejudice. Fundementalism is not unique to xtians, muslims etc it can touch all people with its intolerance and give birth not just to suicide bombers and xtians who think they have been sent on a crusade by God , but also the Gulags, concentration and interment camps. As a recovering fundamentalist I perhaps have more sensitive eye to any kind of fanaticism that puts barriers up between people, that stimulates strife and hatred. I'm discussing a principle here, please don't think I'm meaning you as a person.
  10. Freeday: there is one thing i am strongly working on. and that is not to judge other. how can i say that i am better than you just because of what i believe? i can't. don't ever think that i am judging you. that is not my job. Good. I have read many posts by visiting xtians and frankly they sound soo very arrogant and judgmental so its nice to hear you won't be doing any of that.
  11. i am sorry, i should have quoted with what i agreed with you on. funny enough you have made me even more of a litarilist, Its good to read things literally when they are meant to be taking literally the trouble is the bible is composed in various kinds of idioms, not just the literal and this seems to drive people into defending things that ordinarily they would never dream of doing themselves. I think the danger is that after many years of burying the conscience a person starts to become the thing they profess. the more i read. yes i see the light. the light of God's saving Grace! Good for you I just hope this will be shown in greater tolerance to other human beings who do not share your take on God
  12. GM, does it take faith to disbelieve in Zeus? In the cookie monster? In the flying spaghetti monster? Yes, if you believe that anyone one them is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, the creator of all things/natural laws and who chooses to remain unseen. An atheist makes a choice based on no evidence open to the senses, so does a true xtian. Agnosticism is the more technically correct description for what you are hinting at. No? Then it doesn't take faith to disbelieve god either. When you choose to believe something when there is no firm evidence either way you are making an act of faith. You are no different to me than freeday or any other person who makes a choice when there is no verifiable evidence. Agnosticism refuses to play the faith game. Your forced definitions of faith are not so far removed from the logical errors that xtians make. The distinction I make between atheism and agnosticism you may not agree with but I am not alone in holding them. I have zoomed in on the word faith in order to highlight what I think is the key issue in the choice of between agnosticism and atheism. I don't have to use the word faith to support my argument but in context it forces a deeper appreciation of the issues. If you find it unhelpful then drop it.
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