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crazyguy123 last won the day on February 5 2020

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About crazyguy123

  • Birthday 11/17/1992

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    A secret location
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    Science Fiction, Chess, religion, hiking, and music
  • More About Me
    I've been an ex-Christian since September of 2011.

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  • Still have any Gods? If so, who or what?

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  1. I think when you get to 25 posts and become a Regular Member, you can edit your posts. I listen to a lot of rock and metal and I like to listen to things that have nothing to do with religion in general, either for or against it, but once in a while, I like to listen to some anti-religious stuff. Since leaving the Christian religion, I've come across a few favorites that fall into the anti-religion category: Metallica - The God that Failed Epica - Fools of Damnation Alice in Chains - The Devil Put Dinosaurs Here I'm not a big fan of AFI, but I have found that I like the song Sacrilege, so it's in this list. But if you want to listen to something hilarious, check out Hand of the Almighty by John Butler for a good laugh.
  2. Given how sadistic the Christian god is and the way that he and Satan used Job and his family as pawns in a game they were playing, I wouldn't necessarily consider travesties like these as an argument for his non-existence. Things like this still sicken me and give me the idea that the existence of a benevolent god is unlikely. I'm not sure that the same can be said for apathetic or sadistic ones, but I don't have any evidence either way for those.
  3. Aw, that's too bad. I actually liked him. Oh well, on to the next Christian I guess!
  4. Well, it really only makes sense to suspend belief towards unsubstantiated claims. If something hasn't been demonstrated to be true to the extent that it is acceptable to believe it, then the correct thing to do is doubt it as much as it is possible to do so. If it can't be demonstrated to be true, then there is no reason to believe it whatsoever. There is of course the possibility that you are right, yes, but possible doesn't get us to the truth of the matter if assertions is all you have. I could also make the claim that an invisible dragon lives in my basement and that it will burn people to death with fire if they say bad things about him. While there is always the possibility that I am right, do you think it would be reasonable to suspend doubt (which to me is the same thing as believing that it's possible) if I can't demonstrate that the dragon exists? If I told you about it, took you into the basement, and you saw no evidence of a dragon whatsoever, doubt would be the automatic response that you would have (I hope), due to my claims not being substantiated. I could give you personal experiences of the dragon making itself visible to me, but those should never be enough to convince you, until you have the experience yourself. Have you heard of natural evil before? These would be things that are not caused by someone making moral decisions, but are rather things that happen in the natural world that result in suffering. Perhaps your head injury could fit into that category? If it was caused by the actions of another human, then maybe not, but perhaps if it was an unintentional result of something they did, it could be. The mercy of God (as Christians commonly view it) is only given to people who believe, but the people that are not convinced instead get to be burned alive in the afterlife. What other explanation could there possibly be for why Yahweh might show mercy to somebody? That is an assumption that the kids will inherit the behaviors and thought patterns of their parents. Sometimes they turn out better, but other times not, it depends on a lot of factors. The problem still remains that you believe in a god that will actively punish people for the actions of their ancestors, rather than anything they themselves are doing. If they do repeat the actions of their past relatives, then getting punished for things they themselves did seems a little more understandable, but that isn't the problem here. Also, I wouldn't look at sin differently, to be honest. Sin is essentially the things people do that allegedly pisses off gods. If I find someone's particular idea of a god to be abhorrent or unbelievable, for what reason would I care about the sins they claim I am committing against that god? The time to care about these things is when the theist's claims are substantiated, not before. But if someone has thoughts that are irrational and based off of bad information (or a lack of information entirely), the moment they realize that they were in error, they would change their way of thinking and their actions would change as well. Why then would it make sense for God to harden their heart to prevent them from making this change, when they would do so if they weren't forcefully trapped in an irrational way of thinking against their will? The justification for it that you seem to have come up with is this: If someone uses bad reasoning and they make bad choices as a result, then the consequence is that God will forcefully trap them in that line of reasoning, so that they repeat those bad choices again. Am I misunderstanding this? I don't currently have a wife or kids, so anything that I say about this is only hypothetical. Using your examples, let's say my wife cheated on me and my kids cut me out of their lives for some reason. For me, the first thing I would do is see if there was something I did wrong that caused this (which is a possibility that I have to consider because I'm not a narcissist). If it turns out to be the case that my wife cheated on me because the other guy had a bigger and my kids cut me out of their lives because of a drug addiction - my first concern would be the kids (the wife would be irrelevant at that point). Since the kids cut me out of their lives for reasons that will hurt them in the long run, my only concern would be their safety, but I wouldn't be jealous about it. I would do everything in my power to help them every chance I got, but that is not at all the same as what your god would do in that type of a situation. The jealousy of Yahweh is the same level of jealousy that a narcissist would experience if someone didn't pay attention to them. Using my hypothetical scenario, the only way my reaction to both of those would be the same is if I burned inside with rage and obsessed over the fact that my wife and kids were putting something else ahead of me, right up until I decided to hunt them down and beat the shit out of them for doing so. If that was my reaction, then your comparison would be completely accurate. At this point, you may be thinking that the sacrifice of Jesus is your god's way of doing everything in his power to help his "kids", but if that is the defense you jump to, then we're going to have to open up a whole new thread in the Lion's Den over that one. The sacrifice of Jesus is not an example of mercy or love: It is the same as a narcissistic parent with a favorite son deciding all at once that they aren't going to beat up their other kids all the time, they're going to beat up their favorite and say, "Because I beat up my favorite on your behalf, I won't ever beat you guys up either, but if you don't love me enough, then I'm going to shove you ungrateful little shits into the furnace and burn you to death." According to the Bible, we live in a world that is full of evil and all people have a sinful nature programmed into them that causes them to be incapable of being anything but corrupt (unless they allow God to fix them of course). If the Bible is true, then it means that God has set up the perfect environment for humans to develop codependency with him. The people who love him will defend everything he does, no matter how terrible it may seem, and will only view themselves as worthless, depraved, broken, or any other negative adjective they can think of, while the rest get burned alive for thinking for themselves and drawing their own conclusions about things. It still sounds to me like your god experiences only exist in your imagination, but it isn't because I think you're crazy or anything like that, that isn't the case at all. The way it appears from my side is that you read something in the Bible that seemed wonderful and had a positive emotional reaction to it, which made you think that there was a god reading it with you, then you prayed to the Christian god and had more subjective, positive emotional experiences that you thought were god experiences, and decided that your faith was the right one but the others were wrong. Subjective emotional experiences don't demonstrate the truth of anything, but can be very convincing to some people. That used to be the case for me and many other members on this site, but it isn't going to do the trick anymore. I don't believe that your god even exists anymore, but I will admit that when I still did believe, yes, I was angry with him, but it wasn't merely because he actively punished people and passively allowed evil; it was much more than that. It was because he actively punished people for purely egotistical reasons (such as killing a man for picking up sticks on the sabbath, swallowing people up in the ground for not agreeing with Moses, punishing people for the actions of their ancestors if they hated him, and hardening people's hearts on purpose just so he could flex his muscles by tormenting them and the people around them over and over again) and because he filled the entire world with evil, merely because the first people to exist disobeyed him due to a lack of understanding about the consequences they were about to face. The biggest problem of all was the Christian doctrine of hell. Theramintrees had it right when he said that hell is a small idea with a large shadow. It is the most sadistic and terrifying idea that humans have ever come up with and a god who would send people to such a place for finite crimes (especially when the mere act of not loving him is a crime deemed worthy of this punishment) has got to be the most cruel tyrant to ever exist. For someone such as yourself, who still believes, to read about this and not react with anger, makes me think that you have a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome, which I think was the case for me when I was a Christian, until I truly began to comprehend how cruel and narcissistic the god of the Bible actually is. At the moment, because I do not believe in your god anymore, the anger I still have is for the people who teach these horrible things to children and emotionally vulnerable people who then become trapped in a cycle of self-hatred and begging some god to forgive them because they committed some imaginary thought crime. As I said in a previous post, responding to someone else, because I already had a negative view of myself (caused by undiagnosed depression) and the Bible confirmed those negative views as being true, I fell into the emotionally vulnerable category when I finally made the decision to give my life to Jesus (I was about 14 then, I think). There were times that Christianity did serve as an emotional crutch, yes, but at the same time, it also kept me trapped in a perpetual cycle of self-hatred and begging to be forgiven for being human. It was only after leaving the religion that I started to think that maybe I wasn't worthless after all and that led to me trying to get to the root of my problems and trying to fix them, without turning to an abusive relationship with a god who says he's going to torture me if I don't love him. I still have work to do, but I haven't given up yet. If it ever does turn out to be the case that you are right about your god existing and that I was wrong for doubting, then I am happy to say that given the choice, going to hell would be preferable to bending the knee to the tyrant that created it. As much as it would suck to be there, I would at least have the satisfaction of knowing that I didn't give in to the coercive threats of a dictator out of fear of my own safety. Tell me, how is this any different from a dictator deciding to expand the borders of his regime and sending a messenger to the neighboring countries to beg with them to surrender peacefully, so that they can avoid their cities and people getting blown to bits? It doesn't matter what Jonah's motivation was, he isn't the one at fault here. Given everything that has been discussed in this thread (and elsewhere on this site, between former believers who have struggled with the teachings of Christianity and their effects on them), there is no reason to see Jonah as anything but a puppet doing the bidding of a tyrant who wants to control more people, by giving the people in neighboring countries an ultimatum - surrender or be destroyed. Also, I want to apologize for the delayed response. I got caught up in real life things and kind of forgot about this thread for a bit, until I had the chance to get back to it. I noticed that you haven't been around for a while either, so I hope you come back. Despite how significantly we disagree on things, at least you are willing to have honest conversations, rather than just preaching at us and mocking us for not believing what you're preaching.
  5. @TruthSeeker0 If anything, rather than being a magic pill that fixed everything, religious faith, for me, was more like smoking a big fat joint once a week and getting a buzz for a few hours afterwards (without helping much during the week). Depression and anxiety have both been constant things I have had to deal with for most of my life, with periods where they are better and periods where they are worse, but looking back now, I don't think that Christianity necessarily made my problems worse, it just gave me a good high without fixing my issues, since the Bible merely confirmed the negative view of myself I already had as being true. The buzz that I got from the religion mainly came from being at church and singing the worship songs, but usually by the end of the week, it had been a long time since it wore off, so I was ready for that next hit when Sunday came along. Anyway, I appreciate your concern because I am doing a lot better at the moment. I have also been working with professionals for the last few years to deal with these things, since a significant portion of my problems were caused by things outside of religion. Thank you.
  6. This is a good way to at least determine if someone has a reason to be dishonest about the things that they are claiming for sure. I don't necessarily think that any of these red flags apply to you exactly, so that still leaves us with two options - either you are right, but the rest of us missed something somehow, or you are just incorrect about the things you are believing. How do we determine which of these is the case? I have also made the observation that people in general do this very thing once they have adopted some sort of ideology, whether it is religious, political, or something else entirely and will write off people who disagree with them as being delusional, crazy, brainwashed, or any number of things. You probably are aware that there are atheists who recognize that these sort of adjectives don't apply to most religious people, so they don't use them out of respect for others, even though there are some atheists who do the negative labels thing (I've seen quite a few of those in the comment sections of Youtube videos in particular - which might as well be the sewers of the internet), but there are also theists who spew hatred and vitriol at non-believers as well. I think what this tells us is that a lot of people are simply assholes (and these types of people sure do love their negative labels). It would be nice if there weren't so many of them, because it makes it impossible to have a respectful discussion when one or both sides of an argument or debate already think they are right and are unwilling to change their own minds about anything (but will hammer their own ideas into other people's heads without giving it a second thought). Fortunately for us, we don't seem to be having that problem here. Ah yes, I have met people like this as well, but the majority of the people on ex-C don't seem to fit into this category of people who were Christian in name only, without actually believing any of the religious stuff that comes with the label. It sounds like you have had a very difficult life. I'm glad that things are going a lot better for you and that you decided to share these things with us, but this "brokenness" of the world that you are describing, brings us to the problem of evil and the question of "why would a benevolent god allow you to have the head injury in the first place?" On the positive side, this experience likely gave you a much stronger sense of empathy with other survivors of brain injuries and mental illness, so from your perspective, I imagine this could seem like a good reason for a benevolent god to allow it. With that in mind, I have to ask: what about those who have suffered through similar experiences to yours, who gave up and ended their own lives? Why would a benevolent god go out of his way to help you, but not them? What do you think you did differently from those other people who went through experiences like yours, but are no longer alive because they could not deal with their problems? If the difference is that you believed and they didn't, how could it be benevolent for a god to ignore people who are suffering, merely because they found it impossible to believe the same things you did? Since you have read the Bible, then you probably know that the god of the Bible is a jealous god who will punish the descendants of people who hate him four generations down the line. According to the scriptures, we see that he is a god who will punish people in the afterlife for committing thought crimes and that is willing to harden the heart of one individual (which is a violation of their free will, if there even is such a thing) just so he can show off by cursing an entire population with plagues, for the actions of one person. Since this is not a benevolent god we are discussing here, it is easy to see how the more positive scriptures could potentially lead to a feeling of peace, if those parts of the Bible are the only ones you pay attention to (which was the case for me at first), then you might not see the skeletons that are hanging in Yahweh's trophy room. It seems like you decided to read the Bible first and found something in there that had a meaningful impact on you when you read it, so you had what you thought was a "god moment" and then rejected every other religious ideology because you "found the right one". If my understanding is wrong about this, please correct me. It seems like your prayer life is the reason that you remained a Christian, but I still am not sure what would lead you to assume that your answered prayers are the doing of the Christian god in particular. One would think that if there was a benevolent god, but thousands of religions and sects, that they would answer the prayers of all people, regardless of which specific deity they were praying to (if they were going to allow so many religions to exist in the first place). I suppose if that was the case, then for you, it probably wouldn't be a problem if you were incorrectly praying to the Christian god; if there is a benevolent god out there, then you would simply discover you were in error once you got to the afterlife, but could just move on and learn new things without being judged as wicked for not following the correct god (but if Christianity is true, then us non-Christians would not be as fortunate). I am glad that in your case, your religious beliefs were not the cause of your negative self-esteem, but it is difficult to understand how that could be the case, especially when the Bible says that all humans are evil and deserving of being sent to hell (this of course includes you, because we allegedly have a sinful nature that makes it so). It says that if you do good deeds without glorifying the Christian god when you do them, then your actions have the same value as filthy rags. If a person already dealing with depression was to read those passages first, they would feel even worse about themselves if they believed them. Even though they might feel better once they thought they were saved, if such a time ever comes when they no longer have good reasons to believe and their faith dissipates, they would end up inside of a much deeper hole than they were in to begin with (which is what happened to me). I will be honest with you and say that when I was a believer, there were moments when the faith that I had helped me get through bad experiences. I totally relate to feeling worthless because of reasons that are unrelated to religion and suffering through depression as well, but it was also the case for me that the faith I had didn't help for very long once I realized what sort of a god I was praying to. It wasn't because of things that happened to me personally that I left Christianity; it was because of what the Bible said about the god that is described within its pages. Once I got to the point when I could not reconcile the idea of hell with the idea of a benevolent god, my faith collapsed, which left me without a crutch to lean on and my depression worsened as a result of it. Thanks to this site and the members here, I was able to get through that period of my life, but I couldn't have gotten through it on my own (and certainly not by reading more of the Bible or praying to the Christian god - which was the cause of the whole mess). I really am glad that you are doing well now, even if I fail to understand why you would be grateful to the Biblical god for any of these improvements in your life. In my opinion, these people in your life who gave you the hand up you needed, did more for you than he ever did, but I hope things continue to go well for you (regardless of our differences) because you seem like a genuine person and a nice guy overall. Thanks for introducing yourself to us, it was nice to meet you.
  7. I'm sorry to hear that you are going through this. I went through the same thing with my mom 3 years ago, so I know what you are feeling. Keep us updated because we are here for you.
  8. Aw, he picked the wrong curtain and got the Zonk...
  9. The thing is, people can invent stories and call them "testimonies" if they want to, so unless we have a way to differentiate your experience from a mere story that someone invented, how are we supposed to believe that your testimony is accurate? I personally know someone who made up a story about having cancer to get sympathy from people so he could take advantage of them, but when it turned out that he didn't actually have it, he invented a story about how the Christian god cured it to make himself seem like less of a liar, but his BS was so unbelievable that even his fellow Christians called him out on it. If that person was to come onto this site to share a story with us about how the Christian god healed him of cancer, how could we tell the difference between his testimony and yours? I don't really know of any former Christians saying, "I never really believed to begin with". It is usually the other way around; Christians saying to the ex-C that they were never true Christians in the first place, which is known as the No True Scotsman Fallacy. I do at least understand where they get the idea from because there is a verse in the Bible (I can't remember which one it was at the moment - it might have been in Romans somewhere) that actually says that people who leave the faith were never Christians. I don't think I would call you an enemy just yet... Everybody is only picking apart the things you are saying to find out if those things are actually true, just in case you are mistaken in your conclusions. If you are, then we want to help you see it so that you can stop wasting your time by believing things that aren't actually true. It would also be cool if you could realize that you are not worthless garbage like the Bible says you are and find a way to love yourself, without needing a god to tell you that you matter (as long as you love him, of course). As for the rest of us, if he loves us like you say he does, he should just come to us and prove it, rather than having middlemen like yourself do the work for him. I probably would have a happy reunion with your god if there was a good reason to believe AND it also turned out that most of what the Bible says about him is wrong (particularly the stuff that makes him sound like a sadistic, petty, prick). Unless that happens, I can honestly say that I never will be a Christian again. If it turns out that I am wrong and he wants to send me to hell anyway, then guess what? The entire time I am suffering in the eternal Auschwitz that he created, I'll be glad that I never bowed the knee to him anyway. Anyone who would do this to someone cannot be worthy of love or respect. Just sayin'...
  10. I've been reading through this thread and realized that your experience is a lot like mine was. The fear of hell was something that I struggled with for a long time as well (and I still experience it from time to time). At one point I thought I was free from it, but then it came back with a vengeance because of a whole new set of stressful situations that came at me all at once, so I understand what you have been experiencing completely. It's also pretty awesome that a former minister was involved in the group you went to, so it just shows that you can be free no matter how deep you get into the religion. I hope today is going well for you and I want to say good luck to getting over this nagging fear. I'm certain that you will be able to do it eventually and then you will realize that the Christian hell isn't any more terrifying than Anthony Freemont's cornfield.
  11. It's nice to see that this site is still as amazing as it was when I first joined a little over 7 years ago. The doctrine of hell and other toxic ideas from Christianity are still being ripped apart with logic and reason, helping people to feel free to think for themselves, without being afraid of offending God Anthony Freemont for doing so.



  12. Now I understand why it says on your profile that you live in America's wang... Anyway, just so I have something to contribute to this topic, I'll say that when I first stopped going to church, Sundays were awesome because I could relax as much as I wanted and just do fun things for the most part. Unfortunately because of the job I had, Sundays stopped being quite as fun as they were at first, so it was just me sleeping because I was too tired to do anything and then going back to work again Sunday night. Now that I am starting a new job that will allow me to have weekends off more often, that means I will get to enjoy Sundays once again. It will be even better when winter is over (I live in Michigan, so it is too cold to do anything outside), but when it is nice out again, I will probably be going on the local hiking trails like I used to do. I definitely look forward to it.
  13. I know I have experienced what I thought were "God moments", usually during times when I was at church and everyone was worshiping together. It seems more likely that it was just my brain creating the experience, because I was a believer then and surrounded by like-minded people while having a positive, shared experience. Non-believers still experience similar things to this outside of a religious setting that aren't related to a god. It could be the case that rather than finding some god's love, you had a positive experience that you probably couldn't explain at the time and because you are a believer, attributed that experience to a god. What caused me to leave it all behind was the realization that a god who would torment people for all of eternity for finite crimes and a sinful nature that was allegedly programmed into us, could not be benevolent enough to be the cause of these "God moments" when I thought I was experiencing love. Even if this god was involved in it somehow, it would merely be an illusion of love, rather than actual love. For me to think otherwise, would be like being trapped in an abusive relationship, while thinking that the abuser loved me when I had no good reason to think that was the case. Oops, I also forgot to welcome you to ex-C since you're new here. I think that if you are willing to have civil and positive interactions with people, rather than just preaching at them to win souls, then you probably aren't intruding. So, with that out of the way, it's nice to meet you and welcome to this place.
  14. Ooh, I kind of disappeared again for a while there. I had no idea how long it had been since I last came here.

    1. TABA


      Welcome back!  Always good to see people return after an absence!

    2. Orbit


      Welcome back!

  15. Well, they haven't actually said that yet, but what I said in Discord was that I suspect it might happen. At the very least, I got my debate opponent to at least recognize the fact that I have investigated their claims, even if I rejected them as being true. I will just have to see how things turn out.
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