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DanForsman last won the day on July 30 2019

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About DanForsman

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    San Francisco East Bay
  • Interests
    hiking/walking, vegan diet, smaller houses and less stuff, sustainable world population size, economy not built on growth
  • More About Me
    I am looking for something meaningful to focus on in retirement. I value independent thought and believe that world peace is an achievable goal.

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  • Still have any Gods? If so, who or what?
    No thanks; I have had enough now.

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  1. This looks like the basis of a conspiracy theory in that not only are some people interested in misrepresenting and falsifying both history and (more unbelievably) science but the vast majority are. This must continue to be true as each succeeding group new to the field cooperates with misinterpreting evidence and even continues down the false path creating new falsehoods. Sure that is a possibility but in my mind a very unlikely one. I guess it helps if you want to believe something along these lines then to accept the Christian premise that all humans are evil at their core. Science allows for rejection of unsound ideas and replacement of imperfect ideas at anyplace within the chain meaning even fundamental ideas can be eliminated if shown to be incorrect. It seems like if science were fake then it would be much less coherent and filled with competing views. I want add a little post script here because on further reflection I think there is no good reason to believe that humans are inherently evil nor is there good reason to believe that science is not legitimate. With science the long string of obvious accomplishments in medicine, aeronautics, computer sciences, engineering, astronomy, biology, etc. is truly astonishing and is a good indicator the the scientific method is successful and alive and well still today. A fair evaluation of the nature of man will I believe demonstrate that humanity is more good that evil. The social kindness, human rites protections, basic justice and care and protection of the less fortunate that is so prevalent in our western societies is in my opinion historically unprecedented. I was born in 1947 and have lived my entire live in probably the most peaceful time that has ever been recorded. The primitive harsh society represented in the bible can't hold a candle to our present western civilization in terms of respecting and empathizing with our fellow human beings. Our legal systems clearly indicate a higher standard of justice than has been practiced by any society before ours. This social progress is not what anyone would expect to result from an evil human nature.
  2. I've been thinking for some time that there is a deep seated belief in many that concentrated thoughts can create places and real living people and creatures. They feel like if a person wants something to be true very deeply and then especially if they find others who want those same things to be true then among their group they are able to create an actual reality that everyone should then recognize. Their wanting and the wanting of others like them is enough to actually become the proof that what they want to believe in is true. Similar to the part in Peter Pan where the audience is told to believe that Tinkerbell is alive and clap there hands and they do and then Tinkerbell comes back to life. If we want to believe something enough then, as we here at ExC have become well aware of, we cross a line in our thinking where an entirely different standard of proof replaces our ordinary standard. This is maybe an example of one way we acquire proof for demons and witches, etc. I mean how often do we hear words like I feel like this or that must be true offered as a kind of evidence that something must exist.
  3. I'm sorry Wertbag. Death is so powerful and impossible to comprehend. The day after your brother died my wife's niece found her father dead in his bed upon waking. He was my wife's oldest brother, Vic, just a month or two from turning 65 but the death came without warning. The niece had lost her mother less than a year ago. An autopsy will be done to determine the cause of her father's death. Even though I wasn't close with Vic the fact that his life just vanished is so confounding, bewildering. All this just emphasizes the point you made, "Enjoy your life while you can. We never know how long we have." Be kind and patient with yourself. Mourning can be so unpredictable. I really like Margee's ideas for self care when you're ready. Thank you for keeping us with you throughout this process and know that we are still here for you.
  4. DanForsman

    New athiest

    Welcome PSR. We have had people come here who just flipped the switch one day and didn't look back but typically it takes time to deconvert and I think several years is quite common. I wonder if things are as settled as you indicate because you also say your "brain is on overdrive and feels like it's about to explode." Don't try to do this faster than your comfortable with. If you were a believer for 40 years then the church community may still have real meaning for you even if the message doesn't ring true anymore. You have your husband for support but the journey is your own and there are many things you'll have to reconsider in light of this new line of reasoning and new conclusions you have come to. Glad you're here. We have followed many who have made this deconversion journey and can quite possibly help you if your road turns rocky. I think you'll find that life is clearer and progress much more possible as you move beyond christianity. Keep us posted if you can.
  5. The most important thing is not what you say to your mother but just that you don't give away your life to her or to anyone. It's your DNA and your job is to see where that takes you as long as you aren't causing actual harm to another person. Lots of people will want to make decisions for you but just don't let them. Learn about yourself and change things that you know you can only if you want to but make peace with your basic nature and work to do the best you can with that, which will require listening to yourself and making every choice that's yours to make. I think the more you do this the less important it will be when people recommend you make certain choices that aren't in line with you own plans.
  6. Hi Disgruntled. Your questions are not foundational to Christianity. I don’t know which group would hold beliefs similar to the ones you have but I’m pretty sure there are some Christian churches out of the many thousands in existence that would hold views you would be comfortable with. Why not just look for another church?
  7. Thanks for sharing your story and particularly this aspect of your story regarding the more significant events that led to your realization of disbelief. You ran into some very independent thinking friends along the way whose opinions you allowed to have weight which is to your credit. I'm so glad your son's admission of not believing didn't make you feel like you needed to dig in your heels and become all the more christian in response. So many families are torn apart when children don't buy into their parents beliefs. With time I think you will be much more comfortable with this choice of not believing (I know I am) because it does not take effort and you are free to spend the time you previously dedicated to making christianity seem plausible and functioning to moving forward with life and discovering our world and our lives as they actually are playing out. It does seem to me that in this case you have to work so long and so hard to open that pickle jar only to discover that there aren't any pickles inside. That's the true story of christianity of course. It's really good to have you here and thanks for leaving those much appreciated responses like the one above.
  8. Wow Wertbag. How freighting coming suddenly from out of the blue for such a young person and then that prognosis with possibly only a few weeks left, so unfair! I'm very very sorry to hear this and wish there was something do or say. I hope you are able to enjoy this last bit of time with your brother and the closeness this kind of situation can bring with your family and friends. Thank you for the updates and for generally keeping us in the loop. Like all the others here I wish you the best possible in this difficult emotional time.
  9. Hi ZenPaladin. Glad that you are back and doing therapy to improve your life. Zimba is a taker and doesn't seem to have ever been capable of being a friend worth having. I'm sorry you got into that relationship when you were too young and inexperienced to realize what was happening but good for you to have started looking out for yourself. Stay on this good path you are now traveling down and I'm sure your future will be much brighter. I'm sorry for all the trouble you're going through but really glad to hear your doing what you can to protect yourself from Zimba.
  10. So true AcrobaticDetective. Every religion past and present believed or believes that their god or gods are the real ones and I think most are like christianity thinking that all other gods are false. Interestingly their god/gods all do absolutely nothing and yet most or all religions believe they have a god/gods that is actually doing things for them or to them. As the world gets smaller and science reveals more and more about how things work it becomes more difficult to understand how people hold to these beliefs but it does demonstrate that people make decisions that circumvent their "god given" ability to reason when they feel a need to. Anyhow it's certainly true that these gods are made up so you are on the right path for recognizing and accepting that and courageous for going against the grain. Good for you!
  11. Aya sounds a little scary to me but the deconversion is perfectly safe and absolutely reasonable. Good choice. Congratulations!
  12. Weezer said, " If there is, and I die first, I'll come back and tell everybody!" Sadly we have sent over one hundred billion before you and not a single one has returned to give us a report, which leaves us here speculating like this.
  13. Do you or did you have work related to that christian education? If so how did you adjust? Congratulations on getting out! From totally brainwashed christian to atheist in only 3 years is really fast so you are very lucky. Glad to have you with us.
  14. Hi Kdeaustin. Change is always scary and the bigger the change the more scary. Nevertheless congratulations on trusting your own (god given?) reasoning abilities and gut feelings regarding right and wrong over the powerful influences exerted on you by you christian pier group to control your thoughts. As you gradually come to trust your own reasoning more and more your life view will become much more firm and reliable than one supplied to you by the group think church goers and the confusing contradictory "guidance" found in their bible. That new foundation will be one you can build on with thoughts than can be trusted and examined as closely as you choose and the fear (unfounded fear} will then start to fade. You might take some comfort from the fact that 2/3s of our present population on earth does not believe in the bible or christianity. If the christian god is so concerned for each and every human how can he do such an extremely poor job of reaching them and then the powerful holy spirit unleashed on humanity some 2,000+ years ago but Islam (which believes it is blasphemy to call the human Jesus a god) is the fastest growing religion set to catch the christian plurality by 2050. You are clearly having a dangerously difficult time with this transition so keep up with secular professional help until you find a safe place in your thoughts and emotions. I hope you will engage with us on the things that are being said here. The more we know about your concerns and what kinds of ideas you find helpful the more we'll be able to help you. We look forward to hearing from you when you have time. Thank you for sharing your story,
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