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Everything posted by LogicalFallacy

  1. Hi Bavinck and welcome to Ex-C Yep, I've been there, I think most of us have on one way or another. Wishing you al the best on your journey out of religion and freeing yourself of the God virus which seems to have inflicted so many of us for pretty much most of our written history. Hope to see you around. LF
  2. There is a little quote I like to use when people say they "know" something. It's along the lines of "If you can't show it, then you don't know it". This is basically saying that if you can't provide evidence for what you "know" then you don't really know it. And claims presented without evidence can be dismissed without consideration. That's another quote - from Hitchens I believe. I'm not a biologist, but even I can tell you have a gross misunderstanding of what DNA is. Also if you think life is intelligently designed then consider the fact a giraffes laryngeal nerve travels a path far longer than logic and design would dictate The Laryngeal Nerve of the Giraffe is Proof of Natural Selection | ScienceBlogs. The fact that a certain species of pig grows tusks that curve and end up growing into the brain. The fact that there are lifeforms that must burrow into the eye of a human in order to reproduce. There are many other examples. If it's made by a designer then that designer is a bumbling fool. I generally don't tell people there is no god. If they tell me there is one I ask for evidence. Still waiting. And occasionally I will probe as to the reasons why they believe in their particular favourite deity. What strikes me is that you have referred to your God as "he/him/his" These are gender terminologies humans use to differentiate between sexes and genders depending on context. These are defined by characteristics such as having ovaries or testes, breasts or penis's etc. So can you explain to me what sexual characteristics your God has that leads you to refer to it in the male sense? If you are not willing to consider the possibility, however remote you think it is, that you might be wrong then discussion is pointless. It was telling in the debate between Bill Nye (Science educator) and Ken Ham (Creationist extraordinaire) they were asked what would make them change their mind about their world views, particularly in regards to evolution. Bill Nye's answer: "A rabbit fossil in the Cambrian layer" Ken Ham's answer "Nothing will ever convince me..." If your answer is nothing will ever convince you, then you are unreasonable by definition.
  3. Well I'm confused. I advocate mask wearing based on evidence that it slows the spread of the disease (And thus helps in a number of areas such as the medical system, lessening impact on the economy etc So in response to my post you said: "It may slow the spread to some degree but the argument is that these masks haven't, nor can they stop the spread. For X reasons. It can be slowed by factors and yet never go away" So, the POINT, as referred to above I think is that while masks do not stop the virus, they, in conjunction with other tools such as vaccines and lockdowns, help slow the spread and protect the population therefore being a net benefit. So saying that masks don't "stop" the virus I think misses the point. Have I missed the point? That's my point, care to clarify what you think the point is?
  4. Who is arguing they can stop it completely? That isn't a strawman over there on the field is it? If anyone is arguing that vaccines and masks and prayer can 100% stop covid they are wrong, but that would be missing the point. And here in this thread it would be a strawman.
  5. Earlier in this thread we were discussing whether masks help slow the spread of Covid. We have a new large study: Largest study of masks yet details their importance in fighting Covid-19 (nbcnews.com) A link to the actual study for those so inclined to delve into the methods etc Mask_RCT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf (poverty-action.org)
  6. So more update: Spoke to the doctor. He thinks it was likely the jab that caused it because migraines are related to inflammatory forces and the 2nd jab does cause a decent inflammatory response. However its normal and nothing to be concerned about, especially since the last two days I've been fine. He thinks I'm now out of the reaction period.
  7. Sorry to hear that mate. I do have an update: Not sure if this is related to the vaccine or just something that happens. I get migraines every so often. Normally every 6 months. I haven't had one for a bout 6 months. I reported on Saturday I was fine and dandy. Saturday night I got a migraine. It wasn't severe. I was fine on Sunday, Monday had bad headaches and felt nauseous, then on Tuesday I got another migraine. Now, none of that is particularly unusual. I get migraines and headaches, and I've had back to back migraines before and generally feel shitting for a day or two after getting one. But due to the proximity of my 2nd shot I thought I'd report it. @DarkBishop Hoping you get through it like a breeze mate. From what I've heard, any side effects are better than the actual thing. We have 8 cases in ICU in NZ - and we are locked down! Hate to see case numbers if we weren't locked down.
  8. As I previously asked - what are you calling spiritual? I cannot answer your question until you give me your working definition of what you mean by spiritual? From a religious point of view I don't have 'spiritual' needs so therefore no need to satisfy them. I have emotional needs, physical needs. And everlasting itch to go fishing. I enjoy breath-taking scenery, beautiful sun rises and sets, and symphonic metal. I have a range of emotional experiences during these experiences some of which can be described as euphoric. Is that spiritual to you? Or are we talking about something else?
  9. And I've answered, several times. I told them that we believe mostly the same things apart from God. Got no response. Then we got onto the spiritual question to which I requested a definition from the 'interviewer' to further the conversation. I didn't get that and if you have a look a lot of the responses are a few word responses. Hence my last post. Also they didn't state they are here to interview us. They said "My reason for joining is I'm interested in what Ex Christians believe after they apostatize." So I was attempting conversation that would lead down those lines, but meaningful conversations only work if both parties contribute sufficiently. Or else it is, dare I say it again, a waste-of-time. (Definition previously given) And if you think that's me being combative... wait until you see me really combative
  10. Haha, it is a bit ominous I guess. Biology mate. People react differently to different things. That's the really short basic answer.
  11. Bang on. @DarkBishop This will be likely my final report. By the evening of the second day, (so about 30 hours in) I was feeling more tired than usual and had a worn down feeling as if I'd worked really hard for 12 hours. I had a good sleep that night and woke up perky. I can lift my arm above the shoulder no problems. By the 48 hour mark I wouldn't have known I'd had a vaccine shot apart from a lingering tenderness in my arm. As of now I'm pretty much over any symptoms. I'll let you know if anything else develops that I think is related, but other than that this is it. Good luck with your 2nd jab mate.
  12. I said it's often NOT the same. So out of my entire post in which I specifically ask for, and I quote myself "So if you can properly define spiritual, and perhaps propose criteria by which we might know if something is a spiritual experience as opposed to just an emotional experience then we can have a talk around it." You pick out the bit about me pointing out the problems with spirituality definitions and fire a nonsensical 6 word question back that fails to address my question for you. Let me define something for you in this case: "Waste-of-time" : A person who comes with the pretence of wanting to have a conversation, but in fact does not contribute meaningful content to that conversation.
  13. Tucker Carlson is having a go at NZ's Covid response... dude, I don't think your own news network takes you seriously. Why would we?

  14. @DarkBishop Just over 24 hours. Arm hurts quite a bit - painful to lift it above shoulder height. This is expected and happened with first dose. I do feel a bit more tired than usual and have weird minor aches over the body. Not enough to make me stop working, but enough for me to think, yeah this isn't my usual shtick. I do have a minor headache, but I always get headaches so cannot tell if its just me, or a result of vaccine. No problems with eating etc.
  15. My quick thoughts here are that what you guys are calling "faith" is really just some level/degree of trust or confidence in something, or at worst irrational hoping. Like me, I have faith that one day my bank account will have 1 million in it, or is that just hoping? When we use "faith" like this we take it out of its original context and use it to describe something for which we already have words for. One atheist I've listened to describes faith as believing in things for which there is no evidence. If you had the evidence you wouldn't need faith to believe. So you might say you have faith in the mechanic to fix your car, but unless he is a really shitty mechanic what you really have is trust and confidence in his skills based on (possibly) prior experience, his qualifications, and other customers good reports.
  16. What is your definition of spiritual? Sam Harris does talk about spirituality, but often its not the same as what a religious person means. It's usually so poorly defined and understood that people describe watching the sun set as a 'spiritual' experience. If that's the case, then I also am spiritual. However if you are referring to something or other that is outside our reality (Like say if you thought that spiritual was the spirit of God moving in you) then no I don't believe in the spiritual. So if you can properly define spiritual, and perhaps propose criteria by which we might know if something is a spiritual experience as opposed to just an emotional experience then we can have a talk around it.
  17. I'm all for people having the freedom to make their own decisions, but I'm also pragmatic rather than ideological (Well I like to think so lol) So I am aware that most of the time we don't make decisions in a vacuum. Thus my decisions can affect the lives of others. So in your example above, not wearing a seat belt doesn't just affect your safety. It has an impact on friends and family if you are killed, it can affect rescue and medical personal that have to deal with the aftermath etc. So you cannot look at things simply from an individuals freedom. You need to look at it from a holistic societal approach: If we let individuals have this freedom what is the over all impact? As a society you want to hit the sweet spot between absolute freedom (which imo is anarchy) and absolute regulation and tyranny. We Western countries seem to be doing an ok job. (PS we should acknowledge that you and I are also talking about different societies - we have public healthcare here, you have private insurance pays healthcare I think it is. So your point about insurance companies off the hook simply doesn't apply here) On the mark of the beast: Yeah that shits been around for years. Humans need a boogy man to rail against it seems.
  18. So far this thread is meh. No real response to our posts. Just a whole lot of "lots of mods" or "what does your avatar mean?" @SouthernSound Can you please clarify what you mean by your question "what do we believe"? I pointed out that I probably believe most of the things you do. Do you have a response to that in light of your opening post?
  19. No, not everyone, but moderators tend to be fairly active (Probably part of the reason they are moderators).
  20. @DarkBishop So I just had my second Pfizer dose an hour ago. So far no symptoms whatsoever so that gets me out of the danger zone. Will let you know how I feel tomorrow.
  21. Well I believe a lot of things. I believe water is wet. The earth is a sphere. I will died if I jump off a 50 storey building. (Haven't tested that one yet!) I believe in pretty much all the things you do, I just don't believe in a magical sky daddy with anger issues and violent tendencies any more. Maybe it would be better to ask why I don't believe in your particular deity? But then I can just ask you why you don't believe in any other deities except the Christian ones.
  22. I was admittedly being a bit tongue in cheek there and didn't think you thought they did absolutely nothing. My point being that I think they do more than what people might perceive. Oh also, I should clarify, because re reading my post it looks like it was aimed at you DB, it wasn't. I was responding directly to you, but the last paragraph in particular is of a general nature - "you" in that paragraph should be read as whoever. I wasn't saying tough luck to you if you don't get the vaccine. Sorry if it came across as that. Also congrats on getting your first dose. My second Pfizer is this Thursday. I can let you know how it does if you like.
  23. You wouldn't convict them of probably killing someone. You convict them for not taking reasonable precaution if that was the route we were going down. Biden hails announcement as FDA gives full approval to Pfizer’s Covid vaccine | Vaccines and immunisation | The Guardian Come again? I know its only just happened, but a lot of the approval process is red tape rather than testing actual effectiveness. This is the one area where you might have a point. The virus mutates fast and so we have a challenge in keeping vaccines effective against them. The Pfizer vaccine for instance is still effective against Delta, but not as effective as it was against the former main strain. I'm not going to bother arguing the rest of the points. I'm pissing in the wind at this point. Fun at first, but then just gets icky. We are not going to agree and every time I pull out a study you guys will pull out some other study then we'll be arguing who's study was better. I leave with this: Ultimately I wouldn't care about people getting vaccinated or not if they only affected themselves. If you don't want to get the vaccine then die well tough lucky buddy, nature sucks. The only reason we here have a conflict is because of increase risk an unvaccinated person presents to both myself and people I care about. Yeah, I know, you disagree, and think vaccines do nothing. I guess time will be the ultimate arbiter.
  24. These two quotes are basically the same and I think a case to counter them can be built. First we need some facts which I hope we all agree on. The facts are (and anyone can dig this up very easily) that: 1)vaccinated people do not spread the disease to the extent unvaccinated people do. In fact the reduction is significant., though variable depending on the vaccine and the strain. This is done because the viral load is reduced. 2) Vaccinated people do not get as bad symptoms or require hospitalisation as much as unvaccinated people. This is because the vaccine has taught the immune system how to better deal with the virus. 3) Vaccinated people do not die at the same rates as unvaccinated people or have as high rates of 'long covid' for the same reason as 2. Thus your points in the quote above misses the point when it comes to liability. We know that vaccines unequivocally reduce spread and help people if they do catch it. To suggest other wise is paramount to saying you shouldn't wear a life jacket because some people who wear life jackets drown anyway. Thus we can build a case around personal responsibility and liability for not taken an action that a reasonable person should have been able to foresee would produce harm. To both of yours and @TABA point about holding people liable for spreading the disease: I think one could mount a strong case for this. A captain of a boat is held liable if he doesn't have life jackets on board and someone drowns. A driver is held liable if the seatbelts in the car weren't working and they knew about it. Likewise because the evidence in support of vaccines is so high, and we know that it works per the 3 facts above, then you could possibly make that case that a reasonable person should be aware of this and are thus accountable if they get infected and spread it to others. This wouldn't apply to vaccinated people because they have undertaken responsible steps in order to reduce their risk of infecting someone. Similar to how a captain of a boat is not held liable for someone on his boat drowning IF he did not irresponsible action and ensured he was carrying all necessary safety equipment. Note for my boating example I'm using NZ law. From clips I've seen of Florida (Shout out to wavy boats - go check him out on youtube) I don't think safety is even a known word there! Now, I don't think that is actually the way to go (Mandatory vaccination and holding unvaccinated people liable). However I do support other measures which I think meets the sweet spot of personal choice and responsibility. That is you are not forced to get a vaccine (All the pro individual rights people happy) however you won't be allowed in public mass gathering places, on planes, visit other countries etc without a vaccine passport. That helps keeps society safe. Everyone is actually unhappy because the pro individual rights are unhappy because they can't go to football, and the pro vaccine peeps are unhappy because there is still the risk of unvaccinated people floating about. Apparently when everyone is unhappy you've reached the best possible compromise. Again, there will be some disagreement among us as to whether such a vaccine passport, or banning from attending public places should be Government mandated or left to people/ business to decide, but this is where I see the future going and quite possibly its actually going to be a mix of both. Maybe Governments stop unvaccinated people coming into their country, but leave their own citizens to decide who is allowed into what premises.
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