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ag_NO_stic last won the day on June 2

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About ag_NO_stic

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    Authentic Pastafarian
  • Birthday June 6

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    Food. Life. People. Laughter.
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    I am Jess. My name's a good start.

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  • Still have any Gods? If so, who or what?
    Damn good sandwiches elicit "hallelujahs" from me.

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  1. ag_NO_stic

    Married to a Christian

    I haven't read all the replies, so I'm sorry if this has already been said. From a female perspective, brokenness and humility are two things that influence me. My husband and I have had many an insane fight, but if he ever sat down with me and was like, "I am scared as hell, I can feel us drifting apart, I don't want to lose you, I may not understand everything you tell me, but I just really love you," it might help. Show her that you are not angrily spurning christianity, that you don't have bad motives, that you want to find truth and you can't hear Jesus anymore, which is scary based on what you've been believing. Another approach, might be to show your openmindedness to her by just letting her see the questions you're struggling with. Let her see the wrestling and be vulnerable, that can go a long way. She might, in trying to answer your questions, see the truth. I say this because I was exactly like your wife lol. I was pretty gungho on Jesus, I was the one with the standards that wouldn't date the nonchristian boys. In my own personal quest for being a better Christian, I broke. If she can't answer them, maybe you can face deconversion jokes. The best advice I got on this site was to just be calm and breathe. Time is a HUGE factor here, things just need to settle down for a good while. Don't try to deconvert anyone in a frenzy, just be a good person and demonstrate that you have not changed much of who you are. Your wife is probably scared shitless, she needs to know you're still a team. Maybe put everything in a song for her, let the emotion out. Be the best husband you can be, show her you don't need religion or god for that. If she is still staying with you and not leaving, just demonstrate all the "fruits of the spirit" and then, when she is less freaked and defensive, move from there.
  2. Re-post lol. I am so overwhelmed by all there is to have an opinion on nowadays that I regularly just think "ah fuck it," and stress eat ice cream lol.
  3. I think about that a lot too. I just can't imagine. I think a lot of us are more lucky than we even realize, I try to remind myself of that. And then I go and jump out of a car like a dumbass and give myself medical bills that weren't even pre-existing lol. What do I know anyway, right?
  4. I agree. It hit me like a truck, I kept reading through and not having much issue with what was being said, my perspective just seemed a bit more independent. I feel like it's SO IMPORTANT to stress that I still have no problem with "doing my bit so we can collectively help," I am just worried about generalizing people as vulnerable collectively and I also don't love feeling "shamed" for being more independent or wanting to focus on some of my own problems too. I feel like some of my concerns or reservations are viewed as not validating what many POCs go through, of which I have no understanding, and that's not the case. It's just I have my own shit too, so where's the line?
  5. I have two responses: 1) Exception to the rule 2) It's not the exception to the rule and maybe life isn't so bad? I am inclined more towards the second, but there are more kinks when it's so large scale with so many different opinions.
  6. It really seems like you just want to argue with me. If this is not the case, I might be misunderstanding you. You imply that, by disagreeing, that I have not accepted reality when in fact I only know my own reality. I have already said that I don't know what it's like to live in these situations, I'm not sure what else you want except for me to just agree with you flat out. To me, I would much rather find a way to stop it, though I have no clue, than just bitch. The fact is, you are generalizing whites as much as you think I'm generalizing blacks. I acknowledge historical atrocities, I don't understand why you cannot acknowledge that many people in poverty are not angels who do no wrong. People make bad decisions sometimes, the consequences are part of the stark reality I have accepted. Life is hard for everyone, not just people in Compton or other such neighborhoods. It seems to me that we view reality differently, not that I have not accepted it. It's not your view or the highway, it's just different.
  7. I was actually not personally offended, I didn't take what she said as anything against me at all. I find the argument to be offensive to many, not necessarily to me. But, Orbit can't not offend others with her opinions, that's just life. I actually see what you're saying about generalizing successful black people, I feel that white people are generalized by non-representative examples. Fair enough, Oprah or my black roommate can't be compared to Compton, just like Bush can't be compared to me. What I am questioning is how your argument is "grounded" in statistical evidence to begin with. We have statistics, but the correlations and causations are how we are interpreting them, which is differently. I'm trying really hard not to take this part as, "here, maybe an example of white people will make you care more," lol. I recognize that this is not the case, it has actually led me to take a look at what you and I see differently. I was raised from birth to take care of myself and my loved ones. Work my ass off. Don't make a choice if I can't handle the consequences, so consider my behavior carefully. I do not, in saying this, think that you were not raised this way. I'm saying that I tend to view things from a "Some people get cancer, it's unjust and unfair and I can't imagine what going through it must be like and I will try to help....but I am not the one with cancer ultimately and I can only do so much. You will have to play the hand life gives you." I recognize that there are many ways to critique this perspective and I also know that personal anecdote is also not representative of anyone else. But it does affect how I view my problems and other people's problems. I think if we all try to just understand each other, we could get somewhere.....but all my understanding in the world will not change how people who are poor and/or black want to live their life. I am not denying what those of you who are disagreeing with me are saying or "refuting it" so much as wanting to look at the bigger picture, examine all the factors, and suggest that an increase in personal responsibility could help too. Critiquing a study does not mean I don't think we still have work to do., I am not an advocate for the GOP by any means, I'm not just a "boot straps" person. There just seem to be some differing opinions on to what degree I am responsible for others. It doesn't logically follow, at least to me, that you can point to a few racists as proof of systemic racism and then say it's generalizing when I point to successful black people. Perhaps this really and truly is an issue of the impoverished being discriminated against, as opposed to just race. I recognize that there is a correlation between race and poverty, and US historical racism doesn't help.... but we disagree on how much responsibility white people have on that. Historically, I think your points have merit. I think my points have merit too. EDIT: My cancer example could easily be misunderstood, I just want to make clear that my point was everyone has shit happen to them and you have to deal with it whether you want to or not. Someone else cannot always take care of things for you, even if you didn't do anything to warrant what happened.
  8. I wish you could hear my tone here, I'm coming off a little snarky, just because I'm opinionated. I think we could always stand to be more educated than we already are, it's not like I know everything or am some kind of expert nor am I claiming to be. I'm assuming you don't live in Compton either, so taking a little field trip there doesn't take away from my points. I am familiar with Compton, though I've never been there personally. I actually have been to massively underfunded schools though, a couple largely black, certainly impoverished. I was an intern for a company that sought to better their community by involvement and worked as an assistant to a school speaker, I've seen several lacking, underfunded schools. Which is why I am a HUGE advocate for an education system reform. You are assuming that I "assume that the impact and realities of racism are a thing of the past," when in fact, I don't. I just think many liberal policies that are trying and intend to help are actually worse. I think factors that are NOT the impact of racism are blamed on it, and I do think it is less of a barrier than it could be. Have I seen poverty as much as I could, no, have I seen many non-impoverished black people because of the personally responsible decisions that they make? Yes. Do I think there is a cultural victim mindset? In some ways, yes. I think it is less "victim-y" and more of a misunderstanding, possibly due to lack of access to education or good opportunities. You're almost strawmanning me a little, I never said anything about the free market or that people should just "over come their mentalities." And you're almost "No True Scotsmanning" me, which is ironic considering your name, by implying that no true advocate/ally for people of color would hold the views that I hold. You and I can agree on some problems, many problems, but we do not necessarily agree on the cause of the problems or how to resolve them. I would be naive to assume or assert that our nation's history has not affected people of color, but the fact that so many do overcome it and make something of themselves shows the importance of both a) personal responsibility, and b) perhaps there is a culture in impoverished, black communities that is making some factors outside their control far worse. I'm not saying there aren't issues between races, I'm not saying there aren't things we need to address as a society. Do we need to address the racist behavior of trying to stop the black vote if that's been demonstrated, YES! If we make things as helpful and available as possible and others choose not to vote, that's not on the white man. We need culture reform, education reform, access to resources, empathy for our fellow humans, etc....I just don't understand why we can't talk about how people have been unjustly hurt AND acknowledge the existence of poor decision making/lack of responsibility. EVERYONE needs to take responsibility, not just whites on behalf of blacks/POC. We need to avoid "the soft bigotry of low expectations."
  9. To me, this is very offensive. To assume I was only referring to someone like Oprah or Obama or Morgan Freeman or Will Smith or John Legend or Chris Rock or Whitney Houston or Wanda Sykes or any politicians of color (those were just a few black ones) all the athletes, actors/actresses, I can keep going...I was referring to your average middle/upper class person of color. Some people acknowledge racist interactions without using it as a scapegoat, I'm not speaking for others, these are Larry Elder's sentiments. We have a sincere plethora of examples that others of color are not held down by the white man and they don't like it when white people step into to pity them. I think wellnamed made excellent points about examining how we can make it easier on the impoverished, who seem more affected by a culture of poverty than racism. To assume that people of color who apply themselves, work hard and make responsible decisions and become successful are just the exception to the rule is a very concerning concept/assumption. I am certainly bothered about some of these politicians imposing regulations with the id laws, which is why I'd be on board with some of wellnamed's suggestions. I am most compelled by making election day a holiday/better access to ids for those in poverty.
  10. I don't think anyone is claiming it's not a science, at least I'm certainly not. I was a sociology major, I'm fascinated by social science. I just want the stats to be accurate, definitions clearly defined, biases to be as controlled as possible, and to measure what we're actually trying to measure. That is out of desire for academic integrity, out of respect for social science. I'd be curious to know how poverty affected things. Or religion. Or education level. I see any number of ways these stats could be affected, why is everyone so focused on race? Which states' numbers were compared in this study, this affects potential disparities. It makes more sense to compare the state to its own historical numbers, but then you have different things to control for. Do you mind giving me a more current example, @Orbit? There are many people of color who are outspoken that they are not the victims of systemic racism, such as Larry Elder, they just are not interviewed much. I'm happy to fight against an establishment that is demonstrating racist behavior, but just a vague "systemic racism" is hard to pinpoint and resolve; leaves room for people to milk it. I'm surprised people are so surprised, they seem like common sense, rational, normal ass questions.
  11. Interesting, I'll chew on this. Have some mixed opinions, but your hypothetical law makes sense to me. I'm more compelled by "equal start" than "equal outcomes," so your solution seems to even things out more.
  12. Apparently, I'm really dense or something. I read through the article and didn't see how voter id laws are racist, I don't see how what you posted demonstrates racism. I see a correlation between voter id laws and race, but I don't see how imposing an ID to vote in the election (when we have id requireme for all KINDS of things). I am not trying to be an asshole here, I just don't really see it. I'm certainly not anti-science, but I am VERY skeptical of certain kinds of research and their conclusions. My research methods class in college destroyed my understanding of how data can be screwed up by biases or incorrect conclusions when perhaps there are simply correlations. It's all about the importance of measuring what you're trying to measure, comparing apples to apples, and just HOW HARD that can be to achieve. You can ask the same type of survey question different ways and get different answers. Or how do you measure "happier" for example? More smiles per hour? What about if your subjects have different smile per hour rates? What if, as the old adage about the brighter the smile, the more in pain. I smile a LOT but that is to make others feel at ease many times, not reflecting my happiness. How was this sample size collected, it might have left out an entire section of "types of white people" lol, This is measuring the ones that are willing to take surveys, there is a whole type of people group that don't/won't do them or doesn't have time. Depending on the types of questions, what definitions or terms were used? Could they have been misunderstood by the survey taker? Or has time changed certain definitions so that we aren't measuring what we set out to anymore? Now that "cat-calling" is seen by many as a form of harassment, has harassment "gone up" or are comparing stats that only dealt with assault with our new definitions of assault to make it look like there is more now. I could go on, but I have hopefully made my point. How did these people measure "intolerance," because I think our other thread on this topic sheds some light on how many different people view what tolerance actually is. Hopefully that makes sense. I'm also not saying it's "wrong," I'm just a skeptic about surveys that make correlation sound like causation.
  13. For the record, I agree with this. This is where I don't claim to know anything other than the questionable methodology for this statement. If it's a hard and fast "stat" that doesn't look good for white people, I'll have to get over it and hope to create change within my racial group. I object to the way this particular study was done and their conclusions. Surely you'd agree that a checkmark next to race for a measurable crime or the measurable poverty line to keep a record is NOT THE SAME as drawing conclusions from questionable polls with questionable terminology. I would say this even if christians were being misrepresented here, I don't think the study is measuring what it set out to measure. You can't measure "racism" easily without allowing for biases. I can find correlation between any two things in SOME WAY, that's why they don't claim to know the cause.
  14. In all seriousness, how are voter ID laws racist? Trying to prevent voter fraud is good..... To me, saying they are "racist," assumes that a person of color can't get an ID, which is racist as HELL. Also...."correlation" is just that....they are correlated. This article is all kinds of biased, in my opinion lol. My research methods professor would be all over how the demographic was chosen, the terms/definitions used in the article, and probably the conclusion. Rape might be correlated with wearing bowling shoes, but the cause might be the sketchy ass back alley next to the bowling place which is a poorly lit playground for a potential rapist. Just saying.
  15. ag_NO_stic

    Tolerance vs intolerance - where is the middle ground?

    Okay, y'all, I made it to almost the end of page 6 over the span of several days. I have been reading, thinking, liking posts, thinking some more, considering.....etc. I'm sure you're all really holding your breath hah. I'm confused about what to address, so I'm kinda referencing the OP with regard to freedom of speech, bigotry, etc. I think this site should be able to do whatever they want, mod-wise.....but we do run the risk of an echo chamber and we also run the risk of other people leaving who won't bend over for the evil commies. I want so badly for everyone to feel this sincerity, I am doing my best to listen and hear what you're saying, not just fight. I'm trying to get it, to consider your perspective. I am (most of the time) INFJ-T (I get INTJ enough to be relevant) which has been brought into this discussion. I know that this is not much of a science, but I do think it helps to see what kinds of things people value or whatever. I'm a weird ass blend of getting my feelings hurt easily and not giving a fuck. I think, ultimately "truth" should be pursued at the cost of feelings, but that being said, feelings are important too and they shouldn't just be written off. That puts me in a weird spot when my defense of free speech sometimes bites me in the ass. It really can hurt. It hurts my feelings most when people assume something from things I don't say or intend. I don't mean that in a trivial way either. I come off like a firecracker sometimes sure, but I do sincerely feel hurt when something I put a lot of thought into is written off or dismissed or misrepresented to mean something else. I think many of us understand this hurt or frustration. If something I never intended hurts another person, I feel like a piece of shit for hurting someone else and then feel even shittier that I was taken for the kind of person to actually try to hurt or demean a fellow person. I have no intention of ever using my words to purposefully hurt. I think it is important for y'all to hear that just because I, since I can only speak for myself, really and truly sympathize with some proposed concerns. - I don't want the newly deconverted to leave or never join because they are turned off by aspects of this site - I don't want someone from LGBTQ+ (or any marginalized group really) to experience nastiness from other people in our species - I don't want free speech, in general, to be abused by those who want to prove a point that they can use whatever the hell words they want - I don't want to hurt other people, in general, lol. - I want progress, I want the world to get better for all of us We can truly agree on some of these concerns and fears, I just disagree with some other suggested problems and I also eschew the proposed solution of increased modding or censorship of people in general. Not one of us has ANY right to monitor the thoughts or speech of another, though this site can mod posts if they choose to do so. We cannot, as individuals, be responsible for everyone else's feelings all the time or see the future. It's exhausting to keep track of what offends who constantly, especially when you don't intend to do so ever. Furthermore, I'm confused about whether or not this is a "don't say hurtful things" discussion or not because it seems like a "don't critique [insert favored group here]" kind of discussion. I'm not sure which it is, but I'm certainly not trying to say hurtful things. I understand that many of you care deeply for people who are disenfranchised, that you want to be a voice for the unheard or to stand up against bullying because you are caring people. I find this admirable, deeply so. I think it's easy to misunderstand each other on this forum and I don't want to be misunderstood as saying something I'm not. Since I disagree fundamentally with some perspectives on this post about who is being oppressed and who isn't, where do we go from here? If some of you think, because I have voiced strongly anti-feminist opinions, that I am bullying a fellow woman for her opinions....when I'm not.....then my feelings get hurt because I wasn't trying to bully progress has been made....and now both parties are offended and defensive. If you want to stand up for the oppressed, and I agree, but you claim [insert group] is oppressed and I don' what? We can't just claim our opinion as the true one, nor can we just be expected to roll over, nor can we start personally attacking others for lack of education or understanding. Why is there not a call for thicker skin, why is censorship the only one being discussed here? We, as a group, have a tendency to over exaggerate how perceived bad status quo or social change will play out, I see this everywhere. "The gays will destroy the American family," "letting black people or women vote is going to lead to the destruction of America," "the LGBTQ folks may as well be stoned if we do nothing," "The democrats are going to tax us until we're basically communists," "the republicans are capitalist racists who, if they're elected, are going to make abortion illegal again and seek profit at the expense of the middle class," "if we make alcohol legal, the sin and debauchery will cause the lord to smite us," "if we make weed legal, they're going to flaunt it in our faces and those potheads will go broke laying around nothing and it will give our kids cancer," "Hillary's going to sell us to the devil," "Trump's going to bomb or nuke everyone," I could go on. In general, our perceived causes and opinions aren't often right to the extent we think or predict they will be. Maybe, members of the LGBTQ+ community are JUST FINE with these discussions, maybe those who are offended should speak for themselves that they have been offended personally. Maybe we shouldn't generalize the LGBT community because they are made of individuals with different opinions. I know Stephen Fry is a liberal homosexual male who is vehement about the historical repercussions of silencing speech. For those of you who identify with the term "feelers," I'm trying desperately to explain that it really seems like only the feelings of certain groups are valued or it feels like only certain people's rights are worth fighting for. When one group is continuously seemingly shit on by another people groups on behalf of still others, what will eventually happen? No one gets heard, certain group opinions are favored, the ones not favored stop giving a fuck about the feelings of the ones everyone cares about. It's like fuck any mildly conservative person's opinion, who cares if it hurts their feelings compared to gay people's. Fuck any white person's opinion, they've had long enough to speak. Fuck any man's opinion, it's the women's time to shine. I could go on. It seems to me that some peoples' values, which are mere opinions, include generalizing about the hypothetical feelings or degradation of perceived oppression in others. When that oppression is challenged, it's like people go on the attack. If this is not intended, I get that....but that is what people like me are experiencing or feeling. Instead of arguing with me (though I'm open to criticism of course), can some of y'all just see how we got there? Can we maybe all just acknowledge the other's perspective, without saying "you're right or wrong?" Can some of y'all understand why some of us start to feel less inclined to consider the feelings of others when it feels like we just get shit on all the time? Especially when many of us are NOT GUILTY of doing what some members of that social group have done. If I do a long drawn out post such as this, responding with "You're just mad you can't tell n****r jokes," is your right ........ but that's just not true. And that's deeply, personally offensive to me. And you either care or you don't care. And if you decide that you do care, but not enough to change anything, why should I? And if I decide to tolerate your offensive untruths anyway, that would be the point, right? I've gotten over myself a little and accepted that you have meaningful values too, so why can't you (generic you btw) do the same? Why must I accept your assertions, even if facts say otherwise, because of how it could affect a certain group of people? What gives anyone the right to label anyone else, in general, instead of tackling bad ideas?! I can say MEAN things and not hate Christians. I say NICE things and absolutely HATE Christians. I can joke about Christians and, ultimately, mean NO OFFENSE or HATE towards them. Funny shit is funny shit, ask John Crist lol. I recognize that many of you believe words have real power, so....what do you make of my comments above? In my view.....nothing ultimately happens. When we agnostics/atheists band together, we can make social change. But my individual words used for "hate" aren't really doing much. If a Christian screams and hollers that I have offended them, what do I do then? Shutup and not critique their beliefs? Apologize? Have I learned any sort of lesson, or have I internalized some frustration? Was it because of a joke (that I still plan to make?) Does calling them "atheist phobic" do anything at all? Are we christianphobic because we disagree or have extreme and vocal distaste for its ideology? Or do you think we are all educated enough to know when we're being told some bullshit with which we disagree? Am I hateful or committing a hate crime by disagreeing with a christian? I think, when bad ideas are not dealt with but silenced, you end up with "hate groups" like the KKK. People learn to find people who think like them before they make the same joke they would have before, calling names or censorship does nothing.