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ag_NO_stic last won the day on November 29 2017

ag_NO_stic had the most liked content!

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About ag_NO_stic

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    Authentic Pastafarian
  • Birthday June 6

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    Food. Life. People. Laughter.
  • More About Me
    I am Jess. My name's a good start.

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  • Still have any Gods? If so, who or what?
    Damn good sandwiches elicit "hallelujahs" from me.

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  1. Y'all need to hit a blunt or something, christ. xD
  2. "The Problem of Morality" ?

    Correction: Education based in Biology.
  3. "The Problem of Morality" ?

    Another thing to consider is the lack of scientific education that formed some of these base beliefs and root moralities. If homosexual intercourse was being practiced without issue and then there was a period of famine, a series of coincidences could lend to a belief that "god is frowning upon ____." Think about the rain dances to please the gods, worship of the sun, etc. This lack of access to knowledge we have now can cause some straaaange (to us) rituals and belief systems.
  4. "The Problem of Morality" ?

    How fascinating, I love learning all this. Thanks for your patience, I readily accept my ignorance on this topic lol.
  5. "The Problem of Morality" ?

    Hopefully this point does not come across as sarcasm or being a jerk. I guess I just don't see many elephants dressing up in their Sunday best for elephant church to worship an elephant savior. Or dressing in in little elephant suits and going to their little elephant justice system and standing in front of an elephant judge to determine if an elephant criminal will go elephant prison. Or elephants inventing televisions and then marketing to other elephants for capitalistic gain or whatever. If we're super advanced and I'm just stupid, I can accept that. I am referring to the sentience that seems to mark so much of our social behavior as opposed to just instinct. I really am ignorant about evolution, for the record, I'm not trying to be an asshole. I am following what you're saying for the record. In all seriousness, for all I know elephants (and other animals for that matter) have their own social behaviors that make no sense to us since we're not in that social group. Our social behaviors don't really affect other animals that much, they have their own systems.
  6. "The Problem of Morality" ?

    I think what confuses me most about your argument, though I still find it compelling, is that the latent apologist in me (though I am slowly suffocating it) wants to question why humans seem so different than other mammals. I've been trained from birth to not accept evolution as an acceptable answer for this even though the better part of me is happy to accept that evolution explains it even if I don't understand it. I just don't see why there seems to be a deep "moral" objection in me as opposed to "acceptance of the rules as part of the society." Does this make sense? I completely agree with your summary of Kant's argument though, that makes sense. My extremely limited understanding of atoms and how we've evolved and how life came to be does not satisfactorily explain our sentience in the pool of seemingly non-sentient animals. I'll have to check this out! I like shows like that.
  7. "The Problem of Morality" ?

    This makes complete sense to me. I'm still learning about evolution, but this was "well-simplified" for me lol. I tend to be a "complicator of things" so I appreciate the reminder to stick to Occam's Razor lol.
  8. "The Problem of Morality" ?

    I see where you're coming from, his leap from objective morality is not convincing to me in the slightest. But I was troubled, as someone who tends to stay pretty true to "agnostic" where I just don't think we can know either way, I wasn't sure what I thought about a deity in general. "Turek and you and I all live the Western Civilization morality" is exactly what I was thinking. Which brings me back to its objectivity. It makes me feel better that you were picking up on that too.
  9. "The Problem of Morality" ?

    Thanks, LF, I'll check it out! I have already watched half of this and I think I got interrupted or something, I don't remember finishing it. As I watched the debate with Hitch and Turek, all I could think to myself was "No, Turek is wrong and it feels like he's misrepresenting things" but I couldn't but my finger on it. It's easy to feel overwhelmed by Turek because he throws so much info at you and presents what he says as just common sense fact. It's easy to completely miss how deceptive he can be. All I could think was "There is objective morality" sounds like an assertion with no basis and I am not convinced of it's existence. If I'd been in that debate, that is likely the approach I would have taken.
  10. "The Problem of Morality" ?

    This is absolutely fascinating. It also, as I was reading, didn't surprise me that much. Like what you're saying makes common sense, even though you worded it in a different way. It just.....makes sense. Not sure why Christians wouldn't be able to see that this explains why the OT God and the NT God (which reflects our current values) and that they are almost completely different characters.
  11. "The Problem of Morality" ?

    Will respond tomorrow when I'm not on my phone. I really appreciate all the contributions!
  12. "The Problem of Morality" ?

    I just looked up the term "memetics" and (not only did it blow my mind a bit) but it helped explain to my own brain why I find the social element of morality so compelling. Thanks for this, really, I'll check this out in more detail! I can almost hear every apologist I've ever met clucking their tongues and saying to you, "but GAWD wrote it awn yer hawrt." Yes, for the record, I think you summarized his argument succinctly. @sdelsolray did a great job providing me with a term to study and now you've also really helped capture the heart of what convinced me about social morality. Even the most basic study of different cultures, to me, showed that morality can in no way be objective. I actually would really like to see a debate where someone puts the burden of proof on the concept of morality's objectivity. Thank you for that "yes" hahaha, sometimes that really just helps. That's the direction I was heading in my mental responses to Turek. I'll also check out that thread, I love more reading and exploration of these concepts. I wish everyone in the world could take a cross-cultural class of some kind, it destroys that "West is Best" idea we have of our own morals being objective.....had you seen that debate today or was it new for you? I'm glad you enjoyed it!
  13. "The Problem of Morality" ?

    Also, for anyone who cares to hear Turek articulate his argument better than me, I've included the URL time stamped where he makes his assertion. Thank you!
  14. Hi, all! I'm trying to keep melodramatic intros to a minimum....I just always feel like I need to give this long drawn out reason for why I wrestle with things lol. So, I've been enjoying various debates between believing vs. non-believing "greats." There have been a couple debates featuring Frank Turek (he wrote "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist) and I'm aware of some of the deceptive tactics he uses. Regardless of my distaste for the man, I find the question he posed personally troubling. He basically pointed out that our moral objections to the bible have no grounds outside the bible or a higher being. In an "evolutionary worldview" (lol) it is survival of the fittest, so why we would take issue with the behaviors of god in the bible, etc. I recognize that this is an off-shoot of the "well, where do you get your morality from" argument, but it still struck me as different. He's not saying "Where do you get your morality from," like we're used to hearing, he's saying our moral high ground has no grounds or relevance in a system that celebrates survival of the fittest. Why should I find rape intolerable if it happens in the animal kingdom without the issue of "morals." There are plenty of species where the male forcibly reproduces with the female, it does not appear to be an issue of sentient morality but of animal instinct. I personally hold the view that our morality is socially constructed paired with basic empathy and not wanting to do to others what we would not want to have done to us. Please keep in mind that my education on evolution has been a very slow-going one and is still pretty limited as I work through all the information available in this world. I guess it feels like a bit of cognitive dissonance all over again, I find the behaviors of god reprehensible and yet I feel like I can also acknowledge where Turek is coming from objectively. Do my personal objections simply boil down to the rules we've made for ourselves in Western Civilization? Am I missing something here? I would really appreciate feedback on this, it's bugging me a lot. Thanks for your time!
  15. BAA

    I've retyped a response so many times now and nothing does BAA justice. I just found out and I'm shocked, grieved, and tearing up. It hurts. Yet, even in his death, his parting words have filled me with wonderment and appreciation. We all may be made up only of atoms, but special were his indeed.