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About FreeAtLast

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    Religious Discussion, Philosophy, Politics, Football (Soccer), Civ 5
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    Recently became an agnostic-atheist. Call me Max.

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  • Still have any Gods? If so, who or what?

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  1. Sorry if I came off that way - and your absolutely right. I should probably rephrase this to "The Christian God" rather than "God" because, your right, people define God in different ways. Good catch. Thanks!
  2. Nice. I like that quote! Richard Carrier is the man.
  3. This may already be here, and if so, I apologize. I dont want to take the time to read through 500 pages of threads lol Today, ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: Logical proofs of Gods non-existence. “But wait”, you may say, “you can't prove a negative!” I beg to differ, you absolutely can if the thing in question is self-contradictory. For example, take this statement: Married Bachelors exist Now, how can I know that, somewhere, at some time married bachelors did exist? Because, it cannot exist. It is self-contradictory. Its very simple. Let’s move on. Next I would like to acquaint you with the square of opposition: Now, this square is very helpful in logical problems. If you don't understand it, I would be happy to explain it to you - or you can take a course on traditional logic and im sure it will come up. As we can see: A (All S is P) and O (Some S is not P) are contradictory. Now allow me to bring this all together and show you how the very nature of the Christian God is contradictory, and thus we can deduce that he cannot exist. 1 God can do anything. (Rev 1:8 says he is Almighty) 2 God is immutable (Cannot change because He is perfect - if He changed He would no longer be perfect and thus could no longer be God. Thus, God cannot change) (Also, there are many Bible verses that say that God cannot change, most Christians will even tell you God cannot change). 3 From 2 we can deduce that God cannot do something (Change). 1 and 3 contradict (A statement = God can do anything, O statement = God cannot do something. Refer to square of opposition if this doesn't make sense to you.) Thus, God cannot exist. Some being cannot be able to do anything and not do something at the same time. It is contradictory! The Christian God Himself is logically self-contradictory. Heres another one: 1 God can do anything. 2 God cannot lie (Heb 6:18) 3 From 2 we can deduce that God cannot do something (Lie). 1 and 3 contradict (A statement = God can do anything, O statement = God cannot do something. Refer to square of opposition if this doesn't make sense to you.) Thus, God cannot exist. We can do this over and over for different things, but I wanted to expand and also show logically that no God who is omnipotent and omniscient could exist. Here’s a dialogue I had with someone (paraphrased of course): Me: Is God omnipotent? Friend: Yes. Me: Is He omniscient? Friend: Yes. Me: So, he knows all things? Friend: Yes. Me: And because he knows all things, He cannot not know something. Friend: Ok. Me: So He cannot do something. Friend: What? Me: He cannot not know. Thats what you said. Friend: Ok, so what? Me: He cannot exist. Friend: HOW? Me: You said He was omnipotent. According to the definition of that statement, omnipotence means that God can do anything. Friend: So? Me: You just said He cannot do something. A being cannot do all things and simultaneously be unable to do something. Thus, God cannot exist. Friend: Listen, (names “experience” they’ve had with God and asks me how it happened if God isn’t real blah blah blah ughh) Anyways, you guys get the picture. God logically cant exist (at least not an omnipotent omniscient, morally perfect, or immutable God) If you noticed any flaw in what I said, feel free to point it out. I have been thinking a lot about this and this took me a while to put into words. I would love any feedback you guys could give me. Thanks!
  4. "We've gotta see the bad to appreciate the good" Saying that you have to experience evil to appreciate goodness is like saying you have to experience death to appreciate life. BS.
  5. Agreed. It makes me both sad and frustrated that good, decent people continue to force themselves to believe in this depraved nonsense. As Hitch said, "Left to themselves, good people will do as much good as they can and evil people will do as much evil as they can. But if you want a good person to do something evil...that takes religion." Only now do I understand what he meant. The person who said these things to me is a very kind, good person. Only religion could warp his mind to accept such horrific stories as not just divine, but good.
  6. I asked someone about this verse when I first started questioning (Thomas Paine had pointed it out in The Age of Reason): “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." - Numbers 31:15-18 Why would such a good God allow this? They said the parents had to die because of their sinfulness (not sure where they got that from) and because they were demon possessed (what?). Basically they made up something that wasnt even in the story to justify their religion (classic). They told me that these children had to die because of their parents sin nature, and that the children where also demon possessed and had genetically inherited evil from their parents. That they were born evil and depraved. As for the young girls who the Israelites dragged off as captives to be subjected to the most grotesque of sexual violations? "I dont know, but God must have a good reason to allow it." So much for family values. And this is why I am sick of Evangelical Christianity.
  7. haha whos your team? Absolutely - being allowed to read different books to engage my mind and challenge my beliefs definitely helped me break free.
  8. I can understand that. I also had my doubts as a child, but at that young age threats of hellfire kept me quiet and submissive. I can also understand liking the hymns people sing, and and having some good church freinds. I enjoyed the songs too, even was in my churches youth band for a brief stunt. I also did (and still do) have great church friends. Its hard to break from all of that, but it feels good.
  9. Glad to be here! It appears to me the most probable and reasonable position to hold. How long have you been an ex-christian? Thanks for the welcome! If your open to recommendations (and assuming you have some free time), I definitely recommend David Hume, Voltaire, Bertrand Russell, Thomas Paine (Age of Reason) and of course any Socratic Dialogue. Well worth your time (totally changed the way I saw the world.)
  10. Thanks! I am glad to have such a warm welcome. I guess, compared to what I have heard from others.
  11. Obvious creator? Not even close. - 99.99% of the universe is completely uninhabitable - in fact the conditions would kill us instantly. The amounts of radiation, high temperatures, and a host of other factors make it nearly impossible for us to exist anywhere else. - As you already pointed out, it's all going to end in one giant, pointless, chaotic oblivion. - Genetic diseases are often caused by genetic copying errors. Autoimmune diseases eat us from the inside out. Who would design a system that can and does kill itself? - I think Neil Tyson pointed this out, but what kind of designer would have waste management and reproduction come from the same area? Seems like a counter intuitive, dangerous, and easy medium to spread disease. - We eat, drink, and breathe out of the same hole, guaranteeing that some percentage of us will choke to death....etc, etc. The list goes on and on! It seems highly unlikely that our universe was designed by any intelligent force who cares for humanity. Its much more probable that what we interpret as design is actually the result of natural selection and evolution.
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