Weezer

Also my thoughts.

In my opinion, in or out of religion, money is not the problem. The "love" of it is the problem in the Bible. Outside the Bible, a money compulsion, or addiction to it is the problem. Perhaps what the biblical writer was referring to?? HA! You aren't thinking of cheating people out of it, are you? For some reason, I doubt that.

In my opinion, reading the Old Testament would confuse anybody that was a half way rational thinker. It gradually occurred to me how inconsistent and cruel God was. Allowing satan to torture Job, and telling abraham to kill his own son, just to test their Faith. And the extreme inconsistency of saying thou shall not kill, or steal, or covet thy neighbors wife in the 10 commandments. Then a few years later telling the Israelites to slaughter the Canaanites and steal their land, and take their wives and daughters. It was okay to kill and steal if it benefited your own tribe. If I remember right, it was justified because the Canaanites were sinful people?? I did not do that. It should be interesting. Let us know what you find.

If universalfriendliness doesn't want us to continue here, he can say so. I personally think he would welcome the discussion. I'm not going to debate you. Simply state my opinion, and you can state yours. But first I want to be sure we are on the same wave length. I am not completely sure what is it you disagree with. Could you explain?

Is there a link to the information?

Davidr, this is a question you should ask your physician.

I can see your point if you only look at the Bible. My conclusions about Jesus came after reading the Gnostic Gospels, and discovering that Jesus wasn't officially declared "divine" until 325 AD at the Council of Nicaea. The church tried to destroy the Gnostics because they didn't support his divinity. It has been years since I did the study, but if I remember correctly, some believe the Gnostics may have won the "battle" if it hadn't been for Roman support of divinity, which eventually helped them remain in power.

That was the Catholic church. Myths. And many things have been attributed to God and Jesus through the years. I saw a man jump out a third story window because Jesus "told him" to do so. If you look at the overall picture of Jewish/Christian religion, there has been change/evolution. And much, if not most, has been due to secular/scientific/legal forces outside the church. It is a very slow process, but religions change when people begin to see them, or parts of them, as invalid.

Another way of viewing their claims. The doctrine of original sin is a self fulfilling prophecy. If you truely believe you are incomplete, and incapable, and need gods help to be saved, then it is so. You are hooked for life, and dependent on the religious police and saviors for guidance.

I was thinking in terms of God destroying people in the flood, and having the Israelites slaughter the Canaanites. Then centuries later having Jesus give the Sermon on the Mount, telling people to love each other, etc. At least from that point on he never caused mass killing, or ordered it to be done. To me, that is a kind of change, or evolutuon. But then, it's all a bunch of convoluted myths anyway.

If Ordinaryclay keeps hanging around here, some of our thinking may begin to soak into his brain. Maybe his unconscious mind is trying to lead him astray??

A thought that crossed my mind early on in the de-conversion process, was why the Bible had different versions of some stories. That didn't make sense if God wanted to give a clear, consistent message. It began to chip away at the idea of an inerrant bible.

Ditto.

Just a few minutes ago I looked at the numbers of people on the forum. There were 4 members, and 24 guests. Several times I have checked those figures and got similar results. So there are lots of people visiting, but very few participating. Hopefully they will find rational, respectful conversation going on.

That is a sarcastic misquote. If he actually existed, I don't think he ever saw himself as God. He was the "son of god." According to the story, he was conditioned to believe that. The Catholic church later invented the "God head," and twisted many things around, and fabricated stuff to suit their wants. To explain how I came to my conclusions, I looked at all the info I could find about Jesus, including the Gnostic gospels. I would not bet my life savings that he actually existed, but eventually decided he may have. If he existed, I believe many things attributed to him were fabricated. Being human, he was inconsistent, but I looked at all the info I could find and tried to sift out what seemed most consistent. The sermon on the mount pretty well sums it up. Yes, he was a divisive figure. He was confronting established religion. That could get you killed, and pit relatives against each other. He was running rampant over some of their rigid rules and traditions, and self serving practices such as the "businesses" in The temple. He advocated some rational thinking about forsaking the Sabbath. And stoning the harlot. He elevated the role of women. He was a liberal in that time period. Even if he did not exist, the story about him pushed the rigid religion of that time period toward more rational thinking. Even if he did not exist, I have respect for the overall story. Like Martin Luther later on, "he" wasn't perfect, but pushed us one step closer to rational thinking in religion, and one step further away from corrupt authoritarian rule. When you are making fun of religion, don't automatically throw everything about it out with the bath water. Their are truths to be found within.