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Posts posted by TruthSeeker0

  1. This site hasn't given me much for a long time. I've hung around to help the newcomers but frankly I'm tired of the lack of decency in this section of the site in particular. It's time for me to move on and find what other people would refer to as an echo chamber, but one that's more aligned with my values. I agree that discussion and disagreement should take place, but in these forums it's too often been with people who just need to prove they're correct and have the last word. Those who are concerned with social justice, are feminists or who hold progressive values get short shrift here as it's too "liberal" of a pill for most to swallow. Eventually they get tired, like I am, and they leave. Y'all take care. 

  2. 12 hours ago, SilentVoice said:

    I was raised in an atheist home. I went to Catholic school for a couple of years but can't remember anything about it. Religious attendance was compulsory but I hardly know anything about it. I looked for the truth in despair and discovered Jesus. Or maybe I was called and predestined. It's exciting to think about it.


    Yeah, thinking of oneself as being a special chosen "called" person is an addiction. That's where the exciting part comes in. It's a natural fit for arrogant people. 

    12 hours ago, SilentVoice said:

    Critical thinking can't be fit inside your own limited frame of reference.

    You'll have to excuse me for laughing at the irony of this one. 


  3. 12 hours ago, SilentVoice said:

    None of the people asking them are worthy to be answered.

    ^^ just get lost. Your arrogance is unbelievable. 

    12 hours ago, SilentVoice said:

    I feel sorry for you guys. But I still want to help.

    No you don't want to help. You want to prove people wrong. If you wanted to help us you'd take your arrogant little self out of here. 

  4. @SilentVoice You're only laughing at evolution because you were likely brought up Bible believing, that there exists a god who made a woman out of a man's rib and all the rest of it. Either that or you bought into being saved and the idea that you'll live forever is intoxicating. Had you been brought up to think purple sea monsters created humans you'd be believing that just as well. 

    In any case you've made your arrogance and lack of critical thinking ability abundantly clear in this thread. What you think is maybe coming off as intelligence to a casual reader is close-mindedness and black and white thinking. 

  5. Why commit crimes then? As if that's the root problem, blacks committing more crime. Are you aware that black people are targeted for the most minor offences by police, charged, and end up in jail or killed at a disproportionate rate in comparison to whites?  Do you really think race didn't play a part in a black man being killed over suspicions of a counterfeit bill? Are you aware that white people get away with a lot of shit in terms of criminality simply because there's racial bias in policing? You keep speaking as if the problem is all with black crime. People go and educate yourselves on how the US justice system, after slavery was abolished, legalized the slave labour of black inmates for a long time. Go and research the *incentive* to keep these prisons operating in the current day context, and exactly who benefits from this. 

    It's as if you want to argue that people who were oppressed and enslaved and dehumanized for hundreds of years, and who continue to be oppressed and dehumanized systematically through racial profiling, somehow have an equal chance out of the gates and the onus is all on them. 


    By "you" I refer to the people in this thread who want to cherry pick their evidence - as if a couple well off black folks are representative of all blacks. 


    The issue by and large is that Americans are not educated about their own history, and they have not come to terms and reconciled with the legacy of slavery and the current day ramifications. I say this as someone who went through the Canadian education system and can say the same thing for my country - we learned that rich white men came up with all the inventions, "founded" and "discovered" this country, were to be applauded for what we have today. That's such a half assed approach to history. I didn't learn much of anything until I started studying university level history.


    When you continue to deny the pain of racialized communities, you'll get nowhere. 


    I'm done here. Have a good day folks.  


  6. 8 hours ago, Bhim said:


    This is a very interesting thread. I hope my comments here won't be considered a distraction of any kind. I'm using @TruthSeeker0's post as a springboard to my own thoughts here, but my comments aren't specifically directed at her. I'm equally interested in @Joshpantera's opinion. I'd like to submit the following for consideration.


    Proposition 1: "Systemic racism" is, on its face, as patently absurd as creationism. I don't consent to take seriously the notion that there exists a statistically significant bias against blacks with regards to fatal police shootings. The hypothesis that Jesus created the universe in seven days and specially created humans in their current form is testable, and it has been falsified. The claim that American police exhibit a bias to fatally shoot unarmed people of African descent at a higher rate than they shoot Caucasians is likewise a testable hypothesis, and it has been found likewise wanting. If one wishes, we can talk about first world problems like generic humiliation of black people by the police, e.g. "driving while black." As someone who believes in the equal dignity of all men, these are things I don't approve of. Having been an older teenager with vaguely Eastern features during 9/11, I have personally experienced such humiliation. But these are first world problems, since a black person who is wrongly pulled over by the police suffers nothing more than a speeding ticket, and since an Indian who is subjected to unwarranted searches at airports in the year 2002 merely suffers unwanted groping. Such a thing is humiliating. It isn't deadly. We, as freethinking ex-Christians who (hopefully) reject authoritarian ideologies, should not waste our time even entertaining the notion of systemic racism in police shootings anymore than we should spend time debating creationists. The matter has been researched, and the proposed statistical effect turns out to not exist. If you believe in the BLM notion of systemic racism, you are subscribing to a religious ideology. As is your right. But I won't take it seriously or engage you in discussion on this topic, and I certainly won't "see your oppression," because I deny that you are being oppressed. If you want me to engage you as a fellow human being of equal standing I am eager to do so, and I don't care what your skin color is. I am "colorblind," so to speak. If you find this unacceptable then feel free to worship Jesus, and leave me out of it. Those who believe in systemic racism in police shootings should be treated as creation "scientists," and should be left preaching to an empty room.


    Proposition 2: The terms "colored people" and "people of color" are malicious obfuscations (don't take this personally @TruthSeeker0, this term is quite ubiquitous and I am not implying any guilt on your part). What is a person of color other than a non-European? If a PoC is indeed simply a non-European, then it groups together people who have nothing in common. I am an Indian. By the "non-European" definition of PoC, I am a PoC. So is a Mexican. I have nothing in common with a Mexican. Mexicans are Catholics. I am an idol-worshiper who detests Jesus of Nazareth. Mexicans eat meat. I don't eat meat. Mexicans drink Corona. I drink Kingfisher. I like Mexican culture and think it has many positive traits. But commonalities? I don't see any. So why are we both "people of color?" The answer, very obviously, is that it is a contrived interest group designed to create a coalition of non-Europeans who can engage in political battle against Europeans. With the death of George Floyd, the interest group has utterly fractured.  Every publicly-owned company under the sun has now given obeisance to Americans of African descent, and have been very deliberate in excluding so-called NBPoC (non-black people of color). Case in point: Uber Eats has begun illegal racial discrimination by offering free delivery from black-owned restaurants. Not PoC-owned restaurants. Only black-owned. Indian-owned restaurants must still charge delivery fees. Any pretense that the racialist movement consisted of a coalition of non-Europeans has now been abandoned.


    Aside: would humbly request that my fellow ex-C posters never refer to me as a "person of color." From an ethnic standpoint I have absolutely nothing in common with Mexicans, South Americans, Africans, Arabs, Chinese, Southeast Asians, or any ethnic group other than Indians. Feel free to refer to me as "the Indian poster" or "that Indian guy." If you wish to simply address me as "hey Indian," without even using my user name, I would find this acceptable too. I also respond to "idol-worshiper." But I am not a person of color, because I don't grant the premise that such a classification exists in any meaningful sense.


    Proposition 3: Admonitions to engage in discussions about race are inherently dishonest. Here I have to again reiterate that this is in no way a criticism of you, @TruthSeeker0, or any expression of animosity towards you. You merely happened to echo a very common sentiment about which I have many opinions, and I don't want you to interpret this post as a direct response to you personally. A lot of people - especially white liberals - are currently calling for "discussions about race or racism." But clearly, there is a fair number of implied constraints on such discussions. What if, in the course of such discussion, I wanted to explore the belief that people of African descent are less intelligent or more violent than non-Africans? (Note: I don't personally hold such beliefs, since the scientific arguments supporting them are spurious at best. The scientific case for African inferiority is about as vacuous as the case for creationism.) Or, what if I wanted to express my belief that I simply don't like the way Africans look, due to some personal aesthetic bias? Any honest person must admit that when they are calling for discussions about race, these topics are implicitly prohibited. So such people do not really want to have a discussion about race. Much like a Christian pastor, they want to engage in a discourse that results in some specific conclusion. Anyone who is honest about this should be calling for a sermon, not a "discussion." Again: as an ex-Christian I have heard enough sermons to last the remainder of my lifetime, and I will suffer not one more. I will not be participating in your discussion on race or racism.


    Have a good evening everyone. There is no hell, and Jesus is not a real god. Stay safe from the woke mob.

    I didn't read your post besides bits and peices - I've read enough to know we disagree on racial issues. Don't refer to people who disagree with you as dishonest - it adds nothing productive to the discussion. 

  7. 12 hours ago, Wertbag said:

    I would think we agree on more than we disagree about. Police reform is a great idea, abuse of power does occur and needs to be crushed, racist people exist, bias exists, black people suffer from higher levels of poverty and crime, drugs are bad, gangs are bad, racist groups like kkk and neo-nazis are evil, the cop who murdered Floyd deserves to be punished as the law says, problems exist and changes need to be made. 

    I don't think there is any real debate on all of these points, the disagreement seems to be what level racism is the cause of all the problems and what the solution should be. 


    Solutions such as defund or abolish the police/prisons seems a bad idea to me, while suggestions like compulsory body cameras cannot get funding. What solutions do you think would get the best results? 

    No, I'm pretty sure we would disagree on whether oppression of minorities exists today - you make it plain as day you think the issue is a handful of bad cops. You don't agree that systemic racism exists. I'm not getting involved in that debate. Maybe go watch 13th on Netflix. I stand by my position that white people do not have the right to claim that they know what the minority experience is or isn't. Just like men do not have the right to claim that they know what it is a woman does or does not experience. 

  8. On 6/17/2020 at 11:41 PM, Wertbag said:


    While the discussions at the UN are ongoing, the initial statement is the populist one.  Of course the UN has no power, the US pulled out of the human rights committee years ago and they've failed to do anything about the countries that still openly practice slavery.

    I'm still stunned by this strange idea that police brutality is supported, allowed or even encouraged.  The actions of the murderous cop have been condemned worldwide, by left and right alike.  The cop was arrested and charged with murder, that is the opposite of this activity being accepted by the system.

    "System" was the word used in the last sentence - your choice of wording is confusing. 

  9. 2 hours ago, Wertbag said:

    I'm not sure your reply was meant for me. My post did not include anything about the systems, bias, race or training, I purely pointed out that people are saying police violence is in some way okay and yet this flies in the face of worldwide condemnation of the murder. There is no one saying that was acceptable, no one saying he shouldn't be charged with murder and no one saying reforms aren't a great idea. 


    I would agree police training should be better. I just see that training costs money, so cries to defund the police will have the opposite effect that we should be aiming for. 


    It would be, and I don't believe I've ever said that? I believe bias comes from fear, from what we are taught and from what we experience. I don't think it's something that can be changed because it is human instinct. The way to make people less scared is to remove the issue causing the fear. The fear against black people is based on valid culture and crime statistics. You can't ask people to not fear a valid threat. BLM says the whites are racist for being afraid while not pointing to the cause of the fear.


    It is not just other groups, as you can see there isn't the same fear to Asian or Indian people but there is the same fear to white gang members, skin heads, punks and those who are a clear threat. 

    I would cross the road to avoid a gang member regardless of their skin colour, but if they were black my self preservation would be categorised as racist. 


    Racism is saying this group is superior while that group is inferior, and in most of the cases we are looking at that isn't the case. The cop who murdered Floyd was a violent sociopath with 18 prior complaints against him. His violence wasn't restricted by race, he was an a-hole to everyone. He would smack a white hobo as quickly as a black one. Definitely power tripping, definitely a major gap that he wasn't fired earlier, definitely an issue the other cops didn't feel able to override a superior officers bad actions. So lots of problems and lots of areas to reform, but racism wasn't the cause in this case, but in the Abbury case it certainly was. 

    You can have your opinions and I'll have mine, we can agree to disagree. 

  10. 23 hours ago, Wertbag said:


    While the discussions at the UN are ongoing, the initial statement is the populist one.  Of course the UN has no power, the US pulled out of the human rights committee years ago and they've failed to do anything about the countries that still openly practice slavery.

    I'm still stunned by this strange idea that police brutality is supported, allowed or even encouraged.  The actions of the murderous cop have been condemned worldwide, by left and right alike.  The cop was arrested and charged with murder, that is the opposite of this activity being accepted by the system.

    This betrays an ignorance of policing culture and police training.  Which is the ROOT of this problem - that combined with racial bias. And I don't think you understand fully the definition of systemic - which is structure that results in issues due to the way it's structured, not a structure that accepts or doesn't accept violations after they've occurred. 


    To act as if none of us have racial bias, as if racism is only hate, that it can't be unconscious, is ignorant. 


    I'm a white daughter of parents who instilled in me a fear of black men. It's conditioning. You don't get rid of racial bias just like that, not when you're socially programmed into it. To walk around and claim that human beings don't identify with in their group and that they easily vilify out groups, and that race doesn't play a part in that, in everyday actions, is just stupid. 


    Personally I do not understand people's claims that they're not racist. It betrays a misunderstanding of the human condition - that we are group oriented, prefer our in group, and easily dehumanize out groups, and unless we make a calculated conscious decision to engage and get to know out groups, we will fear them. Unfortunately that fear can be deadly when you have a firearm in your hands. 


    And as you pointed out, sometimes it's dominance and malice and outright murder instead of fear. 


    The in group identification and out group vilification is something that Trump is using, encouraging, and capitalizing on. If there's someone who deserves to lose their current position due to the way they've pitted Americans of one political party, race, creed or non creed against each other, it's DJ Trump. 


  11. Re family and friends that are black or coloured, I was asking about present day as it's relevant. How many people have discussed racial issues with current colored or black friends and family and how have the discussions gone? 


    My two good friends are married to men from Togo and between them they have biracial kids. They've lived in Europe and Canada, and there's been good and bad experiences in both places. I'm only close with one of them now but I hear her heartache. Her worry for her kids. Her long road to understanding why the childhood her kids are having is in some ways different from the one she had. Her determination to prepare her kids in some ways for what to her and her husband feels inevitable. 


    Open your ears. Listen to your neighbors, your coworkers, everyone. 


    Dear readers who have read this far, ask yourselves, which is more important to you: to be right about your claims, or to listen with the goal of improving this place for us all? 

  12. 2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

    In my mother's case, particularly, self-blame is another form of manipulation and control.  Torturing herself over my apostasy is intended to inflict guilt upon me.  This not only feeds her own religious addiction; but also, obviously, is her way of attempting to coerce me back into the fold.  It may be their battle; but that doesn't mean they will fight fair.

    This is an important point I hadn't thought of. My godmother is like this - getting weepy and then preachy by turns. Now I definitely feel less guilt for putting a lot of distance between us. 

  13. No it's not your fault. It's not your fault if your mom goes into a depression. I have several family members in the church that suffer from depression and it's my opinion that their strict religious beliefs are exactly what keep them there. I myself suffer from depression periodically but guess what, it improved radically after I left religion. It spirals downwards when I get too involved with my religious family. I do not need their approval. Their approval isn't a reflection of my value. These resources helped me regain my confidence, self worth, and self compassion as well as to trust myself. 

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  14. Asking out of curiosity: how many of the posters here have black or coloured people among their close circle of friends? (Not coworkers etc- people that you would disclose personal issues/problems with) How many of you that do have friends, have had discussions about race or racism? What kind of discussions were they? 

  15. 7 hours ago, wombat17 said:

    Thankyou so much! I have looked at the testimonals and they are awesome! I have thought about it and I am just really worried my parents will take it personally. That they will have done something wrong in raising me and that it's their fault for my unbelief. My parents at my 20th birthday said that the most important thing to them was that I was a christian. I am afraid once I lose this tag they wont look at me the same. 😕 

    Why should they continue to look at you the same? That's kind of messed up... You're an adult with your own thoughts and beliefs. You aren't responsible for their emotions. Read that again: you aren't responsible for how other people respond to you. Unless you are being deliberately hurtful and hateful to people. Being honest isn't that. Christianity feeds unhealthy relationships and improper boundaries in some ways in particular between parent and child. These two books helped me immensely in recovery. 


    Marlene has a website and support groups 


    Also this book https://www.amazon.ca/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703


    Here's how I came out to my parents. A letter was much less difficult than face to face 



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  16. This is an interesting conversation thread, in which some people have indicated willingness to listen to the racialized experience of people and learn from them about what they can do on an individual level. Whereas others are more interested in actually claiming truth and knowledge about how whole systems work, and therefore, how minorities and even women are treated in those systems. 


    Which kind of goes back to my point: white people do not hold the personal experience of black people. They cannot claim to know what black people experience, individually, or in systems. They can extrapolate all they want and try to present themselves as the experts but in the end, they aren't black people. 


    When you make claims that systemic issues do not exist in society you essentially make the claim that humans aren't tribal. Which is a laugh, if you consider human evolution. Our tribal tendencies haven't gone anywhere and they affect our behavior. 


    That's my observation on reading this thread. I'm not going to engage further as a respectfully disagree with the positions some are taking and am not interested in further debate. I'm posting so that readers can see a variety of perspective, not only the positions that have been presented. 

  17. 13 hours ago, Joshpantera said:


    Yes, and I would readily attribute that to the overall system. And point out that the system itself isn't stacked against women, any more than it's stacked against black citizens when you look at it closely. The subjective opinions tend to rely on looking from a ways off. Generalizing everything tremendously. Broad brushing as wide as possible. And turning what appears to be a blind eye to contrary numbers, stats, and information in general. 


    I mentioned going through a ton of black speakers who disagree with the bandwagon fallacy going around about systemic racism. Morgan Freeman has some interesting commentary of his own on the matter. And so does Denzel Washington. It was a facebook video so I'm not sure where it is or where to find it.


    But another interesting rebuttal popped up, which is a critique of the viral video about systemic racism that you cited earlier. I had my own concerns about it. Here's another detailed analysis of each claim made in the video for further consideration: 




    So, just to try and fine tune our communication better, I am not saying to you that being well spoken is WHY they are correct. What I am saying is that they are correct with respect to the merit of their position taking, based on the objective, rather than subjective opinion view.


    They are contrasting an objective fact based position on an issue versus a clearly subjective opinion based view, which, doesn't have the same merit when investigated for content. I stand along side Rubin, Elder, Freeman, Washington, Owens, and many, many more people from all sides of the racial isle on this issue. And I'm saying that they are well spoken and intelligent about it, which has brought them accusations of being too white, basically. The name calling further degrades the issue. And makes it appear as though well spoken, well thought out intelligence is being frowned upon, rather than respected as such whether someone agrees or disagrees with the well spoken and intelligent approach. Their approaches are objective rather than just emotional. 


    I love Dave's handle about being an independent skeptic. Rather than GOP, or DNC or libertarian party, I would more rightfully fit in as an independent skeptic in politics. I could vote any three of the above directions, dependent on the positions and concerns. I would not strictly vote or side on an purely partisan basis. It sounds like you and I share that in common too, even to the extent that we have a sharp disagreement on this issue for some reason. We share similar in view in terms of being non-partisan, but we're both obviously thinking in different ways and not always understanding one another at the same time. I'm trying, though. 



    So you're saying that those people who claim systemic racism exists, are bandwagoning, using a subjective, overly emotional approach? 

  18. 2 hours ago, webmdave said:


    I didn't think you were suggesting any such thing. My post also was sarcasm. What I was trying to illustrate is that if as you seem to be saying, namely that white people don't have a clue about this issue, then both white allies and white detractors are equally ignorant and clueless. Therefore, regardless of where a white person stands on any of this, the white perspective is that of just another armchair critic. 


    Just a thought...

    The sarcasm is hard to read for me, I tend to take written words literally and when I use it myself, sign off with /end sarcasm. Just saying. 


    My point was not to say white people are clueless - it was that we honestly cannot speak to personal experience for black people. I think we need to listen to where they are coming from and assist as advocates against racism. 

  19. 1 hour ago, webmdave said:


    I am also white and completely agree with you. I would say the vast majority of the white people expressing dogmatic opinions regarding the life experiences of black people are speaking out of a deep well of ignorance, hearsay, well-intentioned interpretation of available facts or other reasons.


    Yet, a large number of white people are protesting. If white people are incapable of drawing "conclusions concerning the lived experiences of black people," are you suggesting all white people should put down their signs and remove themsleves from the discussion, since they haven't really a clue? 

    As RNP stated, people can have degrees of empathy. Some more, some less. Some may have suffered discrimination of another sort and empathizing is a little easier. 


    The only way we can move forward is by involving and educating white people - specifically those who are racist. White allies are important, so I'm not suggesting any such thing, but in the end it's the racists who must educate themselves and change their behavior. 


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