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About white_raven23

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    Hold Still! Bug on your face, right...THERE!
  • Birthday 11/05/1976

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    Reading, Movies, Swing Dancing, Amassing Knowledge on various topics of personal interest.
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    I check in here every now and again.

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  • Still have any Gods? If so, who or what?
    Good chocolate

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  1. Wrote a holiday story...check it out in the Creative Works forum

  2. Welcome! Welcome! Pascal's Wager was mentioned.... Here is an excellent site with very good resources about the god-man ~ http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/central.html
  3. I was going to mention that. A little vinegar in milk and you can fake it just fine.
  4. The idea of hell perverts they purpose of punishment. People tend to think of punishment as being primarily geared towards the misdeed, but the purpose of punishment in general has less to do with chastising someone for what they did as it is for making sure they are deterred from doing it again. It is to ensure correct behavior in the future. So what then, of hell? There IS no "future" in hell. There is no early release for good behavior. There is no future behavior to enforce and correct. So that means eternal chastisement merely for the sake of the chastisement itself. Unproductive. Non-developmental. Human prisons at least, produce license plates and help keep roadsides clean. So does that make human punishment more "evolved" than god's? Looks like it to me.
  5. Hey Raven, I just have to say I love to read your posts! You are a wise woman and really have a way with words!

  6. http://www.exchristian.net/testimonies/200...of-lifetime.php For those who thought I’d never submitted an Ex-imony….I did. Some time before I became a member of the Forums here in fact. I was re-reading it the other day, and while some things have changed, such as my preference for abandoning labels entirely, much is still valid. But that’s not why I’m writing today. Today, I remember Carlos. I talked roughly about how he died in the link. It’s been 14 years….high time I told someone, anyone about how he lived. We met in 7th grade. I was 2 years into public school, feeling jaded and quite roughed over from my exit from private school 2 years prior, and fully expecting more of the same. He was just the kid sitting next to me. It was English class, the teacher asked us to write a short description of ourselves, exchange with the person beside us, and read their description out loud. His description wasn’t remarkable in any way…except that it was printed. I hadn’t seen someone write a whole paragraph in print in I don’t know how long. Most longhand I’d seen was all in cursive. It nagged at me. Finally, when the teacher wasn’t looking, I passed him a note asking him about it. He wrote back that it was just a preference. This somehow started a back and forth conversation that was interesting and involved…and we forgot about the teacher's location. Next thing we know, she’s standing by Carlos’s desk and says “Give it to me.” Indicating the piece of paper we’d been corresponding on. Carlos wadded up the full sheet of letter size paper, and he ATE it. Both the teacher and I were positively stunned as we watched him chew chew chew chew chew and finally swallow. I thought “We are so screwed.” But the teacher just looked….deflated. Confused. And she walked away from us without another word. She let us pass notes in class. We kept up with the work just fine, and she must not have wanted Carlos swallowing too much paper and ink, considering it an unnecessary risk considering how far Carlos was willing to go to defy her authority. And as neither of us went beyond that, she was wise enough not to escalate it either as it was noted that the other students thought he was nuts and were not of a mindset to emulate him. And so Carlos became my friend. He always had a different viewpoint for things that was always interesting to listen to. We shared books, he got me turned on to Stephen King when he loaned me “IT”, and it was a story about kids who were rather like Carlos and I. I could relate strongly at that point to The Loser’s Club described within its pages. He helped draw me out of the highly defensive shell I’d created to become “invisible” to other kids. Now….other kids just became irrelevant. Carlos had an awesome black t-shirt with green skeletal bone structure on it. I finally got brave enough to start wearing the dragon t-shirt I’d picked up in Hong Kong. Still being subject to the will-O-theparents, I couldn’t buy bony shirts, but I could get away with black, red, and silver. It was 1989, and we were essentially pre-goth “Goths”. There probably were others like us in other schools, but at our Jr High…we were IT. We just didn’t fit in with any of the other groups. Skaters were a big group then, so were the Preps, and then there were the Stoners (who we alllmost dressed like, but not quite), and of course, lastly, the Nerds who would occasionally enjoy our friendship, but considered us too “Out There” even for them. We had a rep for being kind of dangerous somehow (we weren’t, we were just different), and while you might admire the Cobra at the zoo, you didn’t invite it to become a member of the Chess Club. In other classes, Carlos would sit behind me and color the bottom three inches of my hair with markers while the teachers were talking. He’d come over to my house for dinner, and we would try to encourage it to snow by calling out to the “Snow Gods” and sacrificing a light bulb into the garbage can (broke it with a small shovel). Goofy? Sure. But goofiness is part and parcel to the ties that bind. In 8th Grade, Carlos invented “Muffy”. He’d found the remains of a cat, and boiled the bones several times. He’d bring Muffy to school occasionally, (no not every day) in a clear plastic thermos. He wrote Muffy on the side, and so….that was Muffy. We’d take Muffy’s bones out in Study hall, and try to figure out which body part the bones were. Some were obvious, like the skull, but the leg bones? Was that the right front forleg or the rear? To us it was an awesome puzzle. Much better than the crappy ones they had for us in Study Hall, for those of us who never needed to study. Nowadays, teachers would likely have a shit fit if a student brought the bones of a dead cat to school. They would try to intervene in some way. But back then? I think teachers saw a certain level of peer pressure as a positive thing (remember this was WAY pre-Columbine!) and figured kids like Carlos and I would “normalize” as a result of our peer’s disapproval. Well, to our minds, we were peerless. How could those cretins who could barely spell their own names be OUR peers? And there was disagreement regarding Muffy among the rest of the kid’s at school. Carlos wasn’t showing it to everyone. You had to ask to see Muffy, and even then, usually he’s just open the thermos to show them. It’s hard to give someone shit over something you had to ask to see in the first place. Every year we’d do the Walk For Hope together. 21 miles. And we’d be horribly sore at the end. We were brothers. Carlos and I. And yeah….my being a girl did make that a mess of sorts by the time we were Seniors, because that’s how I saw us. As for Carlos? Can never quite be sure. For my birthdays he would give me wonderful gifts. He never liked any of my boyfriends….but then in the note he left behind he wrote that he feared he might be gay. So it’s hard to say. Was he confused and pining wanting more from me than I was able to give? Or was he just very sweet and giving, and firmly in the closet? Can’t ever really know. He used to do impressions. He couldn’t do voices, but his physicality was dead on enough to make you cry laughing. He once gave me a birthday present wrapped in the Sunday comics and taped with bandaids. To this day…coolest wrapping ever. I never made it through lunch without having my beverage come out my nose (from laughing) around Carlos. I eventually had to give up on bringing a drink to school. Often we would hang with another friend of mine who was both excessively admired and ostracized for being chesty. We would spend time trying to toss pennies down the front of her shirt. April Fool’s day fell on a Wednesday once after I’d invited him to youth group. After considerable discussion (aka plotting and planning), Carlos re-boiled Muffy several times and baked the bones into the most decadent chocolate cake ever. Once the other youth group members realized what the “secret ingredient” was they would not touch it, except for ONE of them who was cool enough to just suck the chocolate off the bones right along with us. Shame for the rest of them, Carlos had impressive cooking skills for a 16 year old. One of my birthdays was celebrated by going roller skating. Carlos and I had about the same skills on roller skates with the predictable result of his sprawling in front of me, and me getting a scraped chin tangling up with him and using my face as a brake. To this day, I cannot laugh to the point of losing my breath without thinking of Carlos, because around him, laughing my air out was a regular occurrence. That was Carlos. I’ve tried to figure out why he ended the way he did so many times I could wear you out trying to guess. In essence, I think he just burned the candle at both ends. The life he led was loud with raw personality. I wish more could have known him, but those who did, all remember him as something special.
  7. Thank Zod for my Ipod Shuffle. If not for this little baby, I think I’d have to kill all my co-workers. A couple years ago, management established an “open office environment” policy. What does this mean? It means all the cubicle walls were taken down. We don’t even have the illusion of privacy any longer. And absolutely NO sound buffering at all. Some visual buffering would be nice….not everyone really needs to watch me blow my nose. I know I really could be spared the viewing pleasure, so I’m pretty sure others really don’t want to see it either. When I’m trying to work out figures or something, and someone else gets some retarded dancing hippo e-mail, they have this annoying need to share it with everyone. Do they simply forward the e-mail on so we can each choose when we want to enjoy it? No. They must verbally summon everyone within earshot over to their computer screen and have everyone huddle around it like a bunch of socially needy meekrats. Meekrats with hyena laughs. Fucking loud ass bastards. Some of us are actually trying to work here. And then there are the insecure twits. I will be the first to admit that I personally am not the most social person. This is not a problem for me, so why should it be a source of anxiety for others? Shouldn't be a problem. Yet it is. These insecure people feel a need to inform me of their every damn movement. If they need to leave their desk, I don’t need an all points bulletin of exactly where they are going or what they will be doing. No one is a floor supervisor, and no one answers anyone else’s phone, so the information is utterly meaningless. I don’t need to know and I really don’t give a crap. But they need to talk. They need the interaction. I don’t need my ears stroked or cuddly comforting that “everything is fine” regarding doing things that pertain to my work. If I need to go do something away from my desk…I go do it. Nobody needs details. One of these people, SUPER insecure….is overly excited about our both being in new romantic relationships. Somehow….she thinks this means we have “common ground” and we can and should converse about it. First off….there is no “common ground” between us. Our purposes for communication in general to begin with are completely different. She needs social assurance and reinforcement. I occasionally want to share things I find ironic, funny, or odd with other people to see if they have the same reaction as when I first heard something. I’m occasionally curious about others, she wants assessment for normalcy (so she can change to fit!). It would certainly explain some of the dumb shit she asks. She actually asked me how often my new love interest and I talk to each other. WTF? Who cares! My relationship is only of deep interest to me. And while I will say I’m happy she has a new relationship as well, I have no interest or need to analyze and examine her experience to bits. I don’t want to socialize. Which brings me back to the pleasure of my Ipod Shuffle. I can tune most crap out. I can still hear…but at least it’s now properly background noise and I can tune in or out as need be. I’m not the only one who has resorted to the Shuffle self-defense either. Another co-worker (one who understands) confided in me that sometimes, her Shuffle isn’t even playing anything. But the little earphones are indispensable as a subtle form of “do not disturb”. Your yakkin’ ass co-workers are less inclined to engage you in random conversation if they don’t think you can hear them. Without it, you are prey for the roaming yakkers. Those co-workers who just need eye-contact to stand in your space wasting a good ten minutes of your time jabbering. Speaking of my space….just because the cubicle walls aren’t there, doesn’t mean I like it when I’m working at my computer, only to get that “feeling” on the back of my neck. I turn my chair around and find someone in my workspace. Worse…when someone is staring at my computer screen over my shoulder! Dumbfuck! Go away! If you are physically close enough to be looking over my shoulder like that, you are in my intimate space! If you are close enough to kiss, and you aren’t cleared for that activity…you are invading my space! Why are you looking at my screen anyway? You are the reason I’ve altered my Windows XP taskbar to only become visible when my pointer is hovering at the bottom of my screen! You don’t need to know how many programs I have running, or all the windows I have open! Especially my internet usage! So I goof off during the day! So do you! I’m not coming up behind you to curiously ask about the details of the websites you are visiting while you are on the clock! A manager might overhear you. Loud ass! Have some courtesy and discretion and act as though you don’t see the website, and I’ll be sure to extend the same omission when you are clothes shopping on Yahoo!! Piss off! And die!
  8. Now, I will be the first to admit that I haven't seen The Nativity Story yet. But I did see The Passion once it was available to rent (I will wait for the same for The Nativity Story). And my memory isn't ready for the dustbin yet. One thing I do pay some attention to, is movie reviews and Tops at the box office. People were lined up around the block to see The Passion in 2004 ....while Nativity now in 2006 couldn't even match tap dancing penguins. I listen for the far Right to start raving and insisting their very young children see the Nativity, as they did The Passion, despite the level of violence.....and I hear crickets instead. Although that's not quite accurate, as has been mentioned in a Thread in the News section.....what we do hear are complaints of 'historical' inaccuracy about things depicted in the movie that don't conform exactly to Catholic tastes. Sooooo. Movie depicting the birth of a baby of mysterious source accepted by loving parents? Thumbs down. Movie depicting the absolute physical thrashing and torture of the resulting adult later in life? Five star movie! Take your kids! Take your neighbors! Take your neighbor's kids! It's the movie EVERYONE should see! I think anyone who goes on about "christian love" needs to shut the fuck up. I don't see much expression of "love" happening in your entertainment preferences. If anything....your tastes in entertainment are comparable to those of the ancient romans who you thought were barbaric for subjecting your forebearers to the accepted capital punishment of the time, because they rioted and interfered in the rites and sacred days of other religions. Yeah....that's right...your beloved "martyrs" were intolerant terrorists. You claim loudly to be against violent movies because you think they create violent kids, but figure kids watching violence is okay when it's JESUS getting his skin whipped off? But a movie depicting the trials and tribulations of a young pregnant woman struggling through the conventions of the time to give BIRTH to your touted savior? Not worth bothering to see because you already know the story? You already knew Jesus got thrashed, so you already knew that story too....but you all rushed to see the blood flow and the skin rip on the Big Screen. I can't think of better proof that whatever Jesus may or may not have done in life (if he even existed) doesn't matter one bit to any single one of you blood lusting vultures. All that you can see was his manner of death. So go on wearing your jeweled execution devices around your necks and hammered all over the outsides and insides of your buildings where you talk about how everything should be according to your worldview. Go on and pretend that you are celebrating the birth of your savior when you buy that new game console for your kid this year. Fuck you and the hypocracy you rode in on.
  9. Well, my parents know where I stand regarding dogma. My dad accepts it without question, my mom has a harder time. We discuss religion on occasion when I visit, and I often talk to them about things going on in Ex-C forums (nothing of a private nature of course). Things have gone well. I went on a trip with them a month ago, to visit family. Much of the family is liberally religious to zealously religious. Just depends on who we are around. Now, I don’t get into it with my extended family. I see them so rarely, it’s a subject I work to avoid, although I’d say various family members have their suspicions. But no matter. This is about my mother finding the line. The one you don’t cross. We were visiting Granny (mom’s mom) and her boyfriend. Her boyfriend is the type who insists on prayer at each meal, particularly in public. Now, my parents have a long tradition of saying grace over food at home. I will even bow my head and mutter an ‘Amen’ purely out of respect for my father and all our togetherness at the table. That is something I treasure, and belief doesn’t factor in at all. But I don’t owe my granny’s boyfriend that level of respect. So the family was there in a public restaurant, all of us holding hands, hostages to courtesy, while the boyfriend praised “precious baby jesus” for the food he wasn’t even going to be paying for. Obviously, Mom peeked at me during the praying (or the following wouldn’t have happened). She had realized that while I was quiet and my head was bowed slightly, my eyes were open and I was just zoning out into space. She knew I wasn’t praying. She jiggled my hand (she was holding it), and I looked at her. “Please…” She whispered. And I realized she was asking me to actually pray. BAM!!! She found the LINE. I didn’t say a word. All I had to do was look at her with all the rage I could muster silently. I let icy indignation course down my arm into our clasped hands (no, I didn’t squeeze). And she knew. Abruptly, she looked back down at the table. The prayer finally ended, we ate, and my mother never uttered one single word to me about the incident. Because she knew she’d crossed the line. For courtesy’s sake, I will hold hands and bow my head. For courtesy and respect for my Granny I will silently endure her useless boyfriend. But no one. And I mean NO one, not even my own mother has ever had the right to tell me what should be going on in my head. Not even when I was financially and legally subject to the will of my parents was my mind anyone’s subject. To be honest, it probably surprised her a little that there was a line to cross. I think people assume that non-religious people have no personal limits simply because those limits are not dictated by a tangible “rule book”, and so therefore we cannot be offended. Another factor to that idea is that free-thinkers seem to be less offended (or have less black and white viewpoints) by the things that markedly offend religious people. So the impression we give is that since abortion, gays, and premarital sex do not offend us, then nothing offends us at all. But since religion is a way of life for religious people, they cannot comprehend our indignation when they push or insist that we participate in their way of life. They immediately misconstrue our outrage, and imagine our anger is a projection of wrongs done to us by religion in the past as opposed to the social wrong being committed by themselves at that moment. They really cannot comprehend that endorsing and encouraging their “life” to others, is offensive to people who happen to have their own “lives” because the christian is disregarding the value of the other person’s “life” in the process. *and as a side note, I hate it that the Word program treats lower-case “c” as a misspelling when it’s fronting –hristian.*
  10. Dear Right Wing Conservative Christians, Hope the family is doing well. No, not your church family, I mean your own family. I hope your finances are doing okay, and that your youngest shines like a cute little star in the next school performance. I wish you personally the best. But that is not the purpose of this letter. I'm really writing to tell you that you are on notice. All of you. Every last one. We have had enough. To be honest, we've been weary of you for quite some time. But we really thought that a position of polite tolerance was the decent thing to do in dealing with you. Taking the 'High Road' if you will. We figured that we could simply ignore you. When you barked at us that evolution was crap and that single motherhood was the road to hell, we did as the book you claim to live by suggested. We 'turned the other cheek' and continued to just do our own thing. We originally chose to be indifferent to you. We heard your rantings, and adopted a policy of apathy. And we did expect that you would have the courtesy to do the same for us. Alas, you have not done so. Now, instead of forcing your views directly at us, you are hungrily going for the jugular of the next generation and...well, damn near EVERYBODY. Pushing Intelligent Design into the classrooms, filling as many State Fair booths as you can with faith based pamphlets to distribute to kids and teens (particularly if parents are nowhere in sight), waging 'war' against homosexuality and abortion, and of course you've had the ear of our Commander in Cheese for the past term and a half. You've been happily doing your "thing" for some time now. We've been pretty silent in the past, and so you have expected that silence to continue. Thing is, we really haven't been as silent as you think. We've been muttering the whole time, it's just now getting loud enough for you to hear it over your hymns. With the recent election, I think we've finally gotten your attention. You are looking around, and seeing more and more people disagreeing with your doctrine. Abortion is being protected. ID is not making it into public schools as fluidly as you anticipated. And horror of horrors, gay people are being allowed to marry! Where did you go wrong? Well, remember that whole "seperation of church and state" thing in the Constitution? You've been working to close the gap on that "seperation" but you forgot to change the educational curriculum to reflect your disdain for the efforts of the founding fathers. When you've got teachers expounding on the importance of the Constitution, and a President who talks about the Constitution as being "just a goddamned piece of paper"....that's blatant enough to make the most politically apathetic teenager put down their gameboy and take notice. And at no time did you ever consider the idea that the "seperation" was for your own protection. By being seperate from the secular world of politics and parties, you had a safe haven that was critically examined by only a very few. But now that you have closed the gap between church and state, something you did not anticipate has begun to happen. The perceived failures of the State have been rubbing off on you. As the actions and behaviors of the State have been under scrutiny, so too have your own. Not just by the few, but by a lot of people. The hypocrisy of christians is no longer viewed as a local phenomenon (just seems to happen a little in the church you go to...but not at other churches) but as standard operating procedure for christians across the country. And pedophile priests and ministers are no longer the punchline of a joke, but a reality you read about at least once a week. We've been cleaning out your closet for you, and shining bright lights into all the corners. And when we find stuff, instead of carefully nudging it under the rug, we put it where everyone can see it. And one thing of particular note that people are starting to notice, you guys can't keep the closet clean. We're always finding something else... Everyone is looking at the man behind the curtain. And more people are deciding that he wasn't who they were taught he was, or that he didn't even exist. So this is your notice. We are watching you. And your doublespeak explanations aren't going to work on us the same way they work on your fellow happily blind sheep. Nor can you dazzle us into silence with a single bible verse, because not only do we KNOW that verse, we know the verses on either side. We know that the bible chapter context is wholly different from the one you are trying to convey. See, we kinda figured that since you tried to lie about who you slept with or the money you stole, that you were possibly lying about your book too. So we read it ourselves. And that's given us a whole new insight on not only how much you lie to us now, but how much you've lied in the past. And thanks to the internet, there really IS a permanent record of the behaviors of public figures! Scandals don't just quietly fade from memory anymore. So you are on notice. You can either try to clean up your act (haven't been too successful though...have you?), or take a careful step back from the secular arena. Remain apart. Not that your dogma won't still go under eventually, it just won't sink as fast as the Titanic administrations it likes to attach itself to.
  11. Welcome!!! Another life-long Alaskan here! More Alaskans on Ex-C!!!!
  12. aginghipster, Abandoning religion (man-made) and abandoning the idea of a supreme being are NOT the same thing. You will find all types here. Welcome to the forum. Rest, Heal, and be at Peace.
  13. Well Scott? Looks like others agree with me. Guess I know what I'm talking about after all. I didn't get that Psych degree by looking pretty and keeping quiet. Be quiet. Pshhhh! Paul was a misogynist prick. Hope you like spineless helpless doormat damsels Scott. Because that's what you will attract by emulating Paul.
  14. I will not be quiet. And if I didn't know what I was talking about, I wouldn't have bothered posting in the first place. Oh? You're not a Christian now? Or are these posts by 'Scott' just a hallucination? So? That's not hard......take my prior post, shed the idea that it's all about YOU, and generalize a bit. The purpose is not to 'win' the debate. The purpose is for the audience (the lurkers) to decide which side of the debate makes the strongest argument (in their own opinion). The debate is nothing without the audience. Without the audience, you've just got pointless bickering.
  15. Spare me your pessamistic hopelessness. The debating isn't intended for YOU anyway. See.....people get on the internet, and they browse around about things they are curious about. The find a place called Ex-Christian.Net. They are curious. So they read a few articles. Lots of stuff makes sense. A lot of the questions they have asked within their own church that were insufficently answered or just glossed over with Jesus- sugar come back to mind. They start studying for themselves, and they start lurking in the debate forums. You don't have to be a member to view it. And there is where YOU come in. You come in here serving up more Jesus-sugar, and completely fail to answer a straight question with either logic, or common sense. You just parrot the bible because in your fevered brain it has all the answers. But only to a person who has learned not to ask questions. The lurker sees how you evade questions like a greased politician. You don't look clever, or knowing, or wise. You just look like a cheap car salesman. The lurker realizes that life CAN continue without religion. Some may go as far as atheism, other's may go for a more unorganized belief system. Either way, they have freed their mind, and YOU have helped them do it, though not your intent. So....thank you for being a bible-parrot. You do more for the cause of mental freedom than you could ever imagine. And you thought we were debating you in order to open your mind. Silly rabbit.
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