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ogilvy

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About ogilvy

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    Australia
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    its been one year since i left my church. after a few rocky months, i seem to be happily adjusted to my lack of christian faith. nobody hassles me about it. my life is better now. the best part is not worrying about hell.

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  • Still have any Gods? If so, who or what?
    dunno
  1. That (OP) is close to my experience. I never got to experience any of those supernatural things no matter how much I tried to. It was disappointing at the time, as I thought they were what was meant to happen and it felt like I was missing out. I came to think people were faking it or just copying each other but then with the Toronto Blessing I saw people I didn't think were faking it. But then I thought it was 'of Satan' and was glad I hadn't experienced it myself. Now I think it might be a part of the brain that gets triggered and some people are more susceptible because their brains are differently 'wired'. There's some interesting research I can't do justice to but to do with left and right brain and how an illusion can be induced that there's another presence.
  2. I haven't posted for a few months, but that's because I'm so well settled into my ex christianity that I came to FORGET all about it. ie. it wasn't making me continually upset any more. It hasn't been on my mind at all. That must be good, right? Strangely, even though the security my Christian beliefs gave me, for this life and the next, was what I thought I would miss most, I feel more secure without it these days. I don't know how that's happened. I dont have any reason to feel secure, rationally, but somehow I do, and I feel content. Its good also to be able to enjoy simple and harmless things that would have, in the old Christian days, have been considered not really right, because not 'godly' in purpose. Aaah, so much is pleasant and enjoyable these days. And like someone else mentioned, its quite fun to be able to swear. I like it! pippa
  3. Yes they are moderated, and they have 2 resident OCD experts who answer anyone's questions. One, I think, is Dr Claiburn, and the other is, I think, Michael Jensen. Members are not encouraged to seek or give reassurance. They are encouraged to do exposure, and not to carry on compulsive behaviour. One of the doctors has written some workbooks, and will also email info.
  4. Welcome to the group from me, too, Ameen. It seems like you do a lot to help and encourage a lot of people. I like the way you are so friendly and full of interesting stories and ideas. I will check out some of those links. Do you have anything to do with the Yahoo OCD groups? I had Scrupulosity too. Like a recovering alcoholic who must avoid even one drink, I have to avoid hell-preaching religion these days. Those writers you mentioned actually helped me recover from OCD by giving me a completely new perspective on it. As soon as I read them, I began to recover. Their ideas hit home with me. Amazing. Yes there is a lot that people can really help each other with, especially online, where you can be anonymous. I think the thing about (straight) people obsessing about being gay is due to that its something they would not like to be, because of the social stigma, or the hard time they might have with family and friends, if they found they were, indeed, gay, or because of the fear of going to hell because of it. Because they dont want to be that, they fear in case they are, and constantly check for any signs of it. Similarly some people fear cancer as the worst thing that could happen to them, and constantly worry and check to see if there are any signs of it. Others think pedophilia would be the worst thing, and therefore worry in case they are. The worry gets in the way of being able to think clearly enough to know if they really do have the symptons or not. Learning to live with uncertainty, IMO, is the key to overcoming it. However, it is very very hard to live with the uncertainty about being destined for hell. Even so, it IS possible, but it might necessitate deconverting
  5. I can identify with having a 'mess of feelings', and with still finding the name of God/Jesus stands for something sacred ( cringe when someone attaches the F word to it), but my experience is also different, because i chose to join the mennonite church at one stage, whereas i guess you were born into it. and i was free to leave at any time with no condenmation. I did leave because the idea that we are only forgiven up to the last 'confessed sin', scared me too much. I used to like the mennonite singing, used to listen to tapes of it. there was one called 'precious memories' i loved very much. Regarding peace, i have to admit that i also, didnt find it. Its hard to find peace when you have ODC. the amish mennonite church attitudes can foster OCD, i think. But since i became a christian 20 yrs ago, i did experience the feeling that God was with me, guiding me, and helping me with small and large matters in my everyday life. I have to admit also, that now that thats over, i have come to have peace of mind in what seems like a better way. its hard to explain. i think its because when i was a christian, i had to TRY to feel all the things a Christian is meant to feel, love of God, love of praying, etc. it didnt come naturally, and that feeling of having to try to feel something i didnt was not a pleasant feeling. now i dont have to feel or think anything in particular. its great! For some reasonl, i dont know what, since losing the comfort i used to have in believing God would not let anything too bad happen to me, i've come to have comfort in everyday things, like my dog! my dog is so solid and dependable, warm and affectionate, and silly looking, she makes my heart melt, and makes me feel there could not be too much threatening in the world to me, things must really be ok! Ok i didnt say it was rational! and other simple familiar things like the sun coming in my bedroom window in the afternoon for some reason make me feel good and peaceful. anyway, i 've stopped missing my faith so much lately and found that life goes on, nothing too drastic has happened, there is still hope...
  6. Rob are you saying that the bible verses referring to hell, or eternal punishment were inserted later by the 'priestly class'. you mean like the book of revelation wasnt written by John, a disciple of Jesus? or it was changed later? That John didnt write it from the island of Patmos, that he wrote it for gain or for power? And the other gospels where the punishment after death is mentioned by Jesus, are you saying those books were not really written by disciples and followers of Jesus, or the hell verses added later by priests? Was John not really a close confidant of Jesus, writing to explain to people how he sincerely believed they could have eternal life and avoid eternal punishment? Are you saying the writers of these bible books weren't matthew, john etc? or were, but were making it all up for gain or power? or that there words were changed later by a priestly class, at the time of Constantine. Are you saying the original bible was different from the bible of the time of Constantine? Thanks
  7. Some pills might not be a bad idea at this time. I know exactly what you mean, as fear of hell dominated a lot of my life. At the age of 14 it took the joy of life away when i committed the 'unforgiveable sin'. I had OCD tendencies since the age of 10. What a lonely time that was for a 14 yr old to go through. At different times of my life, after that, in reaction to the times of trying to rigidly follow the 'rules' of christianity, i would go the opposite way and throwing caution to the winds, commit all kinds of 'sins' deliberately to prove that i didnt care, and that it didnt matter. Of course that set me up for long long periods of guilt and trying to make amends and restitution for the sins committed in those periods. i would go from 'saint' to 'sinner' in succession. To make a long story short, after 20 yrs as a born again christian i left the church one year ago. during the first few months, the fear of hell returned and i spoke to a doctor who gave me Abilify to calm my thinking. i was kind of consumed with the fear of hell. i had some sessions with a psychologist, and i tried some creative strategies of my own, and with all that (including this forum), i got to a peaceful state of mind about it all (I dont take the abilify now). I dont think its possible for there to be such a place as hell, now. One thing that helped me a lot was reading the arguments (onlind) for Universalism, and for (if there is really a biblical God) the fate of unbelievers being to cease to exist, rather than eternal torment. I just don't believe it any more. Its very sad that people go through this, and i sincerely hope you get help. The more you look into it, the bible doesnt make any sense.
  8. If there is a cruel and vengeful god that wants to send me to Hell, he can kiss my ass. I would rather burn in Hell than serve such a god. I think that if God is so horrible and sadistic to send anyone to hell, especially after creating us knowing most of humanity would end up there, if that is his nature, how could anyone really hope to please him? why would someone so cruel even have a nice place like heaven? it doesnt add up. If hes nice enough to have prepared a lovely place like heaven for some, how could he be cruel enough to create a horrific place like hell? and vice versa? For this reason i no longer believe the bible account. its not possible. Even Jesus said, 'by their fruits ye shall know them'. if God is capable of such cruelty, he couldnt be called nice or loving at all, and it'd be crazy to put a childlike trust in him. If a human acted like it, he'd be the last person we would want to trust or love. Thankfully, this reasoning has led me to think theres no such thing as hell. Sadly, i guess it means theres no such place as heaven. Unless theres some other kind loving God out there, but i dont really see how there could be. Its true that there can be a good case made for hell not even being a biblical concept. but whatever that may be, there is still so much cruelty on the part of God in the Old Testament, that a being of such a capricious nature would be impossible to please. i dont know how anyone could hope to go to heaven. seems like he decided even before creating us that some would be 'vessels of wrath', doomed to hell before they were even born, and others, for no good they had done, were chosen to be elected for 'glory'. its a very sick concept. i find it sickening, and got so i couldnt bear to read the bible at all. On the other hand, i dont think 'the church' or 'christians' deliberately made up the concept of hell. I think it comes from the bible, and the church and christians believe the bible, therefore they preach that doctrine. i dont see how its just a tool to keep people enslaved by the church at all. the people who teach it, teach it because they believe God says it in the bible. I dont consider it to be their fault, and i dont blame them for it. its in the book, and they believe the book, so what else can they do? Believing the bible to be God's word, it wouldnt be reasonable to ignore the doctrine of hell. they feel bound to warn others. Sadly, believing God would really torment unbelievers eternally in hell, and having to 'defend God' for doing such a thing, they become desenstitized to the reality of what a horrific concept it is. they can't criticize God, so they end up defending a cruel concept, and make a lot of people angry.
  9. when i was a fundamentalist christian, liberal christians used to upset me because of what i thought to be their illogical thinking. For instance they are fond of saying that all religions are about the same God. That can't be right, because the different religions are contradictory, eg. 'Jesus is the only way', 'there are many gods'. if Jesus is the only way, then none of the other reigions can be true. if any of the others are true, Jesus can't be the only way. another thing, if they don't think the bible is completely the Word of God, if some of it is myth, some originates in the mnds of fallible men, how would anyone know which parts were from God? it'd be guesswork and speculation., it'd be just people's opinions. it wouldnt be folliowing God, it'd be following one's own or other people's ideas. no point in it. well there might be a point, but no point in calling it 'following Jesus', which was my idea of what being a christian was. And if our only knowledge of Jesus and the heaven of Jesus, the Father of Jesus, is from the bible, and if the bible is only true in parts, and we dont know which parts, there no way to really know what God wants or is like. again, guesswork. i think some people want to have a religion but dont actually believe in the biblical one, so they try to follow a different form of christianity, which doesnt really work or make sense. well, it only works if they dont think it trhough, llike fundamental christianity. Maybe theres pressure to have a religion, but in my country theres not. i keep hearing that in the USA thres like a stigma to being an atheist, but here its the opposite. to be a fundamental christian is to be a bit of a freak, a bit embarassing, even in church circles, except the fundamentalist ones of course. If i was mingling with liberal christians now, i would keep quiet about it. i can see where they're coming from. i miss having a faith, myself. i used to feel good thinking i would go to heaven, i didnt mind getting old and dying. I had a silly thought lately, 'why couldnt i just still believe i'm going to heaven?? i can believe that if i want to, and then i'd feel better' Dunno if it'll work or not. I've given up on 'seeking the truth', so it won't matter to kid myself, maybe.
  10. Maybe when the time is right, you could say something like 'i'm having a break from church for a while', and if they ask why, 'i want to figure some things out', 'some things i wonder about'...doesnt sound too drastic and leaves them hope that you will return at a later stage. all the best.
  11. oh, i'm jealous of you then! yes thats what i'm talking about, i think. hey i read watchman nee too. 'the normal chrisitan life' had a big impact on me. it helped me understand about being 'in Christ'. i.e. we can go in and out of christ moment to moment. only the things we do when wer're 'in' christ, are spiritual. i was able to consciously go 'into' christ, but it wasnt constant. i came to think that being 'in' christ was what being a christian was all about. and a good thing about it was, i thought, as long as i stayed in him, i couldnt go to hell. so that saved me a lot of worry. if i still believed in christianity, thats what i would still strive for. like 'resting in the arms of Jesus'. it cut out a lot of the BS. and it made a lot of sense to me. in that state of mind, you would not feel like harming anyone, or thinking 'mean' thoughts of them, or wanting revenge etc. yes i still miss that, and feel like something's lacking, now that i'm not a christian any more. being free to be selfish doesnt really thrill me. edit: i read that wrong pippa i thought you were still a christian? i must have gotten your username mixed up with a squid... no it was probably me. i'm still a bit confused. i dont believe in the bible any more, but some of me still likes some aspects of christianity. however i couldnt call myself one any more because i dont pray or read the bible or love God, and i dont think he bible could be inspired by God because it doesnt make sense for God to be cruel yet loving.
  12. oh, i'm jealous of you then! yes thats what i'm talking about, i think. hey i read watchman nee too. 'the normal chrisitan life' had a big impact on me. it helped me understand about being 'in Christ'. i.e. we can go in and out of christ moment to moment. only the things we do when wer're 'in' christ, are spiritual. i was able to consciously go 'into' christ, but it wasnt constant. i came to think that being 'in' christ was what being a christian was all about. and a good thing about it was, i thought, as long as i stayed in him, i couldnt go to hell. so that saved me a lot of worry. if i still believed in christianity, thats what i would still strive for. like 'resting in the arms of Jesus'. it cut out a lot of the BS. and it made a lot of sense to me. in that state of mind, you would not feel like harming anyone, or thinking 'mean' thoughts of them, or wanting revenge etc. yes i still miss that, and feel like something's lacking, now that i'm not a christian any more. being free to be selfish doesnt really thrill me.
  13. i've suffered from this too, including a period of time at age 13, and the years from about 40 to 50. it might be Obsessive Complusive Disorder, a branch of it called 'religious scrupulosity'. long story shortened, i've been deconverting over the last few months, and with the help of medication and some creative strategies, including my own form of 'meditation on comforting memories;, i think its gone. tomorrow i'm going to an information session with a visiting Tibetan Buddhist monk i've learned how not to think about hell. Universalism is a nice idea. its christian but they dont believe in hell as a place of eternal torment. they believe everyone goes to heaven. why believe in the worst case, if you could believe in the best? the bible isnt clear cut about it. i cant really believe in the eternal torment idea of hell, i just can't (and won't). all the best. get some medication and other help please, so you can enjoy the rest of your life. i'm only just starting now at 61, and its good.
  14. As a spin off from another thread i'd like to ask this question. Did anyone have an experience like the 'second blessing' or the 'baptism of the spirit', as described in christian literature, where they went from being a mediocre Christian who had to try to be spiritual, to where it became spontaneous and enjoyable to commune with God? there was, amongst others, a book called ''they found the secret' by Raymond Edmund i think. it made me very jealous of the people who got that second thing which filled them with joy and excitement of being 'in the Lord'. i dont mean the speaking in tongues, although that might come into it. just the change where you dont have to TRY to be spiritual, you become so that the spiritual life is ,ore enjoyable than the 'carnal' life. i never had it. did anyone else?
  15. i know its not politically correc to say it here, but if it helps, you can always hang on to the promise that once you're a child of God you can't be lost. i know its 'having a bet each way', but if it helps, why not? its like pascals wager in reverse. some part of me still believes and loves Jesus, even now. i might not feel this way in 6 months though. its a progression. you'll be ok, i bet.
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