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Neon Genesis

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Everything posted by Neon Genesis

  1. I think Paul's resurrection is a spiritual one, not a literal one. Paul says himself in 1 Cor 15 that it's impossible for the physical to enter heaven. He doesn't describe any physical details of the resurrection accounts in the gospels. He describes his resurrection experiences in terms of having visions, like one verse where he talks about being taken into the third heaven and he compares his resurrection experience to that of the other witnesses.
  2. Bible scholar John Shelby Spong argues in his book "Rescuing The Bible from Fundamentalism" that Paul believed in a spiritual resurrection, not a physical resurrection. Spong points out that in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that Paul says If it's impossible for a physical body to enter the kingdom of heaven, how could Jesus be physically raised from the dead and be able to return to heaven? Paul also says that they all experienced the same kind of resurrection he did, which was that of a vision rather than a physical resurrection. How can someone be a foremost respected historian on the resurrection? Isn't that like being a foremost respected UFOologist? You're claiming that the bible is historically accurate because the bible says it is. That's assuming inerrancy using the logical fallacy of circular logic. Would you accept the Koran as being legitimate evidence for the divine inerrancy of Islam just because Muslims say it is? Prove that there was an empty tomb and that Thomas really did feel the nail holes with his fingers without using the bible. Show me anywhere in 1 Cor 15 where Paul mentions an empty tomb or Thomas feeling the nail holes of Jesus. If you have four different accounts that claimed to have witnessed a UFO sighting and none of them agreed on any of their facts, would that still be proof that they saw a real UFO? Please explain who it was then that Mary met at the tomb. Please explain where it says in 1 Corinthians 15 that it takes place after 24 months of the resurrection. You have not presented any evidence of this whatsoever and just keep repeating the same argument and ignoring my question. Stop it.
  3. Watch a Christian, John Shelby Spong, debunk the resurrection of Jesus: http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/29642627
  4. John's gospel does not claim to be written by John himself. It only says it was written by the beloved disciple but never identifies who he is. Matthew and Mark never say who they are either and the belief that they were written by apostles and friends of the apostles was a tradition made up later by the church fathers but isn't stated in the gospels themselves. And you yourself state that Luke wasn't an eyewitness and got his account from other people.
  5. It was C.S. Lewis who used the argument first but most biblical scholars think the argument is nonsense because there's no historical evidence that Jesus ever called himself God in the flesh.
  6. The Epicureans were not atheists. The Epicureans were deists. They believed in God and the soul but they believed the gods didn't interfere with the natural universe and that soul was made of atoms. They were not atheists in any sense of the word. And what historical evidence is there Jesus ever called himself God in the flesh?
  7. It has long been accepted that Genesis is a symbolic account describing the relationship between humans and God rather than a literal scientific account since the days of St. Augustine. St. Augustine wrote himself in his book The Literal Meaning of Genesis that if science and scripture contradicted each other, Christians should accept science over religion. This has always been an acceptable orthodox position for Catholics. It's relevant to the topic because you're trying to argue between evolution and religion but I'm trying to show you this is a false dichotomy. Don't tell me what is or isn't relevant to my own topic. And Gnostics called the orthodox Christians heretics, too. So what? You're still making a No True Scotsman fallacy. If the Gnostics were always accepted as heretics and everybody knew this, why would John consider it important enough to write about them? I have read the entire bible thank you very much and I don't see where in the bible it says what the correct way to worship is. You're just trying to dodge my questions. Quit it. And yet in Galatians 2, Peter and James disagreed with Paul on it. I guess this is news to Jesus then. Matthew 28:16-20 I just said these Christians who accept homosexuality are basing their moral beliefs on the bible. Are you blind? And if you don't care what other people say, why should we care what you say?
  8. So everyone is biased but Christians aren't because Christians are super special awesome or something?
  9. Does LNC honestly expect anyone here to take the ontological argument seriously? What happened to LNC's favorite pet argument, the Kalaam Cosmological Argument and his William Lane Craig obsession?
  10. How is freewill compatible with an all-knowing god? So God allows a child to be raped by a pedophile priest because some good might come out of being raped? Human life didn't come into existence until millions of years after the big bang. How is that a personal origin? So why did God create wisdom teeth that you're just going to have have removed later on and serve no purpose? How is God loving and good for commanding the Israelites to stone people for eating shrimp and wearing clothes made from mixed fabrics?
  11. So what is your point, LNC? That scientists have faith in gravity like you have faith in God? You don't need to have "faith" in gravity. If you don't believe in it, you can drop a set of dumbbells off the top of a building and see if they fall or not. If the dumbbells fall to to the ground, gravity is real. If the dumbbells float in the air, then gravity isn't real. No faith required.
  12. I think you have it backwards. Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence. To claim that a crucified Jewish man was raised from the dead on the third day is an extraordinary claim and it's your job to back it up with extraordinary evidence. It is logically impossible to prove a negative and we're not the ones making the assertive claim, you are, so it's your job to prove it. Even the bible says that Christians should always be prepared to give a reason for the hope they have. It doesn't say skeptics should always have a reason, it says Christians should. Where in 1 Corinthians 15 does it ever say Paul wrote that letter 24 months after the resurrection of Jesus? I've read that entire chapter and I fail to see where that it is ever stated anywhere in that passage.
  13. Is LNC seriously claiming most historians believe that 1 Corinthians 15 is a historically accurate account of the resurrection? I'm sorry but just no. And Thomas was not a skeptic in any sense of the word. Nobody in the ancient world was a skeptic. Everyone in the ancient world believed in God and miracles.
  14. It has long been accepted that Catholicism is compatible with evolution and the big bang and Catholics don't believe Genesis is a literal account. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19956961/ns/world_news-europe/ This is a No True Scotsman fallacy and you just ignored my question again and didn't answer why I should believe you over the Gnostics. What is the correct way to worship God and how do you know your way of worshiping God is the correct one? Even in the bible, there were Christians who were Paul's rivals who believed all Gentiles should be required to follow the old law to be Christians. You mean you've never heard of the Judaizers before or the Ebionites? So you're saying the Great Commission isn't in the bible? That would be news to millions of evangelicals around the world. Jesus said in John 10:10 that his purpose was to bring life. Those Christians who you say are following man instead of God also claim to be following God and they say you're the one who's following man. So again, why should I believe your moral beliefs are more correct than them? If Christianity is the only true source of morality, then how can two Christians read the same bible and come away from the same bible with two opposing views on homosexuality?
  15. I'm still waiting for LNC to tell us how do we know it's his god and his version of Christianity that fine tuned the universe.
  16. I'm glad you're doing well Shyone but I'll miss your presence on the forums and I hope you'll still drop by every once and awhile. Live long and prosper!
  17. We don't know the apostles themselves claimed to have seen the resurrected Jesus as we don't have access to the actual words of the apostles given that they didn't write anything down. What we have are gospels being written decades after the life of Jesus claiming the apostles had seen Jesus raised from the dead. But in the earliest manuscripts of Mark's gospel, which is the earliest gospel written, there are no records of the risen Jesus appearing to the apostles. The earliest Christian writings we have access to are the letters of Paul and nowhere in Paul's letters does he say there was an empty tomb nor does he reference any of the resurrection accounts in the gospels, like Jesus appearing in the upper room or doubting Thomas touching the flesh of Jesus. Paul's resurrection accounts are visions of a spiritual Jesus, not a physically raised Jesus. There is simply no evidence of an empty tomb other than later hearsay which is not evidence at all and it's more likely the Romans never even gave the body of Jesus back to the apostles but they fed Jesus' body to the dogs to be eaten.
  18. Which Christian worldview? Catholics say that God created the universe through the big bang and evolution and that Genesis is just a fable. Why should I believe your claims over theirs? Gnostics say that the universe was created by an evil false god. Why should I believe your claims over theirs? Which Christian purpose should I believe in? The purpose we're supposed to follow is different by denomination. The End Times Christians say our purpose is to get the Jews back into power in Israel to bring about the Second Coming. Christian Reconstructionists say our purpose is to turn America into a Christian theocracy that should be ruled by Old Testament law. Evangelical Christians say our purpose is to convert the world to their version of Christianity. Liberal Christians say our purpose is to execute social justice through liberation theology views. Which Christian purpose is the correct one and why should I follow your purpose over anyone else's? Christians don't agree with each other on anything in morality. Some Christians say God loves and accepts homosexuals while other Christians say gays should be put to death. Some Christians say abortion is murder while other Christians believe it's a woman's right to choose. Some Christians believe women should be submissive to men and not be allowed to preach or have leadership roles. Other Christians believe that God allows women to preach and support equal rights for women. Some Christians believe Jesus calls Christians to practice non-violent pacifism while other Christians use the bible to justify violence and wars. So which Christian morality should we believe in and why should we believe your morals over any other Christian's? Christians don't agree with each other on what happens when we die. Some Christians say everyone goes to heaven. Others say only true Christians go to heaven. Some Christians say hell is a spiritual separation from God. Others believe hell is a real physical place. Some Christians say hell is only temporary and other Christians say hell is eternal. Which afterlife belief is the correct one and why should I believe your afterlife belief over other Christians'?
  19. Yet the very first thing God did after he created the universe was he lied to Adam and Eve.
  20. If you're not going to respond to my posts, then stop replying to my thread, LNC. I'm the one who posted this thread, you know.
  21. Actually, we do know of things in the universe that exists which are uncaused. They're called gas molecules: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument#Scientific_positions
  22. LNC's arguments can be summed up as follows: You're misrepresenting this view! blahblahblahblahblah etc Goddidit! blahblahblahblahblah etc God doesn't need to have been created because I say so! blahblahblahblahblah
  23. I'm avoiding answering your question because I don't waste my time explaining basic theology to moronic Christians who should already know this. Come back to this thread when the wizard gives you a brain because until then I'm not debating anything with you. I'll be perfectly blunt that I find debating with you to be annoying and frustrating and I'm not going to debate with you further until you get your act together and stop changing arguments as you go along. I'm tired of playing your little word games with you. Apparently LNC thinks he knows more about science than Stephen Hawking does which is just laughable.
  24. How do you feel pain in hell if you're dead?
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