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Everything posted by Checkmate

  1. It's somewhat comical to observe the whole "faith vs evidence" conundrum in Christians. They know they have no evidence upon which to base their faith, and yet they are very insecure without this evidence. It's not the unbeliever they are trying convince, but themselves. They seek desperately to prove that they are rational adults, and not deluded nitwits like those OTHER clowns in those "false" religions. Christianity, they say, has "evidence that demands a verdict." Whereas those OTHER people are deceived followers of a false god, whose faith isn't founded in the TRUTH...like the Christian. Yet when asked to provide this evidence they can't do it. Their faith has no foundation other than hope and crossing their fingers. This realization makes them uncomfortable, so they keep seeking evidence that PROVES they aren't deluded. Never understanding that faith and evidence are mutually exclusive. Faith is believing WITHOUT evidence/proof. Where there is evidence there is no need for faith. So bang goes your religion. They're like dogs chasing their own tails, and when they bite it it hurts. It'd be funnier if Christians weren't so dangerous to innocent by-standers.
  2. All good advice. I heartily support the liberal Christian/devil's advocate game plan. Simply pretend to go along with the BS, point out religious inconsistencies, have some fun at their expense and bide your time until you are a free adult. In other words, just live life like any NORMAL teenager suffering under an oppressive parent. When you stop to think about it, your circumstances are no different than EVERY TEEN HUMAN BEING WHO HAS EVER LIVED IN THE HISTORY OF EARTH. I mean, what teen has ever NOT agreed fully with their parents and had to hide the Truth from them until they "grew up"? You're 14 years old. I'm 49 years old. Trust me, speaking as a parent AND a child, I've seen it from BOTH sides. It's normal, expected and even healthy to hide certain facts from your parents. Hell, I'm STILL hiding stuff from my 85-year old mother! Not because I'm afraid of her, but because what I do is none of her damned business. And she sleeps easier this way. Your situation is normal and it's not the end of the world. Grin and bear it. It's the standard parent-child relationship.
  3. Hello oladotun. Welcome to the forums and the world of Free Thought. I won't bother belaboring the excellent points that the others have previously made. I'd just like to congratulate you and encourage you to keep plugging away. We've all been where you're at, so we know how difficult "Faith Exiting" can be. For another source of on-line encouragement and ammunition, may I recommend the link in my signature? It is chock full of excellent articles and videos to help navigate you out of the religious mindfuck -- er, mindFIELD. Toodles!
  4. Hey RubySera, This little talk reminds me that Christians often say, "Pray as if everything depended on God, but work as if everything depended on you." This is their tacit admission that you'd better do it yourself, because there is no God around to help you. Sort of like Ben Franklin's saying of "God helps those who help themselves." (Which SOME Christians think is a Bible verse! ) Which all dovetails neatly with another church teaching I heard years ago. They said that God won't do anything for you, UNTIL you first begin to do something. God doesn't WANT to do it all for you. Everything is a co-operative effort. When you begin to move, that's when God joins you and grants you the strength. If you sit around and wait for God to do something on your behalf, He won't! You must take the lead. WTF?!? This is nothing less than Christians admitting that EVERYTHING we accomplish is done in our own strength, and "God" is simply given the credit for what we achieve. Of course, if we fail then that is OUR fault, not His. What utter and obscene bullcrap. I am SO glad that I managed to escape the looney bin! That's just the sort of pretzel logic that would have screwed me up for life.
  5. Hi RubySera. While I wouldn't go so far as to admit that I "turned my life around through the church", I will say that they did provide a positive community for me to work out my "demons." For that, I am grateful. Yet, I would have to say my turn around was mostly self-care/self-effort, combined with a supportive atmosphere. Precisely the same mechanics that enable the recovering addict during rehab. I'm often quick to point out, before any Christian tries to blow the horn for Christ, that my success story is not unique to Christianity. Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, AA, Drug Rehab and psychotherapists can ALL boast that they have helped people turn lives around. And note for the record that I was already in the process of changing BEFORE I "came to Christ". So no "prayers" nor the "miracle" of the "shed blood of Jesus" had anything to do with things. It really is too bad that the church is so psychotic, because as a helpful community they CAN be a force for great good. If they could simply divest themselves of the perverse need to embrace myths and superstitions and become more humanistic, (man-centered and not god-centered) then they could be a shining beacon of hope.
  6. I see no need to single out Christianity (which is merely pagan mythology applied by Paul to Jesus, who we know little or nothing about.) ALL revealed religions are anti-intellectual, but the one that remains the most primitive is Islam. It's institutionalized mistreatment of women alone puts it in that category, and Muhammed was a known perv on several counts. Beg pardon, but, I "singled out" Christianity, because #1) THAT is the subject of this thread, and #2) As I demonstrated, it has VERSES that specifically cry out against intelligence. And as you will note, I said it is the MOST, not ONLY anti-intellectual religion. I'm an anti-theist, so I forgive NONE of them. Yes, Islam IS fucked up. Most assuredly as much as Christianity. But this isn't a thread about Islam, is it? Which is why I've confined my comments to Christianity. If you want to do a compare and contrast of which is the Worst Religion Of ALL (a moot point), then feel free to do so. That wasn't my intent here. I was just answering the thread topic.
  7. I LOVE my brain. I LOVE my intellect. I may not be the smartest person in the world, but still I treasure my ability to think. Christianity is the MOST anti-intellectual religion on the planet. In Genesis, God curses Adam and Eve for what crime? Eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They dared to get smart and this pissed off God. Later on we see God get pissed again when mankind co-operated to build a high tower in Babel, so he confuses man's language so they can't advance technologically. And in the New Testament Jesus commands that we sabotage our reason and become "as children" to accept what he says. Later on St. Paul says that the "wisdom of man" is at enmity with the "foolishness of God". If Christians had their way, we'd all be stuck in the Stone Age, believing the world was flat and terrified of fire, lightning and sacrificing goats and virgins to please their God. Bottom line: In order to accept BY FAITH Jesus Christ/God, we must be intellectually dishonest, ignore the facts/truth, give ourselves a lobotomy, and become gullible children/sheep. I refuse to do this to myself. I reject anything and everything that doesn't make sense. And I condemn anyone who commands me to gouge out my brain, close my eyes, or just "have faith" to please/believe "God". If Christianity isn't an anti-intellectual religion, then I don't know what is. And this is why I am against it.
  8. Scott, first you give us some cock-and-bull personal laundry list of what YOU say makes a True Christian™. You say that these characteristics MUST be adhered to. And then when HanSolo points out that you DON'T love Jesus enough to sell all your possessions, you A) Claim that you are still growing in this department and B ) Even if you are still growing, it doesn't matter because YOU have a different interpretation of that scripture which means you don't have to comply with it. Standard Kettle Logic at work. You're full of shit, Scott. Why is it that YOU can be "growing" and be not yet perfect, and still be considered a True Christian™, yet you deny the same leeway for your brethren? You judge that others are NOT Christians because they fall short of YOUR Pharisaical rules, (totally unbiblical BTW) yet you give yourself all kinds of loopholes to slither through. You say that going to church doesn't make one a True Christian™? Well, of course YOU'D say this! YOU don't go to church! How handy is that? Scott, you're no True Christian™. You're one of the Pharisees that Jesus warned us all about. Talking shit and judging others. Get bent.
  9. Wrong, wrong, wrong! You couldn't possibly be more wrong. How in the WORLD can you arrogantly state that "Christians have heard every argument in the book"? What, are YOU "God" now? You know this for a fact? Scott, I dare say that YOU haven't even heard every argument in the book. And the few that you have "heard" you summarily dismiss as "worldly wisdom", an "attack from Satan", or a "testing of your faith by God". The utter pointlessness of debate comes from YOUR side of the aisle and your blatant disingenuousness when you don't confess that you have encountered the Truth of our arguments. Have you read this post yet? Why Christians Just Don't Get It I'm not asking for you input or insight on this thread. I'm just curious as to whether or not you READ it. Read both it and the attendant links I provided about Delusion and Compartmentalization. Short and sweet, Scott. You AND White_Raven23 are both correct. It IS pointless debating with a Christian (IF your purpose is to "win" an argument). Christians DON'T listen! However, as WR23 put it, our debates are NOT for the purpose of convincing YOU of anything. We're arguing our position for the benefit of LURKERS who are reading our words. And when YOU make such a dismal showing in the theater of ideas against us, it convinces and sways the LURKER to abandon Christianity as the retarded cult that it is. Glory! So keep those weak-kneed "faith" arguments coming, Scott. The more lame, the better. (For US, that is. )
  10. This is all very silly. Of COURSE it is possible to be an ex-Christian. We're here, aren't we? What is your problem, InspectoGeneral? A "Christian" is ANYONE who follows "Christ" and His teachings. (Screw all of the religious hair-splitting.) When that someone STOPS following "Christ" and His teachings, they become "EX" or FORMER followers. They even wrote about such people in the bible. It's called apostasy. Falling away. What is so impossible to understand about this? I know, I know. Much easier for you to believe that we were NEVER "Christians", as opposed to believing that anyone could once embrace and then leave "Christ". To accept the latter reality puts YOU in jeopardy, doesn't it? If it can happen to US, some of whom were MINISTERS, then it could happen to YOU. Poor human. I can smell your fear a parsec away.
  11. I hope you're not counting the Christian "leadership" in your calculations. Because owning thousands of acres of land, mansions, billion-dollar TV stations and diamond mines in Africa doesn't sound like the "lower half of the socio-economic scale" to me.
  12. First question/first seed, huh? Well, as near as I can recall it was the issue surrounding denominationalism and multiple Bible translations. If it was supposed to be "one Lord, one faith and one baptism", then why are there upwards of 30,000 different denominations/sects worldwide arguing over "correct" doctrine? Why is there no unity amongst Christians? Added to that, there are what...two DOZEN Holy Bible™ translations to choose from and argue over? And even when Christians agree on what Bible to read from, they STILL interpret it differently. I wondered then, "Where is God during all of this confusion?" "Why would God allow His Word to be so mangled and misused?" "Why would he allow people seeking Him to be led so horribly astray?" According to the Bible, this same God got angry when his people brought discredit upon his name. He even killed Ananias and Sapphira for lying about their offering. So...why is he so silent now? His sheep are going astray like a mother fucker and "God" stands mute. It was this thought process that led me to question everything else, until, like Dominoes, the entire work collapsed. The religion, like ALL religions, was revealed as nothing more than a man-made house of cards that gullible and frightened children lived within as they hid from the scary realities of life. I concluded it was having "faith in Christ" that is "building your house on sand". If you wanted a secure foundation, then you'd better try building from REAL materials and not use your imagination. Because the crushing waves of Life have very little respect for "Faith Castles" built in the sand.
  13. Greetings OnceConvinced. As you have noticed "you are NOT alone!" Much of your lament and travails are ours as well. The questions, doubts, probing and the coming of awareness that you've been manipulated, whether overtly/covertly, deliberately or unintentionally are things most of us have experienced. I hope that you continue to persevere on the Road to Recovery. I offer you this link to my blog on this forum ==> Mr. Grinch's Blog. On it I have listed several links to web articles and on-line books that should prove enlightening for you. There is much concerning how churches manipulate the masses and individual. Pretty powerful and frightening "revelations". Good luck in your endeavors.
  14. This entire post is replete with contradictions and sophistry. You say that Christians shouldn't accuse someone of being a sinner, and THEN you say that you believe we are ALL sinners. You just ACCUSED us of being sinners again! In the same breath that you say that you shouldn't do it! You say that a Christian should NEVER judge you. "Period". Hmmm...I distinctly remember someone posting as "freeday" judging ME and concluding that I had "anger issues". And all without the benefit of a psychology degree, nor a formal session on the couch. Sounds like a "judgment" to me. How can you possibly convince anyone they need Christ and salvation if you DON'T point out their sinfulness and flaws? This is inherent in your religion, whether you like it or not. That's why you preach ("lead by example") Christ to us. Whether you SAY it or not, the implication is LOUD and CLEAR. You believe you are better than everyone else, and Christ is why. Trying to skip out of this arrogant position is just further proof of how disingenuous you are. When you emphatically take one position over another, you are by default casting aspersions on the other's position. Whether it is spoken or not. WE ALL DO THIS. When I say I'm an atheist, I am also saying in a subtle way, "You're an idiot for believing in god." It can't be helped. Likewise when you say you're a Christian, you are subtly declaring, "You unbelievers are lost without my beliefs and you need help." Try and paint the most magnanimous face on it you want to, but the TRUTH of the matter is that we ALL "judge" one another by default merely by maintaining a contrary position. The only difference between you and me, freeday, is that I have the guts and courage of my convictions to stand by my words, instead of waffling and vacillating while trying to placate my opponents with pleas of "Can't we all just get along?" No. We can't. Even your own "god" declares this. "What fellowship hath light with darkness?" NONE! You may be fooling all the rest with your backpeddling, trying to pass yourself off as some "non-judgmental Christian", who now thinks we're all so wonderful (i.e. "not sinners"), but I remember your previous posts, and I KNOW what it means to be a Christian! YOU are The Borg™! It is your desire and passion to "win us to Christ". And why? Because you BELIEVE that there is something wrong with us! You BELIEVE that we need help! Hello? How can THIS not be "judgment"? If you REALLY expect me to believe this new and improved freeday, who doesn't "judge" and isn't trying to get anyone to accept Christ, then you need to either leave this forum, OR quit defending your monster god/religion. Stop pushing it in everyone's face as the End-All and Be-All of Correct Existence on Earth and in the Afterlife. Go away, or stop "preaching Christ", and then I'll believe you aren't here to "judge" anyone. Otherwise I'm going to be forced to continue calling you a LIAR.
  15. WAIT! Don't put the Valkyrie outfit away! You look so hot in it! I was getting a chubby! I fucking LOVE it when you rave out! Oh, and here's the mead, my lovely.
  16. How many times have Christians asked this question, or a variation thereof? Why are we so rude? Why do we curse at them? Why are we so angry/bitter? Why can’t we be nice? We get these questions and then we offer our defenses, whatever they may be. But it occurred to me that rather than answer the Christian accusations, maybe instead we ought to be asking our own question(s). To wit: “Why do Christians expect unbelievers to behave nicely?” Fact: Christians accuse us of being “sinners”. Wicked, evil, unregenerate reprobates of NO good character. According to the Christian, unbelievers have no morals or ethics without their “God”. They EXPECT “bad behavior” from us. (So, why are Christians surprised when they receive rude behavior?) Fact: Christians claim that the ONLY way that ANYONE (especially us “sinners”) can behave decently (read; be kind, good, forgiving, merciful, faithful, etc.) is to be FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD. Something they tell us WE DON’T HAVE. (But that THEY do.) (So, why do Christians expect this virtuous behavior from us, when they “know” that we are incapable of it without their “God’s” “Holy Spirit” power?) I remember back when I was a new Christian. I would often become incensed with people for using profanity around me. I’d even demand that they stop. But then one day it hit me: I’M the one who is supposed to be “Born Again”, not them. Why should I expect THEIR behavior to change, when I’m the one with “God’s Holy Spirit”? THEY were only behaving like the lost souls they were. “Children of the devil”, I called them. (Yes, I was a True Fundy nutjob. Leave me alone. I repented of my stupidity!) So thereafter I quit hounding “sinners” to “behave” themselves. It was up to ME to be strong in MY faith and endure whatever they threw my way. I was supposed to be this “new creature in Christ”, not them. The onus of change was upon MY shoulders, not theirs. It is with THIS knowledge/revelation that I ask today’s Christians: WHY DO YOU EXPECT NON-BELIEVERS TO BEHAVE NICELY? We aren’t the ones with your “Spirit-filled Life”. Why expect us to ACT like we are? Are you really so weak in YOUR faith that you can’t deal with our bad attitudes? Are you hot-house flowers in need of sheltering from the “abusive words” of the heathen? AND: If we “sinners” DO behave ourselves nicely, under our own self-effort, does that now mean that there is NO NEED for “God’s Holy Ghost” empowerment? Hmm….Food for thought, ain’t it?
  17. Welcome aboard, Indy107! I can relate to your situation and revelations. I recall how amazed and disgusted I felt when I learned about the formation of the canon of scripture (by vote) and the history of the church and denominations. "Where is god in all of this mess?," I asked myself. Apparently MIA. And I, too, am married to a "Christian" wife who wants NOTHING to do with my atheism and criticisms of her faith. (Despite the fact that she is as "lukewarm" as they come.) It makes for a lonely marriage when you can no longer share yourself. Here's hoping things work out for you.
  18. Thirteen pages, 248 posts (only EIGHT of which are from the thread starter) and now we've been reduced to debating (AMONGST OURSELVES!) a totally off-topic issue. Can anyone give me ONE GOOD REASON why this thread shouldn't be closed? I say put it out of its misery. ISB keeps running away with her tail between her legs, spewing empty religious platitudes in her wake, and we're left ranting at no one but ourselves. This is pointless and a waste of bandwidth equivalent to dealing with a troller and spam. Istillbelieve obviously isn't interested in having a discussion. I vote this thread be closed. What say the rest of the assembled throng?
  19. I totally agree, Thackerie. This current subject has derailed and deviated horribly from the thread's main topic. This was unintentional, but still uncool behavior. Golden Meadows, since it appears that you are the ONLY one who has a bone to pick here, and you don't want to let our atheism remain untouched or unchallenged, why don't you begin a separate and distinct thread over in General Theological Issues? That way, if anyone else wants to debate this with you, they may. Know that I won't be joining you, because I see no point in having this discussion. It looks like fruitless tail chasing to me.
  20. GM, twice now you've used the term fundamentalist. Accusing US of having the mindset of a Fundy. Um...allow me to say, "Pot? This is the Kettle. You're black." YOU have taken up the mantle of Fundy, as you make haste to FORCE us into YOUR concepts of "faith". You can't seem to accept that we ARE atheists and that we don't have faith. You want us to bow to YOUR definition of "faith", and be held strictly to it. THAT is Fundamentalism at it's finest. The reason for your frustration in this discussion is YOUR unwillingness to concede to OUR points raised. Just like a Fundy. Remember, when you point a finger to accuse someone, you have three fingers pointing back at you. Months ago, Asimov and I got into BIG trouble on another thread for daring to question the "rightness" of agnosticism. Agnostics HATE it when we atheists tell them what they SHOULD call themselves. And they are correct in this anger. So, why should we atheists be any LESS angered when you tell us that we aren't truly atheists, because we MUST have "faith" NOT to believe? That we MUST embrace Agnosticism and reject Atheism, because according to YOU, agnosticism makes more sense? I'm an atheist. I have NO faith. Deal with it, or continue to be a Fundy trying to force me into YOUR mold.
  21. Golden Meadows, I seriously don't understand what the problem is. It is not semantics. Atheism does not require faith. If I am NOT holding an apple, does it require "faith" to "believe" that I am NOT holding an apple? Does it require "faith" to NOT "believe" in Santa Claus? Does it require "faith" for me to "believe" that I cannot fly ala "Superman"? More importantly, does it require "faith" for YOU to "believe" that I can't fly? It requires ZERO "faith" to NOT believe something. You either have it, or you don't. Atheism is PASSIVE, while faith is ACTIVE. At no time in my life do I wake up each day trying to convince myself that there is no god. Meanwhile, god-believers do JUST the opposite. They MUST strive to "keep the faith" lest it all fall apart. My atheism requires no such bolstering. To be an atheist does not require that I disprove god. How does one disprove something which one does not believe exists? If god believers can't prove "god", then how can I disprove "god"? The burden of proof is NOT upon me to disprove god. "God's" absence is "proof" enough. Just like my inability to fly is proof enough that I can't fly. No "faith" is required. With all due respect to you and Bertrand Russell, but I stand by my logic and reasoning. Atheism does NOT require "faith". I don't require "faith" to "believe" that I don't have something. Atheism = Without God Belief. I don't have god-belief. No "faith" involved. It doesn't get any simpler than this.
  22. You said, "atheism in its purest sense is the REQUIREMENT for faith". Please explain this. Because as an atheist, I have ZERO faith in anything. Particularly in god. Atheism means WITHOUT GOD BELIEF. There is no "requirement" needed. No effort to put forth. It's a statement of what I DON'T have. Atheism does NOT say, "I know there is no god." It says, "I don't have belief in god." It's agnosticism without the question mark. And I don't know how to answer the fundamentalist crack. When I oppose the bible and Christians, I, out of necessity, take the stance of a literalist. I don't believe one can argue something if there is no concrete, common ground of understanding. If everyone is allowed to interpret and believe whatever their heart desires, then you may as well quit arguing. Hence I don the robes of a Fundy Literalist when I argue with Christians. It makes things easier. Plus, it is the fastest route for demonstrating how stupid the religion is! If this doesn't answer your questions, try again, because I'm not sure what you're getting at. (Except the part where you said that you don't agree with all the article says. And that is OK with me. I didn't write the darn thing, so what do I care? )
  23. i'm not sure what float down the river ment. must be an older saying. even myself, a professed christian has gone floating down the river before. but i believe the verse actually said plank. you have to cut her a break though. based on her principles and beliefs, she feels that she is only trying to help you. then in return she gets called idiot. this is very demoralizing for anyone. but she feels guilty for leaving, because she feels she has an obligation to help you. you have to understand that this can cause frustration. but she doesn't realize that all we are called to do is spread the word. i feel confident that everyone on here knows the message of Jesus. so she just has to realize, that it is out of her hands. And how is this OUR fault? You Christians embrace a retarded belief system that causes you mental anquish, because it doesn't fit in with reality, and WE'RE the "bad guys"? Gimme a fucking break! It is YOUR religion that is causing the problem, not us. We did not invite ISB to this forum. WE did not go looking for her to pick a fight. That was HER call, as dictated by HER retarded religious beliefs. I feel absolutely NO pity or remorse for treating her, you or any other religious nitwit harshly, under THESE circumstances. Now, if I were to go onto ChristianForums, or go into a church, or come into YOUR home and abuse you, THEN you'd have reason to complain. But in THIS case...? You say that "we must understand". But what YOU must understand is that we DO understand! We once believed the same crap that YOU do! I was once an evangelist myself. I'm fully aware of how your religion warps your mind and forces you to perform against common sense. And THAT is why we want no part of it anymore! We're free! (Why can't YOU "understand" us? It's like being a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, when someone comes in preaching the goodness of Jim Beam®! They wouldn't get a warm welcome, I assure you.) I will not "cut her a break". Her, nor YOU, nor anyone else who attempts to trap me and anyone else into your cult of insanity. You're members of a stupid religion, you're preaching stupid beliefs and therefore you are stupid people. Deal with it, morons.
  24. White_raven23, when I get divorced, will you marry me? You and I have been on the same page so often it's scary! I thought of the same analogy, but didn't want to waste my breath (keystrokes) on ISB. (Pearls before swine and all that.) You fucking rock, girl!
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