Report The Love Of Jesus in Colosseum Posted December 14, 2009 I'm just going to repost these examples of what non-Christians have that Larry can't have because he is a Christian. You cannot understand the Love of God like this if you are a Christian. Greetings Mary. I’m going to try something that may prove to be enlightening. Rev R had suggested to Pastor before trying explaining this without using the Christian language to describe it. I’m going to take some of the things you say and restate them and address my response to that. <snip> You say: ” However, the difference between a believer's experience knowing the love of Jesus and the non-believer's experience, is that the non-believer has never let that experience ignite the belief in Him, which is the seed for a real relationship with God.” Translated: ‘I don’t see that those who don’t believe as I do can possibly have experienced what I do with God, because how I believe results in this for me. Therefore because they don’t believe this that means that can’t experience this. Either the switch is on, or it’s off. Response: This is not the reality of life for others who don’t use the same system of belief. They do experience what you experience. And in cases, far deeper experiences of the Divine. Examples: 1. Ralph Woodrow Emerson. “Beauty in nature is not ultimate. It is the herald of inward and eternal beauty, and is not alone a solid and satisfactory good… Nature is a symbol of spirit… Before the revelations of the Soul, time, space and nature shrink away… In the hour of vision there is nothing that can be called gratitude, nor properly joy. The soul raised over passion beholds identity and eternal causation, perceives the self-existence of Truth and Right, and calms itself with knowing that all things go well. Vast spaces of nature, the Atlantic Ocean, the South Seas, long intervals of time, years, centuries, are of no account… Let us stun and astonish the intruding rabble of men and books and institutions by a simple declaration of the divine fact. Bid the intruders take the shoes from off their feet, for God is here within. Let our simplicity judge them, and our docility to our own law demonstrate the poverty of Nature beside our native riches.” These are the words of a man who rejected Christianity. 2. Now the words of a Christian, however she would be considered as “not knowing God” by most Evangelical Christians because she was Catholic, a “non-Christian” according to many. The words of Mother Teresa: “ And now let us see what becomes of this silkworm. When it is in this state of cessation, and quite dead to the world, it comes out little white butterfly, Oh, greatness of God, that a soul should come out like this after being closely united for so short a time – never, I think, for as long as half an hour. For think of the difference between an ugly worm and a white butterfly; it is just the same here. The soul cannot think how it can have merited such a blessing – whence such blessing could have come to it, I meant to say, for it knows quite well that it has not merited it at all. …. But here it is like rain falling from the heavens into a river or spring; there is nothing but water there and it is impossible to divide or separate the water belongs to the river from that which fell from the heavens. Or it is as if a tiny streamlet enters the sea, from which it will find no way of separating itself, or as if in a room there were two large windows which the light streamed in: it enters in different places but it all becomes one.” These all are, by the way, expressions of direct experience. Not a theoretical speculation. I know this for myself. 3. Sri Auribindo, Eastern Indian mystic/philosopher: “Its first effect has been the liberation of life and mind out of Matter; its last effect has been to assist the emergence of a spiritual consciousness, a spiritual will and spiritual sense of existence in the terrestrial being so that he is no longer solely preoccupied with his outermost life or with mental pursuits and interests, but has learned to look within, to discover his inner being, his spiritual self, to aspire to overpass earth and her limitations. As he grows more and more inward, his boundaries mental, vital, and spiritual begin to broaden, the bonds that held life, mind, soul to their first limitations loosen or snap, and man the mental being begins to have a glimpse of a larger kingdom of self and world closed to the first earth-life.” 4. Sri Ramana Maharshi: “The Self is known to everyone but not clearly. The Being is the Self. “I am” is the name of God. Of all the definitions of God, none is indeed so well put as the Biblical statement I AM THAT I AM. The Absolute Being is what is – It is the Self. It is God. Knowing the Self, God is known. In fact, God is none other than the Self.” Again, these are expressions of humans who have experienced something that Transcendent Love, and is found regardless of religion. The effects of this are life transforming, by the way, not just for a moment like you suggested. Will you continue to say that they can’t or don’t experience God the way a Christian can? One more example: 5. Meister Eckhart: “For in this break-through I discover that I and God are one. There I am what I was, and I grow neither smaller nor bigger, for I am an immovable cause that moves all things. Therefore also I am unborn, and following the way of my unborn being I can never die. Following the way of my unborn being I have always been, I am now, and shall remain eternally.” Now I repeat. A Christian cannot experience the Love of the Transcendent God described above so long as they are Christians. They will always be outside of that because their beliefs are in error. ..... So, let me ask this question Larry and End? The spirit in you, how does it feel to hear someone dismissing your experience of God on the basis of being or not being a member of this group or that group? Of not being a Buddhist or some other religion? This is you to us. You ask what have you not answered? The Truth of the Heart. What says your heart? I'll tell you mine, and it embraces you in that Light, regardless of how your mind holds it. It is fully yours as it is mine. I believe you experience it, and in all descriptions, it is not different. I have experienced it as a Christian, and as a non-Christian. And End, in no way can it be said I am against Christ. Whatever he expresses as a sign, that of the Divine, I embrace. How can you not know this, if you listen with your heart instead of the head and theologies of interpretation? A bad tree cannot bear good fruits. By their fruits you shall know them. Either you accept Christ in others, in whatever form that takes, or you reject it in them. But you cannot deny it. Who is against "Christ", End? Who is against God in others???? Not I my friend. It's the Christian who sees it in others and denies it on the basis of their beliefs. To me, this that 'Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". To call that Love in others, the Antichrist. "By their doctrines you shall know them?" True or false? AM, Allow me to ask you this, by what knowledge to you base your experiences off of? What Has God spoken to you that would indicate truth? With all due respect, don't tell me I listen to more to the head than I do the heart. Ridiculous. I look more for a balance between the two, isn't that looking at all levels of self? Isn't that what you and others here have asked me to do? I do find it funny, however, that you declare that Christians who hold to their beliefs cannot experience the Transcendant love of God because of their beliefs. So you would suggest that there is a single truth out there that must be believed upon in order to be accepted? Hmmm, that almost sounds like the theology of Christ... only difference is you don't accept Christ as God. Let me say it again: Know Christ...Know truth; No Christ... NO TRUTH. Let me know when you want to experience the fullness of God, Jesus will always accept you back in His fold when you are ready to repent. Peace, Love, and Soul Larry P.S. - This discussion will never come to a happy median between us. You claim everything but the truth of Christ and I claim nothing but. So where does that leave us?