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Everything posted by chefranden

  1. 1. Seems like the new understanding would be science which does not agree with the old understanding, revelation. 2. The persistent choice to consider old understanding as new understanding is deluded.
  2. Hi, I did here, and I clarified in many follow on posts. There seems to be some confusion regarding what the supernatural is. The supernatural is not the unknown or even the unknowable. We may never be able to mathematically predict what occurred before Planck time in the singularity(therefore unknowable), but that does not make it supernatural. The supernatural, is by definition, outside physics (Physics defines the natural world). More over, if the supernatural existed it may still be able to interact with the natural world, but not be subject to the same form of predictability that the natural world is. For example, in order for a phenomenon to be natural it is necessary and sufficient that it be both detectable and predictable via the laws of physics. A supernatural phenomenon may be detectable, but not predictable. Where is this "outside of physics"? You say it is not the unknown. Is that like in I don't know exactly how my brain produces consciousness*, yet that doesn't mean consciousness is supernatural? Therefore I cannot connect my consciousness to soul or some other sort of supernatural entity. Why would I be concerned over this soul thingy? How does it effect me or mine? Why do I care what happens to it? I do have some interest in preserving myself, but that self that I claim is obviously not something supernatural. And I know that this natural feeling of self can't be preserved beyond a few score years even if the "I" desperately wants to be "I" forever. Tough shit "I". Just what is this supernatural soul thingy and why do "I" want to preserve it? And if "I" have a reason to preserve this soul thingy, how do "I" effect it? The soul thingy must be in this outside place that is something other than physics. As a physical thingy how to "I" effect the soul thingy? You will say believe in Jesus, but that process of believing in Jesus will be some sort of physical process. How does the physical process of believing effect something that is outside of the physical? You have attempted to define the supernatural using a physical attribute. The property of being outside is a physical attribute. Now I suppose you are writing metaphorically. That is you wouldn't think that the supernatural is physically outside of physics. So the only way I can make sense of your definition at this time is to say that you mean that the supernatural has nothing to do with the physical, or put in a more personal perspective my soul has nothing to do with me. For example: I couldn't care for my soul because caring even from a religious perspective involves physical actions. (Matthew 25:31-46) From a religious perspective even faith is a physical action. (James 2:14-24) *My "I" myself. Edit: More questions How does the supernatural divide itself up into separate entities like souls, angels, and gods? Congregation into separate forms seems to be a physical property. Is the Supernatural simply another physical universe with different physical properties with little or no communication with this? It is written the streets of heaven are paved with gold. That seems to be a physical property. It is written that heaven is a cube 15 miles on a side. That seems to be a physical property. It is written that heaven has 12 gates each made of a single pearl and that the walls are made of jasper. Those seem to be physical properties as well. Where do you get this idea the Supernatural is something other than physics?
  3. Yes, I'm aware, that is why I used his position. He is in a sense a hostile witness. He believes Jesus was a real man. No scholar thinks Zeus was real, ergo, the Bible is more historical then greek mythology so any attempt to equate the two is false. Well, I think that Jesus was a real man. However that is as much as one can say about him. You know that Davy Crockett was a real man, but that doesn't mean he kilt him a bar when he was only three. Just because Jesus was a real man doesn't mean his mama was a virgin, that he walked on water, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, or saved you from your sin. You are having difficulty distinguishing history and legend.
  4. Sigh, so pathetic. The typical Christian conflation of God and man. Consider the following from your holy book: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." Let me paraphrase that for you so as you may understand: By God all causes were caused, without God nothing was caused that has been caused. It's true that if a human knows something, like say the sun is a fusion furnace, that doesn't mean the human caused the sun to commit fusion. However if a single creator God knows the sun is a fusion furnace that means he caused the sun to commit fusion. God,if he were real, by definition would be the cause of all causes, just like your good book says. Wiggle as you might and you will, God if he is real did it.
  5. So the universe is something like a short circuit. No wonder it's fucked up. Somebody should fix the insulation on those branes, so it doesn't happen again.
  6. The most important question asked by a human is, "What's for supper?" Any chef knows that for pete sake. If you actually had free will you wouldn't need a savior. You would simply choose not to sin. What's that you say? "You can't choose not to sin!" Then you don't have free will.
  7. That is brilliant. I'm adding this to my signature. With your permission, of course. Ah shucks. permission granted.
  8. What? Jesus hasn't fixed you? Well don't hold your breath. That medicine just doesn't work. I'm 60. My experience is that you don't get rid of pain. The best you can do is reduce it to tolerable levels. But lets say you could make life perfect, via Jesus or ecstasy. Then what? Well you would die of course. No point in making supper if you aren't hungry. No point in going to get that glass of water if you are not thirsty. Pain is life. Misery's the river of the world Misery's the river of the world Misery's the river of the world The higher that the monkey can climb The more he shows his tail Call no man happy till he dies There's no milk at the bottom of the pail Tom Waits
  9. Testimonial is the weakest bit of evidence and is often given in the form of hearsay, like Paul referring to 500 witnesses. Paul says that 500 people of whom we don't even have a list of names of these 500 who witnessed Jesus resurrected. This is hearsay and as evidence is very iffy. Evidence produced by the other three would conclude that people just don't rise from the dead. To be honest it is simply a trivialization of reasoning to suppose that testimony trumps the other three even if the witness is myself. And to be honest testimony is all you have about Jesus and anything he may have done. You don't even have anything written by the man himself, or by his companions making what you do have hearsay. The one leg you have to stand on is patched and shaky.
  10. How do you get what god is? You say god is love and god is good. However, God's biblical actions define him as evil. Evil is as evil does don't you know. As it is written "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?" Genocide and cow murder is not gathered from good gods. You do not like the way God is, thus you pretend he is otherwise.
  11. No, but I might applaud like that time I saw David Copperfield.
  12. My Holy Book same as you. All the reasons your god is real apply to all gods in one way or another. On the other hand all the reasons that the other gods are not real apply to your god as well. So are you claiming to be as right as me or as wrong as me? Yes.
  13. This, of course, raises another thousand questions... You forgot one: If God is omnipresent how does one avoid pissing on him?
  14. I thought I answered it. From the believer's point of view there are no evil belief systems. From the disbeliever's point of view there are only evil belief systems. I can guarantee that few if any Amalekites believed that their belief system was evil and I would venture to guess that they thought the Jew's belief system was evil. And after the Jews got started, they had good evidence that the Jew's belief system was exceedingly evil, for what is more evil than genocide? If anybody should have been rubbed out there it was the Jews for agreeing to do such a horrible thing. By the by, if you read the passage carefully the Amalekites were not rubbed out for being evil, but for being the decedents about 10 generations removed from the Amalekites who resisted some illegal immigrants known as Israelites. In any case it is no longer considered good form to rub out children and babies because of the beliefs of their parents. And what about the cows? Do the cows of evil believers become evil genocide committing devils with sharp teeth?
  15. My Holy Book same as you. All the reasons your god is real apply to all gods in one way or another. On the other hand all the reasons that the other gods are not real apply to your god as well.
  16. [socrates] And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision, -what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them, -will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him? This is sort of what happened to you Kathleen. You came out into the light for a moment, but the glare drove you back into the shadows. I won't say that it is sad. The glare is very uncomfortable. Reality is stark and sharp, while the shadows are soft and hazy. Hazy shadows can mean what ever you want them to mean, and they are already half way to being warm fuzzies. If I have to live with a bear make it a teddy rather than a grizzly.
  17. 1) That Christianity is wrong. 110% 2) That there is no supernatural (if you're a materialist) 100%
  18. I know. Anyone who thinks that anyone is going to heaven, or hell, including themselves, is not being truthful with themselves. Of course you will disagree because you have received the ability to pretend that dying won't kill you without knowing that you are pretending.* It's so cute. *Otherwise known as salvation.
  19. Yes you are. One thing that I've noticed that maybe you haven't is that you use a lot of "maybes" when you talk about God. This makes your faith sound rather iffy. God gives a lot of promises that maybe he keeps and maybe he doesn't depending... Depending on what? Well no one knows. My Holy Brick keeps its promises at about the same rate as God keeps his. Of course you call it Gods timing because that gives you an out when God doesn't come through on the promise. If I started talking about My Holy Brick's timing you'd think I was half a bubble off, and rightly so. However, if you start talking about God's timing I'm supposed to take you seriously. By the way My Holy Brick just gave me a verse for you: "And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?" Maybe you are suppose to start a brothel, maybe?
  20. There probably is a practical side to faith, or rather that faith serves an evolutionary purpose\s. Evolutionary purposes are not necessarily perceived purposes. I'm reading The Faith Instinct: How religion Evolved & Why it Endures, but I'm only on page 21.
  21. Hi and Welcome to the board. Sorry you stumbled into the Lion's Den right off. I hope you get out with all your bits.
  22. chefranden


    Chef, you're not mean. We all have a right to our understandings. I don't believe there is any "stuff"...only processes. It's all consciousness dancing around being you and being me and being trees and being bees, etc... When I said that one can't happen without the other one, I was hinting at this unity. Much the same way that a magnet has different poles but is still one magnet. It's all one process that appears to be separate. This "illusion" makes some people postulate a separate entity. I'm not one of those people. Consciousness = everything: Isn't that just special? I some regard I agree with Watts that the universe is intelligent i.e. that it knows how to get stuff done. But I would disagree that it knows that it knows how to get stuff done. In some sense the universe knows how to make some stuff that knows that it knows, but the universe doesn't know that it knows how to make some stuff that knows that it knows. Apparently this thread is supposed to be about the bits that know that they know. I'm using stuff as a more amorphous term than matter in order to avoid the indivisible BB like bits that may or may not be at the bottom of it all. Stuff is whatever is there in whatever pattern, and whatever it is doing. Maybe physics will find a BB maybe not, but it won't matter. Some of the stuff will be able to know that it knows some things without being able to know other things like what it is.
  23. Asshole, if it wasn't in a book you wouldn't have the first inkling about salvation... You are going to go nuts if you keep trying to pin Abi down. You are trying to collect a cloud as if it were an insect. Abi has fabricated his own salvation* like a found object artist fabricates his art. Abi just happens to use bits and pieces of bible and pop christian theology as his medium. He could have used anything including the Qur'an if he so chose. In fact he does use some extra-christian stuff from time to time. Abi is obviously not a TrueChristian™. Because he doesn't like any of them, he makes his own version of salvation. If I were still a CoC preacher I would assure you that Abi is as bound for hell as you are. Nevertheless, Abi has found salvation*. It is a little odd that he tests his theology on atheists rather than theists. *The ability to pretend that dying won't kill me or otherwise result in a bad outcome without noticing that I'm pretending.
  24. chefranden


    1. I don't mean to be mean, but this seems to lack meaning. Are you saying that matter detects consciousness? If so then consciousness must be something other than matter, something extra. 2. Well actually LNC has a point in accusing we materialist/naturalists of not sticking to the matter so to speak. I freely admit that I am a reductionist, but I refuse to see that label as a pejorative in the sense we are "just" matter. We are just matter, but so what? What's the matter with that? The sun is just fusing hydrogen and not the countenance of God but it still works.
  25. I've given this some more thought. To be honest it mostly wasn't bad, until my faith started leaking away. I can't even blame the church for firing me. This was a Church of Christ and everybody knows the Church of Christ is the OneTrueChurch™. As my faith slipped away liberal heresies started to leak in here and there, and I'm sure I scared them half to death. They hired me to be a bible thumping Lutheran and Catholic saving SOB. I'm sure they missed having sermons on how Catholics would be going strait to hell and such like that. And when I got a lapsed Catholic or Lutheran to join in I didn't rush 'em down to the river to immerse them good an proper. And I let women speak during the assembly -- encouraged them actually. No they were right by their lights to throw me out. The bad bits were mostly between me and God there at the end. These were the bits wherein it became painfully clear that God was ignoring me, or (heaven forbid) was not there at all. If God is real, he did a damn good job of convincing me he isn't. Or maybe he hates Catholics and mouthy women too.
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