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Wertbag

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Wertbag last won the day on September 6

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About Wertbag

  • Rank
    Skeptic
  • Birthday 02/21/1977

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  • Gender
    Male
  • Location
    Auckland, NZ
  • Interests
    MMA, gaming
  • More About Me
    Married father of 2 from New Zealand

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  • Still have any Gods? If so, who or what?
    No

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  1. We can't perceive the curve because we are too close to it. From our limited viewpoint we can only see the horizon in the distance and even from the top of mountains you still only see a flat plain. When a FEer says "can you see a curve? Can you see the curve from a plane? Do you know its curved or are you just repeating what you've been told?" to someone who knows little or nothing about other proof and evidence this can seem a valid point. (Crazy apologist hat on): Day and night are due to the sun being smaller, closer and directional. You don't fall off the disc because the edge is passed the Antarctic ring, all other travel is a circle on the disc. Flat celetial objects: the moon only has a single disc like side that always faces us. The sun is a flat disc when viewed from earth. The stars are points of light not spherical objects. The only spheres we see are the cgi images from NaSa.
  2. We've hit almost every major subject on these forums but I can't remember seeing a discussion on veganism. Cosmik Sceptic turned vegan a few months ago and the subject has come up in a few of his recent YouTube videos, most notably the latest podcast where he interviewed Earthling Ed, a vegan activist. My own contact with vegans had been either from religious types (we have a few hari krishnas working for us and veganism is part of their beliefs) or for diet (allergies or digestive issues) but the idea of vegan for purely moral reasons never really occured to me before. The first advocates I came across were the over the top SJW types, who abused meat eaters, called everyone immoral monsters and appeared to have a real superiority complex. Of course those offensive tactics make people dislike you, turn defensive and not want to engage. So seeing well spoken and deep thinkers like cosmik sceptic and Ed lay out the case without recriminations was quite refreshing. I do find it hard to find what the truth from a health and nutrition standpoint is. Vegans will say you don't need meat and can live fine without it, but then half of them are on vitamin supplements to fill in the gaps, especially regarding iron and B12. Sure you can get iron from spinach but you need a bucket full to equal one steak. I also hear without the meat industry there wouldn't be enough food to go around. It is the industrial scale that allows dense populations like we have to get enough food. I also struggle to see why vegan verse vegetarian. There isn't the same harm when collecting eggs, honey or milk. They do have quite a compelling argument that animal harm is immoral and as both an animal lover and omnivore I can see the cross over. Where do you stand on this? And has your views changed?
  3. People who swear so much that its just a habit that shows their terrible lack of social ability. I was on the bus and listening to these two drop kick teenagers: "Did you go to Fkn Sam's party?" "Fk it was sweet, went Fkn hard all Fkn night and FKn caught up with that guy, whats his Fkn name?" "You mean that Fk Dave? Fkn bald Fk with the Fkn hot girlfriend?" "He kicked that fkn chick to the curb, she was fkn some other dumb fk" It was tragic to listen to, kind of like swearing instead of pausing for a breath. I can imagine they would be the same to their parents and openly said they abused their teachers cos "there's nothing they can fkn do"
  4. I have long enjoyed reading up on crazy conspiracy theories, especially to see how flat earthers will attempt to distort reality to make the world fit a pizza dish. The one thing that seems to be a driving force there is incredulity, and I wonder how much that is also a root of religious grounding? With the FEers you often hear "thats ridiculous", "unbelievable" and "I can't imagine that" when talking about the size, age, speed or mechanics of the universe. It seems to be all that is required for a lot of people to jump to conclusions that sound better to them regardless of counter evidence. "just look around you and you will always see a flat earth. Use a telescope or fly in a plane and you will still just see flat as far as the eye can see". "Here are videos and photos of boats sailing over the curve and disappearing from the bottom up" "That must be wrong because I've already decided the world is flat" I see the same incredulity from Christian apologists. "You think there was nothing and it exploded? Ridiculous", "You think life sprang from a rock? Unbelievable" or "I can't imagine a universe this complex without a controlling being" We have evolved to trust our senses, which on the local scale makes sense. Listen for the rustle of the bushes which might indicate an ambush, look for movement or approaching threats, and smell potential food sources to see if they may be off. It only becomes an issue when the scale of the question is so large that our limited viewpoint cannot encompass the scope. How do you envision the big bang? Evolution over billions of years? The distance to the nearest stars? Our senses tell us the world is flat but our calculations tell us our senses are wrong. Richard Dawkins said it was coming to understand evolution that took him away from Christianity, but not because god was no longer required but because his mind had opened to the beauty and wonder of nature. He stopped relying on his limited human perception and allowed his mind to expand to understand a bigger truth. Being in awe of nature makes you less likely to direct your wonder to the supernatural.
  5. Neb never successfully invaded Egypt, but Egypt also is a great example of why a global flood never happened. Ancient tombs undisturbed for 5000 years or more, nothing moved around by flood waters. If the earths population dropped to 8 people at some point it would have taken thousands of years to recover (or more likely incest would have sterilised our tiny population and extinction would be the result, and of course that would have been the result from Adam and Eve too). So where did the population to build the pyramids come from?
  6. Definitely a feeling of heard it all before. Every apologist, Christian article or AiG newsletter is just the same old rehashed lines over and over. Very hard to get motivated to watch the talk back shows or another debate when you can already guess what will be said and all of the obvious issues with those statements before they are uttered. I remember as a kid going to the public library and looking in the religious section. Dozens of books from every religion but finding a single one that gave an opposing view was like finding a needle in a haystack. Now it is quite the opposite with tons of atheist books, websites, videos and speakers. Just look at the advertising for the books that pops up on this forum, tons of interesting titles of deconversion and anti-Christian literature. I feel like being born now the information and counter-apologetics are so easily found and well stated that I would have been declaring myself an atheist much faster. It is no longer a case of being the black sheep, but instead you can know you are part of a huge group that share your disbelief. I guess its just a case of what's left to say?
  7. I've just finished season 3 and it did get pretty weird near the end. It was like all of the characters had a complete reversal. Lucifer went from a self confident playboy to a whiny love struck puppy, Cain went from a bad ass underworld crime boss to a whiny love struck puppy. Decker went from a hard nosed homicide detective to instantly accepting a marriage proposal from a guy she had just broken up with. Charlotte changed from a hard as nails lawyer to a whiny crime breaking angel assistant. Maze became emotional, Linda became stupid, Amenidel learnt that everything he had been doing was a waste of time and irrelevant. Felt really jarring, the sudden out of character plots. I can see why the ratings took a hit and it got cancelled, only to be saved and given a chance to end properly. Season 4 has started to a much better pace with Deckers confusion and the church getting involved.
  8. I've heard it said that you can't have good without evil, the very binary thought that is often said is required for comparison (light/dark, good/evil, truth/lie). Some Christians will use this as an explanation of why evil exists (for a good god to exist there must be evil to compare against) but that just leaves me thinking what about heaven? If you are going to claim you can't have good without evil, and then in the next breath say heaven is perfectly good, then there is an obvious contradiction. It also shows our natural inclination to use binary thinking for all situations. It used to be fight or flight, now it has changed to fight, flight or freeze when it became obvious the binary option didn't fit many situations. I think this is a major gap that we fall into, the lack of understanding of either a third state or even a range of possibilities. Even good and evil, when looked at from a high level, should have a third neutral state. Imagine I'm sitting on a chair, its peaceful and quiet but nothing is happening. In this state I'm neither good nor evil. Then my wife walks in and gives me a hug. With no knowledge of evil I can see say that action was good, in that it has a positive effect on my life and my happiness. Likewise if she walked in and slapped me, I can say that hurt, made me sad/angry, and was a negative event. I don't need to comprehend the other extreme in order for a single event to not be obviously positive or negative. Of course you can take that a step further in saying what are the degrees of good and evil? Murder is evil, so multiple murder is really evil? Genocide is massively evil? You have to expand the very terms used because they are so limited in their own meaning that it becomes unclear. The binary terms are used to cover such a huge range of events that they become meaningless. God is all-good, and yet he is willing to kill and commit genocide, so does that mean the action is now good because He did it? Our justice system is built around the variety of crimes and making the punishment fit the crime. We understand that crimes come in a vast array of evil, from littering to mass murder, so understand it is morally right to have a equally wide range of punishments. In opposition to this God has a single punishment, hell, which is used for all crimes. A purely binary answer to the variety of crimes, all evil in hell and all pure good in heaven, the very idea of which is horrific, impossible and immoral.
  9. I was watching a YouTube video by the prophet of Zod: https://youtu.be/TAy_JsWEEQY (its a 30min video so I'm not suggesting that anyone watch it unless the topic is of real interest) but I found this sparked several thoughts about things I'd ignored or glossed over in the past. There seems to be a fair few examples of God not having control of the supernatural powers at play. From Eve eating of the tree which could give her powers against gods wishes, to the story of a sick woman being healed by touching Jesus's robe when he wasn't expecting it, to the poor chap being struck dead by the ark of the covenant for trying to protect it. Even the idea that demons can cause bad things to happen in the real world means that hell, gods perfect prison, cannot contain those within. They are free to work against gods will and for all of the worlds history He has been unable to control them. One example I hadn't considered was Samson's hair being cut. The reason he had power was his promise to god to never cut his hair. When his hair was cut by others it still meant Samson never failed his promise. If the power came from god then the hair was only a symbol and god could have left his gift unchanged. But apparently you can trick god out of supporting those devoted to Him. There are stories of wizards with powers not from god and the rule to kill witches which would be irrelevant if they had no real powers. Do all their powers come from demons? Demons that god created? Locked in a hell that god created? Still able to give powers to mortals so they can operate against gods will? Why allow magic to work at all, isn't keeping supernatural powers out of your enemies hands the smart thing to do?
  10. I would be interested to see what the lurker count is like. How many readers do we have that for one reason or another don't feel like posting? Unique IP vs unique poster count...
  11. I've heard it said that a third of Hindus are atheists but it is always hard to get accurate numbers when even how the question is worded can change the response. Two people can be talking about the same cosmic energy, one terms it god while the other refuses to use that word. Both share the same belief but would answer religious questions differently. I dated a Hindu girl for several years and her family seemed to be cultural Hindus only. They learnt the history, dances, attended the festivals and temple services but it all came from a place of belonging to the group, tradition and love of their culture. They didn't appear to hold any belief that the rituals would supernaturally effect the world or that the writings were divinely inspired but her uncle did have a cult like love of Sai Baba, with a shrine setup to a photo of the man. I know it has been found 20-25% of Christians are only in the church because they have to be (especially the younger generation who have no choice), because of tradition or to be part of the group. If this is true across the board of all religions then there are already more atheists than religious in the world.
  12. The main defining feature of a cult is the worship of a single human as in some way divine. Elron Hubbard and Jo Smith being good examples. Hitler and Stalin were revered but not usually considered divinely powered. The Jews followed an immaterial super being rather than a human, but Christians changed this to the worship of a man. Islam did the same with divine powers attributed to Mo. However in both cases they retained the Jewish religion and grew their cult from it. The only differences between the cult of scientology and the cult of Christianity is time and size.
  13. My only word of warning is the merging of the terms Christian with Western. This can lead to a great generalisation where hatred of the western world is started by religion and directed at all of us who are not part of the problem. We have the same goal to reduce and counter religion, so need to remain united against the Abrahamic religions.
  14. Ezekiel 23:20: "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses." No way that happened without divine intervention... Why was god so unhappy when Eve started wearing clothes? Why did He get bent out of shape when Onan refused incest porn? When they say Samson lost his powers cos they cut his hair do they mean he got a Brazilian?
  15. We maybe onto something here... Imagine you are a horny teenager and you are given ultimate power to make a world. You would make the inhabitants sex driven, give them orders to spread and multiply and have a live porn planet for your viewing pleasure! Get bored of the two hotties you made? Invent some different races for porn variety! Maybe mix in a bit of incest porn and mature porn! It all makes sense now!
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