Which God To Believe In

[chefranden]

 

1 simplicity and clarity.

 

1.The bible is very simply written. "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." this was written around 700 years before the "Iliad" yet it is easily understood today.

 

2. It is clear with its messages. A verse by verse comparison with the Vedas will convince the reader of how sharp a contrast there is beween the two books. The bible is unique in its clarity.

 

1. I guess then that you haven't read the whole thing yet -- just the bits they print in the bulliten?

 

2. Then why don't Ezekiel and Paul have the same plan of salvation, and why does Matthew's Jesus agree with Zeke? Why are there so many Christian denominations. There are far fewer Islamic sects which leads me to think that the Koran must be clearer and therefor more likely to be the word of God by this criteria

 

2 confident voice

 

another characteristic of the bible is the obvious confidence with which its writers spoke and wrote. In contrast writers of other holy books often express personal insecurity by interjecting such qualifiers as "i swear this is true" or "I am positive this is right. " Jesus on the other hand is described as teaching "as one who had authority, and not as thier teachers of the law" (mat 7:29) In the Koran we see hundreds of expressions of insecurity such as "By allah, i swear this is true."

 

You haven't read many other holy texts have you. Is this a cut and past job?

 

3 brevity

 

The bible is simple and to the point, especially in the OT genesis account of creation and in the NT style of writing. Of the 1200 days of Jesus's ministry, only about 34 total days are accounted for in the bible. But yet his message is strongly conveyed. this unusaul economy of words is not typical of other religious books. Just the sheer size of the Vedas proves the point and in the Koran, we see numerous examples of unnecessary detail.

I will grant you that the Bible is simplistic in places, like Genesis, but I don't see that as a reason to believe it.

 

4 .

 

Ignored to save bandwith from drivel.

 

5 honesty

 

There is no whitewashing in the bible. Several blimishes and failures of many of the great OT heroes are listed such as Moses and David. Such honesty is proof of the bibles inspiration. If the bible had been solely the product of human effort, these sordid accounts would no doubt be excluded. When assembling the accounts of Mohammed, the compilers chose to include only the best and the wisest of his syaings, and to exclude everything else.

How would you know there is no whitewasing in the bible? You don't know the accounts out side of the bible. As heinous as God's acts are they may be even worse if we knew the details. Any way the Bible shows what a cruel and arbitrary god you worship. I wouldn't include this criteria if I were you.

 

6 Early teachings

 

Moses had unseen wisdom in the writings relating to the fields of hygiene, diet, and quarantine. is it a coincidence that 3200 years ago, a man who knew nothing about bacteria, infection or hygiene instilled practices that is still followed today. These are listed in Numbers and Leviticus. I will elaborate if requested on this subject. otherwise it is to long to get into.

 

Why do you suppose that more ancient people couldn't figure out what made them sick. Are you saying they were more stupid than you? And as supernaturally wise as you suppose Moses to be, he couldn't count the legs of insects or know that bats aren't birds and that Rabbits don't chew their cud. This is another indication that you either haven't read the book, and that this is a cut and paste job, or that you think that we have never read the book.

 

7 shipbuilding my personal favorite.

 

Even in our modern day of marine engineering and oceanographic technology, the basic size ratio of all ships considered to produce maximum seaworthiness is 30x5x3. In Genesis we read a 3200 year old narrative of God given instructions to a man who was building a boat that had to be the epitome of seaworthiness. the dimensions of the boat were 300 x 50 x 30 cubits.

What did Noah do with the poop? How did Sloths get back to South America? How did Egyptian and Chinese civilizations survive the flood?

 

8 historica significance

 

Archaeologist and historians recognize that the bible furnishes tremendous insights into the history of the period in which it was written. Even those records in the Bible thought to be in error (such as the existence of the hittite nation) have been shown by archaeologists to be true. It is not surprising that the official publication of Harvard University Archaeological Studes Department is called The Biblical Archaeologist. In its very interesting monthly reports, it testifies again and again to the accuracy of biblical accounts.

Gee, since Troy is real, Apollo must be real by this critera.

 

9 THE AUTHOR

 

Finally, perhaps the most important reason to choose the bible as the Word of God has to do with its author. When we examine the other religions in the world, we find that all of the responsibility for establishing a relationship with God falls upon the seeker-humanity must reach up to God. There god does not help at all in these religious systems. It is up to each individual to reach the goal, wether it is nervana or brahma or whatever it might be. Notice the contrast in the bible when the angel Gabriel told mary her son would be called Immanuel which means "God with us."

 

side note. these were very brief explanations and there are about 5 more points i did not include due to length. this article is the summation of an entire chapter found in the book "The Source." He states that his readings include the Vedas, Upanishads, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Tripitaka, Avesta, Tao Te Ching, Angas, Upangas, bab, Bahaullah, and even the Book of Mormon.

 

And your point is? According to Ezekiel and Jesus you have the responsibility of your own salvation too. Even if your only responsibility is to believe you still have the responsibility for your own salvation.

[freeday]

mr. grinch: pm sent.

[freeday]

2 confident voice

 

another characteristic of the bible is the obvious confidence with which its writers spoke and wrote. In contrast writers of other holy books often express personal insecurity by interjecting such qualifiers as "i swear this is true" or "I am positive this is right. " Jesus on the other hand is described as teaching "as one who had authority, and not as thier teachers of the law" (mat 7:29) In the Koran we see hundreds of expressions of insecurity such as "By allah, i swear this is true."

 

He didn't interject it throughout the story, but he did prelude his teachings several times by saying "Truly, truly, I say unto you" (or however you translate it). How is this not different than any other writer saying "I swear this to be true"?

 

Besides, I am sure Joe down at the mental hospital has full confidence when he tells you he can talk with cockroaches. Maybe Jesus should have been committed...

 

there must be a difference, i would have to look it up, but i think Jesus taught us not to "swear by things"

 

i have meet people in the state ward that claimed they were Jesus, and swore by it. but i haven't read 4 gospels stating it true.

 

 

>snip<

 

in short, as stated by the law of parity, if God created goodness, it would allow any free will creature to chose the opposite, therefore evil was made as a direct result of the creation of goodness. since evil as a mere concept is powerless, thus it became personified when the free will creature satan CHOOSE to defy God and exist independently of God's objectives.

You are so right, but yet, horribly wrong, IMO.

 

If a person chooses to bad things, does that mean that the ability to do good is gone? Just because one chooses to defy laws, that doesn't mean goodness goes away. You just have to choose it. One cannot ever be apart from the essence that is them. They are just fooling themselves by believing things that are not true (like being separate from God). This belief alone causes the perceived sense of separation. You have heard the saying, "You are what you eat" haven't you? Well, you are also what you believe. I am speaking metaphysically here so, of course, if you believe you are a cow (or eat one), you still won't be no matter how much you believe it to be so. Kind of like believing that there is a physical satan vs a metaphysical one.

 

One can look or they can ignore...but it's still there.

 

Of course, one can choose to exist independently of God's objectives (working against the natural order), but they cannot exist independently of God (life itself). It's a natural process. If I plant a garden of flowers in the middle of the desert and choose to ignore that they need water, will they prosper? This is going against God's laws. And, you won't be damned for breaking them by an authoritative god but you will suffer the consequences...like a dead flower garden.

 

Taking what you said, I would have to say that you understand that there are certain people that are rewarded for following God's laws (I agree...the beautiful flower garden) and there are those that are damned for not doing so (I also agree...the dead flower garden), but this is not something that an outside force exerts on you because you are part of it.

 

God's laws, or the air you breathe and the warmth of the sun, doesn't just apply to certain people. Remember, it rains on the just and the un-just. The un-just are the ones that believe they are separate from everybody else and inflict harm on the ones that believe differently. They are the ones that believe that they are different from others...the elite...the chosen. Ironic isn't it?

 

you bring up a great point, i have always been tuaght that the holy spirit doesn't dwell in you untill you ask it too. i would have to look up to see, unfortunately i don't have the time to right now.

 

since you say you can't live apart from God, does that apply to both our lives on earth, or after, or both.

 

 

exactly, evil was a direct result of the creation of good.

Which means that good and evil didn't exist before it was created. So was God good before he created good?

 

now that is some serous theology, i can't tell you anything about that. just what the bible says about him now. which is subject to our own interpritations. (i beleive he is a good God.)

[freeday]

And Freeday ... You claim to worship ONE GOD....

 

So... and I've brought this up before ... how can anything, anyone, any part of the universe ... exist beyond - outside -apart from this ONENESS you call God?

 

In short - why are you even asking "which God to believe in"? There can only be ONE eternal, infinite, ONENESS...

Can I get an answer anytime soon, Feeday.

i agree with you "there can be only one" as stated in highlander. as far as living apart from God, i answered that in another post. you must have missed it. i will try and find it later.

 

in short, as stated by the law of parity, if God created goodness, it would allow any free will creature to chose the opposite, therefore evil was made as a direct result of the creation of goodness. since evil as a mere concept is powerless, thus it became personified when the free will creature satan CHOOSE to defy God and exist independently of God's objectives.

 

Yes... we have discussed this before. You gave me an answer about free will. I responded to that answer as follows... you never answered:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=190343

Most major world religions connect Ultimate reality with Love, Wisdom, Infinite, Eternal, in all through all and beyond all. Christianity uses some of the following language.

 

God is Love

God is omnipresent

God is omnipotent

We live and move and have our being in Christ

Christ is the Alpha and the Omega (beginning and end)

Christ is eternal - infinite WORD made flesh - before Abraham was I AM

 

OK... back to my statement:

 

 

but if it is truly infinite than - nothing, no-one, is in reality separated from God

To me this statement has nothing to do with free will. The beginning and the end exist. Define it how you want but you live within it, you breathe within it, you move within it, you think within it. It can't be helped, separating yourself from the Alpha and Omega is not physically possible.

 

Now... if by extension... the Alpha and Omega is connected with infinite WISDOM, LOVE, etc... then we can no more be separated from infinite LOVE, WISDOM, etc... than we can physically exist beyond the beginning and the end.

 

Now - there are many who do NOT associate LOVE and WISDOM, etc... with ultimate reality. (Many on this board would gladly be willing to debate me on that one statement alone).

 

And you know what, Freeday. I can't prove my beliefs right and theirs wrong. But, in the end - that isn't what my point is about. My point is simple....

 

If YOU believe God is infinite, Love, Wisdom, infinite Mercy, infinite Grace ..... If YOU believe that Christ is the Alpha and the Omega.... then how can anyone - or anything - exist outside of that. It's either infinite, it's either the Alpha and the Omega - or it's not.

 

This has nothing to do with "free will". It has nothing to do with whether we believe we are a part of the Alpha and Omega - the infinite LOVE. It has nothing to do with whether we can prove it - or not.

 

If GOD is all these things - then there can be no existence outside of GOD - NONE.

 

Whether we acknowledge it, accept it, believe it - is moot.

 

By definition if there is something that is infinite ONENESS than there can be NOTHING else, NOTHING - free no ability to change this. I have the free will to deny that I live in this universe - but that changes nothing. Factually I still exist within this universe - whether I deny it - or not - is moot.

 

Please address this ... how can there be ANYTHING outside of a God which is omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, infinite, ONE?

 

So please answer the question without falling back on "free will".

 

EDIT

__________

By definition if there is something that is infinite ONENESS than there can be NOTHING else, NOTHING - free will has no ability to change this. I have the free will to deny that I live in this universe - but that changes nothing. Factually I still exist within this universe - whether I deny it - or not - is moot.

 

Please address this ... how can there be ANYTHING outside of a God which is omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, infinite, ONE?

 

So please answer the question without falling back on "free will".

 

i think i get what you are saying, is that we are never apart from God secondary to the fact that he is the alpha and omega. and i can agree with you on this one, i think the holy spirit to the day we die, is always inching at our hearts to accept him. i have to go, i have one more thing to say about this. will be back much later tonight.

[Ouroboros]

now that is some serous theology, i can't tell you anything about that. just what the bible says about him now. which is subject to our own interpritations. (i beleive he is a good God.)

But illogical and contradictory? Can he be good before good exists? Like you said, that's serious theology, but should that stop you from trying to understand it or find an answer?

[julian]

Reply to Freeday

 

there must be a difference, i would have to look it up, but i think Jesus taught us not to "swear by things"

 

i have meet people in the state ward that claimed they were Jesus, and swore by it. but i haven't read 4 gospels stating it true.

 

But they were confident, weren't they? That was your point, that since the Bible was confident, it was so much better than the other religions, but using that logic, this Joe is as divine as your Jesus. Secondly, Jesus confidently claimed to be something the same way Joe confidently claims that he talks to cockroaches, so what's the difference?

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

you bring up a great point, i have always been tuaght that the holy spirit doesn't dwell in you untill you ask it too. i would have to look up to see, unfortunately i don't have the time to right now.

 

Good thing the Bible is so clear and concise, or else you might not have the time to look something like that up...........

 

since you say you can't live apart from God, does that apply to both our lives on earth, or after, or both.

 

Christianity says people live apart from "god". Why? Because "god" is supposedly apart from the rest of existence, and to anyone who cares to look at the world, divinity is most decidedly NOT separate from anything. Furthermore, according to Christianity, people are "apart" from "god" simply because they disagree with the Bible.

 

now that is some serous theology, i can't tell you anything about that. just what the bible says about him now. which is subject to our own interpritations. (i beleive he is a good God.)

 

Good thing the Bible is "unique in its clarity", or else we might have to develop our own interpretations......

[NotBlinded]

 

>snip<

 

in short, as stated by the law of parity, if God created goodness, it would allow any free will creature to chose the opposite, therefore evil was made as a direct result of the creation of goodness. since evil as a mere concept is powerless, thus it became personified when the free will creature satan CHOOSE to defy God and exist independently of God's objectives.

You are so right, but yet, horribly wrong, IMO.

 

If a person chooses to bad things, does that mean that the ability to do good is gone? Just because one chooses to defy laws, that doesn't mean goodness goes away. You just have to choose it. One cannot ever be apart from the essence that is them. They are just fooling themselves by believing things that are not true (like being separate from God). This belief alone causes the perceived sense of separation. You have heard the saying, "You are what you eat" haven't you? Well, you are also what you believe. I am speaking metaphysically here so, of course, if you believe you are a cow (or eat one), you still won't be no matter how much you believe it to be so. Kind of like believing that there is a physical satan vs a metaphysical one.

 

One can look or they can ignore...but it's still there.

 

Of course, one can choose to exist independently of God's objectives (working against the natural order), but they cannot exist independently of God (life itself). It's a natural process. If I plant a garden of flowers in the middle of the desert and choose to ignore that they need water, will they prosper? This is going against God's laws. And, you won't be damned for breaking them by an authoritative god but you will suffer the consequences...like a dead flower garden.

 

Taking what you said, I would have to say that you understand that there are certain people that are rewarded for following God's laws (I agree...the beautiful flower garden) and there are those that are damned for not doing so (I also agree...the dead flower garden), but this is not something that an outside force exerts on you because you are part of it.

 

God's laws, or the air you breathe and the warmth of the sun, doesn't just apply to certain people. Remember, it rains on the just and the un-just. The un-just are the ones that believe they are separate from everybody else and inflict harm on the ones that believe differently. They are the ones that believe that they are different from others...the elite...the chosen. Ironic isn't it?

 

you bring up a great point, i have always been tuaght that the holy spirit doesn't dwell in you untill you ask it too. i would have to look up to see, unfortunately i don't have the time to right now.

 

since you say you can't live apart from God, does that apply to both our lives on earth, or after, or both.

Hey...thanks for replying. I know it gets hard answering so many.

 

I don't think you have been taught wrong there, but once again, I think the understanding is incorrect. Maybe it should have read that you won't recognize the Holy Spirit until you ask. The holy spirit can have many names, but it's all the same, IMO and it's not exclusive. "A rose is a rose by any other name." To me, it's not an entity that is just waiting for you to ask it in. It's up to you. It's like air...it's always there, but only noticed when you can't breathe. When you break the hold of what is choking you, you will breathe again (there's a little hint in my metaphor there ).

 

Oh...the afterlife. I have no idea and anybody that tells you they do, is not being honest with themselves and with you. All anybody can do is envision what they desire and try to share their feelings with others. Nobody knows, but it makes for some fun spiritual journeys.

[Open_Minded]

Please address this ... how can there be ANYTHING outside of a God which is omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, infinite, ONE?

 

So please answer the question without falling back on "free will".

i think i get what you are saying, is that we are never apart from God secondary to the fact that he is the alpha and omega. and i can agree with you on this one, i think the holy spirit to the day we die, is always inching at our hearts to accept him. i have to go, i have one more thing to say about this. will be back much later tonight.

 

Thanks Freeday... I look forward to your additional thoughts.

[Lycorth]

Zackly, Zoe.

 

Xians usually don't realize that there are a myriad of spiritual choices out there, and that not everything of a spiritual nature automatically implies their god. But that's a problem most of them have with how their religion is taught; they are raised up from childhood to believe that their religion is the only answer to anything, and that it has no variations or grey areas - their faith is the truth, the whole truth, and the only truth there can ever be.

 

Until Xians learn to examine other people's perspectives, openly and honestly, without assuming a bunch of prejudices about how others think and believe, they will always fail to understand why people make the choices they do, especially in regards to leaving Xianity behind.

[white_raven23]

Wonder if Freeday is ever going to address my post #69.

 

Funny. When you can use the bible itself to contradict their little christian notions....they ignore or "miss your posts" for some reason.

[Lycorth]

Indeed, White Raven. They are very quick to whip out the Babble™ to try and support their belief, but when the Babble™ is cited as evidence for a fallacy or other problem, silence is usually the only answer you get.

 

I guess it's hard to argue with the black and white

[freeday]

I couldn't have said this better. Freeday, check out this topic from before you were here to underscore what Mr. Grinch just said http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=163762

 

i feel sure mr. grinch is right, i will not deny this. i was just pissing in his coolaid. for me i don't need proof that there is a God. it makes sense to me.

Well great then. Why all the apologetics then? You don't need proof to have faith. Who care's if the Bible isn't a book of literal science and history. Your faith isn't based on it, right? Then why do you deny Evolution? On scientific grounds??? This sounds like double-speak.

 

i need proof that there is not a God, before i renounce my religioin.

Why? If you don't need proof there is a God to believe, what is there to disprove?? This is a contradictory statement. Which is it, you believe because of proof and you would need to have that proof discredited to loose faith; or you don't believe based on proofs and so there is no proofs that can be disproved - you simply choose to believe?

 

What you're saying is self-contradictory. Please clarify is you can.

 

its all in how you look at it. i look at my suroundings and what i have learned and think that there has to something else out there.

So you are basing this on knowledge of science, or on an emotional sense that there must be meaning to life?

 

what should our approach on life be, assume there is nothing untill proven otherwise, or something untill proven otherwise.

It's up to you. That's what faith is. There is no tangible evidence of the supernatural in the natural world, so believing in spite of there being no evidence is the very definition of faith. That is a personal choice. I find it's easier to not get tangled in the various tangle of theologies surrounding speculative thoughts about possible supernatural explanations - from Zeus to Jehovah, from Jesus to Krishna. But that's just what works for me. I focus in the natural, you in the supernatural. It's what works for you.

 

Again, you in one breath said you don't need evidence to believe. In which case then this discussion of evidences for the one true faith are completely meaningless. But then in the other you seem to be arguing from evidence and are setting yourself and other non-scientists in direct opposition to the world of real scientists, denying they know how to do science because it disagrees with your beliefs, which are founded on non-scientific evidences of logic and emotion.

 

You are in quite a conundrum here.

 

now i know from learning about you that you believed and then was proven otherwise. what was your defining moment of clarity, that said there is no God. or you could give me the link to your testimony, and i will go read it.

There was no defining moment. It is best described as a gradual realization and acceptance. See here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=136900 It's in 3 parts in the same thread.

 

yes i am in a nonundrum, i roam around confused about 90% of the time, comes with working nights. i guess i do have a double standard, even if buhda himself came to me and told me there was no God, i would laugh at him. but one of the books i read, had some scientific evedence of the creation using what the bible says, it is very interesting, i am planning on doing a write up on it, just haven't organized and cut it down yet.

 

the highlighted part in the red, the second book i am reading focuses more on the ToE. i think that a lot of the ToE is hardly proven, but yet it is still forced on individuals in school as if it is fact. once i am done reading about ToE, we can have some organized debates in the arena if you like.

 

 

in response to Freeday's rip on science:

 

Science Vs. Christianity is a false dictonomy. It's not "scientific materialism" or Christianity. It's not Nihilism or christianity. It's not Atheism or Christianity. There are other options.

 

I repeatedly see christians act like there are only two options. either you believe in THEIR god, or you are a dogmatic materialist. That's just retarded.

 

I see absolutely NO reason to leap from "questions about the scientific views of our origins" to "biblegod did it."

 

It's like when i see creationists debating evolution...like they think somehow if they can disprove evolution it supports their beliefs in biblegod. NO IT DOESN'T. Even if you somehow WON or were "right" about there being some type of creative power behind the universe, you cannot just jump to "see? it MUST be biblegod" That's completely illogical.

 

 

I WAS JUST PICKING WITH MR. GRINCH, i ussually pick in a manner that is sarcastic. i have sent an appology to mr. grinch.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I couldn't have said this better. Freeday, check out this topic from before you were here to underscore what Mr. Grinch just said http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=163762

 

i feel sure mr. grinch is right, i will not deny this. i was just pissing in his coolaid. for me i don't need proof that there is a God. it makes sense to me.

Well great then. Why all the apologetics then? You don't need proof to have faith. Who care's if the Bible isn't a book of literal science and history. Your faith isn't based on it, right? Then why do you deny Evolution? On scientific grounds??? This sounds like double-speak.

 

i need proof that there is not a God, before i renounce my religioin.

Why? If you don't need proof there is a God to believe, what is there to disprove?? This is a contradictory statement. Which is it, you believe because of proof and you would need to have that proof discredited to loose faith; or you don't believe based on proofs and so there is no proofs that can be disproved - you simply choose to believe?

 

What you're saying is self-contradictory. Please clarify is you can.

 

its all in how you look at it. i look at my suroundings and what i have learned and think that there has to something else out there.

So you are basing this on knowledge of science, or on an emotional sense that there must be meaning to life?

 

what should our approach on life be, assume there is nothing untill proven otherwise, or something untill proven otherwise.

It's up to you. That's what faith is. There is no tangible evidence of the supernatural in the natural world, so believing in spite of there being no evidence is the very definition of faith. That is a personal choice. I find it's easier to not get tangled in the various tangle of theologies surrounding speculative thoughts about possible supernatural explanations - from Zeus to Jehovah, from Jesus to Krishna. But that's just what works for me. I focus in the natural, you in the supernatural. It's what works for you.

 

Again, you in one breath said you don't need evidence to believe. In which case then this discussion of evidences for the one true faith are completely meaningless. But then in the other you seem to be arguing from evidence and are setting yourself and other non-scientists in direct opposition to the world of real scientists, denying they know how to do science because it disagrees with your beliefs, which are founded on non-scientific evidences of logic and emotion.

 

You are in quite a conundrum here.

 

now i know from learning about you that you believed and then was proven otherwise. what was your defining moment of clarity, that said there is no God. or you could give me the link to your testimony, and i will go read it.

There was no defining moment. It is best described as a gradual realization and acceptance. See here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=136900 It's in 3 parts in the same thread.

 

yes i am in a nonundrum, i roam around confused about 90% of the time, comes with working nights. i guess i do have a double standard, even if buhda himself came to me and told me there was no God, i would laugh at him. but one of the books i read, had some scientific evedence of the creation using what the bible says, it is very interesting, i am planning on doing a write up on it, just haven't organized and cut it down yet.

 

the highlighted part in the red, the second book i am reading focuses more on the ToE. i think that a lot of the ToE is hardly proven, but yet it is still forced on individuals in school as if it is fact. once i am done reading about ToE, we can have some organized debates in the arena if you like.

 

Freeday, you'll be so much more free if you change your name to "peeday" or even "kneeday". I was personally considering "jamboreeday" as my name, but the spirit of god in me knew that was a stupid idea. "Freeday" is pretty friggin awesome, but the pugilist in me like "meleeday" way better, and the biologist in me just loves "manateeday". These names are all so noble, but they don't hold a candle to...."my cock has a welt that is the result of the mandibles of a fleaday". Until you live in that skin, my friend, nothing you say even has a sound. It's just like a dry heave, after you've been drinking too much truth.

[freeday]

Please address this ... how can there be ANYTHING outside of a God which is omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, infinite, ONE?

 

So please answer the question without falling back on "free will".

i think i get what you are saying, is that we are never apart from God secondary to the fact that he is the alpha and omega. and i can agree with you on this one, i think the holy spirit to the day we die, is always inching at our hearts to accept him. i have to go, i have one more thing to say about this. will be back much later tonight.

 

Thanks Freeday... I look forward to your additional thoughts.

 

so from a pragmatic standpoint, maybe in this world you can n't live apart from God, i think that is a fair statement. but the bible states that "ask and you shall recieve" uses the words such as "free gift." so maybe God is always pressing at us, but doesn't dwell inside us untill we ask. then there is the point of death. which i feel we will join him in heaven, "which i don't think is literally above us," and the people who didn't accept his free gift, will live in a place apart from him, wherever that might be. so in te afterlife, we can be apart from him.

[freeday]

Wonder if Freeday is ever going to address my post #69.

 

Funny. When you can use the bible itself to contradict their little christian notions....they ignore or "miss your posts" for some reason.

 

 

sorry, i have been terribly busy. this is deep so follow me.

 

in hebrew during the Genesis account, two words are used, create and made. both similar, but in the original hebrew, they have very different meaning.

 

CREATE (bara) - to prepare, form, fashion, create to which only applies to a miracle performed by God (basically make something out of nothing)

 

MADE (asah) - to do, make which appplies to man or God, reworking of existing material.

 

if you look in verse 8 "Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the" ground" he didn't create the oportunity for evil, he created the prossess for the tree to grow, but not the tree itself, thus, he created good, evil was its indirect making. the concept of evil is powerless, it would need to be acted upon to be made. satan was the person who induced eve into going to the tree, thus he created evil. if she had never gone to the tree, theoretically there would be no evil.

 

ex. a gun is not evil, but when someone actively uses it to kill someone, then it is evil. only when it is acted upon does it become personified.

 

hope this answers your question.

 

Reply to Freeday

 

there must be a difference, i would have to look it up, but i think Jesus taught us not to "swear by things"

 

i have meet people in the state ward that claimed they were Jesus, and swore by it. but i haven't read 4 gospels stating it true.

 

But they were confident, weren't they? That was your point, that since the Bible was confident, it was so much better than the other religions, but using that logic, this Joe is as divine as your Jesus. Secondly, Jesus confidently claimed to be something the same way Joe confidently claims that he talks to cockroaches, so what's the difference?

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

you bring up a great point, i have always been tuaght that the holy spirit doesn't dwell in you untill you ask it too. i would have to look up to see, unfortunately i don't have the time to right now.

 

Good thing the Bible is so clear and concise, or else you might not have the time to look something like that up...........

 

since you say you can't live apart from God, does that apply to both our lives on earth, or after, or both.

 

Christianity says people live apart from "god". Why? Because "god" is supposedly apart from the rest of existence, and to anyone who cares to look at the world, divinity is most decidedly NOT separate from anything. Furthermore, according to Christianity, people are "apart" from "god" simply because they disagree with the Bible.

 

now that is some serous theology, i can't tell you anything about that. just what the bible says about him now. which is subject to our own interpritations. (i beleive he is a good God.)

 

Good thing the Bible is "unique in its clarity", or else we might have to develop our own interpretations......

 

you caught me with my hand in the cookie jar. i am not a theologin of the bible, if i asked my minister who has a doctorite in this type matter, he could give you a better answer. i will agree on the simplicity on the major stuff though. he makes precisely clear on how to get to heaven. and i guess that is what counts.

[Astreja]

Freeday, that's an interesting perspective on the Problem of Evil. I'm reminded somewhat of the Daodejing (Tao te Ching):

 

2. 1. All in the world know the beauty of the beautiful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what ugliness is; they all know the skill of the skilful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what the want of skill is.

 

2. So it is that existence and non-existence give birth the one to (the idea of) the other; that difficulty and ease produce the one (the idea of) the other; that length and shortness fashion out the one the figure of the other; that (the ideas of) height and lowness arise from the contrast of the one with the other; that the musical notes and tones become harmonious through the relation of one with another; and that being before and behind give the idea of one following another.

So I can see a situation whereby one creates the definition of "evil" simultaneously with creating the definition of "good".

 

And I agree that evil is a mode of action rather than an entity in its own right.

[white_raven23]

if you look in verse 8 "Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the" ground" he didn't create the oportunity for evil, he created the prossess for the tree to grow, but not the tree itself, thus, he created good, evil was its indirect making. the concept of evil is powerless, it would need to be acted upon to be made. satan was the person who induced eve into going to the tree, thus he created evil. if she had never gone to the tree, theoretically there would be no evil.

 

ex. a gun is not evil, but when someone actively uses it to kill someone, then it is evil. only when it is acted upon does it become personified.

 

hope this answers your question.

 

 

You called this "deep"??? Who do you think you are talking to....an indoctrinated Sunday School teen?

 

About your comparison of evil to a gun...... If the person I'm killing with that gun happens to be 250 lbs. guy in the act of raping someone dear to me..... according to YOUR way of thinking, it would be an act of evil to shoot that fucker.

 

I suppose the rape victim needs the trial and tribulation to have a chance to "turn the other cheek" and forgive this slavering rapist for the act.

 

You call evil the benign waste product of good. That only becomes malignant when.....what? When someone exercises "free-will"?

 

I'm sorry. NO. This way of thinking encourages everyone to be a poor helpless sheepy victim, while you console them that they were, after all, the "bigger" person, and despite their bleeding twat or asshole, and their inability to look anyone in the eye for the next decade, or the money spend on counseling and anti-depressants....despite alll that....you want that cognitive dissonace to set in convincing that person that they truly "won".

 

Uh-Uh. There is no "bigger" person. There is not beaten but still smilin' "winner".

 

There is who did the fucking, and who got fucked. That's it. And I'm not about to wait on singing angels or some shit to tell me which role I'm supposed to take this time, or the next time, or the time after that when it comes to it.

 

All "evil" is is a judgement call.....subject to the OPINION of the person viewing a situation. Not the bible....the person. Declaring something "evil" is a "cover-your-ass-with-my-societies-morality" way of saying you dislike or disapprove of something.

[freeday]

Freeday, that's an interesting perspective on the Problem of Evil. I'm reminded somewhat of the Daodejing (Tao te Ching):

 

2. 1. All in the world know the beauty of the beautiful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what ugliness is; they all know the skill of the skilful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what the want of skill is.

 

2. So it is that existence and non-existence give birth the one to (the idea of) the other; that difficulty and ease produce the one (the idea of) the other; that length and shortness fashion out the one the figure of the other; that (the ideas of) height and lowness arise from the contrast of the one with the other; that the musical notes and tones become harmonious through the relation of one with another; and that being before and behind give the idea of one following another.

So I can see a situation whereby one creates the definition of "evil" simultaneously with creating the definition of "good".

 

And I agree that evil is a mode of action rather than an entity in its own right.

 

that sounds the same to me too, i think mine was a little easier to understand. but it is just an interpritation, nothing more.

[Open_Minded]

so from a pragmatic standpoint, maybe in this world you can n't live apart from God, i think that is a fair statement. but the bible states that "ask and you shall recieve" uses the words such as "free gift." so maybe God is always pressing at us, but doesn't dwell inside us untill we ask. then there is the point of death. which i feel we will join him in heaven, "which i don't think is literally above us," and the people who didn't accept his free gift, will live in a place apart from him, wherever that might be. so in te afterlife, we can be apart from him.

 

That's too easy and convienent, Freeday. And - worse yet - it doesn't even make logical sense. By your own (and the churches) definition of Christ, He is the Alpha and Omega.

 

Please tell me - and everyone else on this board - how someone can "live in a place apart" from the beginning and the end?

 

Really think through the infinite repercussions of an answer you give, Freeday. Because - if there is ANY PLACE apart from God, then all the characteristics you usually assign to God come into question.

• Infinite, eternal Love
  
• Omnipotent (All Powerful - Power over Everything)
  
• Omniscient (All Knowing - Knowing Everything)
  
• Oh and I'm saving my favorite until last - omnipresent - PRESENT EVERYWHERE
  

So.. Freeday ... your choices boil down to the following:

 

1. There is a "place apart" from the Alpha and Omega - and this means God is NOT

1. Infinite, eternal Love
   
2. Omnipotent (All Powerful - Power over Everything)
   
3. Omniscient (All Knowing - Knowing Everything)
   
4. Oh and I'm saving my favorite until last - omnipresent - PRESENT EVERYWHERE
   

or

 

1. There is NO "place apart" from the Alpha and Omega - and this means God IS

1. Infinite, eternal Love
   
2. Omnipotent (All Powerful - Power over Everything)
   
3. Omniscient (All Knowing - Knowing Everything)
   
4. Oh and I'm saving my favorite until last - omnipresent - PRESENT EVERYWHERE
   

 

What is Freeday - IS GOD TRULY ALL THESE THINGS - OR NOT?

 

 

 

 

And whatever answer you give to this question - please tell me - and everyone else on this board - how someone can "live in a place apart" from the beginning and the end?

[Young Mother Atheist]

 

What law of parity? If God is Good then he didn't create it.

 

exactly, evil was a direct result of the creation of good. an inadvertant creation, resulting from the chioce of free will. satan seized the opportunity of evil, thus creating it. law of parity, God is the good, satan is the bad. not sure who the ugly is, maybe old clint can tell us.

 

Freeday, if this is true, this implies there is something out of God's control. Also, it isn't true Biblically because the Bible clearly states that Jesus created hell and sent the angels there.

(there is another thread around here that talks about it...anyone know which one? I can't remember)

 

Don't get hung up in doctrine. You start getting pretty far away from what the Bible actually says.

 

I'm quoting my own post again because it has been skimmed over and the same topic is still being discussed. Please reread, Freeday.

[Antlerman]

yes i am in a nonundrum, i roam around confused about 90% of the time, comes with working nights. i guess i do have a double standard, even if buhda himself came to me and told me there was no God, i would laugh at him. but one of the books i read, had some scientific evedence of the creation using what the bible says, it is very interesting, i am planning on doing a write up on it, just haven't organized and cut it down yet.

 

the highlighted part in the red, the second book i am reading focuses more on the ToE. i think that a lot of the ToE is hardly proven, but yet it is still forced on individuals in school as if it is fact. once i am done reading about ToE, we can have some organized debates in the arena if you like.

Actually, Buddha was atheist. He rejected the Hindu ideas of reincarnation etc. Later cultural adoption of gods into Buddhism as it spread in the East is what became called Mahayana Buddhism. Theravada Buddhism is a religion without deities.

 

Highlighted above in blue: Again, "scientific evidence" is NOT scientific evidence if it has FAILED PEER REVIEW. It is pseudo-science. It can only be considered credible scientific evidence if it has followed the rules of the Scientific Method. Creationists do not follow the rules of the Scientific Method and therefore it is not scientific evidence. It only "sounds" scientific = pseudo-science. You cannot use that term "scientific evidence" without it being validated by other scientists. It violates the rules of doing science - just like claiming thoughts originate in someone's liver.

 

Edit: Or a more pertainant example: Claiming someone with clinical schizophrenia has a demon! That's where we can go without following the rules of credible science. Same thing with Creation "Science".

[NotBlinded]

so from a pragmatic standpoint, maybe in this world you can n't live apart from God, i think that is a fair statement. but the bible states that "ask and you shall recieve" uses the words such as "free gift." so maybe God is always pressing at us, but doesn't dwell inside us untill we ask. then there is the point of death. which i feel we will join him in heaven, "which i don't think is literally above us," and the people who didn't accept his free gift, will live in a place apart from him, wherever that might be. so in te afterlife, we can be apart from him.

 

That's too easy and convienent, Freeday. And - worse yet - it doesn't even make logical sense. By your own (and the churches) definition of Christ, He is the Alpha and Omega.

 

Please tell me - and everyone else on this board - how someone can "live in a place apart" from the beginning and the end?

 

Really think through the infinite repercussions of an answer you give, Freeday. Because - if there is ANY PLACE apart from God, then all the characteristics you usually assign to God come into question.

• Infinite, eternal Love
  
• Omnipotent (All Powerful - Power over Everything)
  
• Omniscient (All Knowing - Knowing Everything)
  
• Oh and I'm saving my favorite until last - omnipresent - PRESENT EVERYWHERE
  

So.. Freeday ... your choices boil down to the following:

 

1. There is a "place apart" from the Alpha and Omega - and this means God is NOT

1. Infinite, eternal Love
   
2. Omnipotent (All Powerful - Power over Everything)
   
3. Omniscient (All Knowing - Knowing Everything)
   
4. Oh and I'm saving my favorite until last - omnipresent - PRESENT EVERYWHERE
   

or

 

1. There is NO "place apart" from the Alpha and Omega - and this means God IS

1. Infinite, eternal Love
   
2. Omnipotent (All Powerful - Power over Everything)
   
3. Omniscient (All Knowing - Knowing Everything)
   
4. Oh and I'm saving my favorite until last - omnipresent - PRESENT EVERYWHERE
   

 

What is Freeday - IS GOD TRULY ALL THESE THINGS - OR NOT?

 

 

 

 

And whatever answer you give to this question - please tell me - and everyone else on this board - how someone can "live in a place apart" from the beginning and the end?

O_M,

 

I know I sent you directions to club x-o-nonfinity. You go down past the very last galaxy on the right and swing around to your left. Go 10 billion miles and look down.

 

No wonder you didn't show up last Saturday night!

 

 

 

 

I'm in a weird mood again.

[Kuroikaze]

 

Actually, Buddha was atheist. He rejected the Hindu ideas of reincarnation etc. Later cultural adoption of gods into Buddhism as it spread in the East is what became called Mahayana Buddhism. Theravada Buddhism is a religion without deities.

 

 

 

Just a slight correction, Buddha wasn't exactly an athiest, rather When people asked him if he believed in God he simply refused to answer them.

 

It seems to me that Buddha's point was not that one should believe or disbelieve in god, but that to even ask the question "Does God exist?" is to be asking the wrong question all together.

 

As I'm sure you know, the central philosophy in Buddhism is to end human suffering, and Buddha simply didn't see how debating the existance of god would help this goal. Its unclear if he actually believed in any gods or not...but likely he was simply agnostic about it as it wasn't a question he thought people should be asking.

[NotBlinded]

if you look in verse 8 "Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the" ground" he didn't create the oportunity for evil, he created the prossess for the tree to grow, but not the tree itself, thus, he created good, evil was its indirect making. the concept of evil is powerless, it would need to be acted upon to be made. satan was the person who induced eve into going to the tree, thus he created evil. if she had never gone to the tree, theoretically there would be no evil.

 

ex. a gun is not evil, but when someone actively uses it to kill someone, then it is evil. only when it is acted upon does it become personified.

IMO, God didn't create the process for the tree to grow, God is the process. You can't put God outside of anything because that leaves something that is beyond and outside of God which starts the process of questioning about who created god.

 

Satan is referred to as the Prince of Lies. They believed the lies that Satan was speaking. This tells me the moral is... the only, and original, evil/sin is believing in lies. All others are secondary to this belief. It's not what the church would have you believe...do what you're told or be punished by God (that's a lie...don't believe it!). This moral was personified through myth and metaphor in order to get that moral across. When someone believes in a lie, they are fully convinced it is the truth. They have turned away from what is true. Adam and Eve turned away from what was true...God/their god-nature. They wanted to become like gods when they already were (only knowing good). We are tempted all the time to believe in lies and I'm sure there are things that I believe are lies too, but I just don't recognize it. I know my life could be a lot more pleasant if I wasn't afraid of what people thought of me. I know this is true, but I keep holding on to the belief that what they think of me must be true (not so much anymore ). If I believe them and the lies (original sin), then I have turned away from what is my true nature (divine/god/good) and listened to the lies and myself and others close to me pay miserably for it (repercussions from the original sin). Turning away doesn't mean being without it. It just means ignoring it or not knowing that what you believe is a lie (this is where forgiveness comes in). It's still there...I can never be without it...I can only be blinded to it. I can close my eyes, but that doesn't mean that I'm blind.

 

It's like the prodigal son...good was waiting for him when he returned. It never went away...it was always there when he decided to open his eyes. The other son never experienced this thus he was jealous and felt unfairly treated. He believed he should have been rewarded more so than his brother. In this process, he believed the lie that his brother was inferior to him for having wandered. If the story went on, he too would have been celebrated for returning to the truth.

 

Satan didn't create evil. God didn't create evil. Mankind does evil when they believe in lies. Like you said, it must be acted upon. There are many well-meaning, God-fearing people of the world that will kill mercilessly because they believe the lie that their beliefs are superior to others. They set themselves above other people. That is why, IMO, Jesus said, "Forgive them for they know not what they do." They believed they were superior to him...they believed in lies, but didn't realize it.

 

All one needs to do is to be inclusive in their beliefs. This would be a huge progression for mankind and all other kinds.

[Open_Minded]

...What is Freeday - IS GOD TRULY ALL THESE THINGS - OR NOT?

 

And whatever answer you give to this question - please tell me - and everyone else on this board - how someone can "live in a place apart" from the beginning and the end?

O_M,

 

I know I sent you directions to club x-o-nonfinity. You go down past the very last galaxy on the right and swing around to your left. Go 10 billion miles and look down.

 

No wonder you didn't show up last Saturday night!

 

 

 

 

I'm in a weird mood again.

 

 

OK ... THAT was just too much ... thanks, NotBlinded

 

ILWYT