Which God To Believe In

[mmccaskill]

Jesus said it was a place where there would be great "weeping and gnashing of teeth". It's where your "worm does not die". It's "everlasting fire". What's the confusion?

 

This world is a place without god's mercy, oh freeday. Who then shoulkd be afraid of hell?

 

this is your own opinion. i am more fearfull of the Lord than of hell.

Which is part of the problem. One shouldn't have to fear an all-loving god. Until you understand this, you will remain trapped.

[Vigile]

ok hans, my buddy said nowhere in the bible does it say hell is a place apart from God, it is a place without God's mercy.

 

If that's the case then it makes god the asshole among assholes. On what plane of existance is it ok in your world to forever withdraw mercy from those in need especially when you have the capacity to come to their aid? You christians are warped.

[scitsofreaky]

ok hans, my buddy said nowhere in the bible does it say hell is a place apart from God, it is a place without God's mercy.

Did you not read this:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (New International Version)

9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power;

Looks like you need another friend.

[white_raven23]

Hey Freeday!

 

Wanna go back a bit and address Chefraden and Han Solo's posts regarding the geneologies seeing as they both clearly know a lot more about the subject than whatever that pro-christian biased asshole wrote in whatever book you read that gave you the comfortable but WRONG idea that one of the geneologies had something to do with Mary?

 

So your basis for belief it appears is.....

 

Do I believe it?

Did it get published?

 

Then it must be true!!

 

[Guest Mr. XC]

Jesus said it was a place where there would be great "weeping and gnashing of teeth". It's where your "worm does not die". It's "everlasting fire". What's the confusion?

 

This world is a place without god's mercy, oh freeday. Who then shoulkd be afraid of hell?

 

this is your own opinion. i am more fearfull of the Lord than of hell.

When I was a Christian, I understood that the English phrase of "fear of God" meant a deep respect of God. The word fear was chosen due to translation reasons and does not mean that you should be scared of God (although the Christian god is a little scary).

[Ouroboros]

ok hans, my buddy said nowhere in the bible does it say hell is a place apart from God, it is a place without God's mercy.

That's what I thought. But it's a very popular view today that Hell is separated from God. I wonder where that idea came from? Probably from some preacher that wasn't too knowledgable in philosophy or traditional theology.

 

this is your own opinion. i am more fearfull of the Lord than of hell.

Then why do you want to go to Heaven and spend the eternity with the Lord?

[Checkmate]

(Why do I bother? )

 

Freeday, answer this question: Why does your god require YOU to forgive all of YOUR enemies, when your god won't forgive his? (Unless, of course, they "repent" and kiss Hank's ass.)

 

God's "enemies" can't even hurt "him", and yet he has a place of torment reserved for them?

 

Your enemies can hurt you badly, and yet your god commands that you forgive them and pray for them and do good to them. And your enemies don't even have to repent! Yet your god won't do likewise.

 

Talk about "do as I say, and not as I do"!

 

If you would take off your religious blinders, you will see that your religion makes ZERO sense. It is a man-made muddle created to intimidate and scare you. And it has worked splendidly on you.

 

I cannot BELIEVE people are still stupid enough to WANT to swallow this tripe! Especially when it is OBVIOUSLY bogus AND you don't have to! This isn't the Dark Ages. It's the 21st fucking century! No one has a sword to your throat, nor a gun to your head. Reject stupidity and LIVE, dammit!

 

ok hans, my buddy said nowhere in the bible does it say hell is a place apart from God, it is a place without God's mercy.

Did you not read this:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (New International Version)

9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power;

Looks like you need another friend.

Actually, it looks like freeday needs to read his bible, do his own thinking and stop relying upon the thoughts and works of other people.

[Ouroboros]

Regarding 2 Thess 1:9, the word "presence" (Prosopon) could be interpreted a bit different. It only refers to someones "face" or "outward appearance", so the omnipresence of a "spirit" could still be valid.

[Guest Mr. XC]

Regarding 2 Thess 1:9, the word "presence" (Prosopon) could be interpreted a bit different. It only refers to someones "face" or "outward appearance", so the omnipresence of a "spirit" could still be valid.

So I am wondering, why does God have a face or outward appearance? If you are everything, what is outward? Maybe God has an inward face. I would hate to be looking at the inside of my own ass! I do not see Him in this world. O crap, we are already in hell!

[Ouroboros]

I think it means that Jesus is the embodiment of God, and the OT talks about God's face etc.

 

You know, it's all fantasy, so don't take my words as defense for the religion or theology, but I'm being picky about a couple of things lately. I find it very easy (personally) in debate to interpret the bible verses so they fit me, while the religious person interpret them to fit him. But I've become more serious about interpreting the verses in a sensible way. I don't want to put my own spin only to make my argument, because then my "anti-preaching" is just as insincere and dishonest as a fundamentalist. And I don't want to become a new fundamentalist, but on the other side of the fence.

 

If the word Presence can be interpreted as the presence of a body, while the omnipresence idea is that God is present in spirit. And Christianity have a dualistic (or pluralistic) view of body/soul/spirit, then that verse doesn't have to be a proof that Hell is void of God's spiritual presence. That's all I'm saying. It only say that God won't be personally in body in Hell.

[trashy]

For example, consider how the nineteenth century critics challenged the accuracy of the biblical record concerning the Hittites, the Horites of Sargon II, and Sodom and Gomorrah. Critics condemned the biblical record as myth until archaeological excavations completely authenticated the biblical record. One Egyptian tablet actually recorded a fierce battle between Ramses II and the Hittites at Kadesh on the Orontes River. The Bible proved accurate; the critics proved false.

I've Googled this supposed Hittite issue till I can't see straight, but I still can't find any reference to any 19th century critics who challenged the Bible's accuracy based on the Hittites. Got a link or reference?

 

I haven't found any evidence that Sodom and Gomorrah have been located either. Lots of claims, no consensus.

 

While you're at it, you might want to ponder the fact that while archaeologists can account for 3-4 distinct nomadic groups wandering around the Sinai peninsula there is no evidence whatsoever of the approximately 2,000,000 Hebrews who supposedly wandered all over that area for forty years.

[Guest Mr. XC]

You know, it's all fantasy, so don't take my words as defense for the religion or theology, but I'm being picky about a couple of things lately. I find it very easy (personally) in debate to interpret the bible verses so they fit me, while the religious person interpret them to fit him. But I've become more serious about interpreting the verses in a sensible way. I don't want to put my own spin only to make my argument, because then my "anti-preaching" is just as insincere and dishonest as a fundamentalist. And I don't want to become a new fundamentalist, but on the other side of the fence.

I agree. My post was a bit on the sarcastic side and I apologize if I sounded mocking towards you. I applaud your efforts at using reasonable interpretations. I should strive to do that as well.

If the word Presence can be interpreted as the presence of a body, while the omnipresence idea is that God is present in spirit. And Christianity have a dualistic (or pluralistic) view of body/soul/spirit, then that verse doesn't have to be a proof that Hell is void of God's spiritual presence. That's all I'm saying. It only say that God won't be personally in body in Hell.

Fantasy that tries to pass itself off as reality is difficult, if not impossible to interpret into something that makes sense. Being all powerful, all knowing, and everything while being dualistic creates many problems.

[Ouroboros]

Fantasy that tries to pass itself off as reality is difficult, if not impossible to interpret into something that makes sense. Being all powerful, all knowing, and everything while being dualistic creates many problems.

Everything is possible with some imagination!

 

That's why apologetics can explain everything in the Bible. Just use some imagination and one can get around any problem.

 

--edit--

 

I realized, next time a Christian claims "Hell is a separation from God", then I'll ask them to explain Ps 23.

[Gaura]

Let's just throw a religion out there--- ah--- wicca, one that usually drives the fundies nuts to no end.

 

1. Simplicity and clarity. (also Brevity)

 

Hrm... well, aside from the fact that the Rede is embedded into a long poem, it really doesn't get too much shorter-- or clearer-- than "an it harm none, do as ye will." Even the entire Book of Shadows within most trads is shorter than the Bible-- part of the task of a new Witch in classical Wicca is to write out the whole thing in one's own hand--and that should rightly be regarded as not only devoitional material but also a lot of instructions on how to conduct rituals.

 

Frankly, the Bible is neither simple nor clear. There are huge errors in the Bible, which is really only to be expected in a script that has been recopied for so many centuries.

 

2. Confidence of Voice

 

The Goddess seems pretty confident in saying "I require aught (nothing) of sacrifice..." in the Charge of the Goddess. Most of the Old Religions have some script or book and much of that is usually in a confident voice. I don't hear too much trembling in the Rune poems for example, although I do admit that Varokhar and others here have probably studied those more closely.

 

I hear almost a desperation in the voice of especially the OT writers, as if they are afraid they will be blasted by YHWH if they write about him badly.

 

4. Fufilled Prophecy.

 

There is a whole branch of study-- divination-- that is undertaken by most Pagans in the course of their study. While we do not claim perfection, we do try. There are some people who base their entire lives doing this.

 

In contrast, I see the Bible prophets speaking only rarely. Its also a debate as to whether it all came completely true.

 

5. Honesty

 

One of the old Ardanes (wiccan law) states that "Be ever your word like iron, lest ye lose all surety before the Old Gods" We have to be honest and true to our word, or else.

\

I think I could also argue that to be completely honest, the Christians need to come up for explanations as to the obvious flaws and contradictions in the Bible.

 

6. Early Teaching

 

Pagan herbalists did an incredible job of curing people for centuries using only the plants they lived near. Interestingly, many of these, in synthetic form, made their way into the pharmacy of modern times. Willow bark and foxgloves are most famous.

 

It's an interesting contrast to note that when the Church took over the attempt to heal, they had to resort to really bad technology such as leeches. (ewww) and it can be argued that medicine went into a tailspin for centuries until more enlightened and scientific minds took over

 

7.Shipbuilding.

 

Lets see-- Viking longships, Polynesian outriggers, Native American canoes, all were created by various Pagan cultures, all were very seaworthy. The Polynesian one is also interesting because the hunas developed a whole magick system of seafaring. The Israeli ship was...?

 

8. Historical significance

 

Admittedly Wicca cannot compete one this point. However, I would not be surprised to find historically accurate detail in older Druidic and Asatruar texts.

 

9. The Author

 

You're assuming God wrote the Bible. The reality is that people wrote the Bible, as the did the Eddas, and every other sacred text.

 

 

The take home lesson-- don't put too much stock in the Bible says x or the Vedas say y, or the Sagas say z. Seems like a lot of mystics out there go beyond what the text says to find inspiration. Perhaps a mystic draws impiration directly from the Source-- Spirit? I challenge you, go beyond the Bible. Do some meditation. get some authenic inspiration.

[Guest Mr. XC]

6. Early Teaching

 

Pagan herbalists did an incredible job of curing people for centuries using only the plants they lived near. Interestingly, many of these, in synthetic form, made their way into the pharmacy of modern times. Willow bark and foxgloves are most famous.

 

It's an interesting contrast to note that when the Church took over the attempt to heal, they had to resort to really bad technology such as leeches. (ewww) and it can be argued that medicine went into a tailspin for centuries until more enlightened and scientific minds took over

This is what bugs me. Before Christian influence took over, there were lots of knowledge about the healing properties of various plants. Since Christianity wrecked this, we now have to pay large sums of money for drugs with all sorts of side effects.

[Astreja]

8. Historical significance

 

Admittedly Wicca cannot compete one this point. However, I would not be surprised to find historically accurate detail in older Druidic and Asatruar texts.

I'll give you one example. Atlakviða (The Lay of Atli) is based upon Attila the Hun.