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Goodbye Jesus

The Specious Love Of God


Checkmate

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i will agree with you that life isn't fair. have seen it to many times. but with my beliefs, as stupid as you may think they are, i feel that everything happens for a reason. good or bad. i am content with the fact that God is far superior in his knowledge than i am. i can not see the whole picture, as where he can. the only thing i will differ on you would be that i don't find my belief to be burdensome. i don't see it as the emotional wringer that you suggest it is. i feel it has made me a better person.

 

This statement, while noble in christian circles, is just pure stupidity. You are so willing to give your god the benefit of the doubt that you refuse to even question absurdity. This is just crazy. Ebola turns an African child to mush in a matter of days, well, god knows better than I. Conjoined twins are born and one twin drains the lifeblood of the other twin - god must have a plan. A kitten falls down a dry well and starves to death - god must be punishing the mama cat.

 

Why is it that you cannot see that this logic can be applied to litterally anything? The Totem is wiser than I, therefore there must be a reason it didn't rain this spring. My daughter bled to death because I didn't get her medical attention. The higher power must have had a higher purpose; maybe it's testing me.

 

That events in the world are purely random is plainly obvious but you christians try and cram everything into a tight little world where god is in control of everything. When it obviously isn't so you claim "his ways are higher than our ways, who are we to question why?" This is so utterly irrational that it makes you guys look sillier than children who still believe in Santa because you are actually adults who still believe in the equivelent of Santa.

 

 

 

How can this possibly make you a better person?

 

Christian: "well alls I knows is I ain't god"

Atheist: "Your faith is just a mask for your ignorance."

 

i understand where you are coming from, got a friend that was 37, hydroplaned, wrecked head on killing herself and a 16 yr old highschool student. this was 2 days ago. it breaks my heart to hear something like that. stuff like this happens all the time. should we blame God for all the wrongs in our lives. God didn't intentionally cause the car to wreck. did he know it was going to happen. yes. could he have stopped it. yes. why he didn't. i can not answer you. we are humans, we are meant to die. we never know how and when. how can we blame God for an untimely death. it was us that created the cars, it is us that drives them.

 

one thing i will say, whenever tradgity strikes, people gather and pray. I have personally seen dozens of people take their final breath in this world. and most of the time, family is present and praying. it is truely a humbling experience. it gives us a unique insight to our own impending death. it reminds us that we are only here a small portion of time. it reminds us of our need for Jesus.

 

God doesn't promise christians life will be easy and without heartache. he promises us a light at the end of the tunnel. a place that is better than anything we can imagine. Heaven!

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i will agree with you that life isn't fair. have seen it to many times. but with my beliefs, as stupid as you may think they are, i feel that everything happens for a reason. good or bad. i am content with the fact that God is far superior in his knowledge than i am. i can not see the whole picture, as where he can.

Great... but you still havent explained how the attrocities mentioned in the OP and by Vigile_del_fuoco1 to be love. You admit life isnt fair and that bad things happen. How does that show love? Tsunami in Asia... earthquakes all over the world... hurricanes hitting the US... They all claimed thousands and thousands of people. How does that show God is all loving?

 

To paraphrase, all youve said is "You have to love God or else. I dont know... only God knows." That's a threat and a cop-out. You said you'd take the bait and respond to the challenge, but you still havent answered the questions to the OP.

 

I get your point, surely i could have changed my life without accepting Jesus. but what would have been my motivation. i can't think of a stronger motivation than the love of Christ.

How about love for yourself, love for humanity, love of the earth, and love for all life. Doing it for any other reason makes the intentions less pure and honest. If a person said to me, "Im only friends with you cause my bestfriend is friends with you," i'd say "Go screw yourself." But if that person said, "Im friends with you because of you," then that's a whole different story. Like the x-mas song goes... "Be good for goodness sake."

 

Besides... going back to the main issue at hand... You do it for the love of Jesus, but how is it Jesus loves you? He gives a person a "free gift". Then one chooses not to kiss his ass forever. Jesus then gets mad because that person isnt stoking his ego anymore. Jesus then sends that person to eternal torture in hell. How is that love?

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should we blame God for all the wrongs in our lives. God didn't intentionally cause the car to wreck. did he know it was going to happen.

 

You are missing the point. You shouldn't blame god for the random things that happen in this world, the point is that it just makes no sense to attribute god's presence or will to these occurances in the first place.

 

Let me give you an example:

 

Conjoined twins are born. We know that this is an anomoly of nature. An accident. Naturally we have all the explanation we need.

 

Christians come along and add another step to the equation though. They say that god must have a purpose for the egg to have split in the womb causing this affliction. This is spurious and is not needed. If you approach this situation naturally it makes perfect sense. Given a large number of births, the probabilities allow for some eggs to split in the womb. No wonderment there. It's clean. There is observable evidence to back this up. Case closed.

 

Again, adding a supernatural factor to this equation is completely unecessary and would be wrong minded to do so.

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i will agree with you that life isn't fair. have seen it to many times. but with my beliefs, as stupid as you may think they are, i feel that everything happens for a reason. good or bad. i am content with the fact that God is far superior in his knowledge than i am. i can not see the whole picture, as where he can.

Great... but you still havent explained how the attrocities mentioned in the OP and by Vigile_del_fuoco1 to be love. You admit life isnt fair and that bad things happen. How does that show love? Tsunami in Asia... earthquakes all over the world... hurricanes hitting the US... They all claimed thousands and thousands of people. How does that show God is all loving?

 

To paraphrase, all youve said is "You have to love God or else. I dont know... only God knows." That's a threat and a cop-out. You said you'd take the bait and respond to the challenge, but you still havent answered the questions to the OP.

 

I get your point, surely i could have changed my life without accepting Jesus. but what would have been my motivation. i can't think of a stronger motivation than the love of Christ.

How about love for yourself, love for humanity, love of the earth, and love for all life. Doing it for any other reason makes the intentions less pure and honest. If a person said to me, "Im only friends with you cause my bestfriend is friends with you," i'd say "Go screw yourself." But if that person said, "Im friends with you because of you," then that's a whole different story. Like the x-mas song goes... "Be good for goodness sake."

 

Besides... going back to the main issue at hand... You do it for the love of Jesus, but how is it Jesus loves you? He gives a person a "free gift". Then one chooses not to kiss his ass forever. Jesus then gets mad because that person isnt stoking his ego anymore. Jesus then sends that person to eternal torture in hell. How is that love?

 

We can understand why natural disasters occur. What we do not understand is why God allows them to occur. Why did God allow the tsunami to kill over 225,000 people in Asia? Why did God allow Hurricane Katrina to destroy the homes of hundreds of thousands of people? I do not know. What I do know is this…God is good! There are many amazing miracles, in both instances, that occurred - preventing an even greater loss of life. Natural disasters cause millions of people to reevaluate their priorities in life. Hundreds of millions of dollars in aid is sent to help the people that are suffering. Christian ministries have the opportunity help, minister, counsel, pray - and lead people to saving faith in Christ! God can, and does, bring great good out of a terrible tragedy (Romans 8:28).

 

back to the main issue at hand. you accept his free gift, praise him for a couple of years. then you decide to reject him, make fun of him, tell others how stupid the idea is, live your life without him, and what not. then 2 days before you die, you pray for forgiveness, and it is given. now that is love.

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Look Freeday, here is another way to look at it.

 

Bob swims in the ocean on a day when hundreds of swimmers are at the beach. Bob gets eaten by a shark.

 

Why did Bob get eaten by a shark? Because sharks eat meat, Bob is meat, and Bob was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Why Bob and not someone else? Again, Bob was in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is so simple that a child or a scientist would agree.

 

A christian comes along and tries to add meaning to this situation. Did god send the shark? No? God wouldn't send the shark, he ALLOWED the shark to come and eat Bob. Why would god allow this to happen? His ways are not our ways.

 

Now this added equation becomes problematic on many levels. First, whether or not god sent the shark or allowed it, god was responsible for the shark because if god is by definition all powerful he is in control and allowing is the same as sending. This then makes god a bad guy, but the christian then reasons well, he must have a purpose and since his purposes are always good and I can find no good in this situation it must just mean then that I don't have the capacity to understand his purposes. In essence, this is a non answer that makes no sense.

 

Again, the situation is perfectly explainable if you just look at the basic evidence. When god is added to the equation is when it stops making any sense. Christians are forced to do mental gymnastics, to wonder, to apologize for god when there is no evidence of god's intervention or lack thereof. Christians are faced with the problem that god's supposed attributes contradict the reality of the world (i.e., that random events occur and people and animals sometimes suffer even though god is omnipotent).

 

Your world view just does not add up and you can only answer the fact that it does not add up by claiming I'm just not smart enough to understand god's purpose.

 

Leave god's purpose out of the equation and you will see that it all makes perfect sense.

 

 

What I do know is this…God is good!

 

You cannot KNOW this, you can only think this. This is a self-affirmation that makes you add a spurious equation to random events and causes you to interpret the data incorrectly.

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Look Freeday, here is another way to look at it.

 

Bob swims in the ocean on a day when hundreds of swimmers are at the beach. Bob gets eaten by a shark.

 

Why did Bob get eaten by a shark? Because sharks eat meat, Bob is meat, and Bob was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Why Bob and not someone else? Again, Bob was in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is so simple that a child or a scientist would agree.

 

A christian comes along and tries to add meaning to this situation. Did god send the shark? No? God wouldn't send the shark, he ALLOWED the shark to come and eat Bob. Why would god allow this to happen? His ways are not our ways.

 

Now this added equation becomes problematic on many levels. First, whether or not god sent the shark or allowed it, god was responsible for the shark because if god is by definition all powerful he is in control and allowing is the same as sending. This then makes god a bad guy, but the christian then reasons well, he must have a purpose and since his purposes are always good and I can find no good in this situation it must just mean then that I don't have the capacity to understand his purposes. In essence, this is a non answer that makes no sense.

 

Again, the situation is perfectly explainable if you just look at the basic evidence. When god is added to the equation is when it stops making any sense. Christians are forced to do mental gymnastics, to wonder, to apologize for god when there is no evidence of god's intervention or lack thereof. Christians are faced with the problem that god's supposed attributes contradict the reality of the world (i.e., that random events occur and people and animals sometimes suffer even though god is omnipotent).

 

Your world view just does not add up and you can only answer the fact that it does not add up by claiming I'm just not smart enough to understand god's purpose.

 

Leave god's purpose out of the equation and you will see that it all makes perfect sense.

 

 

What I do know is this…God is good!

 

You cannot KNOW this, you can only think this. This is a self-affirmation that makes you add a spurious equation to random events and causes you to interpret the data incorrectly.

You sum up the xtian position very well. The reality is this kind of faith is just whistling in the dark.

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Look Freeday, here is another way to look at it.

 

Bob swims in the ocean on a day when hundreds of swimmers are at the beach. Bob gets eaten by a shark.

 

Why did Bob get eaten by a shark? Because sharks eat meat, Bob is meat, and Bob was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Why Bob and not someone else? Again, Bob was in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is so simple that a child or a scientist would agree.

 

A christian comes along and tries to add meaning to this situation. Did god send the shark? No? God wouldn't send the shark, he ALLOWED the shark to come and eat Bob. Why would god allow this to happen? His ways are not our ways.

 

Now this added equation becomes problematic on many levels. First, whether or not god sent the shark or allowed it, god was responsible for the shark because if god is by definition all powerful he is in control and allowing is the same as sending. This then makes god a bad guy, but the christian then reasons well, he must have a purpose and since his purposes are always good and I can find no good in this situation it must just mean then that I don't have the capacity to understand his purposes. In essence, this is a non answer that makes no sense.

 

Again, the situation is perfectly explainable if you just look at the basic evidence. When god is added to the equation is when it stops making any sense. Christians are forced to do mental gymnastics, to wonder, to apologize for god when there is no evidence of god's intervention or lack thereof. Christians are faced with the problem that god's supposed attributes contradict the reality of the world (i.e., that random events occur and people and animals sometimes suffer even though god is omnipotent).

 

Your world view just does not add up and you can only answer the fact that it does not add up by claiming I'm just not smart enough to understand god's purpose.

 

Leave god's purpose out of the equation and you will see that it all makes perfect sense.

 

 

What I do know is this…God is good!

 

You cannot KNOW this, you can only think this. This is a self-affirmation that makes you add a spurious equation to random events and causes you to interpret the data incorrectly.

You sum up the xtian position very well. The reality is this kind of faith is just whistling in the dark.

 

i am with you, i think that sometimes people are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. God just knew it was going to happen, nothing more. but sometimes that will not do. what about bob's wife. she is mortified that it happened. and starts questioning God, initially denies, then becomes angry, then grieves, then resolves, finding some peace in the scriptures. she finds that she doesn't have to be a slave to sin and death. that Jesus overcame them both. which gives her reasurance. when this is pointed out, how can you call this belief stupid. with atheism, you can not find any good with death. you just die, and thats it. nothing more, your whole life is now meaningless. other than the fact that your lifeless body will provide some organic matter for bacteria to munch on.

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i am with you, i think that sometimes people are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. God just knew it was going to happen, nothing more.

 

You can't have it both ways. If god is all powerful then he more than knew it would happen, he was in control of it happening. If god is not all powerful then you don't have this problem.

 

If god knew as you say and yet refused to act when he had the power to do so, then that makes him evil in the same way you would be evil to not throw the life preserver in your hand to a man overboard.

 

 

what about bob's wife. she is mortified that it happened. and starts questioning God, initially denies, then becomes angry, then grieves, then resolves, finding some peace in the scriptures. she finds that she doesn't have to be a slave to sin and death. that Jesus overcame them both. which gives her reasurance. when this is pointed out, how can you call this belief stupid.

 

Because it's all conjecture. Besides, why would she believe a god for her salvation if he is the evil guy who was powerful enough to save her husband but didn't? Bringing the gospel message into this conversation is just a red herring that changes the focus of the argument.

 

 

with atheism, you can not find any good with death. you just die, and thats it. nothing more, your whole life is now meaningless. other than the fact that your lifeless body will provide some organic matter for bacteria to munch on.

 

This is what the evidence points toward. You can choose to interpret it as meaningless if you wish. It just is. In any case, I can find a lot more good in just death than I can ever find in a twisted choice between eternal torment or eternal [fill in the blank what you think heaven is]. I have peace, you live in a world where there is an evil terrorist with a gun to your head making you choose his way or the highway. I know, I lived in that world for over 25 years. I don't care what the bible says, that's not peace my friend.

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To be honest, I best love "God" by not believing in him because of the bigger picture of life you describe. If I put God into it as others would portray him as all wise, all knowing, all loving, all caring, all compassionate, leaves me with a picture that is twisted and distorted making me resentful of his selfishness in burning people alive for not accepting extremely unclear expectations, and allowing millions to suffer unbelievable horrors in this world alone because "he has a plan we don't understand".

 

I honor life, and love, and peace by accepting the unfairness of life and NOT holding any expectations of some God who is supposed to care! By rejecting these sorts of beliefs, I find peace in life, love in my heart, and fellowship with humanity. If I feel joy in my heart from this approach, then life is served, and whatever notion of God ANYONE may have is served and honored by my disbelief. The end result of any "faith" should be love being served. The theology of rejection is ANYTHING but that!

 

Are you sure you're not in conflict?

how is God served and honored by your disbelief? you are a very smart individual, just think if you believed God to be the creator, how much of that knowledge could be used to glorify his name. instead, you have indepth conversations of how he doesn't exist. and very convincing ones might i add. i wonder how many guest this site has that may read one of your posts and it puts them even closer to deconverting.

To be clear what I meant by what I said you have to understand that I use “God” as the word that is used to best describe all those ideals that “God” represents in this modern world (as opposed to the old tribal deity stuff that apologists just gloss over anyway). So when I say I best serve “God” through a rejection of “Him”, I am saying I best serve the ideals that God was created by us to represent. I honor those ideals best by rejecting representations of “God” that do NOT best serve those ideals of love, life, and peace. Legalism kills the spirit.

 

If I were to embrace an idea and attach it to that word symbol “God” as used by the fundamentalists, I have dishonored that symbol by staining it with principles that are unspiritual . I see “God” not as a “being”, or a man, or as anything external to man. “God” is an extension of man’s view of himself in relation to the universe, both collectively and individually. God is us.

 

To me “God” is a word symbol of something that does exist because we exist and create it. It has power because we give it power; it has life because we give it life. People and societies create “God” and serve it to give it life, so it can give us life in the forms of hope, dreams, unity, vision, etc. Any image of that God that is foreign to the human spirit of that culture fails to fulfill the role of serving man in a healthy way, and becomes a tyrant in the hands of self-serving, greed driven individuals who co-opt the symbol and twist him for their own ends. In the Bible you see both faces of “God”.

 

On a personal note, I don’t worship the symbol myself or embrace the mythology and use it for myself, but I do recognize its reality and power for good in the lives of those who do not let the symbol become their master, such as the literalists do. There is just too much history and connotations with the word for me to be able to effectively use it for those ends. I was a literalist like you.

 

I am not interested in deconverting people from Christianity who visit this site, but I am interested in opening them up beyond the narrow, constrictive, unhealthy boxes for their symbol of God that cuts them off from life and others. Exclusivist attitudes in religion is anti-spiritual in any belief system. I cannot see how “God”, as the hearts of modern man in a global community is served, or serves us, by being “Nationalistic” with it.

 

I am atheist because (in part), I need to be free from the unhealthy things associated with the “God” symbol. But being atheist does not mean I reject the positive things the symbol of God that we create represents. I have no real mythology to use for that end, other than just calling it Life, or Love, as some “personification” of the ideals for the point of transcendent emphasis. I embrace Life, and isn’t that serving that “God” society creates for themselves?

 

I could never serve the God symbol defined by the literalists. I was a literalist and it was unhealthy for my heart. I could never use my mind in an act of insincerity in order to serve a symbol I find unhealthy. My experience was unhealthy with it. Do you wish me to reconvert to something that was that for me? I should add that you will not be able to find a better interpretation of the Bible that will be more palatable for me, if you are approaching it as literal and infallible. If I approach in non-literally, then I can see "some" valid truths in it. I do feel it is wrong to toss out the baby with all the bathwater that is also there.

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:banghead:

Look dumbass freeday,

 

WE keep telling you that Life is Random. "Shit Happens." Que sera sera. Oh fucking well. Life is a crap shoot, at best.

 

These are sufficient explanations in and of themselves. We are all cool with this. No complaints and no "god".

 

But then comes freeday, the Christian, ready, willing and able to argue that it is his "god's" fault for causing or allowing these vagaries of Life to happen. Rather than accept random chance, YOU, freeday, prefer to assign the blame to your "god". AND you insist on calling him "loving"? AND you claim that this belief brings you peace? The fact that your "god" is a sadistic, divine Puppet Master and "he" pulls your strings at his perverse pleasure, both to "teach" and "guide" you into "truth"? :twitch:

 

Here we are giving you an open door to ABSOLVE your Puppet Master "god" of any wrong-doing, (If he doesn't exist, then how can he be blamed?) and here YOU are steadfastly placing the blame BACK on "him". :eek: You SHOULD be trying to place as much distance between your idea of "god" and Life's cruelties as possible! Not stubbornly shoving him into the jackpot!

 

I stand by my previous utterances. YOU, my dear sir, are a blithering IDIOT! :vent:

 

MAN!, am I ever glad that I'm an atheist! No lobotomies for me! :woohoo:

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christians are very guilty of not being decent. i heard one today talking very prejudicely. it makes me sick to my stomach. but we are all guilty of sin. and that is what the Savior was for. we can not use this as an excuse to dismiss christianity. I get your point, surely i could have changed my life without accepting Jesus. but what would have been my motivation. i can't think of a stronger motivation than the love of Christ.

 

Not only do I mean self-righteous jerks, I also mean that throughout history, Christianity has been guilty of innumerable crimes and offenses to basic dignity. This isn't about sin at all, this is about the fact that Christianity is not more moral than other religions, and if you actually analyze it, you would see that it is quite unethical indeed. Furthermore, we are not sinful, we simply do bad things sometimes, which is far different, and even then what are we going to be "saved" from?

 

Of course you can't think of a stronger motivation, but that is because you grabbed Christianity first; if you were to go into another faith, you would in all likelihood think quite differently.

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To be honest, I best love "God" by not believing in him because of the bigger picture of life you describe. If I put God into it as others would portray him as all wise, all knowing, all loving, all caring, all compassionate, leaves me with a picture that is twisted and distorted making me resentful of his selfishness in burning people alive for not accepting extremely unclear expectations, and allowing millions to suffer unbelievable horrors in this world alone because "he has a plan we don't understand".

 

I honor life, and love, and peace by accepting the unfairness of life and NOT holding any expectations of some God who is supposed to care! By rejecting these sorts of beliefs, I find peace in life, love in my heart, and fellowship with humanity. If I feel joy in my heart from this approach, then life is served, and whatever notion of God ANYONE may have is served and honored by my disbelief. The end result of any "faith" should be love being served. The theology of rejection is ANYTHING but that!

 

Are you sure you're not in conflict?

how is God served and honored by your disbelief? you are a very smart individual, just think if you believed God to be the creator, how much of that knowledge could be used to glorify his name. instead, you have indepth conversations of how he doesn't exist. and very convincing ones might i add. i wonder how many guest this site has that may read one of your posts and it puts them even closer to deconverting.

To be clear what I meant by what I said you have to understand that I use “God” as the word that is used to best describe all those ideals that “God” represents in this modern world (as opposed to the old tribal deity stuff that apologists just gloss over anyway). So when I say I best serve “God” through a rejection of “Him”, I am saying I best serve the ideals that God was created by us to represent. I honor those ideals best by rejecting representations of “God” that do NOT best serve those ideals of love, life, and peace. Legalism kills the spirit.

 

If I were to embrace an idea and attach it to that word symbol “God” as used by the fundamentalists, I have dishonored that symbol by staining it with principles that are unspiritual . I see “God” not as a “being”, or a man, or as anything external to man. “God” is an extension of man’s view of himself in relation to the universe, both collectively and individually. God is us.

 

To me “God” is a word symbol of something that does exist because we exist and create it. It has power because we give it power; it has life because we give it life. People and societies create “God” and serve it to give it life, so it can give us life in the forms of hope, dreams, unity, vision, etc. Any image of that God that is foreign to the human spirit of that culture fails to fulfill the role of serving man in a healthy way, and becomes a tyrant in the hands of self-serving, greed driven individuals who co-opt the symbol and twist him for their own ends. In the Bible you see both faces of “God”.

 

On a personal note, I don’t worship the symbol myself or embrace the mythology and use it for myself, but I do recognize its reality and power for good in the lives of those who do not let the symbol become their master, such as the literalists do. There is just too much history and connotations with the word for me to be able to effectively use it for those ends. I was a literalist like you.

 

I am not interested in deconverting people from Christianity who visit this site, but I am interested in opening them up beyond the narrow, constrictive, unhealthy boxes for their symbol of God that cuts them off from life and others. Exclusivist attitudes in religion is anti-spiritual in any belief system. I cannot see how “God”, as the hearts of modern man in a global community is served, or serves us, by being “Nationalistic” with it.

 

I am atheist because (in part), I need to be free from the unhealthy things associated with the “God” symbol. But being atheist does not mean I reject the positive things the symbol of God that we create represents. I have no real mythology to use for that end, other than just calling it Life, or Love, as some “personification” of the ideals for the point of transcendent emphasis. I embrace Life, and isn’t that serving that “God” society creates for themselves?

 

I could never serve the God symbol defined by the literalists. I was a literalist and it was unhealthy for my heart. I could never use my mind in an act of insincerity in order to serve a symbol I find unhealthy. My experience was unhealthy with it. Do you wish me to reconvert to something that was that for me? I should add that you will not be able to find a better interpretation of the Bible that will be more palatable for me, if you are approaching it as literal and infallible. If I approach in non-literally, then I can see "some" valid truths in it. I do feel it is wrong to toss out the baby with all the bathwater that is also there.

 

ok i understand where you come from, man created God for various reasons. i also finally read your testimony. it was a very interesting story, that gave much insight to why you feel the way you do. it seemed to me that you are a very intelectual person, that is not satisfied with the normal answer. i bet in your search for answers, God gradualy became less and less personal to you, and more like a story in a book. and then the simple fact that the biblical God does not fully reveal himself to us, leaving many questions unanswered. this was not what you wanted. then the traumatic event of your wife leaving you and taking your son away 2000 miles, i can see why you disregard God. but my question to you is how is religion unhealthy to the heart?

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Youre still missing the point. Reread my post http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?act=...&pid=194154

 

But still... to address your points, and to reiterate mine:

We can understand why natural disasters occur. What we do not understand is why God allows them to occur.

Why God allows them to occur? Or why God causes them? As a Christian, are you not supposed to believe that the natural disaster, and everything that happens in life, is God's doing?

 

Why did God allow the tsunami to kill over 225,000 people in Asia? Why did God allow Hurricane Katrina to destroy the homes of hundreds of thousands of people? I do not know. What I do know is this…God is good!

Again, reread the Opening Post and your initial post on this thread. Mr Grinch asks for anyone to explain how these attrocities are a sign of love. You said youll "take the baite" and respond to the challenge, but you still never explained how the attrocities shows God's love. All you repeatedly say is "i dont know". Dont say youre going to respond to the challenge if that's all youre going to say.

 

Natural disasters cause millions of people to reevaluate their priorities in life. Hundreds of millions of dollars in aid is sent to help the people that are suffering. Christian ministries have the opportunity help, minister, counsel, pray - and lead people to saving faith in Christ! God can, and does, bring great good out of a terrible tragedy (Romans 8:28).

So in order for one to reevaluate their priorities in life, thousands to millions of people must die and/or suffer first? I dare you to say that to someone who's lost a love one to 9/11, Hurricane Katrina, the Tsunami in Asia, to the War in Iraq, etc.

 

I guess it's no surprise that a Christian would say that considering the need to believe Jesus died. Wait... it is a surprise because that was the point of Jesus' death in the first place. Jesus supposedly died to relieve their sufferings and wash away their sins, so that they may reevaluate their lives. So i guess there is no need for others to die so that one can reevaluate their life.

 

Youre also saying that, again, thousands to millions of people must suffer and/or die, just so Christian ministries can witness. Do you even see what's wrong with that claim?

 

Everything you said is aarogant, self-righteous, and selfish. People must suffer/die for MY reevaluation of life... for MY ministry... for MY religion and cause... for MY faith in Christ.

 

back to the main issue at hand. you accept his free gift, praise him for a couple of years. then you decide to reject him, make fun of him, tell others how stupid the idea is, live your life without him, and what not. then 2 days before you die, you pray for forgiveness, and it is given. now that is love.

No, that is blackmail. No matter the scenario, you either believe, or you suffer eternal toture in hell. You still havent explained how that is love. Love is unconditional. Read the thread: Superman. It explains what love is and why Superman and Spiderman is better than Jesus.

 

Jesus will save you or heal only if you believe in him and call on his name.

 

Superman will try to save you whether you call on his name or not. He will save you even if you don't believe in him or agree with him. Superman will save you even if you hate him to his core (in the comics he has saved lex luthor more than a few times. Jesus wouldn't even think about saving satan). Unless you pose an immediate or future threat to others superman saves you. In some cases he still saves you even if you pose an immediate threat to others :eek:

 

Much better than Jesus to me.

 

Spiderman kicks both there asses though cause he saves people in a city that practically hates him and thinks he is a criminal. Everyone seems to love superman though. Superman's got it easy!!!

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ok i understand where you come from, man created God for various reasons. i also finally read your testimony. it was a very interesting story, that gave much insight to why you feel the way you do. it seemed to me that you are a very intelectual person, that is not satisfied with the normal answer. i bet in your search for answers, God gradualy became less and less personal to you, and more like a story in a book. and then the simple fact that the biblical God does not fully reveal himself to us, leaving many questions unanswered. this was not what you wanted. then the traumatic event of your wife leaving you and taking your son away 2000 miles, i can see why you disregard God. but my question to you is how is religion unhealthy to the heart?

Slight correction, "man created God for various reasons", but also continues to create him in their own image all the time.

 

Actually god didn't become less and less personal to me, but I became more and more conflicted with the teachings squaring with what I felt in my heart. I would say that as much as I am intellectual as you pointed out, I see myself equally as sprititual. You heard my music I create, which perhaps offers one example into a little of how I percieve the world through spiritual eyes, rather than raw intellect (for those interested: http://www.talkingtimeline.com/music/ ).

 

When I speak of an unhealthy religion, I am not saying religion is unhealthy, I am saying that literalism/fundamentalism is unhealthy. Please read my opening post in a topic from this January: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=130731 I think this explains it more clearly. Also see: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=156101 One more breif topic OP : http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=143230

 

That should help clarify my thoughts a little about what I consider unhealthy religious views. We'll pick it up from there.

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ok i understand where you come from, man created God for various reasons. i also finally read your testimony. it was a very interesting story, that gave much insight to why you feel the way you do. it seemed to me that you are a very intelectual person, that is not satisfied with the normal answer. i bet in your search for answers, God gradualy became less and less personal to you, and more like a story in a book. and then the simple fact that the biblical God does not fully reveal himself to us, leaving many questions unanswered. this was not what you wanted. then the traumatic event of your wife leaving you and taking your son away 2000 miles, i can see why you disregard God. but my question to you is how is religion unhealthy to the heart?

Slight correction, "man created God for various reasons", but also continues to create him in their own image all the time.

 

Actually god didn't become less and less personal to me, but I became more and more conflicted with the teachings squaring with what I felt in my heart. I would say that as much as I am intellectual as you pointed out, I see myself equally as sprititual. You heard my music I create, which perhaps offers one example into a little of how I percieve the world through spiritual eyes, rather than raw intellect (for those interested: http://www.talkingtimeline.com/music/ ).

 

When I speak of an unhealthy religion, I am not saying religion is unhealthy, I am saying that literalism/fundamentalism is unhealthy. Please read my opening post in a topic from this January: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=130731 I think this explains it more clearly. Also see: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=156101 One more breif topic OP : http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=143230

 

That should help clarify my thoughts a little about what I consider unhealthy religious views. We'll pick it up from there.

 

ok i am understanding a little more. when i read through it, i kept thinking of the small southern church that repeatedly preached every sunday turn or burn. and to be honnest with you, i didn't care for that enviroment much at all. for lack of better words, i have always said you should focus on the good and not the bad. sure going to hell for all eternity would suck. but i still don't think that was the primary message of the Lord. when i study and read about him, i see the Love he has for us. this is also reflected in the church i go to. i find thier messages to be more uplifting and positive than any church i have ever gone to. hence within about 8 years it has become the largest church in the city. i think the message of the gospel should be to love God and love others. if you do this, there is no risk of eternal torment. i don't think fear should be what motivates us to worship the Lord.

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i think the message of the gospel should be to love God and love others. if you do this, there is no risk of eternal torment. i don't think fear should be what motivates us to worship the Lord.

 

But what you're saying here is that there is a fear-based reason to worship your god, freeday - not loving your god or loving others. Failing to do one or the other will land you in Hell™, according to how you'd like the Gospels to be, right? That is setting up a punishment to be avoided as the motivator for doing certain things.

 

The thing is, the very existence of a hell for the "wicked" to burn in presupposes fear of it as the primary motivaiton for one to avoid it. Do you see what I mean? I agree that fear should not be the reason we choose to worship any god, but the fact of the matter is that if there is a place of eternal torment for those who fail to worship a god, then fear of ending up there is the first reason anyone will choose to worship that god. It will always, furthermore, be the one that keeps the worshipper in line, since fear of eternal torment will cause him to stay right where he is and refuse to explore other religious options.

 

And it is what Jebus came for - to die for us so we could have an escape hatch to get out of Hell™. Otherwise, what could've his purpose have been? Without a hell to save us from, Jebus is unecessary.

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i think the message of the gospel should be to love God and love others. if you do this, there is no risk of eternal torment. i don't think fear should be what motivates us to worship the Lord.

 

But what you're saying here is that there is a fear-based reason to worship your god, freeday - not loving your god or loving others. Failing to do one or the other will land you in Hell, according to how you'd like the Gospels to be, right? That is setting up a punishment to be avoided as the motivator for doing certain things.

 

The thing is, the very existence of a hell for the "wicked" to burn in presupposes fear of it as the primary motivaiton for one to avoid it. Do you see what I mean? I agree that fear should not be the reason we choose to worship any god, but the fact of the matter is that if there is a place of eternal torment for those who fail to worship a god, then fear of ending up there is the first reason anyone will choose to worship that god. It will always, furthermore, be the one that keeps the worshipper in line, since fear of eternal torment will cause him to stay right where he is and refuse to explore other religious options.

 

And it is what Jebus came for - to die for us so we could have an escape hatch to get out of Hell. Otherwise, what could've his purpose have been? Without a hell to save us from, Jebus is unecessary.

 

all i can say for myself, is that i do not worship the Lord out of fear of going to hell. that is not my motivation whatsoever. but do people choose to worship him first because of fear of hell, or that he created us, and has a purpose for us. i choose the later of the two.

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i think the message of the gospel should be to love God and love others. if you do this, there is no risk of eternal torment. i don't think fear should be what motivates us to worship the Lord.

You "think the message of the gospel SHOULD be to love God and love others"? :eek: Where, oh where, do I begin?

 

You said that "I think the gospel should be". This tells me that you disagree with what the gospel actually DOES say. The gospel DOES say, "believe on Jesus or go to hell". How much a person loves, or does good to his neighbor means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to "god" if you don't place your faith in Christ. THAT is the so-called "good news" of God. Grace by FAITH, and NOT "good works" is what "saves" a man. Sound familiar?

 

And YOU know this. Don't piss on my back and tell me it's raining. No amount of LOVE wins anyone a "get out of hell" free card. THAT may be what you WANT the "central message of the gospel" to be, but THAT isn't it.

 

Again, you said, "I don't THINK fear should be what motivates us to worship god." :lmao: Maybe you need to try reading your bible for the first time. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." "Fear the Lord and keep his commandments. This is the WHOLE duty of man."

 

Freeday, you amuse me. With every vacillating post, you do more and more to dismantle your own trembling faith. YOU dislike it as much as we do, which is why you keep trying to re-write god's message into something more palatable for decent human consumption. (Which is also why you steadfastly avoid honestly dealing with the POINT of this thread, and you hide in side discussions with Antlerman.)

 

Your "Freudian slip" is showing. :wicked:

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i think the message of the gospel should be to love God and love others. if you do this, there is no risk of eternal torment. i don't think fear should be what motivates us to worship the Lord.

 

I agree. I know a bunch of people who consider themselves christian who believe fully that God and Jesus are unconditionally loving beings. But they don't believe in Hell or follow the Bible really at all because they contradict that ideal. I think doing that cuts a huge chunk out of what defines the religion. I won't say they aren't "True" christians, but it was this sort of thinking is what lead me to deconversion in the first place. I can't imagine an omnipotent and unconditionally loving God ever creating a "Hell" or punish human beings for doing exactly what he created them to do.

 

The idea of "love God and love your fellow man" is a basic idea found in most religions. It's in Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, and so on and so forth.

 

So if loving God and loving others is all it takes, there really isn't much point in being in any religion unless you want to be. God requires nothing.

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Freeday, you amuse me. With every vacillating post, you do more and more to dismantle your own trembling faith. YOU dislike it as much as we do, which is why you keep trying to re-write god's message into something more palatable for decent human consumption. (Which is also why you steadfastly avoid honestly dealing with the POINT of this thread, and you hide in side discussions with Antlerman.)

 

Your "Freudian slip" is showing. :wicked:

 

dude, i have tried to give you the best answer i can. read posts 61/67/68/72/75/75/79/82 all of these were before i started in on antlerman.

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i think the message of the gospel should be to love God and love others. if you do this, there is no risk of eternal torment. i don't think fear should be what motivates us to worship the Lord.

 

I agree. I know a bunch of people who consider themselves christian who believe fully that God and Jesus are unconditionally loving beings. But they don't believe in Hell or follow the Bible really at all because they contradict that ideal. I think doing that cuts a huge chunk out of what defines the religion. I won't say they aren't "True" christians, but it was this sort of thinking is what lead me to deconversion in the first place. I can't imagine an omnipotent and unconditionally loving God ever creating a "Hell" or punish human beings for doing exactly what he created them to do.

 

The idea of "love God and love your fellow man" is a basic idea found in most religions. It's in Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, and so on and so forth.

 

So if loving God and loving others is all it takes, there really isn't much point in being in any religion unless you want to be. God requires nothing.

 

originally i have never put much though into or found hell to be as offensive as you guys have. this is something i have learned since being on this site. when i talk to christians, the conversation of hell rarely comes up, but when i am on a board with atheist, it comes up very frequently. can someone explain this to me.

 

 

'freeday' just has to be a spoof.

 

bdp

 

can somebody tell me what the hell a spoof is.

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all i can say for myself, is that i do not worship the Lord out of fear of going to hell. that is not my motivation whatsoever. but do people choose to worship him first because of fear of hell, or that he created us, and has a purpose for us. i choose the later of the two.

 

I can't speak for you, but my career as a christian was filled to overflowing with fear. Fear for my friends, loved ones, and even those I didn't know. Hell was a big looming monster and the fact that I was saved was no comfort. How could I possibly be at peace when others were doomed?

 

Do you not live in dire fear for those around you? If not, isn't that selfish? Does Jesus give you peace in the stead of this "truth" in your world of beliefs? If so, he merely placates you with a drug of numbness to the suffering of others. That's just twisted.

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Guest Mr. XC

'freeday' just has to be a spoof.

can somebody tell me what the hell a spoof is.

Sometimes, an atheist will create an account on this message board, and make posts while acting like a Christian. This involves making wild and nonsensical claims that is a satire of the Christian faith and usually based on a literal interpretation of the bible.

 

So bdp is accusing you of being a non-Christian and posing as a Christian making up stuff and/or your posts seem humorous to bdp.

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dude, i have tried to give you the best answer i can. read posts 61/67/68/72/75/75/79/82 all of these were before i started in on antlerman.

We've read those posts.... you never answered the question of how attrocities show love. All youve said is God is just, that's why we need Jesus, or i dont know.

 

Ive been trying to keep the topic on track, but you keep going off on something else. Hence why i agree with the comment by Mr Grinch about the Freudian Slip.

 

<edit>

 

still awaiting to your response to post 88: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...mp;#entry194333

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