The Specious Love Of God

[Bluescreen]

Freeday - Pleading ignorance isn't going to hack it around here, as you've surely noticed.

 

Let me break down the shark example and spell out the ethical/legal principles behind it, along with the problems that flow from it.

 

Bob, the shark, and God revolves around the legal concept of "negligence." To be negligent, the person must act in such a way that unreasonably exposes another person to harm, and their act/omission ultimately causes harm. In other words, the negligent person must have 1. a duty to do something to/for another person, 2. their act or failure to act 3. causes 4. harm to that other person.

 

Keep in mind that negligence does NOT entail an active intent to harm someone or malice - it's purely carelessness. I'm not arguing the "Evil God" scenario here - I'm throwing you something that *should* be easier to resolve than the atrocity issue.

 

Now, let's take a closer look at Bob, the shark, and God.

 

First, some basic assumptions. God made the shark and Bob. God knows what the shark likes to do - eat things made of meat that are swimming in the ocean. Bob is made of meat. Bob likes to swim in the ocean. God has the power to either stop Bob from swimming in the ocean or to stop the shark from eating Bob. God knows Bob will be swimming in the ocean at the same time as the shark that will eat him. So, what next?

 

1. Does God owe Bob a duty of care? Arguably, yes he does. The Bible gives several examples of how people are responsible for protecting each other. The one that best fits the shark is Exodus 21:28-32 - a man's responsibility to control a dangerous bull that he knows likes to gore people. If the guy doesn't control his bull and it skewers someone, the guy is responsible. Why not the same for the shark?

 

2. Act/Omission - If the shark isn't stopped from swimming up to Bob and eating him, it sure looks like this dangerous animal isn't being properly controlled.

 

3. Cause - This is an easy one. The failure to restrain the man-eating shark has caused Bob's messy demise.

 

4. Harm - The easiest one of all. Bob's dead.

 

So, all four elements are met, and it looks like our deity is guilty of negligence by not controlling the dangerous shark he made, and as a result, Bob's sharkfood.

 

Now, Freeday, tell me how negligence and love go together? After all, in human society, negligent parents are bad parents.

[freeday]

dude, i have tried to give you the best answer i can. read posts 61/67/68/72/75/75/79/82 all of these were before i started in on antlerman.

We've read those posts.... you never answered the question of how attrocities show love. All youve said is God is just, that's why we need Jesus, or i dont know.

 

Ive been trying to keep the topic on track, but you keep going off on something else. Hence why i agree with the comment by Mr Grinch about the Freudian Slip.

 

<edit>

 

still awaiting to your response to post 88: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...mp;#entry194333

 

you keep looking at the wars against the pagans as a result of God's love, it is a result of sin. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm is by going to war with them.

 

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes a war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions of Jews would have been killed? If the Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African Americans have had to suffer as slaves? We must all remember to base our beliefs of the Bible, not on our emotions (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

 

Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “there is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Some wars are more “just” than others, but all wars are ultimately the result of sin.

[freeday]

meant to add this to the above. as i have said before, you keep calling it the typical fundy cop-out. but it is the truth. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:9). It is impossible for us finite human beings to understand the ways of an infinite God (Romans 11:33-35).

[Vigile]

Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm is by going to war with them.

 

Good job, you just put limits on god. Now god is pissed.

 

Is war the best way out of all available alternatives to eradicate sin? How effective has this method proven to be?

 

I don't accept your definition of sin BTW.

[RHEMtron]

Maybe we shouldve asked how you define love first, because attrocities does not mean love to me.

 

You keep looking at the wars against the pagans as a result of God's love, it is a result of sin. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing.

I fail to see how necessity equals love. But ughhhh... have you already forgotten what your Savior has taught you? Love your enemies [Matt 5:44, Luke 6:27, Luke 6:35]!!!

 

In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18)

Sorry to be knitt-picky, but the literal verse in Romans 3:9 is that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; It doesnt say everyone. It then goes on to say that verses 10-18 was written in the past. Now here, Paul is doing a cut-and-paste job. Verse 10-18 isnt being quoted from a specific scripture like he has you believe. He's quoting indivdual verses from Psalms and 1 verse from Isaiah.

 

If you refer back to the original verses, he's using them waaaay out of context, rewrites from it's original wording, and contradicts other parts of the bible. For example: Romans 3:10-12 is supposed to parallel Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3.

 

But then again.... there verses right before Romans 3:9 has Paul admitting he is a liar for God. So i guess this is to be expected.

 

war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm is by going to war with them.

So kill or be killed eh? That still goes against God's commandment of "Thou shall not kill" and Jesus' teaching of "Love your enemies," and "turn the other cheek". But again, refering to the Opening Post, how does this show love?

 

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes a war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions of Jews would have been killed? If the Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African Americans have had to suffer as slaves?

Great, but those attrocities were started and/or backed up by belief in the bible. Hitler was a Christian. Slave owners were Christians who enslaved Christians. The slaves themselves were converted... so initially, it was Christians enslaving pagans. By your intitial statement, that's okae isnt it? Because theyre pagans?

 

Dont believe me about Hitler? Check it out: http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm

 

We must all remember to base our beliefs of the Bible, not on our emotions (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

We dont. If we used emotions, and not our logic, us member here on Ex-C would still be Christian.

 

Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “there is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.

Are you sure you didnt get that from a song? Turnnnn, turnnnn, turnnn...

 

I find it funny that youre able to quote everyone else except God and Jesus. The most important figures in your religion command Thou shall not kill, Love your enemies, and Turn the other cheek.

 

You still havent really explained how the attrocities show love. You started to, but instead went into a direction of your own brand of Christian Apologetics. This shows me that you know there is something wrong here. But instead of accepting what is clear in front of you, i will boldly say you suffer from cognitive dissonance, and try to justify attrocities.

 

Dont try to divert the attention to war on paganism, or make that the issue. You didnt even touch the subject of natural[God] disasters killing good Christians. Sorry if i seem anal right now, but im not letting you deviate from the Opening Post. Think of it as my way of getting you to think and reevaluate things. Awareness of truth and self. Like Vigile said... your justifications and apologetics are putting a limit on God.

 

So... guess im still waiting for how are these attrocities love? And a response to the other post:

So in order for one to reevaluate their priorities in life, thousands to millions of people must die and/or suffer first? I dare you to say that to someone who's lost a love one to 9/11, Hurricane Katrina, the Tsunami in Asia, to the War in Iraq, etc.

 

I guess it's no surprise that a Christian would say that considering the need to believe Jesus died. Wait... it is a surprise because that was the point of Jesus' death in the first place. Jesus supposedly died to relieve their sufferings and wash away their sins, so that they may reevaluate their lives. So i guess there is no need for others to die so that one can reevaluate their life.

 

Youre also saying that, again, thousands to millions of people must suffer and/or die, just so Christian ministries can witness. Do you even see what's wrong with that claim?

 

Everything you said is aarogant, self-righteous, and selfish. People must suffer/die for MY reevaluation of life... for MY ministry... for MY religion and cause... for MY faith in Christ.

[Checkmate]

Hmm...I asked how is god any better than the "devil"? I asked, how is god's murderousness the same as love. And all I get is "I don't know", and the Necessity of War to thwart Evil.

 

 

WTF? NOW we're expected to believe that "god is love" because he orchestrates "necessary" bloody conflicts between his creations?

 

Freeday, please, go take a nap. Or go take your medicine. Don't post while high. Do something. Do ANYTHING! Just STOP posting absolute NONSENSE! You're making it harder and harder for me to take you seriously. NO ONE can be THIS stupid.

 

Elsewhere on these boards I related the story of Star Trek™ and the Organian Peace Treaty. You may have missed/ignored it. So I'll tell it again.

 

In this tale of FICTION, written by MEN, The United Federation of Planets® was at war with the Klingon Empire®. The war came to a head at this outworld planet called Organia. The inhabitants, the Organians, seemed to be a simple, peaceful, agrarian race of humanoids. Captain Kirk™ of the Federation believed that these Organians needed to be protected from the awful Klingons. But the Organians assured Kirk that they were fine.

 

The war escalated, as wars usually do, and people began dying. The Organians had enough of this nonsense and decided to intervene. Turns out that the Organians were GODS. And so to STOP this NEEDLESS war, they made each and every weapon, person and device of war in the ENTIRETY of both warring empires, too hot to touch. The Organians forced PEACE on two warring empires without KILLING, MAIMING, TORTURING or anything else negative.

 

Now THAT is the behavior of "love". THAT is the behavior of a GOD of Love. And THAT is the work of a RATIONAL mind at work.

 

Now, freeday, can you explain to me why YOUR mad dog "god" can't figure out any other way to stop war, or even control humanity, without resorting to bloodshed, when Gene Roddenberry can figure it out?

 

 

(Hint: Your "god" isn't real, but just the sadistic construct of primitive minds reflecting their OWN desires and meanness.)

[Antlerman]

ok i am understanding a little more. when i read through it, i kept thinking of the small southern church that repeatedly preached every sunday turn or burn. and to be honnest with you, i didn't care for that enviroment much at all. for lack of better words, i have always said you should focus on the good and not the bad. sure going to hell for all eternity would suck. but i still don't think that was the primary message of the Lord. when i study and read about him, i see the Love he has for us. this is also reflected in the church i go to. i find thier messages to be more uplifting and positive than any church i have ever gone to. hence within about 8 years it has become the largest church in the city. i think the message of the gospel should be to love God and love others. if you do this, there is no risk of eternal torment. i don't think fear should be what motivates us to worship the Lord.

Actually, it was a small Western church! But of course the views expressed there were not just theirs alone, but views expressed by many, many other churches who read the Bible literally. The church I was in when I went to Bible College was a bigger congregation and still taught the literal truth of hell.

 

The fact is you recognized above that it's not healthy to focus on the bad, as you put it. So it seems a least you are acknowledging that the teaching of hell is bad. Why should it be bad if it comes from God? It comes back to what I said before in the last post I linked you to that it is like the abused spouse trying to minimize her abusive partner’s horrific actions. "I just prefer to look at the good things about him. He really is an extremely loving man." If his family doesn't choose to look at the bleeding and tortured bodies in Dad's basement, to me it's impossible to ignore they are there, even if you choose to prefer to focus on his good side. It will affect you negatively. How can it not???

 

Put it to you this way: Would you ever consign anyone to unimaginable torture in an endless hell? I doubt it. If you wouldn't, then what does that say? In fact you like everyone else creates God in their own image. You don't really believe what they teach about hell. It seems like lip service to literalism, yet not really believing it because you choose to ignore that part of it. Sounds pretty typical of mainstream, non-literalist Christianity. Welcome to their club.

 

The things I highlighted above shows you are creating God in your own image, "I think the message of the gospel should be..."; "I find THEIR message more uplifting and positive than any other church..." Again I say that man creates God in the way that is meaning to the individual, and to the society or culture they participate within. You have just demonstrated both of these aspects in the two statements above.

 

It's all there in the Bible: a god of love, a god of war and genocide, a god of nationalism, a god of global unity, a god of forgiveness, and a god of condemnation. Take your pick. This is the nature of religion. We create the god that serves our interests best, feed him by worship so he can feed us by his image of ourselves we deify. You are choosing to deify the god of love, and that is an admirable quality of man to embrace and says something about you.

 

Yet by also embracing a belief that god sends people to hell, this also says something to others about you. We embrace beliefs that reflect the values of our own hearts. Why is it that people are put off by this type of Christianity? It's right there in this paragraph. It's not God that sends people to hell, but people who believe that! Those who believe in and worship that god are giving it life to give society a message of fear and death and damnationation and hatred throught mindless, and pointless unimaginable torture - all for not converting to their religion! What kind of people are these who embrace this of type belief?! YUK!!

 

Which God do you want to wish upon your fellow man? One that promotes unity that comes from true free will, or one that forces "unity" through threats? I think it's clear you prefer the one who loves. But... what to do with those pesky verses in the Bible that talk about a hell? (hint = think outside fundamentalsim).

[Checkmate]

Bump.

 

I KNOW there are still some "Christians" loitering about. I see them posting everywhere else and starting new threads almost every day. So could one of you advocates of god's love please tackle this thorny issue for us?

 

Otherwise I'll just presume that I must be correct. Your "God" is actually the "devil", (read: "non-existant") and you're all deceived nitwits foolishly speaking of his "love", because you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Therefore we non-believers are correct to reject your "god" and his "word" (made flesh).

[RHEMtron]

Still waiting for a response... or another Christian to take the challenge...

[freeday]

Still waiting for a response... or another Christian to take the challenge...

 

you guys are relentless, i have a feeling, no matter what i or anyone else writes would not be good enough for you. so here is your answer concerning God's love and hell.

 

here is literalist at its best. The wrath of God is revealed against the unrighteous because man rejects the creator and worships the creation (Romans 1:18-20). God does not ALLOW anybody to go to hell. Rather, man chooses to go there on his own by denouncing him.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Moron.

[RHEMtron]

you guys are relentless,

Hahahaha yeah we are. Well, it's more of we dont let people dance around the main points.

 

i have a feeling, no matter what i or anyone else writes would not be good enough for you. so here is your answer concerning God's love and hell.

 

<snip>

It's not that it's not good enough for us... It's just that the question asked was to explain how an attrocity, or the sentencing of someone to eternal torture, shows love. The only answers we've been receiving are [to paraphrase]:

 

-"ill answer the challenge that i know how it shows love by saying 'i dont know'"

 

-"We're bad people. We need the wars, famine, stryfe, and genocide."

 

-"Those times are given so we can witness to show God's power."

 

So tell me... do those answers even have anything to do with the subject of love? I fail to see how they even show love... which Mr Grinch was asking you to show in the first place.

[freeday]

you guys are relentless,

Hahahaha yeah we are. Well, it's more of we dont let people dance around the main points.

 

i have a feeling, no matter what i or anyone else writes would not be good enough for you. so here is your answer concerning God's love and hell.

 

<snip>

It's not that it's not good enough for us... It's just that the question asked was to explain how an attrocity, or the sentencing of someone to eternal torture, shows love. The only answers we've been receiving are [to paraphrase]:

 

-"ill answer the challenge that i know how it shows love by saying 'i dont know'"

 

-"We're bad people. We need the wars, famine, stryfe, and genocide."

 

-"Those times are given so we can witness to show God's power."

 

So tell me... do those answers even have anything to do with the subject of love? I fail to see how they even show love... which Mr Grinch was asking you to show in the first place.

 

i thought that i posted earlier that the wars were a result of sin. i have a hard time answering your questions because you keep reverting back to OT. there is a new covanent with the people. in the old testament many times peoples actions were punished or rewarded directly in this life. the new covenant is different. you are rewarded or punished in the afterlife.

[Vigile]

the new covenant is different. you are rewarded or punished in the afterlife.

 

To that I reply, please answer my question on this thread.

[RHEMtron]

i thought that i posted earlier that the wars were a result of sin.

But finish what you said:

you keep looking at the wars against the pagans as a result of God's love, it is a result of sin. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm is by going to war with them.

Who's going to war with them? Non-sinners? Im getting the implication that non-sinners are the ones who START the war against sinners, to keep them from doing harm. My initial response was that Jesus said to "Love your enemies".

 

But AGAIN this still does not explain how this shows love. Ill grant that the wars are caused by sin, but God is still allowing war to take place. Many people have and will die. How does God allowing people to die show he loves everyone?

 

i have a hard time answering your questions because you keep reverting back to OT.

What's wrong with this? A whole lotta portions in the NT revert back to the OT. Christians nowadays quote OT often. So why are you, other Christians, and authors of the NT allowed to quote back to the OT, but im not?

 

Also, give me an example of me reverting back to the OT and clearly state why im wrong for doing so.

 

there is a new covanent with the people.

The new covenant with the people was first discussed in the OT in Jeremiah 31:27... which was then later paraphrased by the author of Hebrews.

 

in the old testament many times peoples actions were punished or rewarded directly in this life. the new covenant is different. you are rewarded or punished in the afterlife.

Read what the bible originally says about the New Covenant. There is no stated reward or punishment in the afterlife. All it says is that the laws will be put into everyone's heart so we dont have to teach and/or witness to people, everyone will die for his own sins, and that all will know God, who will forgive everyone for their sins, and he will remember everyone's sins no more.

 

off topic: how is it possible for God to not remember anything?

[freeday]

 

i have a hard time answering your questions because you keep reverting back to OT

What's wrong with this? A whole lotta portions in the NT revert back to the OT. Christians nowadays quote OT often. So why are you, other Christians, and authors of the NT allowed to quote back to the OT, but im not?

 

Also, give me an example of me reverting back to the OT and clearly state why im wrong for doing so. .

 

since the prophecy of the fall of judah, God has not ordained a battle against a nation as a result of sin.

 

there is a new covanent with the people.

The new covenant with the people was first discussed in the OT in Jeremiah 31:27... which was then later paraphrased by the author of Hebrews.

 

in the old testament many times peoples actions were punished or rewarded directly in this life. the new covenant is different. you are rewarded or punished in the afterlife.

Read what the bible originally says about the New Covenant. There is no stated reward or punishment in the afterlife. All it says is that the laws will be put into everyone's heart so we dont have to teach and/or witness to people, everyone will die for his own sins, and that all will know God, who will forgive everyone for their sins, and he will remember everyone's sins no more.

 

off topic: how is it possible for God to not remember anything?

 

where is this in the bible or do we just inferr that is the meaning. some of it i agree with, but the many times Jesus was saying how bad hell was, he was really saying heaven was the better place to be. i can think of several instances of this, and he makes clear that faith in him will spare you from hell.

 

 

 

i have a hard time answering your questions because you keep reverting back to OT

What's wrong with this? A whole lotta portions in the NT revert back to the OT. Christians nowadays quote OT often. So why are you, other Christians, and authors of the NT allowed to quote back to the OT, but im not?

 

Also, give me an example of me reverting back to the OT and clearly state why im wrong for doing so. .

 

since the prophecy of the fall of judah, God has not ordained a battle against a nation as a result of sin.

 

there is a new covanent with the people.

The new covenant with the people was first discussed in the OT in Jeremiah 31:27... which was then later paraphrased by the author of Hebrews.

 

in the old testament many times peoples actions were punished or rewarded directly in this life. the new covenant is different. you are rewarded or punished in the afterlife.

Read what the bible originally says about the New Covenant. There is no stated reward or punishment in the afterlife. All it says is that the laws will be put into everyone's heart so we dont have to teach and/or witness to people, everyone will die for his own sins, and that all will know God, who will forgive everyone for their sins, and he will remember everyone's sins no more.

 

off topic: how is it possible for God to not remember anything?

 

where is this in the bible or do we just inferr that is the meaning. some of it i agree with, but the many times Jesus was saying how bad hell was, he was really saying heaven was the better place to be. i can think of several instances of this, and he makes clear that faith in him will spare you from hell.

[Checkmate]

*sigh*

 

I'm torn. Do I waste time by lambasting freeday for his blatant stupidity? OR do I ignore his idiocy as not worthy of my time? OR do I pretend to treat him as a serious contestant that has a brain and has given us much to cogitate upon?

 

Hmm.....Maybe a combination is my best bet.

 

 

When did I EVER maintain that we were ONLY speaking of "god's" PAST actions (OT)? WHEN? WHERE? Don't give me any of that dispensational double-speak and side-stepping!

 

In fact, I specifically said that WE would not waste time belaboring ALL of god's assorted crimes, because it would take too much time. I SAID: YOU Christians need to explain/justify YOUR claims of god's "love" IN LIGHT OF ALL the Biblical attrocites listed under his name! From Genesis TO Revelation! OT to NEW! From the Flood of Creation, to the GENOCIDE of the Amalekites (etc, etc), to the murder of Ananias and Sapphira (NT, book of Acts), to the Fires of Hell! HOW IS THIS LOVE!!!!!! How is torment and MURDER of selected members of "his" creation "love"! How is "giving us a choice" -- "Love me, worship me, serve me, lick my balls, OR I'm going to fucking KILL YOU and BURN YOU FOREVER!" -- HOW is THIS "love"? This isn't "love"! THIS is a cosmic example of Fatal Attraction™!!!

 

Freeday, if you don't quit wasting my time with the sheer idiocy of the lobotomized, I SWEAR I'm going to find you and insert a small garden gnome up your ass!

 

[freeday]

*sigh*

 

I'm torn. Do I waste time by lambasting freeday for his blatant stupidity? OR do I ignore his idiocy as not worthy of my time? OR do I pretend to treat him as a serious contestant that has a brain and has given us much to cogitate upon?

 

Hmm.....Maybe a combination is my best bet.

 

 

When did I EVER maintain that we were ONLY speaking of "god's" PAST actions (OT)? WHEN? WHERE? Don't give me any of that dispensational double-speak and side-stepping!

 

In fact, I specifically said that WE would not waste time belaboring ALL of god's assorted crimes, because it would take too much time. I SAID: YOU Christians need to explain/justify YOUR claims of god's "love" IN LIGHT OF ALL the Biblical attrocites listed under his name! From Genesis TO Revelation! OT to NEW! From the Flood of Creation, to the GENOCIDE of the Amalekites (etc, etc), to the murder of Ananias and Sapphira (NT, book of Acts), to the Fires of Hell! HOW IS THIS LOVE!!!!!! How is torment and MURDER of selected members of "his" creation "love"! How is "giving us a choice" -- "Love me, worship me, serve me, lick my balls, OR I'm going to fucking KILL YOU and BURN YOU FOREVER!" -- HOW is THIS "love"? This isn't "love"! THIS is a cosmic example of Fatal Attraction!!!

 

Freeday, if you don't quit wasting my time with the sheer idiocy of the lobotomized, I SWEAR I'm going to find you and insert a small garden gnome up your ass!

 

 

your threats are meaningless to me, save them for whoever you think are frightened by your pathetic childish attitude!

 

my final answer on this is, one of the most basic truths of God is his essential holiness. because God is holy, sinful people are hideous, detestable and deserving of his wrath. some people can not comprehend how powerfull and terrible sin and its consequences are, probably because they don't fully comprehend God's holiness. God has given us a unique quality of relationship with him, but he has entrusted us with freedom, the freedom to accept him or to turn away from him. He does not compel or coerce humans made in his image, yet nothing can thwart his glory and grace.

[RHEMtron]

Again, you danced around the issues and didn't answer a question directly. In the end, all we're asking you is HOW ARE ATTROCITIES SHOWING GOD'S LOVE? Youre answering us with [to paraphrase], "Attrocities show God's love by he's great God full of grace and you dont understand sin and God's holiness". Can you see our frustration?

[Vigile]

my final answer on this is, one of the most basic truths of God is his essential holiness. because God is holy, sinful people are hideous, detestable and deserving of his wrath. some people can not comprehend how powerfull and terrible sin and its consequences are, probably because they don't fully comprehend God's holiness. God has given us a unique quality of relationship with him, but he has entrusted us with freedom, the freedom to accept him or to turn away from him. He does not compel or coerce humans made in his image, yet nothing can thwart his glory and grace.

 

That's your definition of truth, here's mine:

 

My not so final answer on this is one of the most basic truths of life is that there are no absolutes and that evil is a relative term measured against the harm that it does others and the necessity of the action. Because Christians are such binary thinkers, their belief system is hideous, detestable, and deserving of the rebuke of mankind. Christians cannot comprehend how powerful their mind meme is and how terribly debilitating their self hate and its consequences are; probably because they don't fully comprehend the fact that what they believe is only true when measured against their own baseless definitions. Each of us has the natural ability (to varying degrees) to reason and understand that what Christians call freedom is actually slavery to an ugly paradigm that has them hating themselves and feeling that they and mankind are unworthy of love. The Christian god by any rational and objective definition has attributes that contradict any reasonable definition of glory and or grace.

 

the new covenant is different. you are rewarded or punished in the afterlife.

 

To that I reply, please answer my question on this thread.

 

*bump*

[Checkmate]

.........

my final answer on this is,..."standard sheep rhetoric"....

"Final answer"? I must have missed your first "answer", because you haven't "answered" jack shit. You've been drooling incoherently and wasting time. Which is why I'M saying (probably not for the last time, because I know you aren't going away)...

 

[freeday]

.........

my final answer on this is,..."standard sheep rhetoric"....

"Final answer"? I must have missed your first "answer", because you haven't "answered" jack shit. You've been drooling incoherently and wasting time. Which is why I'M saying (probably not for the last time, because I know you aren't going away)...

 

 

 

i am sorry this is not the answer you wanted. you keep reversing the role, it's God's job to do the judging, until you create your own universe and humans, i think it will remain that way.

 

and just asking why are you so mad about something that happened thousands of yrs ago. you don't know the full circumstances of the situation, only a small portion is revealed.

[NotBlinded]

...you create your own universe...

I saw that you did post in the Science vs Religion section so you saw where scientists are trying to do just that. It really doesn't change much what I believe, but it may put some dents in your belief if they do create a universe because that is part of your acceptance that there may not be a god.

[Antlerman]

my final answer on this is, one of the most basic truths of God is his essential holiness. because God is holy, sinful people are hideous, detestable and deserving of his wrath. some people can not comprehend how powerfull and terrible sin and its consequences are, probably because they don't fully comprehend God's holiness. God has given us a unique quality of relationship with him, but he has entrusted us with freedom, the freedom to accept him or to turn away from him. He does not compel or coerce humans made in his image, yet nothing can thwart his glory and grace.

I don't know freeday; I've always felt being branded with horrible epithets like this does a serious mind-job on kids psyche's growing up. Ever dealt with a child who's father called them "worthless, maggots, ugly, stupid, fat, lazy, evil, wicked, bad, brat, selfish, pig, shit, fucker, asshole, idiot!" You get the idea?

 

Educated people have learned that these sorts of "motivations" have a horrible effect on human beings. You can say Christ makes you "pure and holy and righteous", but as Paul says, "Yet not I, but Christ". Again, self-effacement, self degradation; I am a worthless sinner but for God!"

 

Phooey!

 

Let me tell you, when it comes to sharing MEANINGFUL LOVE, it can only come from someone who is standing on their own two feet, WHO FIRST LOVES THEMSELVES! Otherwise, you have groveling, needy, fear-based dependency. That is only rewarding to a control freak, not a mature human being with a heart of love.

 

This portrait of God you are repeating, born out of Dark Ages of man's self-loathing approach to spiritual enlightenment is unhealthy, and damaging to spirituality. Say it however you want to try, but saying we have the freedom to walk away from him is a lie. When the consequence of doing so is being burned alive forever in indescribable screams of incomprehensible agony, - THIS IS NOT FREE WILL, nor is it LOVE.

 

If I would never do this to someone who rejects my love, why would God? Don't give me theological excuse. Theology should inspire, not make one's heart sick! If you really believe this, than you are either disconnected from your own humanity emotionally, or you are conflicted spiritually.

 

I reject these sorts of views of myself and the universe, and am infinitely more alive for doing so.

[freeday]

my final answer on this is, one of the most basic truths of God is his essential holiness. because God is holy, sinful people are hideous, detestable and deserving of his wrath. some people can not comprehend how powerfull and terrible sin and its consequences are, probably because they don't fully comprehend God's holiness. God has given us a unique quality of relationship with him, but he has entrusted us with freedom, the freedom to accept him or to turn away from him. He does not compel or coerce humans made in his image, yet nothing can thwart his glory and grace.

I don't know freeday; I've always felt being branded with horrible epithets like this does a serious mind-job on kids psyche's growing up. Ever dealt with a child who's father called them "worthless, maggots, ugly, stupid, fat, lazy, evil, wicked, bad, brat, selfish, pig, shit, fucker, asshole, idiot!" You get the idea?

 

Educated people have learned that these sorts of "motivations" have a horrible effect on human beings. You can say Christ makes you "pure and holy and righteous", but as Paul says, "Yet not I, but Christ". Again, self-effacement, self degradation; I am a worthless sinner but for God!"

 

Phooey!

 

Let me tell you, when it comes to sharing MEANINGFUL LOVE, it can only come from someone who is standing on their own two feet, WHO FIRST LOVES THEMSELVES! Otherwise, you have groveling, needy, fear-based dependency. That is only rewarding to a control freak, not a mature human being with a heart of love.

 

This portrait of God you are repeating, born out of Dark Ages of man's self-loathing approach to spiritual enlightenment is unhealthy, and damaging to spirituality. Say it however you want to try, but saying we have the freedom to walk away from him is a lie. When the consequence of doing so is being burned alive forever in indescribable screams of incomprehensible agony, - THIS IS NOT FREE WILL, nor is it LOVE.

 

If I would never do this to someone who rejects my love, why would God? Don't give me theological excuse. Theology should inspire, not make one's heart sick! If you really believe this, than you are either disconnected from your own humanity emotionally, or you are conflicted spiritually.

 

I reject these sorts of views of myself and the universe, and am infinitely more alive for doing so.

 

 

like i have said before, i focus on two things. which Jesus himself said were the greatest commandments. love God and Love your nieghbor. i find these to be helpfull and insightfull for all humanity.

 

BUT. people keep asking these questions, focusing on them. i can't help what the bible says, if people have a problem with it, they can choose not to believe or question God in the afterlife.

 

The God i believe in doesn't ask much, but gives greatly.