The Penalty For Blaphemy

[ricky18]

Christians justify hell as fair.I debated with couple of christians saying.

 

1. What is the wages of blasphemy?

= An eternity in the lake of fire

 

2. But Jesus payed the penalty for us?

So they say

 

3. My conclusion - If the penalty for sin is eternal torment, and Jesus took the penalty for all the sinners,How come jesus didnt even spend 1 day in a fiery lake?After all that is the punishment which he decided to take upon himself.

 

They just replied with with a louwsy statement. The crusifiction of the son of God,Is equal to a eternity in the flames of hell.Yeah right!!!

 

 

Also I told them That the murder who was crucified probably had the same punishment as jesus his crucifiction is not even enough to pay for his sins yet jesus who had the same punishment,his death could cover all he sinners sins.How fair is that

[nick5]

That's true, the crucifiction really isn't that bad. There are some tortures that are much more painful and last a lot longer. Being dipped in lava is much worse, considering you're already dead and the pain never ends.

[Amanda]

Christians justify hell as fair.I debated with couple of christians saying.

 

1. What is the wages of blasphemy?

= An eternity in the lake of fire

Ricky, Isn't the only unforgiveable sin blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? I think this is to go against things we have come to hold as sacred, such as respect for life.

 

2. But Jesus payed the penalty for us?

So they say

 

3. My conclusion - If the penalty for sin is eternal torment, and Jesus took the penalty for all the sinners,How come jesus didnt even spend 1 day in a fiery lake?After all that is the punishment which he decided to take upon himself.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, yet I think the crucifiction is to portray a principle. If the biblical stories are taken literally, of course they're nonsense, IMO. However, the character of Jesus was to show how to live within, in heaven, nirvana, no matter what the outside environment is about. Maybe heaven and hell are just internal states... and forgiveness/compassion, different than condoning or excusing, is the way to escape hell, if you want to accept and believe these principles.

 

They just replied with with a louwsy statement. The crusifiction of the son of God,Is equal to a eternity in the flames of hell.Yeah right!!!

 

 

Also I told them That the murder who was crucified probably had the same punishment as jesus his crucifiction is not even enough to pay for his sins yet jesus who had the same punishment,his death could cover all he sinners sins.How fair is that

Most people don't think about what these teachings are really saying... they just follow the masses who spawn from those who used these teachings for their own agendas, IMHO. They've been twisted and turned so many times, we need to go back to the very basics to even begin to conceive what the initial movement was really all about.

 

It seems to me, the difference in the thief next to Jesus was that he was guilty, and Jesus was not. Still, just a characterization of the value of forgiveness, which is different than condoning and excusing a behavior, for maintaining the best inner peace possible. IMHO, the concept is that everyone is doing the best they can, in the situation they're in, with the coping skills available to them. Hence, forgive them for they know not what they do. How can we be angry with others or our self for not doing better than our best? We can forgive someone and still hold them accountable and responsible for their behavior.

 

Hey Ricky, if you can give insight to someone that is a fundamentalist, so they can break away... more power to you!

[RHEMtron]

1. What is the wages of blasphemy?

= An eternity in the lake of fire

I love telling Christian that I deconverted because the Holy Spirit guided me into the truth that Christianity is false. If they say no that's not true and it's Satan who deceived me, then i say they just committed the "Unfogiveable Sin". They blasphemed against God and the HS. Theyre going to Hell for eternity

 

2. But Jesus payed the penalty for us? So they say

Here's my take on the whole sacrifice for us... forgive me for it's a little lengthy

 

so what was the sacrifice? what i see: god creates man. didnt like what they were doing so he wiped out everyone in a flood except for 8 people. he still couldnt get it right so he impregnated a 14 year old girl with himself. he bears a child with this girl and calls his son himself. he gets tortured for half-a-day, then dies. supposedly he suffered for humans but doesnt even spend time in hell. a normal person would be there for eternity, but he was there for a couple of days and then is rasied on the 3rd day. then he goes up to heaven even more powerful than before, where he gets to sit at the right hand of himself. anybody else see what i see?

 

the stories and myths of jesus [birth, miracles, resurrection, etc.] is not original to christianity. one only has to look up jesus somewhere like wikipedia to see that the myths are parallel, and if not, come from other pagan beliefs. the whole story i mention up above is absurd as one can see. once cant deny what i said because all of it is true.

 

i will boldly say that those who believe so much in jesus as our savior either never REALLY read the whole bible, or they do mental gymnastics to make the bible fit their belief.

 

we usually are told he suffered for our sins. he bore the full weight. he was tortured huh? what about the countless number of people in human history who were tortured? in jesus' time, people were crucified way longer than he was. they were left on the cross for days! what about the P.O.W.s who were tortured for yeaaaaaaars. john mcain can tell you all about his story. what about the millions of people around the world who live in poverty, famine, oppresive governments, and war? they have to go through that for a lifetime! and when they die, no resurrection... just a life in eternal hell. did jesus go to hell for an eternity? no. so how did he suffer and bear the full weight for us? like i said, he suffered half-a-day, spent 2 days in hell, rose again to be more powerful than he was originally, then got to go to heaven. youre still telling me that he suffered?

 

if anybody actually read the bible, then they'd know jesus wasnt allowed to be sacrificed in the first place. the new testament states that jesus had to be sacrificed to fulfull the law [matt 5:17] and to purge the law with his blood because the remission of sins requires it [heb 9:22].

 

let's examine the law that he was supposed to fulfull shall we to be a candidate for sacrifice you have to:

1- be a "clean" animal [lev 4], but humans were not listed as clean. that should automatically rule jesus out, but just in case, let's continue...

2- animal must be unblemished [lev 22:22], but jesus was whipped, beaten, etc.

3- offering must be done at an altar, and the sacrifice must die due to blood loss. the blood is then poured out onto the altar and the offering is then burned. we all know this didnt happen to jesus.

4- last and most importantly, the sacrifice must be made/presided by a levite priest. no levitical priest offered or ritualized jesus.

 

jesus in no way fulfilled any mosaic law. the new testament also twists the old testament teachings by claiming jesus was the lamb of god who takes away the sins of the world. the same lamb used for passover [1 cor 5:7, john 1:29]. the old testament states that the lamb is not a sacrifice for sin atonement. the blood was used as paint on the doorframes to identify the israelites. they were the ones to be spared during the plagues [exo 12].

 

jesus came for the jews. he was supposed to be their messiah. if all that the bible says happened, then why dont the jews, to this day, dont believe in jesus, or accept him as THEIR savior?

 

the new testament writers could not fool the jews into believing these concocted claims, they turned their evangelizing efforts to the greeks and other non-jews who had no detailed knowledge of god's laws as defined by the old testament. non-jews had little or no interest in looking up god's laws in the jewish scriptures to see if they matched the claims of the christian writers.

 

some final scriptures to ponder:

what paul said:

Acts 4:12

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name(Jesus) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

what god said:

Isa 42:8

I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

 

Isa 43:11-12

Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

 

job 9:32-33

...for he [god] is not a man as i am that i may answer him, that we may go to court together. there is no umpire [mediator... i.e. someone like jesus] between us, who may lay his hand upon us both.

 

the only old testament prophecy jesus and paul fulfilled:

 

Deut 13:1-5,18

if there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the lord your god proveth you, to know whether ye love the lord your god with all your heart and with all your soul. ye shall walk after the lord your god, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. and that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death;

 

Deut 18:20-22

but the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. and if thou say in thine heart, how shall we know the word which the lord hath not spoken? when a prophet speaketh in the name of the lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

[Misterspock1]

You know, that is a damn good question. How does "bearing the sin of the world to Calvary" possibly equal the eternal torment of the whole world? Jesus didn't spend a single day in Hell, yet he supposedly took our punishment upon himself.

 

The answer you'll probably get is because he was God, and bearing any sin upon him, albeit the sin of the entire world, would be such great misery and punishment as to be unbearable for anyone of divine descent. Can I get a BS call?

 

I mean really, it's like Bill Gates having to fly coach, or Warren Buffett having to stay at a two-star hotel. It's torture!

[Fweethawt]

Like I've said before, if christ's dying and going into hell actually did pay for "The Sins of The World™", he would be the only person in hell for all of eternity according to Biblical Law™.

 

So, his "sacrifice" is nothing more than another biblical sidetrack. And it's another reason for believers to hate people who disagree with it based solely on Biblical Facts™.

[pandora]

Christians justify hell as fair.I debated with couple of christians saying.

 

1. What is the wages of blasphemy?

= An eternity in the lake of fire

Ricky, Isn't the only unforgiveable sin blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? I think this is to go against things we have come to hold as sacred, such as respect for life.

 

 

So, in your view, would someone who has had an abortion perhaps have commited the unforgiveable sin? What exactly does that mean in real life terms?

[freeday]

 

 

jesus came for the jews. he was supposed to be their messiah. if all that the bible says happened, then why dont the jews, to this day, dont believe in jesus, or accept him as THEIR savior?

 

the new testament writers could not fool the jews into believing these concocted claims, they turned their evangelizing efforts to the greeks and other non-jews who had no detailed knowledge of god's laws as defined by the old testament. non-jews had little or no interest in looking up god's laws in the jewish scriptures to see if they matched the claims of the christian writers.

 

 

it is my belief, that the reason they do not accept him was the reason he was crucified. Other than the fact that the chief preist were after him due to the threat of political power. the common jew rejected him because they wanted an earthly savior to restore there kindom as he had done so many times in the OT. But this was not God's plan this time. to my knowlegde, both judiasm and islam reffer to Jesus as a great prophet. how could he be a prophet. he was either what he claimed to be, or just another lunatic in search of power. if you look at the historical parties of the times, i think the orthodox jew was a product of the political parties of the pharisees, zealots and essenes. that is my interpritation of it anyway.

[Skankboy]

how could he be a prophet. he was either what he claimed to be, or just another lunatic in search of power.

 

Or... and there's always an "or"...the claims in the Bible were written by people trying to portray jesus in a specific manner (ie as the messiah). A prophet speaks for god. The only idea that jesus speaks of that would different than the "standard" prophet are the statements that many interpret to mean Jesus thought he was the literal son of god. I can easily counter that he was describing a state of being and that we are all "sons of god." If so, he would be an Essene or Gnostic prophet, which goes quite well with the rest of how the character is portrayed.

 

Once you remove Paul (who never even met jesus), the gospel stories tell a vastly different story than what has become the accepted interpretation today.

 

Liar or Lunatic isn't a valid argument. It assumes a validity to the texts that simply cannot exist...

 

IMOHO,

[pandora]

 

it is my belief, that the reason they do not accept him was the reason he was crucified. Other than the fact that the chief preist were after him due to the threat of political power. the common jew rejected him because they wanted an earthly savior to restore there kindom as he had done so many times in the OT. But this was not God's plan this time. to my knowlegde, both judiasm and islam reffer to Jesus as a great prophet. how could he be a prophet. he was either what he claimed to be, or just another lunatic in search of power. if you look at the historical parties of the times, i think the orthodox jew was a product of the political parties of the pharisees, zealots and essenes. that is my interpritation of it anyway.

 

Liar, lunatic, or lord, eh? How about legend? Is it possible that others lied about him, either intentionally or unintentionally?

[Amanda]

Christians justify hell as fair.I debated with couple of christians saying.

 

1. What is the wages of blasphemy?

= An eternity in the lake of fire

Ricky, Isn't the only unforgiveable sin blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? I think this is to go against things we have come to hold as sacred, such as respect for life.

 

 

So, in your view, would someone who has had an abortion perhaps have commited the unforgiveable sin? What exactly does that mean in real life terms?

Pandora, personally I do not believe having an abortion is wrong, as long as it is the decision of the person carrying the embryo and not inflicted onto her. I think what we have come to consider "sacred" is a respect for each other, stemming from loving our neighbor as ourself... such as don't lie, steal, fraud, pedophilia, rape, murder, etc. However, even then there are sometimes exceptions to some of these rules, and I believe ultimately all can be forgiven while still holding people accountable and responsible.

 

Perhaps there are many spirits today. There is the spirit of patriotism, of giving, of Martin Luther King, etc. Perhaps in those days, they were establishing a spirit of what is to be held sacred, a holy spirit to bring reverence to such things. Perhaps it was linked to their emotions, and what gave strength to their vital force for the will to thrive was spiritual life and what drained it was spiritual death. Maybe this is evolving as we become more knowledgeable.

[pandora]

Thanks. I knew you didn't mean what I thought you meant, so I just wanted clarification. Your responses are always interesting.

[EdwardAbbey]

Christians justify hell as fair.I debated with couple of christians saying.

 

1. What is the wages of blasphemy?

= An eternity in the lake of fire

 

 

 

I like Dan Barkers take on the blasphemy concept. He says it is a victimless crime.

 

In short, it's pure bullshit. and so is the concept of a holy spirit. both are pure bullshit.

 

 

[Antlerman]

he was either what he claimed to be, or just another lunatic in search of power.

Sound's like a Josh McDowell argument straight out of Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Let's add another possiblity to the only two choices Mr. Josh offered in his book: His followers who greatly admired him created a whole mythological perspective and theology surrounding the events. Ever have someone you loved so much you never really saw who they were for reason of your rose-colored glasses? Does your perception make them a "liar" because they weren't who you thought they were?

 

That's just one example of many possibilites beyond what Mr. Josh tricks himself and his readers into believing by making it only one of two choices.

 

The answer you'll probably get is because he was God, and bearing any sin upon him, albeit the sin of the entire world, would be such great misery and punishment as to be unbearable for anyone of divine descent. Can I get a BS call?

I’m sure someone else has realized this conundrum before now, that if Christ, being God, took upon himself sin and became sin for us, then for those 3 days God was polluted in his essence with sin. Perfection would have become imperfect, which would now make it imperfect in a perfect sense. God was full of sin once in his past, if we are to accept this theology.

 

Now I suppose it will be argued that it was his humanity that was made sin for us. It was his humanity that suffered torture for us. In which case, back we are full circle…. His suffering could not have exceeded our because it was not on the level as God, and our sufferings as humans exceeded his: 12 years of cancer sufferings to 6 hours of crucifiction; 3 days in hell to eterntiy in hell for those who can't quite accept myth as science, etc.

 

So much easier to say their understanding of these matters is flawed then to try to justify an adopted believe from an unrelated culture to our own from 2000 years in the past.

[JeffXL]

 

 

jesus came for the jews. he was supposed to be their messiah. if all that the bible says happened, then why dont the jews, to this day, dont believe in jesus, or accept him as THEIR savior?

 

the new testament writers could not fool the jews into believing these concocted claims, they turned their evangelizing efforts to the greeks and other non-jews who had no detailed knowledge of god's laws as defined by the old testament. non-jews had little or no interest in looking up god's laws in the jewish scriptures to see if they matched the claims of the christian writers.

 

 

it is my belief, that the reason they do not accept him was the reason he was crucified. Other than the fact that the chief preist were after him due to the threat of political power. the common jew rejected him because they wanted an earthly savior to restore there kindom as he had done so many times in the OT. But this was not God's plan this time. to my knowlegde, both judiasm and islam reffer to Jesus as a great prophet. how could he be a prophet. he was either what he claimed to be, or just another lunatic in search of power. if you look at the historical parties of the times, i think the orthodox jew was a product of the political parties of the pharisees, zealots and essenes. that is my interpritation of it anyway.

 

RHemtron has it right. SaulPaul really Hellenized Je$u$, stealing phrases used to praise the divine emperor.

 

Most important, the Jews know that Jesus is no Messiah because he did not fulfill OT prophecies:

 

http://wwww.messiahtruth.com/wanted.html

 

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosoph...Jesus$.asp

 

Ah, the "Lord/Lunatic/Liar" gambit. That's from the morally and intellectually bankrupt C.S. Lewis, who was very fond of false dilemmas. Don't recall if it's from 'Mere Christianity' (Dan Barker has a better name for it: 'Mere Assertions') or 'Surprised by Joy.'

 

Though Jesus was a liar, he was a bit confused, too. Christians seem to think he's the Savior for the world, but he says in Matthew 15:24 that he's only here for the lost sheep of Israel.

 

By the way, the Jews do *not* recognize Jesus as a prophet-- or much else.

[Amanda]

Sound's like a Josh McDowell argument straight out of Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Let's add another possiblity to the only two choices Mr. Josh offered in his book: His followers who greatly admired him created a whole mythological perspective and theology surrounding the events. Ever have someone you loved so much you never really saw who they were for reason of your rose-colored glasses? Does your perception make them a "liar" because they weren't who you thought they were?

 

Antlerman, I've thought that maybe there are these myths superimposed on Jesus as he was accepted by the different cultures around the world. It is much like St. Nicholas to Santa Claus. There is the Kris Kringle and other myths superimposed on St. Nicholas, not to mention the capitalistic pursuits too. Fortunately there have been no political perversions, much like I suspect was used of Christianity. Plus I think there are the rose colored glasses too.

 

Perhaps there is an original story to Jesus that is much more endearing than the one we have popularized in modern times. Just like I think the original story of St. Nicholas is much more awesome than the traditional perception we have today.

[Mythra]

Sound's like a Josh McDowell argument straight out of Evidence that Demands a Verdict.

 

Jeff is right. The whole Lord/Liar/Lunatic argument originated with C.S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity".

McDowell just warms it back up and sells a few million $ worth of books.

 

The whole problem with that argument - is that it begins with the assumption that the gospels are true. That Jesus did everything and said everything as recorded in the gospels. Circular methodology proves absolutely nothing.

 

Maybe the choice should be Lord/Liar/Lunatic/Allegory/Archetype/Midrash/Mythos/Wet Dream.

 

 

 

 

Wet Dream?

 

I wonder if that would be considered blasphemy...

 

Hope they give me a good shot of demerol before they pull out my tongue, burn out my eyes with a hot skewer and roast me at the stake.

 

All for the love of sweet Jesus.

[julian]

The sacrifice of Jesus unless believed on and accepted in a personal way won't amount to a hill of means if it means nothing to you in the first place.

 

It's like Vinnie Barbarino of the sweat hogs fame in "Welcome Back Kotter."

 

Jesus?

 

Who?

What?

Whrn?

Why?

 

Well IMO, the basis for thinking we are sinful is mistaken, the notion that we need to be saved is mistaken, the belief that the supposed "saviour" existed is mistaken and the supposed "saviour" himself is mistaken.

 

That's just my take on it. Did I leave anything out?

[garrisonjj]

Christians justify hell as fair.I debated with couple of christians saying.

 

1. What is the wages of blasphemy?

= An eternity in the lake of fire

 

2. But Jesus payed the penalty for us?

So they say

 

3. My conclusion - If the penalty for sin is eternal torment, and Jesus took the penalty for all the sinners,How come jesus didnt even spend 1 day in a fiery lake?After all that is the punishment which he decided to take upon himself.

 

They just replied with with a louwsy statement. The crusifiction of the son of God,Is equal to a eternity in the flames of hell.Yeah right!!!

 

 

Also I told them That the murder who was crucified probably had the same punishment as jesus his crucifiction is not even enough to pay for his sins yet jesus who had the same punishment,his death could cover all he sinners sins.How fair is that

 

 

JEEEEEEEEZUS fuckin christ! What kind of swim trunks do I wear in that fuckin fiery lake?

[Bluesman]

The sacrifice of Jesus unless believed on and accepted in a personal way won't amount to a hill of means if it means nothing to you in the first place.

 

NO! Your wrong. Unless you declare that there is only one God, and Mohammad was his Prophet, then you will go to Hell and burn forever with the other infedels!!!!!!!!

 

Now, do you see how stupid it is to preach to someone who does not share your beliefs

[Mythra]

JEEEEEEEEZUS fuckin christ! What kind of swim trunks do I wear in that fuckin fiery lake?

 

I highly recommend the asbestos with the chili pepper motif.

[Ouroboros]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, yet I think the crucifiction is to portray a principle. If the biblical stories are taken literally, of course they're nonsense, IMO. However, the character of Jesus was to show how to live within, in heaven, nirvana, no matter what the outside environment is about. Maybe heaven and hell are just internal states... and forgiveness/compassion, different than condoning or excusing, is the way to escape hell, if you want to accept and believe these principles.

A little side track here by your favorite side stepper!

 

You know the cross symbol is basically from the zodiac. The sun symbol in the middle of the circle, with the cross sign from the lines between the equinoxes and the solstices. The cross is the symbol of the astrological connection of the Sun God and the 12 Months. The mediator. So the cross in itself is Jesus, the symbol that connects the high god and the humanity. From inside to outside. From the inner of our soul to the outer reality. (Damn I'm deep. I'll better log of and make some coffee instead... )

[Young Mother Atheist]

Actually, I think there might be a verse or two in the Bible that at least imply that Jesus went down to hell for a day or something...maybe that's just doctrine. I don't care enough to look it up.

 

And just a thought...soul's can't feel anything, right? People always say that people won't feel anything in Heaven, so you wouldn't feel anything in Hell.

 

Plus, the only part of you that lives on after you are dead is your atoms. That's why you should be cremated so you can go back into the Earth (instead of taking up valuable underground space and preserving your dead body forever).

[Misterspock1]

Actually, I think there might be a verse or two in the Bible that at least imply that Jesus went down to hell for a day or something...maybe that's just doctrine. I don't care enough to look it up.

 

I know there is a passage in Revelation somewhere (toward the beginning, I believe...?) that is the words of Jesus talking about holding the keys to death and Hades, which implies that he went there to get them. Otherwise, I am not sure how justified that doctrine really is.

 

And just a thought...soul's can't feel anything, right? People always say that people won't feel anything in Heaven, so you wouldn't feel anything in Hell.

 

Another very good point. How can we experience physical pain without a physical body? There are only two arguments against this. Either we have a physical body after death and can experience pain (which defies logic even further, and it also means that sinful bodies would be in the presence of God), or the pain we will experience will be entirely spiritual (giving fuel to the argument that Hell is just a state of mind).

 

Plus, the only part of you that lives on after you are dead is your atoms. That's why you should be cremated so you can go back into the Earth (instead of taking up valuable underground space and preserving your dead body forever).

 

You think we'd start to run out of ground space for bodies eventually, wouldn't you? Plus, cremation is more hygenic than having bodies lie in the ground and be eaten by bugs and fungus. The whole issue for burial is for proper "rites", but all those are are just antiquated traditions (like Christianity). The way I see it, the body will be returning to atoms one way or another, so why waste so much space and money on a burial plot and casket?

[Lycorth]

I mean really, it's like Bill Gates having to fly coach, or Warren Buffett having to stay at a two-star hotel. It's torture!

 

That's a big part of it. Xians chirp about the "awfulness" of the Cruci-fiction™ because they love to posit the notion that their god is sooo holy and sooo righteous and sooo good that for him to suffer anything, much less on account of humanity, is degrading enough to him. Just having to come down here on Earth in a yucky physical body and have to endure even a second of harassment from any member of the human race was so unbearable for him, that the Cruci-fiction™ was just the icing on the cake.

 

It goes back to the Xian desire to pump up the holier-than-thou image of thier god. Like a deranged form of hero worship, the exaltation of an idol and the praising of that idol to the Nth degree even though the qualities for which the idol is being praised in reality are nowhere near the description of them given by the hero-worshippers.

 

Xians are taught to hate themselves so much that they have to transfer all the love they'd normally have for themselves to their god. Little wonder the Xian era of western civilization has presided over the rise of lunatic asylums and electro-shock therapy