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Goodbye Jesus

What - An - Ass!


Fweethawt

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I firmly believe that animals deserve the same respect as humans. Yes, accidents happen and it's a fact of life that animals die, but this kind of thing is unexcusable.

 

Agreed, sweet Jesus, agreed.

 

Part of this is what makes me a Buddhist. In Christianity you can be a total asshole but as long as you believe in Jeebus you're saved. No punishment ever, even if you kill someone and never feel sorry for it. In Buddhism you WILL pay for your heartlessness. That is what keeps me from murdering murderers. I know what he's got coming, and I don't want it to come to me!

 

When I was a Christian I was the most selfish bitch, and I thought it was all perfectly excusable because God forgave me. Now I see things a bit differently.

 

Out here in the boonies I see people hit animals all the time. You'd be shocked at the number of people who proudly put their smiling, camoflaged children's picture in the paper, "Here's Billy at the local Father-Son deer hunt, only eight years old and he shot that beautiful buck right off the bat! I'm so proud of him!" Yay, your kid mutilates those who cannot protect themselves. What a winner.

 

Usually when you see something beautiful you want to keep it alive, unless you're some kind of deranged serial killer who loves beautiful women so much you stab them to death. But when it's beautiful animals you're killing it's somehow perfectly acceptable.

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Out here in the boonies I see people hit animals all the time. You'd be shocked at the number of people who proudly put their smiling, camoflaged children's picture in the paper, "Here's Billy at the local Father-Son deer hunt, only eight years old and he shot that beautiful buck right off the bat! I'm so proud of him!" Yay, your kid mutilates those who cannot protect themselves. What a winner.

 

Right. Because criticizing them for not sharing your values makes you so much better. :Hmm:

 

There is nothing inherently wrong with hunting. It may be true that we don't need to do it for survival anymore, but unnecessary=/=unethical.

 

For most people, hunting is as much about forming a bond with companions as harvesting game. I haven't been hunting in years, ever since I got out of high school and all my hunting buddies moved away; and every old sportsman I know has returned home from dozens of hunting trips during which they didn't see so much as a shed antler and still considered it a success because they were able to get away and make some more memories with their friends.

 

I could carry this post to the extent part of me wants to and extol the values of hunting and the necessary part it plays in wildlife management, but Fwee has stated that he doesn't want this thread to devolve into a debate over hunting, so I'll digress.

 

Suffice to say, I have no problem with people who don't wish to hunt. It's just as fully their right to make that decision as it is mine to choose the opposite. Agree to disagree, live and let live. What I do get bent out of shape over is the folks who try to convince myself and others that I'm somehow less of a person because I choose to engage responsibly in a sport that I enjoy.

 

If you don't like hunting, that's your perogative. It's not my place to try to sell you on the sport, and I'd probably be wasting my time anyway. However, don't think I'll sit idly by and let you slander the activity simply because you find it distasteful. It may not be perfect, it may not be for everyone, but that doesn't mean it's totally without merit.

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Have to agree with woodie (heh, I said "woodie") on his hunting position. There are clean and quick methods of killing game, and so long as you actually eat what you kill, you're not being wasteful - which would be the real crime.

 

Many peoples today still hunt - some still need to. Would we criticize the Native American hunting traditions, or the sea-born version known as "fishing" that many, such as the Eskimos, must rely on to stay alive? Of course, most of these sort of people are also doing it to keep their traditions alive, but that's part of the vibrancy of these folk.

 

Nonetheless, unless hunting is done in a cruel fashion, a wasteful fashion, or to the point of wiping out an entire species, I don't see the wrong in it. Vegetables can't defend themselves, and are also alive - why isn't it wrong to kill veggies via harvesting and grind them up in our mouths?

 

It's all perspective. No one has to approve of it, but unless it's done in an objectionable fashion, no one should waste breath complaining about a non-issue, either.

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Have to agree with woodie (heh, I said "woodie")

 

I see my plan is working... :wicked:

 

:lmao:

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Guest Shiva H. Vishnu

I'm sure I'll get an immediate deluge of dissent, but, to me, to kill an animal when you don't have to do it, but are doing it just for the enjoyment you get from the act of killing an animal, doesn't seem right. Guys can bond during any number of activities that don't revolve around killing animals, so that doesn't seem like a valid reason to kill for fun, to me. I could postulate several reasons as to why a person might enjoy the act of killing something, but I won't because I'm sure to piss several people off if I do.

 

Maybe if you're hunting sharks with frikkin lasers on their backs with only a harpoon gun you might have a case for just being a man with huge balls who doen't know what else to do about it, at least nothing that doesn't involve killing shit. But hunting furry little herbivores with a rifle and high powered scope, or even a bow for that matter (have you seen these things! They're like crazy, bionic projectil hurling machines now, not bows and arrows) what does that do for you other than make the hairs on your taint stand on end because you finally exercised power over something, even if it's helpless? Kill for thrill? Isn't that what serial killers do?

 

:HaHa:

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Ya ever notice how (probaley) every hunter is a Christian?

 

There's the potential for a very ugly situation developing out of this comment.

 

Trust me, you don't want to go there.

 

Yeah, that one pissed me off.

 

There were hunters before there were Christians and unless someone here can find a way to turn Christians into meat that I'd care to eat, that's the way it's going to be.

 

Hunters as a group contribute more to wildlife conservation than any other group.

 

Additionally as early herbivorous man transitioned to modern omnivorous man, his brain also increased in size relative to his body weight.

 

Fwee,

 

I imagine there were no skid marks before the carcasses? If not, I would say it was someone driving a larger vehicle, possibly a truck, SUV, or semi. SUVs don't generally have grill guards, so it was most likely a truck (especially if the group was not scattered much), and if it was a truck it was likely a white male driver in a mid to pre 80's vehicle, and if it was a more inexpensive vehicle then it was likely owned by a person aged 17-22.

 

That is what makes them a Christian.

 

:lmao:

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Ya ever notice how (probaley) every hunter is a Christian?

 

There's the potential for a very ugly situation developing out of this comment.

 

Trust me, you don't want to go there.

 

Yeah, that one pissed me off.

 

There were hunters before there were Christians and unless someone here can find a way to turn Christians into meat that I'd care to eat, that's the way it's going to be.

 

Hunters as a group contribute more to wildlife conservation than any other group.

 

My fiancee hunts. She isn't any good at it, but she tries :) And she's about as un-Xian as you can get.

 

One of my friends is a nominal Xian, on the other hand. He's totally against hunting.

 

I know a good half-dozen examples of each in my personal life, so I don't think Xianity and hunting have any correlation :shrug:

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I have had two serious run ins with deer in my driving career. On both occasions the deer ran right though my driver's side window shattering it in my face. In Michigan car deer accidents happen everywhere. On my way to work I see a least a couple mangled deer carasses each and every day, and I know it's only a matter of time before it happens to me again. Because of the danger deer present to drivers all over our state, I think we need more deer hunting. I am not a hunter myself, but we really do need to thin out the heard in Michigan for the safety of the drivers.

 

One of the most obscene things I have ever seen is when I was flipping though the channels and stumbled upon one of those outdoor/hunting programs. This famous hunter was recounting his young daughter's first baffalo hunt. They rolled the video and it was just so sad. Here stands this group of buffalo eating grass with no fear what so ever of the humans standing 50 yards away. They were like cows in a field. This little girl was too small to hold a gun, so her father had it mounted on a tripod. She took aim and blew this helpless critter away. I almost cried as this huge beast went down. Yet the father and daughter were celebrating. For shits sake, that was just like shooting a family pet. I mean if you are going to hunt, do it with an actual wild animal who stands somewhat of a chance.

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Lots of good points made here, but I'm going to address one topic in specific with this post.

 

It's time for this myth about prey animals being defenseless to be dispelled. They most certainly do have defenses. They may not be direct or aggressive defenses like other animals have, but they have them all the same. They have heightened senses with which to detect predators, their skin is shaded to act as natural camouflage, they can run very far over rugged terrain at a steady high speed, they can use said terrain--which they invariably know a lot better than we do--to lose us in the pursuit, and for most big game, when worse comes to worst, they can try to gore the offender with their antlers and cut flesh to ribbons with their hooves. There are probably others I've missed, but that's enough to prove my point.

 

Humans are really no better at hunting game animals than any of their more regular predators. We can't track prey by scent, we can't hear them shifting their weight in a bush a hundred yards or more away, we can't usually see them from a distance of several miles and we can't close to within range to deliver the fatal blow anywhere nearly as quick as other predators--at least, not without alerting every living thing for acres around to our presence by firing up an automobile or ATV. In fact, it could be argued that the only thing we're really any better at is killing our prey--but that's something humanity's excelled at for nearly as long as we've been around, and it's far from limited to game animals alone.

 

For prey animals, (sometimes more than) half the battle exists in not being spotted by a hungry predator in the first place--that's a very large part of their defense, as well as the reason why said defenses have developed so far toward exactly that purpose.

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The "magic" of firearms hasn't worn off on humanity, it would seem. Just because we have big sticks that go *boom* it makes us look like we're way more powerful than we are.

 

The only power is in the gun, there.

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Right. Because criticizing them for not sharing your values makes you so much better. :Hmm:

 

Suffice to say, I have no problem with people who don't wish to hunt. It's just as fully their right to make that decision as it is mine to choose the opposite. Agree to disagree, live and let live. What I do get bent out of shape over is the folks who try to convince myself and others that I'm somehow less of a person because I choose to engage responsibly in a sport that I enjoy.

 

For Woody.

1. I'm not against hunting.

 

2. Eventhough she was very rude about how she voiced her criticism, she should be able to do so. This is Rants and Replies, and as such is, IMHO, more about emotion than reason. It is here where we get to expose what ever mind virus we are suffering from. IMHO, mind viruses expsose themselves via black and white thinking.

 

Usually when you see something beautiful you want to keep it alive, unless you're some kind of deranged serial killer who loves beautiful women so much you stab them to death. But when it's beautiful animals you're killing it's somehow perfectly acceptable.

 

Black and White thinking Sage. Sages should know better. Don't you think?

 

Men hunt if they can. The desire is in their genes, and in their culture. Get used to it. The fact that hunting has been perverted by Mother Culture is not thier individual fault. If you want to change it, raise your sons differently. Remember as old chef always says, "Women get the men their mothers raised."

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I'm sure I'll get an immediate deluge of dissent, but, to me, to kill an animal when you don't have to do it, but are doing it just for the enjoyment you get from the act of killing an animal, doesn't seem right. Guys can bond during any number of activities that don't revolve around killing animals, so that doesn't seem like a valid reason to kill for fun, to me. I could postulate several reasons as to why a person might enjoy the act of killing something, but I won't because I'm sure to piss several people off if I do.

 

Maybe if you're hunting sharks with frikkin lasers on their backs with only a harpoon gun you might have a case for just being a man with huge balls who doen't know what else to do about it, at least nothing that doesn't involve killing shit. But hunting furry little herbivores with a rifle and high powered scope, or even a bow for that matter (have you seen these things! They're like crazy, bionic projectil hurling machines now, not bows and arrows) what does that do for you other than make the hairs on your taint stand on end because you finally exercised power over something, even if it's helpless? Kill for thrill? Isn't that what serial killers do?

 

:HaHa:

 

I'm playing right into your prophecy of dissent, but I suppose it can't be helped. I can see where you're coming from and can actually respect your opinion on the issue, I simply wish to set right one misconception.

 

I can't speak for everyone, of course, but for myself the thrill does not come from the kill. Once a shot has been fired and it's plain my prey is going down, that's when the wave of relief passes over me and the adrenaline that's been madly pumping through my veins finally starts to burn out. It's from the hunt that the thrill is derived. Hearing a rustling in the trees, stalking my prey, hearing a grunt or call and knowing I'm close; these are the things that get my blood pumping furiously in excitement. Making the kill is the signal to my body that it's okay to come down now.

 

I have had two serious run ins with deer in my driving career. On both occasions the deer ran right though my driver's side window shattering it in my face. In Michigan car deer accidents happen everywhere. On my way to work I see a least a couple mangled deer carasses each and every day, and I know it's only a matter of time before it happens to me again. Because of the danger deer present to drivers all over our state, I think we need more deer hunting. I am not a hunter myself, but we really do need to thin out the heard in Michigan for the safety of the drivers.

 

Thank you, this is another point I've been wanting to make.

 

Hunting is not done just for the thrill or the bonding experience anymore. Our intereference in the natural process of things has made it a duty as much as a privilige. We did such a good job of wiping out our predatory competition--exterminating wolves, bears, cougars and all the other big carnivores who are the regular predators of big game animals--that their numbers are no longer strong enough to maintain the natural order. In one of our greatest moments of egoism as a species we seriously fucked up the balance of nature, and we haven't set it right since. That being the case, until such time as the big carnivores are restored to sufficient numbers (which I'm doubtful will ever happen, as too many of us are either still to stubborn to admit we screwed up or have too much invested in the current Way Things Are), it's up to us to assume their mantle and take over the responsibility of maintaining the balance of nature--because if we don't we're staring down a very long and dark road of overpopulation, overgrazing, mass starvation, a dramatic increase in traffic accidents and "pest" problems, disease and a whole host of other unpleasant possibilities.

 

Whether we like it or not, this is our mess to clean up. Would you like it to be delegated to officials of the state who approach it like a job, simply slaughtering X animals each year to keep the herds in check? Or would you rather it be handled by people who care; people who have not only the vested interest in maintaining the balance shared by all life, but who also hold a deep and abiding love for nature and the wild places and creatures of the world--i.e. biologists, outdoor enthusiasts, conservationists, and yes, hunters. As a matter of fact, nearly every hunter I know qualifies for the latter 3 of those titles, and a few of them carry "biologist" in their bag as well.

 

It's my experience that most people who dislike hunters and think hunting is not only unnecessary but cruel and sadistic have never been hunting themselves, and have never spent much time around hunters. These people usually live in big cities where the closest they ever come to wildlife is seeing the pigeons roosting in the overpasses, or maybe an occasional squirrel running up a tree in the pathetic square-block of park area that passes for the outdoors in that urban nightmare. The same people who, if taken into the wilderness for a week with naught but a tent and enough food and water to last them would do nothing but complain unceasingly of boredom, bugs and strange noises in the night. Also, ironically enough, the same people who scream and shout about the cruelty and injustice killing a game animal who's lived a free and happy life for many years in the wilderness--but who have no qualms about buying a slab of beef from the supermarket that only a few weeks ago was a young cow fed with pieces of its own species, pumped full of growth hormones, living in shit in a stall barely large enough to fit it.

 

As Jackson said, hunters, as a group, contribute more time, money and effort to to wildlife and wilderness conservation than anyone else--probably several hundred times than any rabid "environmentalist" organization like PETA or Green Peace. Hunters are the people who dream of working as rangers in our national parks or game wardens everywhere else. Responsible hunters are very serious about policing their own ranks, reporting poachers, cleaning up litter, etc. After all, we're the people who deal with the wild on a regular basis, who want to come back and enjoy it year after year and take steps to ensure our and others' children can do the same generations from now.

 

There is a lot more to our hunting traditions and heritage than a mindless, primitive bloodlust. It is a part of our culture, it teaches respect for nature and the responsibility of caring for it, it is an unfortunately necessary part of maintaining the balance, and for many people it teaches a greater respect for all living beings.

 

One of the most obscene things I have ever seen is when I was flipping though the channels and stumbled upon one of those outdoor/hunting programs. This famous hunter was recounting his young daughter's first baffalo hunt. They rolled the video and it was just so sad. Here stands this group of buffalo eating grass with no fear what so ever of the humans standing 50 yards away. They were like cows in a field. This little girl was too small to hold a gun, so her father had it mounted on a tripod. She took aim and blew this helpless critter away. I almost cried as this huge beast went down. Yet the father and daughter were celebrating. For shits sake, that was just like shooting a family pet. I mean if you are going to hunt, do it with an actual wild animal who stands somewhat of a chance.

 

Conversely, this is also an excellent point, and a rather perfect description of the fine line an ethical hunter treads every day. When I was still a Mormon and ignorant of so very much (even moreso than now), I wanted to try to draw out for the bison hunt, but anymore I'm not so sure I'd wish to. As you so well demonstrated, there is a very clear distinction between hunting an animal born into a world full of predators and raised with the alertness necessary for survival and an animal that is part of a species slowly backing down from the brink of extinction.

 

This is why, as with all other aspects of life, the teaching of responsibility and the need to judge each situation based on its own merits is important. I defend hunting with full conviction, and it's precisely because of that that I won't give a free pass to anyone abusing it. An understanding of the ethics involved and unwavering responsibility are absolutely vital.

 

 

Right. Because criticizing them for not sharing your values makes you so much better. :Hmm:

 

Suffice to say, I have no problem with people who don't wish to hunt. It's just as fully their right to make that decision as it is mine to choose the opposite. Agree to disagree, live and let live. What I do get bent out of shape over is the folks who try to convince myself and others that I'm somehow less of a person because I choose to engage responsibly in a sport that I enjoy.

 

For Woody.

1. I'm not against hunting.

 

2. Eventhough she was very rude about how she voiced her criticism, she should be able to do so. This is Rants and Replies, and as such is, IMHO, more about emotion than reason. It is here where we get to expose what ever mind virus we are suffering from. IMHO, mind viruses expsose themselves via black and white thinking.

 

Thanks, Chef. I needed the reality check. :thanks:

 

This goes for everyone else, too. Hunting is (quite obviously) a subject I care very much about, and as such I'm afraid I'm all too likely to let my passion for it get the better of me and usurp rational thought. If/when I say something out of line or untrue, please call me on it. I would much rather suffer the temporary embarrassment of once again stopping my mouth up with my foot than suffer an indefinite loss of character in the eyes of my respected peers for saying something stupid in a moment of heated discussion.

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One of the most obscene things I have ever seen is when I was flipping though the channels and stumbled upon one of those outdoor/hunting programs. This famous hunter was recounting his young daughter's first baffalo hunt. They rolled the video and it was just so sad. Here stands this group of buffalo eating grass with no fear what so ever of the humans standing 50 yards away. They were like cows in a field. This little girl was too small to hold a gun, so her father had it mounted on a tripod. She took aim and blew this helpless critter away. I almost cried as this huge beast went down. Yet the father and daughter were celebrating. For shits sake, that was just like shooting a family pet. I mean if you are going to hunt, do it with an actual wild animal who stands somewhat of a chance.

 

Did they mention that bison are a protected species? Like borderline endangered?

 

As for Native Americans, they have a spiritual connection with hunting that I cannot deny. I can't say I have a problem with a culture that views the animals they hunt as sacred, and not to be wasted or disrespected or killed irreverently. Most modern American hunters, on the other hand, are in it just for the thrill, and don't regard their quarry any more highly than a target painted on a stack of hay.

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The NFWS does issue a few bison permits every year. The number available is very limited and they cost a very pretty penny, but they are issued. Naturally, as I understand it, the bulk of the money generated from these profits goes directly to funding bison conservation and aid.

 

But of course this doesn't matter because anyone who would hunt a bison (aside from Native Americans; their culture gives them a free pass. :Wendywhatever: ) is just a fen-dwelling redneck looking to get his jollies from killing a poor defenseless animal, right?

 

Your near-total ignorance is revealed with even greater clarity with every post you make. Your last paragraph is not only wrong, but racist. I could address those points of contention, but you've ignored every other post I've made in this thread in favor of the ones that suit your opinion, so I don't see why I should bother. You obviously have absolutely no personal experience with hunting or hunters, and just as obviously no desire to gain any. In short, you've made up your mind and don't wish to be confused by the facts.

 

Have fun with that.

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Confused by facts?

 

A stand on the killing on animals relies solely on opinion; there are no "facts" involved.

 

I'm not so full of myself that I believe I have the right to kill other creatures indiscriminately due simply to my humanity. Why is that so hard to respect?

 

Here's the thing: you can respect a person for refraining from killing, or even killing out of neccessity - but I personally cannot see how I can respect a person who kills for his or her own pleasure. I don't believe that animals are "lower" than us any more than I believe that black people are baser than whites. I view animal life as sacred as human life. And in fact there are many instances when I think animals are better than humans.

 

Some people call me some kind of nutty hippy because of that. I really just have to roll my eyes - their loss for being so stuck up. As hard as empathy is I prefer it to heartlessness.

 

As for the neccessity of hunting because of animals encroaching on human territory - whose idea was it to build a plastic housing development in the middle of wildlands? Doesn't it seem a little odd that we believe it's wrong to force and shoot people off their own property to get it ourselves, but somehow animals just don't matter and they're in OUR way? Oh glorious humanity - ever expanding, ever wasting, ever killing. Humans disgust me. "I like to kill things, it's my life." Why is it so different whether I'm killing a person or an animal? If you're using the "intelligence" argument - why is it wrong for me to kill a child or a mentally retarded person, but not for me to kill an animal?

 

And by the way, I know for a fact that Missouri breeds deer for the sole purpose of providing people with something to shoot.

 

Absolutely no experience with hunting or hunters? I didn't know that you knew my own history better than I did. I thought I did have experience with hunting and hunters. I remember as a child going to the Lake of the Ozarks every fall and my uncles always grabbing guns and rushing off to kill whatever local wildlife wandered around in the forest nearby, coming home with dead deer and squirrels and rabbits and then desperately trying to push the mangled carcasses off on the rest of the family. Why would they kill something if they didn't even need the meat? Just because they liked it? Precisely. Isn't there something wrong with that?

 

In my honest opinion, I spent many years trying to think up some logical reason for hunting animals in order to prove my uncles and father's friends all right in my eyes, and I finally gave up. There simply isn't one. Your post proves it in that you offer little arguments, only insults directed at me. If you ask me it only shows how hunters live for the attack.

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Simply being alive and having the means to do so gives one the right to kill indiscriminately. The difference between one who embraces this and one who acknowledges the power but doesn't exercise it is responsibility. I'm sorry you had that experience with irresponsible hunters growing up. There's nothing I can do to "make up" for that, nor would I pretentious enough to try even if I thought I could. However, I feel I'm justified in saying it shows a lack of wisdom to judge an entire population based upon the unpleasant actions of an unethical few. In my experience, most hunters are not like your uncles.

 

Other animals are not necessarily "lower" than humans, but neither does that mean they're the same. Recognizing this isn't discrimination or backward thinking, it's simply realistic. All our available knowledge tells us that humans and animals operate differently; taking it further and declaring them our equals requires a leap of faith I'm not willing to take.

 

If you hate your own species so much, why do you allow yourself to enjoy the comforts and advances made by them? By owning a home of your own you are invariably denying that land to the wildlife that used to live there--in effect, you are a hypocrite. Animals (other than human) move in and displace established populations all the time. Once again, the only way we differ from the rest of nature in this is we're better at it.

 

I was more acidic in my last post than I should have been, but what do you call the blanket attacks you been making against hunting and hunters throughout this thread? "Hello, Pot. My name's Kettle. Nice to meet you."

 

I have made serious arguments in every post previous to and even in that one. The funds raised and efforts made by hunters for the conservation of wilderness are anything but wasteful, and by their very nature work to stop the reckless expansion of humanity. How is that an attack, or in any way correspondent to your sentiment that humans are a plague upon the Earth?

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No, JJ, there weren't any skid marks. And the grouping was probably within a 15x15 foot square.

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For most people, hunting is as much about forming a bond with companions as harvesting game. I haven't been hunting in years, ever since I got out of high school and all my hunting buddies moved away; and every old sportsman I know has returned home from dozens of hunting trips during which they didn't see so much as a shed antler and still considered it a success because they were able to get away and make some more memories with their friends.

 

Man...couldn't you just go camping or something? :grin:

 

The problem I have with hunting is in the attitudes of the hunters themselves. I understand that man must be the main preditor now in order to have healthy heards. I also understand that man is a predator (forward facing eyes). I think most prey animals have eyes on the side of their heads for more vision capabilities. What I can't stand is (no offense here Woody) that it is seen as some sort of sport. What other animal sees its hunt as a sport? I think it's disgusting that people hang decapitated animals heads on their wall so they can flex their muscles.

 

It's all in the attitude even if the result is the same. One has respect and the other wishes they had respect.

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We could, and often do. When we have the opportunity to bring home a little extra meat to stow in the freezer for a barbeque or something, so much the better.

 

You're right that humanity is a predatory species, and as Chef stated earlier hunting is a part of our culture. People hunt all the time--it's just not always seen as such because it's not done in the wilderness with a high-power rifle, and the prey isn't a cloven-hooved herbivore. An awful lot of athletic sports mimic hunting behavior, as do office/workforce politics.

 

I don't think it's fair to ask whether other animals consider hunting a sport, as that's something we can't know. As for ourselves, it's only within the last few centuries that it was designated with the "sport" title by anyone other than the upper-classes.

 

Personally, I'm not sure what to think about the folks who pay for a taxidermy (sp) mount job anymore. I don't know whether I would it for myself, but I can't think less of those who do. It's not like it's hurting anyone--least of all the animal--and while it may be garish or in poor taste, what they choose to do with their money is their decision to make.

 

Actually, the best "trophy plaques" I've seen have usually been those with just the antlers. They're sufficient without being over-the-top (an experienced observer can learn all they need to know from the antlers alone), and IMO show a bit of class--a mature show of disgression, so to speak.

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We could, and often do. When we have the opportunity to bring home a little extra meat to stow in the freezer for a barbeque or something, so much the better.

I have no problem with that (actually, I wouldn't want to be there). I have eaten some mighty good tasting quail after being out hunting. I would no longer go, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't eat it. I just don't care for the life to death transition.

 

You're right that humanity is a predatory species, and as Chef stated earlier hunting is a part of our culture. People hunt all the time--it's just not always seen as such because it's not done in the wilderness with a high-power rifle, and the prey isn't a cloven-hooved herbivore. An awful lot of athletic sports mimic hunting behavior, as do office/workforce politics.

I would have to disagree with the sentiment that it is part of our culture. There have been many horendous things such as dog and cock fighting, bull fighting and other things that have been part of people's culture until the insanity of it all was just to much for the majority of the people. I'm still waiting for Mexico to understand the torture of their tradition.

 

I understand what you're saying, I just don't think that argument stands. Just my opinion, that's all.

 

I don't think it's fair to ask whether other animals consider hunting a sport, as that's something we can't know. As for ourselves, it's only within the last few centuries that it was designated with the "sport" title by anyone other than the upper-classes.

Well, you are probably right. My cat disgusts me when she toys with her prey. If not sport, then it appears that it's playtime. :shrug:

 

Personally, I'm not sure what to think about the folks who pay for a taxidermy (sp) mount job anymore. I don't know whether I would it for myself, but I can't think less of those who do. It's not like it's hurting anyone--least of all the animal--and while it may be garish or in poor taste, what they choose to do with their money is their decision to make.

 

Actually, the best "trophy plaques" I've seen have usually been those with just the antlers. They're sufficient without being over-the-top (an experienced observer can learn all they need to know from the antlers alone), and IMO show a bit of class--a mature show of disgression, so to speak.

To me, it has everything to do with respect. I can agree here with Sage...it's the respect the animal is given for dying in order for us to survive...originally. Did this respect die with necessity? Hanging their heads on the wall shows no respect to the animal, IMO.

 

I have a sincere question for you Woody. What is it that the experienced observer would make note of when viewing the antlers and why? I just want to see if it is something different than I imagine. I think they would be looking to see how many points and how big it must have been. Where does that lead one's thinking?

 

I want to tell a story...the place I used to work at had a dinner or lunch one day and when I went to my desk, I found a dead crawfish in there. I was horrified and terribly upset...not so much that it was dead, just the lack of respect for life that was had by the people that did it. I have no problem with people eating it, I just didn't think it was right to make a mockery of it's life. They were really sorry...

 

Fwee...sorry about the side rant!

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A few of my replies will be out of order, because (as we all well know) I'm a drama queen at heart and want to end my post with a "striking denouement!" :grin:

 

I would have to disagree with the sentiment that it is part of our culture. There have been many horendous things such as dog and cock fighting, bull fighting and other things that have been part of people's culture until the insanity of it all was just to much for the majority of the people. I'm still waiting for Mexico to understand the torture of their tradition.

 

I understand what you're saying, I just don't think that argument stands. Just my opinion, that's all.

 

Heh, no need to apologize. You make a very good point. In fact, that I'm not sure I have any kind of answer. I'll have to think on this one a while, but you may just have me licked. ;)

 

I have a sincere question for you Woody. What is it that the experienced observer would make note of when viewing the antlers and why? I just want to see if it is something different than I imagine. I think they would be looking to see how many points and how big it must have been. Where does that lead one's thinking?[/qoute]

 

You hit the nail right on the head. The only rational explanation I can think of for mounting part of a game animal's body to a wall is as a trophy, and with our knowledge of their biology an educated and/or experienced individual seeing the trophy can learn all they need to simply by examining the size of the antlers. Of course, any kind of trophy is an inherent expression of vanity (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), but including anything more than that which is necessary to show the extent of the accomplishment the trophy celebrates is, arguably, an indication of boastfulness--as if to say "I paid for the trophy, then all the trimmings, just because I can."

 

As for where this leads one's thinking to, that almost certainly depends on the individual. Some may recognize it as a mark of accomplishment. Others may see it as a distasteful boast. Still others may feel it shows disrespect to themselves or the animal. The answer to that question is likely as varied as the people on this world.

 

I want to tell a story...the place I used to work at had a dinner or lunch one day and when I went to my desk, I found a dead crawfish in there. I was horrified and terribly upset...not so much that it was dead, just the lack of respect for life that was had by the people that did it. I have no problem with people eating it, I just didn't think it was right to make a mockery of it's life. They were really sorry...

 

I'm not sure I understand; why was the crawfish in your desk? Was it a prank?

 

It seems to me the individual disrespected in this story wasn't the crawfish, it was you. As for "disrespecting the animal," I'll explain my feelings on that below.

 

To me, it has everything to do with respect. I can agree here with Sage...it's the respect the animal is given for dying in order for us to survive...originally. Did this respect die with necessity? Hanging their heads on the wall shows no respect to the animal, IMO.

 

I think part of it has to do with the shift in thinking. Native American cultures, for instance, believed that everything had a spirit which was connected to a (usually maternal) "Great Spirit" that was the source and overseer of all life and existence. The respect for the prey animal was motivated in part by this belief in an overarching spirituality.

 

In modern western society, however, you don't have that. Science, religion and culture all tell us that animals don't experience thought or feeling on a level equal with humanity, and seeing as humans haven't been able to prove anything even remotely metaphysical despite all our bells and whistles, it seems safe to ASSume there exists no such spiritual presence/awareness for other animals, either.

 

I have a deep respect and reverence for nature, and I show that respect by doing my best not to interfere with or negatively effect the natural order. When I hunt, I show respect for my prey by making the kill as quick and painless as possible. Once life has gone out of the creature, however, I see no reason to hold to some superstitious belief that to use its body in whatever way seems fit to me is somehow disrespectful. You may feel that stuffing and mounting its head to a wall plaque is poor taste, but that's an entirely different discussion.

 

I must ask, disrespectful to what? The animal is dead. It's not coming back. It has no further use for the physical body. If there is some disconnected metaphysical being floating around in Neverland, it either can't do anything to express any displeasure at the way I'm using its body or it doesn't care, so I don't see any reason I should, either.

 

After I'm dead, if someone wants to stuff and mount (part of) my body, I say they're welcome to it. I certainly won't need it anymore. Of course, it would almost certainly upset any still-living posterity or friends... and right there is the crux of the issue. To say that mounting the head of a dead animal on a wall plaque is disrespectful to the creature is a fallacy. There's no way of knowing how the animal in question feels about the issue; it may be fine with it, it may dislike it, it may find it funny as hell, or as likely as not it no longer exists and is incapable of caring, much less having an opinion one way or the other. We don't know, and probably can't and never will. The contention comes from others stating their belief that it's disrespectful.

 

Edit: God damn it, why does the quote function hate me all of a sudden?

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Once we get our Star Trekish replicators (is that what they call them?) working, most of us will have to buy a grocery shopping license to get our food. :mellow:

 

You know -- because then, buying meat and produce will become a sport, too. :scratch:

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