How Do Feel About Killing Animals

[AtheistMommy]

That's one hell of a big rabbit. You guys are making me hungry!

 

Apart from the hunting thing........its very sad that christianity kinda condones the abuse or mis- use of animals.

 

I can say with hand over heart that I have never eaten rabbit! It was against my religion (SDAist) but.....who could?

check this out...cute or what?

 

You think xianity is bad. Try watching Taboo. They showed this one tribe that would kill a dog for a tree. They beat the dog to death with a club. What kind of sick shit is that? The only good thing that came out of it is that they cooked and ate the animal after they put its blood on the tree. I think the immoral part comes from killing senselessly. If you're not going to eat what you kill, why kill?

 

I do wonder what a fresh tastes like. I keep hearing it's better tasting than store bought frozen meat. I've eaten rabbit, its like the best tasting chicken I've ever had.

 

As for farms and what not, don't you think its better that these animals are not being hunted to extinction? They are regulated. Yes, the way some are kept is horrible. But they live to die in the first place. I mean if they are living on a farm or a ranch they are most likely going to be someone's dinner sooner or later.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

But you furnish a substitue nevertheless: money, so you're indirectly contributing. Your argument essentially is that you will order a hit, but you will not do it personally. It's not hypocritical to hate the hitman you hired.

 

Okay, one more time, killing for food is necessary. The guy who killed my chicken sandwich was just doing his job. This type of killing is a necessary part of modern omnivorous life. I think I've made it clear that my only real problem with the situation is not the killing of animals, but the desire to kill animals. Enjoying it. I just don't understand it.

 

The slaughter industry sucks. They are paid well because it sucks. I doubt most anyone takes joy out of it, just like I doubt most people enjoy picking up your trash. And if you like that one, you'll love pig farming.

 

I think I clearly stated my point, which was that I'd be disturbed to discover that the guy at the slaughterhouse was working there because he had a love for killing animals, but I guess someone has to do it.

 

The only hunter who bothers me is the one who owns no land and has no vested interest in free ranging cattle, yet still roams around the countryside looking for vermin to cap off for fun because they are a "threat" to a non-indigenous species that has contributed to an unprecedented amount of overgrazing, destruction of inedible foliage, litigation, welfare ranching, and erosion of soil from a horribly inefficient stock adapted primarily to swamps in order to produce a food item that Americans find more popular: beef.

 

Let's all hunt cows, instead. With a friggin minigun. That sounds like a hoot. Seriously.

 

I said this in the other thread debating hunting and I'll say it here. Prey animals are not without defense, and anyone who says they are has, at best, a severely handicapped understanding of the nature of predator vs. prey. Skin shaded to act as camouflage, heightened senses, greater endurance and safety in numbers are all defenses in most prey animals' reportoire. Their best defense strategy is one of prevention, i.e. not being spotted by a predator in the first place, so that's what evolution has developed most in them. Animals have defenses, but most people don't understand them as such because they're proactive rather than reactive, something we don't normally associate with the term.

 

Those are poor defenses against hunters with projectile weapons sitting in a comouflaged stand 15 feet into a tree. To say that a deer's natural coloring is defense against your weapons and night vision and mating calls and pheremones and whatever else you have at your disposal, shows, at best, a severely handicapped understanding of what an enormous advantage a human hunter has over his prey. Those defenses were designed to protect against other animals that would have to run it down to kill it, and even a mountain lion has to worry when it's trying to catch a deer whether or not the deer's hind hooves will kick and break it's jaw, rendering it unable to eat and therefore dead. Humans stroll in, sit down, take aim, fire and yeehaw.

[Astreja]

I once killed a mouse that had been severely wounded by my Qat. It's one of the hardest things I've ever done.

 

If ever I was stranded out in the wilderness, however, I would learn to hunt, and hunt very well, so as not to prolong the suffering of my prey.

[snookums]

That's one hell of a big rabbit. You guys are making me hungry!

 

Apart from the hunting thing........its very sad that christianity kinda condones the abuse or mis- use of animals.

 

I can say with hand over heart that I have never eaten rabbit! It was against my religion (SDAist) but.....who could?

check this out...cute or what?

 

You think xianity is bad. Try watching Taboo. They showed this one tribe that would kill a dog for a tree. They beat the dog to death with a club. What kind of sick shit is that? The only good thing that came out of it is that they cooked and ate the animal after they put its blood on the tree. I think the immoral part comes from killing senselessly. If you're not going to eat what you kill, why kill?

 

I do wonder what a fresh tastes like. I keep hearing it's better tasting than store bought frozen meat. I've eaten rabbit, its like the best tasting chicken I've ever had.

 

As for farms and what not, don't you think its better that these animals are not being hunted to extinction? They are regulated. Yes, the way some are kept is horrible. But they live to die in the first place. I mean if they are living on a farm or a ranch they are most likely going to be someone's dinner sooner or later.

 

How are you going to Kill the rabbit. YOurself...what method would you employ? Wringing it's neck, bashing it over the head, slitting its throat....locking it up in a small shed and smoking it to death....setting your dogs onto it to rip its head off. Reminding you its a biggun'...but its breed to be placid so I'm guessing a woman of average statue would NOT have too much trouble.

 

 

I don't regard 'tribes' people doing anything 'immoral'. ie. the hunter's and gatherer's in Australia and Papua New Guinine......bush or forest people who rely on all kinds of animals to survive...no different from the herdsmen (people) who have developed their relationship with domesticated animals. We have taken that to a new level......mega factory's - mega farms. (not really the best for us or the animal)

 

I also don't think ...that blanket 'rule' of if you eat it...its all okay. Take the exploitation of Whales etc...by the Nation of Japan. They really dont need to eat Whale meat...but in the opinion of other environmentalist and myself ........they are doing to only to prove a point...that they can - and fuck the rest of you lot.

 

Some people get a real kick out of eating endangered species - does that make it taste any better...or is eating meat in that way...really about 'survival'?....I don't think so...I think is reminscent of the old christian shit...to have dominion over the lowerly creatures..blablabla.. I wouldn't like to see a farm set up to 'farm' elephants or gorilla for the purpose of providing meat for the table. Animal deserve respect and protected for other reasons other than meat - like power, grace, human helper's, social creatures and just for their beauty. That 's my opinon *shrugs*

 

I think that modern farming methods..or .people mainly relying on supermarket's for food has taken away the 'relationship' people have had with animals. There are kids who don't know where milk comes from.....eat only processed meats.....that no longer bleeds on the plate. Fresh meat...its not so easy...it needs to be "hung' for at least a few days....mostly for the rigor mortise to leave the carcass otherwise it tastes foul and would be hard to cut. Most people who shop at Woolies or AMart don't know that. I think its sad that some kids aren't given more opportunity to learn how to care for a pet - and not to consider "it' as disposable as one of their old playstation games.

 

 

I don't care if people eat cute wabbits really....but I object to the custom in CHina (developing nation) of terrorising/beating the domestic dog (that's common on the menu)...because they believe that the adrenine the animal produces before it dies..make the flesh taste better.

I find cruelty disgusting - custom or not. Thats one example of the exception to the all killing is justified if the animal is eaten.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I don't care if people eat cute wabbits really....but I object to the custom in CHina of terrorising the domestic dog (that's common on the menu)...because they believe that the adrenine the animal produces before it dies..make the flesh taste better.

I find crueling disgusting - custom or not.

 

WTF! I bet they also taste better if you impale them and roast them alive. Or drop them, freshly shaved and yelping into a deep fryer. China kicks ass.

 

I once killed a mouse that had been severely wounded by my Qat. It's one of the hardest things I've ever done.

 

If ever I was stranded out in the wilderness, however, I would learn to hunt, and hunt very well, so as not to prolong the suffering of my prey.

 

 

When you gotta, you gotta.

[white_raven23]

I've been to China.

 

Ate plenty of "mystery meat" while I was there. No idea what it was. No matter....it was well cooked and I didn't wind up with the trots the next day.

 

It's all good.

[AtheistMommy]

 

You think xianity is bad. Try watching Taboo. They showed this one tribe that would kill a dog for a tree. They beat the dog to death with a club. What kind of sick shit is that? The only good thing that came out of it is that they cooked and ate the animal after they put its blood on the tree. I think the immoral part comes from killing senselessly. If you're not going to eat what you kill, why kill?

 

I do wonder what a fresh tastes like. I keep hearing it's better tasting than store bought frozen meat. I've eaten rabbit, its like the best tasting chicken I've ever had.

 

As for farms and what not, don't you think its better that these animals are not being hunted to extinction? They are regulated. Yes, the way some are kept is horrible. But they live to die in the first place. I mean if they are living on a farm or a ranch they are most likely going to be someone's dinner sooner or later.

 

How are you going to Kill the rabbit. YOurself...what method would you employ? Wringing it's neck, bashing it over the head, slitting its throat....locking it up in a small shed and smoking it to death....setting your dogs onto it to rip its head off. Reminding you its a biggun'...but its breed to be placid so I'm guessing a woman of average statue would NOT have too much trouble.

 

 

I don't regard 'tribes' people doing anything 'immoral'. ie. the hunter's and gatherer's in Australia and Papua New Guinine......bush or forest people who rely on all kinds of animals to survive...no different from the herdsmen (people) who have developed their relationship with domesticated animals. We have taken that to a new level......mega factory's - mega farms. (not really the best for us or the animal)

 

I also don't think ...that blanket 'rule' of if you eat it...its all okay. Take the exploitation of Whales etc...by the Nation of Japan. They really dont need to eat Whale meat...but in the opinion of other environmentalist and myself ........they are doing to only to prove a point...that they can - and fuck the rest of you lot.

 

Some people get a real kick out of eating endangered species - does that make it taste any better...or is eating meat in that way...really about 'survival'?....I don't think so...I think is reminscent of the old christian shit...to have dominion over the lowerly creatures..blablabla.. I wouldn't like to see a farm set up to 'farm' elephants or gorilla for the purpose of providing meat for the table. Animal deserve respect and protected for other reasons other than meat - like power, grace, human helper's, social creatures and just for their beauty. That 's my opinon *shrugs*

 

I think that modern farming methods..or .people mainly relying on supermarket's for food has taken away the 'relationship' people have had with animals. There are kids who don't know where milk comes from.....eat only processed meats.....that no longer bleeds on the plate. Fresh meat...its not so easy...it needs to be "hung' for at least a few days....mostly for the rigor mortise to leave the carcass otherwise it tastes foul and would be hard to cut. Most people who shop at Woolies or AMart don't know that. I think its sad that some kids aren't given more opportunity to learn how to care for a pet - and not to consider "it' as disposable as one of their old playstation games.

 

 

I don't care if people eat cute wabbits really....but I object to the custom in CHina (developing nation) of terrorising/beating the domestic dog (that's common on the menu)...because they believe that the adrenine the animal produces before it dies..make the flesh taste better.

I find cruelty disgusting - custom or not. Thats one example of the exception to the all killing is justified if the animal is eaten.

 

Well, when I did eat "wabbit" I didn't have a choice because it was someone else who made it (I don't know how he killed it) and I was a kid being forced to eat. But it still tasted good.

 

I seriously don't like the dog thing. I know meat is meat and we can eat pretty much anything including ourselves (although proven to be unhealty). I no nothing about people eating endangered animals. Maybe they feel they have to have a taste before it's too late (lol). There are greater threats to animals than humans eating them.

 

I guess I just don't take this subject as seriously as you do.

 

As for China, what we consider normal they consider taboo and vice versa. Who's to say who's right?

[LosingMyReligion]

I absolutely deplore animal murder, even moreso than human. Don't get me wrong it is horrible when a human dies. But I feel it is more heinous when it is an animal. Animals are truly innocent. They have no voice. They can't tell a human being when they are hurting, emotionally or physically. Moreover, they only act on instinct at the base level. They do what comes natural to them, and to kill something like that makes you a monster in my opinion...

 

Granted, I do believe in animals for food consumption. It is the whole food chain thing. Animals kill to eat, and since we humans are animals to we have to eat as well...

 

But people who kill animals without remorse should be shot in the face as far as I'm concerned.

 

I'm not a huge animal activist, but I love all critters great and small.

 

I have never killed an animal before. I honestly don't believe I have the capacity to kill something or someone unless I had to protect myself.

 

Once, over night, I found a kitten locked inside my garage. It was scorching hot and the poor thing had been there the entire night. Apparently, it's mother put it there(because little cats always come to our house), I presume, for shelter. The next morning it was so dehydrated and frightened. I tried to revive it with water and milk, but it later expired.

I was not right for a week after that. So, in order to do penance I adopted a little kitten from a shelter. It was sort of my way for making up.

I still have my beautiful pussy cat, and she is 15 months old now.

Also got two cute little gerbils(sophocles and Shakespere)...Surprisingly, they get on well with Persephone(my cat)...provided I never let them out of my sight.

[jjacksonRIAB]

Okay, one more time, killing for food is necessary. The guy who killed my chicken sandwich was just doing his job. This type of killing is a necessary part of modern omnivorous life. I think I've made it clear that my only real problem with the situation is not the killing of animals, but the desire to kill animals. Enjoying it. I just don't understand it.

 

What do you mean by "enjoying it" then, other than the case of a fuckhead running over shit just to watch it splatter, or a guy in the wilderness shooting anything and everything that moves with no intention of eating it, deriving sadistic pleasure from it.

 

The desire to live is also the desire to kill, whether you're killing plants or animals, or even eating their embryos. I imagine some people do enjoy harvesting. Obtaining food for yourself should produce a reaction, and that reaction is one of feeling successful for putting food on the table so you don't starve, or in the case of modern hunting, you put money back in your pocket that can go towards other things that improve your life.

 

I'm not going to feel bad about eating.

 

Let's all hunt cows, instead. With a friggin minigun. That sounds like a hoot. Seriously.

 

I hope you can find a freezer big enough and are prepared to chew on bullets every once in a while. You shoot it, you eat it, buddy.

 

We're building a fence out there though. The POA is pissed off about it, saying that if people fence off their property they won't get their tax breaks. We have horses that need to graze the pasture, so we get that tax break anyway. On top of that, we have more sense than cows do about how to mindfully allow our animals to graze so they don't turn the land to dust and we buy hay from other areas so that we can keep them fed all year.

 

Our neighbors are jackasses. They go around shooting coyotes and porcupines because they are "vermin". The most sobering experience was having to kill a porcupine ourselves because an idiot neighbor gave it a gut shot with his six gun and came over to ask us for our help killing it because he ran out of ammunition. It was up in a tree -never mind the wisdom of shooting a gun at a 60 degree angle.

 

Fortunately my brother came out with a gun and finished it off, but I was more interested in killing my neighbor for putting us and the animal through that shit. His reason for doing it is he didn't want it killing his trees -the same trees he hired the fire department to thin down later so he could pocket the cash.

 

He tried to tell us to kill every porcupine we could find. Fuck that. I like hearing the coyotes at night, and seeing the porcupines walk along the road. The only sound I don't like is the sound of MOOOOOOOOO accompanied by shit breaking at 4 AM, unless it is followed by the somewhat satisfying sound of a stampeding herd with a barking sheltie running full bore behind them.

[The Sage Nabooru]

I can say this, animals do not have high level emotions. It is mostly fight or flight, hunger, sex, and for female ones, maternal instincts to care for young. For those of you who have cats, if you were suddenly shrunk to the size of a mouse...your cat would probably see you as a mouse and in many cases, eat you. Ask any animal behaviourist or veteranarian. Animals act on instinct. The only reason they show any affection to you is because you feed them and don't abuse them. That is it. They do not have the ability to have altruistic feelings. That is the arena of human beings. Human beings are the top of the food chain and I do consider the human species higher than animals. Don't get me wrong, we have a dog and some cats. Yes we treat them as family but they do not have the ability to truely care about us as another human would. It is simply impossible. They do not have a well developed enough brain. As far as dolphins go, they are more like dogs who live in water...feed them fish and they hang around. Stop feeding them, no matter how much affection you show them, they will go away. In a nutshell....animals are instictive creatures only.

 

How do you know? Were you ever an animal?

 

As for "they have plenty of defenses".....those defenses are defenses against natural predators, such as bears, etc., who have to fight for the kill. They're pointless against the night goggles, scopes, bullets, long-range rifles, and other man-made devices made to make killing as easy and safe for the hunter as possible.

 

There is no excuse for killing. Ever.

[jjacksonRIAB]

How do you know? Were you ever an animal?

 

As for "they have plenty of defenses".....those defenses are defenses against natural predators, such as bears, etc., who have to fight for the kill. They're pointless against the night goggles, scopes, bullets, long-range rifles, and other man-made devices made to make killing as easy and safe for the hunter as possible.

 

There is no excuse for killing. Ever.

 

Man himself only has one defense against most animals: his brain. Otherwise he'd get his ass handed to him on a regular basis. The fact that his tools are not integrated is only a matter of semantics and no real point of contention. After all, we're not the only animal that uses tools to do things we couldn't otherwise do. Apes use sticks to scoop up ants. Beavers build dams to live in and make food more available to themselves.

 

The day you stop killing is the day you stop living. Life is a more compact form of energy, and it must be broken down by the body to release that energy. Living is the reason for killing. Something must die for you to live and if that's too harrowing for you, then I suggest you feed yourself to the bacteria.

 

What cannot be denied is everything we eat is "killed", even plants. Vegans and other morons refuse to admit it, and they place one form of beast on a higher order than another. Kill this one, but not that, because it is morally acceptable to kill plants, but immoral to kill deer who also kill plants. When you point out that their argument is facetious bullshit because sustaining the human body requires killing, it is ignored.

 

Killing is necessary. If you want to end killing get started on making a particle assembler that can create whatever food I enjoy from carbon without costing life anything and then perhaps you'll have an argument, but for right now I think that argument is hypocritical bullshit.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Sage,

 

For something to live, that system has to be fed. Unless that creature feeds off the air itself, something else has to give up its component parts as food-energy.

 

Plants suck nutrition from the ground they live in. They steal sunlight and use it to growm. Grazing anaimals eat the greenery, up the food chain.

 

"Killing" is by far too wide a term to toss out casually in this discussion.

Further defining your statement would go a long way in helping us process your thinking on this subject.

 

I've "killed" damn near every form of critter found on earth, save an elephsnt and whales. Do I feel like a *murderer*? Absolutely not.

 

When it all comes down to the basics, JJ's post breaks down the conumdrum quite well.

 

Respectfully,

 

kL

[nicoleeann]

I wouldn't even kill an animal out of self-defense.

Actually, that is how I'm hoping to die-getting eaten by a pack of wild wolves or maybe a shark.

[godlessgrrl]

How I feel about killing an animal depends on the animal and the circumstances.

 

I'll confess that it's very easy for me to off invertebrates. Clams, oysters, mussels, crab, lobsters... all fair game. (And yummy as hell, especially with lots of butter.) I also find it fairly easy to kill fish. I don't know why, really. It just is.

 

I can't kill small vertebrates myself - I get too squeamish about it, plus I've never really been taught how to do it quickly and painlessly - but for some animals I have no qualms about letting someone else kill them. Chickens, for example. I have no remorse whatsoever over killing chickens - largely because my former landlord had many dozen free range birds that had the tendency to dig up my garden and crow all fucking night. Fortunately the spouse learned how to hunt various critters, and consequently how to kill them quickly and painlessly, so I am content to let him off the occasional wandering bird.

 

Other animals... it depends. I've seen my dog kill wild rats and mice, for instance, and have only ever found myself watching with a kind of amazed fascination at the pure, efficient, cold-blooded instinct of it. I never taught her to hunt, she just knew - and she has never toyed with an animal or tormented it. It's a clean, instant kill. I don't totally get how she just knows what to do, but somehow she just does. Instinct in action.

 

I guess overall I look at it like everything needs to eat, including me - and when I die, I'll be eaten too. So I am willingly an omnivore, and have no qualms about animals dying so that I can eat them.

 

But the point isn't for them to suffer for my pleasure, it's for me to get a decent meal. The reason I don't hunt is because I don't know how, and am well aware that if I tried to hunt without some serious lessons I'd probably take out whatever I was after in some rather painful way, simply from lack of skill. I don't feel guilt when animals have to die in order to be a food source, but I do feel it if they suffer in dying.

 

Heh, somehow this whole thread reminds me a bit of the animal from Douglas Adams' "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe" - the big sort of cowlike animal that had been domesticated and bred to *want* to be eaten. It was sentient and conscious, and could freely communicate its desire to be killed and eaten... a question is, if there were such an animal, would you eat it? Or would that creep you out?

 

I'd probably eat it, but that's just me.

 

Incidentally, killing animals accidentally kind of bugs me. Like when I hit something with my car - a squirrel, say. I'm not particularly fond of squirrels, but usually a hit by a car doesn't kill them right away. And that kind of bugs me. I always find myself hoping that the next car will finish the poor thing off.

 

Man, if I hit somebody's dog or cat, though... I think I'd lose it.

 

Edited to add: Heh, speaking of Douglas Adams, I just noticed that this is post #42 in this thread.

[woodsmoke]

Those are poor defenses against hunters with projectile weapons sitting in a comouflaged stand 15 feet into a tree. To say that a deer's natural coloring is defense against your weapons and night vision and mating calls and pheremones and whatever else you have at your disposal, shows, at best, a severely handicapped understanding of what an enormous advantage a human hunter has over his prey. Those defenses were designed to protect against other animals that would have to run it down to kill it, and even a mountain lion has to worry when it's trying to catch a deer whether or not the deer's hind hooves will kick and break it's jaw, rendering it unable to eat and therefore dead. Humans stroll in, sit down, take aim, fire and yeehaw.

 

A cougar sitting on a sandstone ledge or crouching in high grass, an owl riding the currents over a meadow at night, a hawk soaring several thousand feet in the air while it scouts the ground below it for prey, a wolf pack picking up the sound of a mating call and moving in knowing at least and one meal is present and more are likely to show up; all are using the exact same technology, it's simply natural and integrated instead of artificial. Also, the chances of a big game animal happening to land a seriously injurous or (eventually) fatal blow on a predator in the struggle to escape are so minimal as to barely be worth acknowledgement.

 

However, you make a good point. My approach to hunting is more natural--inasmuch as it can be while employing the use of a firearm, at any rate. I wear camouflage and may have a call or two, but other than that I depend on my knowledge of the climate, terrain and my prey's behavior to win the day. Nor do I like setting up in one spot and waiting for them to come to me; I usually ditch my ride a good mile or two outside my intended destination area and hike in to find out and stalk my prey. Because of this I tend to forget all the gadgets and gizmos available to those hunters who can actually afford to fork over the greens for all that when discussing the subject, and I'll freely acquiesce to defeat there.

 

I absolutely deplore animal murder, even moreso than human. Don't get me wrong it is horrible when a human dies. But I feel it is more heinous when it is an animal. Animals are truly innocent. They have no voice. They can't tell a human being when they are hurting, emotionally or physically. Moreover, they only act on instinct at the base level. They do what comes natural to them, and to kill something like that makes you a monster in my opinion...

 

So which is it, they experience emotion or act only on instinct? You can't have it both ways.

 

Calling it murder is fallacious. Murder, by definition, is an act of lethal violence motivated by and/or executed with malicious intent. The predator is hungry, the prey is food. There is no malice in this, simply natural behavior.

 

The idea that animals experience emotional pain is also fallacious. All our available knowledge tells us that other animals do not experience emotions like humans do. I don't mean by this that other animals can't experience emotion, nor even empirically that they don't, but simply that to say they do is stepping outisde the bounds of (current) reason and into the realm of faith.

 

As for physical pain, they most certainly can alert us to that fact. I'm not aware of any animal large enough for us to hear born without vocal chords. The fact that they rarely do is attributable to evolution: an injured animal raising a loud racket about the fact is bound to attract a lot of unwanted predatory attention.

 

...People who kill animals without remorse should be shot in the face as far as I'm concerned.

 

As Jackson and Nivek have pointed out, you've effectively just voiced your support of every living being receiving a shot in the face.

 

We've all killed countless times, we're all killing right now on some level, and we'll all continue to kill for as long as we remain alive. It's ugly, but that's the reality of life.

 

Man himself only has one defense against most animals: his brain. Otherwise he'd get his ass handed to him on a regular basis. The fact that his tools are not integrated is only a matter of semantics and no real point of contention. After all, we're not the only animal that uses tools to do things we couldn't otherwise do. Apes use sticks to scoop up ants. Beavers build dams to live in and make food more available to themselves.

 

This needs to be written down in bold lettering and placed somewhere prominent in every debate about the ethics of hunting.

 

I've been trying to dig that particular thought out of my head for days now, but for some reason I just couldn't give it form. Thank you for stating that. It's one of the most simple and profound truths of humanity.

[DucorpsToo]

Something else to consider in this string, if you have used any form of pesticide, be it, bug spray, sevin dust, etc. You have killed by using chemical toxins. The human race is at war with nature. It always has, always will. When it comes to humans verses critters, no matter which, I take humans over animals every time.

 

(I've emphasized the bold here). That all depends on which humans we're talking about as well as which animals we're referring to. For example, I love my parrot with my very essence...and I would choose her hands down to, say, people like the fundie author referred to in the thread titled "Words from a dick" (in the Ex-Christian Life forum) or certain assholes that I have encountered during my lifetime... But this brings up a totally different thread for discussion....

[snookums]

For people who believe in the concept that animals cannot feel emotions....feelings of terror, pain, comfort, bonding - depression and despair ....etc...

 

It would be interesting for you to know that through the very unethical work of psychologist Harry Marlow - often referred to as 'MONKEY LOVE"...that theories and changes to human mothering practises were made in the 1950's and still inform today. In fact the monkeys who were deprived of any kind of 'mother' failed to thrive.

 

Also one of the major outcomes of this research is a greater understanding of the behaviour of the abused child....that they will alway...yes always....return and seek the 'love' of the abusing parent or caregiver.

 

So you could say...humans have learned "LOVE" from the monkey. As before that time..human mother's were not encouraged to show affection to their baby. It was ground breaking 'science'...although the poor monkey was abused and tortured.

from

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/art...21/monkey_love/ - if you are interested to read more.

 

I think the point is that .....how would you feel about 'killing'.......if you had to 'kill' in order to eat meat...could you do it? I could not. I don't the 'food chain' idea necessarily gives me that right. I don't think vegetables - grains etc. feel , and therefore cannot 'steal' sunlight.... however I'd protect the old growth forest with much the same ethic and respect as I would the animals around my environments. ( It doesn't make sense to give a vegetable a feeling attribute but deny the animal any at all)

 

Some have made the very incorrect assumption that all humans have 'blood' on their hands so its okay....Forgetting the Buddhist of Tibet...they live a life based on not killling any kind of life form.

Cultures who believe in reincarnation usually value animals more so than the western christian cultures.

 

I don't see anything 'abnormal' about choosing a pacifists kind of value system.

 

Also its not wise to 'take human's over the animal'.....we are co-dependent on this earth. If they fail to thrive ..it means we are not doing so well.....environmentally as well as ethically. Yes...I'd be careful with pesticides - and would not want to eat contaminated food.

 

I also think that humans can 'murder' animals.....one thing that bother's me is to see small children kill small animals. In my view its a huge sign of a particularly grave psychological condition or perhaps an indication of hidious child abuse.

 

On a less serious note....has anyone seen "HOSTEL" yet?...its a crap flick really but it has an interesting byline....that western greed or desire to 'HUNT' could reach, new commercial possiblies...ie making some humans as expendable as the animal.

The expendable human in this story is the backpacker.

 

Come to think of it........if its okay to eat any flesh that you have been responsible for killing...what about the serial killer's like Jeff Darmer who eat their victims.

Is human flesh off the menu....we are after all 'animal's'...albeit of the high order...but are we really the highest on the food chain?

Go ask a bear that....in the woods....without your gun.

 

 

 

 

or a shark!

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Perhaps all the hunters here can put this all to rest and describe the high they get from killing an animal that they can't get anywhere else. Go ahead, hunters, tell us how awesome it is to have a completely oblivious animal in your sights and pull the trigger ending their worthless life. It has to be really cool, to the tune of compensating for a small penis or failings in your professional life. I can't even imagine how life-affirming it must be for you to kill another living being. I'm only asking because I'm sure that the hunting advocates will jump at the chance to describe to all of the unevolved non hunters just how delightful and singularly pleasant and affirming it must be to kill an animal that is drinking from a puddle. I know, it's a very demanding and challenging exercise that makes your cock feel huge. As a man with a small cock, I only need a little more cajoling before I begin to take pleasure in killing. Give me a chance.

[snookums]

...or alternatively you could ask the Baptists for the divine and final answer...

check out this out...quotes the resolutions...http://www.sbcannualmeeting.net/sbc06/resolutions/sbcresolution-06.asp?ID=8

 

sorry...its seems a shame to paste this...tis a load of crap!

 

WHEREAS, In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1), declared it good (Genesis 1:4, 10, 12, 18, 21, 32), and it reveals His glory (Psalm 19:1-6); and

 

WHEREAS, God created men and women in His image and likeness (Genesis 1:26-27), placing them in value above the rest of creation and commanding them to exercise caring stewardship and dominion over the earth and environment (Genesis 1:28; cf. Psalm 8); and

 

WHEREAS, Mankind as free moral agents willfully disobeyed God, plunging the whole creation into corruption because of our sin (Genesis 3:1-19), from which the fallen creation awaits restoration (Romans 8:19-22); and

 

WHEREAS, Since the fall into sin, humans have often ignored the Creator, shirked their stewardship of the environment, and further defiled the good creation; and

 

WHEREAS, Some in our culture have completely rejected God the Father in favor of deifying "Mother Earth," made environmentalism into a neo-pagan religion, and elevated animal and plant life to the place of equal?or greater?value with human life;

 

WHEREAS, The scientific community is divided on the effects of mankind's impact on the environment; and

 

WHEREAS, Some environmental activists are seeking to advance a political agenda based on disputed claims, which not only impacts public policy and in turn our economic well-being, but also seeks to indoctrinate the public, particularly students in public institutions; and

 

WHEREAS, Environmentalism is threatening to become a wedge issue to divide the evangelical community and further distract its members from the priority of the Great Commission; now, therefore, be it

 

RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Greensboro, North Carolina, June 13-14, 2006, renew our commitment to God's command to exercise caring stewardship and wise dominion over the creation (Genesis 1:28); and be it further

 

RESOLVED, That we urge all Southern Baptists toward the conservation and preservation of our natural resources for future generations while respecting ownership and property rights; and be it further

 

 

RESOLVED, That we encourage public policy and private enterprise efforts that seek to improve the environment based on sound scientific and technological research; and be it further

 

RESOLVED, That we resist alliances with extreme environmental groups whose positions contradict biblical principles (2 Chronicles 19:2) and that we oppose solutions based on questionable science, which bar access to natural resources and unnecessarily restrict economic development, resulting in less economic opportunity for our poorest citizens; and be it finally

 

RESOLVED, That we not only reaffirm our God-given responsibility of caring for the creation, but above all, that we continue to commit ourselves to the Great Commission to take the Good News of Jesus Christ to people of every tribe, tongue, and nation thus bringing glory to the One who will make all things new at His coming (Revelation 21:1).

 

 

but alls well....with the christian god of hunter's.....*hehe*

[♦ nivek ♦]

Perhaps all the hunters here can put this all to rest and describe the high they get from killing an animal that they can't get anywhere else. Go ahead, hunters, tell us how awesome it is to have a completely oblivious animal in your sights and pull the trigger ending their worthless life. It has to be really cool, to the tune of compensating for a small penis or failings in your professional life. I can't even imagine how life-affirming it must be for you to kill another living being. I'm only asking because I'm sure that the hunting advocates will jump at the chance to describe to all of the unevolved non hunters just how delightful and singularly pleasant and affirming it must be to kill an animal that is drinking from a puddle. I know, it's a very demanding and challenging exercise that makes your cock feel huge. As a man with a small cock, I only need a little more cajoling before I begin to take pleasure in killing. Give me a chance.

 

 

Shiva..

 

This is not germane to the discussion, nor does it do a damn thing but inflame.

 

Will not edit post, however will ask kindly for you to tone things the fuck down when responding to this section.

 

kL

[woodsmoke]

For people who believe in the concept that animals cannot feel emotions....feelings of terror, pain, comfort, bonding - depression and despair ....etc...

 

It would be interesting for you to know that through the very unethical work of psychologist Harry Marlow - often referred to as 'MONKEY LOVE"...that theories and changes to human mothering practises were made in the 1950's and still inform today. In fact the monkeys who were deprived of any kind of 'mother' failed to thrive.

 

Also one of the major outcomes of this research is a greater understanding of the behaviour of the abused child....that they will alway...yes always....return and seek the 'love' of the abusing parent or caregiver.

 

So you could say...humans have learned "LOVE" from the monkey. As before that time..human mother's were not encouraged to show affection to their baby. It was ground breaking 'science'...although the poor monkey was abused and tortured.

from

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/art...21/monkey_love/ - if you are interested to read more.

 

I was unaware of that. Thanks for the link, I'll study up on it.

 

I think the point is that .....how would you feel about 'killing'.......if you had to 'kill' in order to eat meat...could you do it? I could not. I don't the 'food chain' idea necessarily gives me that right. I don't think vegetables - grains etc. feel ' date=' and therefore cannot 'steal' sunlight.... however I'd protect the old growth forest with much the same ethic and respect as I would the animals around my environments. ( It doesn't make sense to give a vegetable a feeling attribute but deny the animal any at all)[/quote']

 

Obviously, I could. Nothing has to "give" me the right to prey on other species, I take it when I take another animal's life--just as they would be doing were they to take mine.

 

How do you know common culinary herbs don't feel, and what sets them apart from their larger wooden cousins? There may be evidence to support the idea that certain other primates can feel emotions on a level similar to humans, but certain other primates are not all other animals, and it's entirely possible--likely, even--that what's true for them is not true for any other. In that same vein, we don't know whether plants "feel" as we do, and we certainly don't know how much difference in "feeling" there may be between different plants.

 

It doesn't make sense to give feelings to plant-life because they don't need it--just as most animal life doesn't seem to either. What use has a fruit fly for love? A snake for jealosy? A spider for hatred?

 

Some have made the very incorrect assumption that all humans have 'blood' on their hands so its okay....Forgetting the Buddhist of Tibet...they live a life based on not killling any kind of life form.

Cultures who believe in reincarnation usually value animals more so than the western christian cultures.

 

They most certainly do have "blood on their hands." Just because it's not red mammalian blood doesn't change anything. Every time they bathe they kill millions of bacteria. If they keep gardens they kill the weeds and compete with the insect life for the crop yield--and let's not forget the fact that the crops themselves live and grow until the gardeners kill them in the harvest. Their immune system is constantly killing unfriendly bacteria and virii that enter their bodies. Taking a vow of pacifism and holding all life sacred is all well and good' date=' but realistically speaking it's just not possible. "Lower" life dies so that "higher" life my live, until that "higher" life dies and in turn feeds that same "lower" life. Disney is fond of calling it the "Circle of Life."

 

I don't see anything 'abnormal' about choosing a pacifists kind of value system.

 

Nor should you, IMO. It's your choice to make, and no one else can empirically declare you've chosen wrong. You decide for you, it's as simple as that.

 

Also its not wise to 'take human's over the animal'.....we are co-dependent on this earth. If they fail to thrive ..it means we are not doing so well.....environmentally as well as ethically. Yes...I'd be careful with pesticides - and would not want to eat contaminated food.

 

The only thing I can do here is agree. Whether we admit it or not' date=' humans are just as much a part of this Earth as all other life--this goes equally for both camps of "separatists" (those who think we're better, and those who think we're some kind of disease).

 

I also think that humans can 'murder' animals.....one thing that bother's me is to see small children kill small animals. In my view its a huge sign of a particularly grave psychological condition or perhaps an indication of hidious child abuse.[/i]

 

This is a good point, and after reading it I'm going to have to revise my previous statement. You're right, humans can indeed murder other animals. The fallacy comes not in believing this but that every kill attributable to a human qualifies as such.

 

On a less serious note....has anyone seen "HOSTEL" yet?...its a crap flick really but it has an interesting byline....that western greed or desire to 'HUNT' could reach' date=' new commercial possiblies...ie making some humans as expendable as the animal.

The expendable human in this story is the backpacker.[/quote']

 

Personally, as cynical as I am I retain enough faith in humanity to believe this would never become any kind of universally accepted thing. Though I've never seen the movie in question, as I understood it the horrors to which the backpacker was subjected were done in secret, out of the eye and knowledge of virtually everyone else. Were such a scenario to take place in reality, I'm confident that, if discovered, there would be a tremendous outry against it by all peoples of the world.

 

Come to think of it........if its okay to eat any flesh that you have been responsible for killing...what about the serial killer's like Jeff Darmer who eat their victims.

Is human flesh off the menu....we are after all 'animal's'...albeit of the high order...but are we really the highest on the food chain?

Go ask a bear that....in the woods....without your gun.

 

 

 

 

or a shark!

 

I don't recall anyone ever stating it's okay to eat any flesh you were responsible for killing. What has been stated is that it's both irresponsible and unethical to kill a game animal without the intention of at least eating the meat. I believe AtheistMommy said in another (or possibly this) thread that cannibalism has been scientifically proven to be unhealthy.

 

We're the highest on the food chain because we have no natural predators, not because we're superior to all other organisms.

 

I'll go ask that bear, provided he agrees to lose several hundred pounds beforehand and come without his claws and teeth. If I have to leave my tools behind, so should he.

 

The shark would be a little more tricky, as my natural element is out of his and vice versa. Tell you what, get an amphibious mediator and I'm there.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Perhaps all the hunters here can put this all to rest and describe the high they get from killing an animal that they can't get anywhere else. Go ahead, hunters, tell us how awesome it is to have a completely oblivious animal in your sights and pull the trigger ending their worthless life. It has to be really cool, to the tune of compensating for a small penis or failings in your professional life. I can't even imagine how life-affirming it must be for you to kill another living being. I'm only asking because I'm sure that the hunting advocates will jump at the chance to describe to all of the unevolved non hunters just how delightful and singularly pleasant and affirming it must be to kill an animal that is drinking from a puddle. I know, it's a very demanding and challenging exercise that makes your cock feel huge. As a man with a small cock, I only need a little more cajoling before I begin to take pleasure in killing. Give me a chance.

 

 

Shiva..

 

This is not germane to the discussion, nor does it do a damn thing but inflame.

 

Will not edit post, however will ask kindly for you to tone things the fuck down when responding to this section.

 

kL

 

But you're a hunter, niveK. I'm glad you didn't edit my post, for the sake of your integrity, but is it at all possible that someone might not understand (other than what seems obvious) why someone else could take pleasure in killing something and making it their primary leisure activity? There are so many other things to do that are enjoyable that don't involve killing animals.

 

I understand that it's natural and necessary all that other stuff. I'm not arguing that animals shouldn't be killed. I'm just totally unfamiliar with the mindset that sees killing animals as a fun time. Seriously. I know I sound like a pinko-commie-what-not, but it's true.

 

If my comments aren't germane to the discussion then please show me where the issues in my post were dealt with previous to my post, because the sentiment certainly was germane and jermaine and even tito. Everyone wants to defend their killsport as though killing has nothing to do with it. I'm just keeping it real. I think I admitted my own penis was small, so if you took offense to the penis comment, I'm sorry. There is always surgery.

[Vigile]

I have mixed feelings on the subject myself. I killed a deer when I was 19 and had to put a second bullet in its head to end the suffering. I looked in its eyes before it died and felt like a piece of shit for killing that animal. I swore I would never hunt again and that if I felt the need to feel the thrill of the hunt, I would take a camera instead of a gun.

 

On the other hand, I'm from Idaho and I understand to a degree how they use hunters to control the population of wildlife. Wolves have all been eradicated (though now restored in small areas) and deer would likely overpopulate their feeding grounds and the herds would likely be weak and diseased from living at subsistance levels without hunting to thin them.

 

I get what Shiva is saying, though it's difficult to make an absolute argument from his statements (and I don't think that is what he is trying to do). I empathize with a deer just like I empathize with my family dog. I cannot empathize with a cow or a bird brained chicken. That's just the reality of my own emotional evolution. Personally I cannot empathize with those who get a thrill out of killing. That's also the reality of my own emotional evolution.

[BTDT]

I'm not saying this is an emotionally 'balanced' view, but I empathize with all animals great and small. I feel they have the right to live their natural lives without an assumption on my part that anything that inconveniences me should automatically be destroyed. So I don't kill individual bugs if there is any other alternative. I have killed colonies of ants in my kitchen, via ant traps. Don't feel great about it. Would do the same to cockroaches, obviously, but still not feel great about it. Individual bugs usually get escorted outdoors.

 

Animals that die accidentally due to human activity break my heart. (Shiva's previous post about the run-over geese and the suffering one that was left alive made me sad the whole day ) When I was a young child I experienced several accidental pet deaths. A turtle that baked because I put his bowl in a sunny window, thinking he'd like that. A hermit crab that dehydrated in my hot upstairs bedroom when I didn't notice he'd been out of water for awhile. A dog that ran away because I accidentally left the front door open when I left the house with some friends, and he got hit by a car.

 

Animal death really upsets me, and I know if I had to kill my own food, I'd be vegetarian overnight. I don't enjoy being a hypocrite in this regard, but I haven't had the willpower to overcome my meat-eating ways yet. I can accept the natural order of predator-prey, I just really don't like the idea that animals live miserable lives just to be a mass food source for us. I really see the way we use our creativity and innovation to 'consume' everything in our path as a virus-like activity.

[The Sage Nabooru]

I can't help but think sometimes that we humans are supposed to be vegetarians. After all, vegetarians do live longer.

 

My mother right now is on the Atkins diet....I keep begging her to go off of it. Not that I'm trying to convert her to vegetarian Buddhism or anything - she's a diehard, closed-mind Christian and there's nothing I can do about that - but I would like her to live to 60 without a heart attack or death.

 

As for vegetables.....If I pluck a pear off a tree or a tomato off the vine, the plant is still alive. It doesn't form extensive scar tissue where the fruit was. In fact, fruit are supposed to fall off their respective plants. I can take that fruit directly off the plant and eat it, and the plant won't die.

 

It's one reason why I still drink milk (albeit only from a certain organic brand dedicated to treating their cows well). A cow's udder is somewhat like a bladder in that when it's full of milk, it causes the cow a great deal of discomfort until it's emptied. There are even milking rooms today equipped with machines the cows can enter themselves when they feel they need a milking, without humans needed to do the job. It's just like a human using the toilet.

 

But, I can't eat meat without killing the animal first. Even if I could - say I could eat a chicken leg by amputating the leg and then letting the chicken go - would that really be humane, to cripple an animal to satisfy my own desire for barbecue?