Problems With The Police!

[HuaiDan]

"Just doing my job" is no substitute for a conscience.

 

If everybody let their "conscience" get in the way of doing their job, then things would be all sorts of willy-nilly, wouldn't they? Maybe you have a good conscience, but I wouldn't trust most people when faced with an extraordinarily difficult moral dilemna to make the right decision, hence institutions like religion. Candidates for major urban police departments where the screening process is standardized are selected based on their unique abilities to make moral decisions yet still make those decisions within the bounds of their prescribed duties. Those prescribed duties are, of course, decided by lawmakers, administrators, and judges. If a police officer doesn't "just do his job", ie., dereliction of duty, he/she will face stiff disciplinary measures, possibly lose his/her job, or be sentenced to prison. Not may people in other professions face such stringent disciplinary standards.

 

If their authority over other people can come from nowhere, so can mine.

It didn't come from nowhere. Strawman. After passing an extremely selective screening process and graduating from police academy, they are appointed their duties by officials who were elected into office by the voting public. Try using "the law of reciprocity" in a court of law. See where it gets you.

 

It's hard enough doing that without you bitching and moaning about it every step of the way.

Bitching and moaning? I call it informing the ignorant. I see a lot of broad generalizations going on here. Uninformed prejudice comes in all shapes, sizes and colors. If you just go around hating the police, then you will probably fail miserably next time you have to deal with them. Truly understanding who they are and where they come from will allow you to deal with them much more effectively. Let me reiterate: I am not pro-police. I am anti-conservative (wouldn't call myself liberal). I am anti-government interference into peoples' personal lives. I immensely enjoy an occassional illicit substance, which, were I to get caught, would land me time in prison in the US, or, here in China, who knows, but I know it wouldn't be pleasant. When I lived in the US i got spanked hard a couple times by the police, but i blame that more on my own stupidity in letting myself get caught rather than the police who were, indeed, doing their job. Wouldn't it feel extremely creepy if you were busted for DUI/reckless op, and the police just let you go? With 40,000 americans dying in traffic accidents every year, what do you think they should do? WHy do you think they're there?

 

Society needs anti-cops too.

Do you vote?

 

Let me reiterate: I'm not trying to stick up for bad police behavior. I know it exists. Of fucking course it exists and occurs quite frequently. But less frequently than bad teacher behavior, bad doctor behavior, bad engineer behavior, bad burger flipper behavior. But due to the nature of the job, it's more visible and pisses people off more. Such an easy target.

 

WHAT I"M SAYING IS: place the blame where it belongs. LAWMAKERS. ADMINISTRATORS. JUDGES. and the people who put them there. If you want to remove a tree, it's far more efficient to go after the base and the roots, not attack the leaves and twigs.

 

The kind of person that chooses law enforcement as a profession, either that are extraordinarily eleemosynary

Is there something wrong with being eleemosynary? Certain jobs do require such a sense, some people possess it. Personally, I would agree many if not most police are drawn to the sense of power. Given the two choices provided, eleemosynary is probably better on the psychological well-being of the police officer. At worst, the police officer will feel disillusioned when they are cursed for doing what they thought was the right thing, or when they realize they can't help people who don't want to be helped.

 

If it's power they are craving, they might get obese, develop heart trouble, and commit suicide when they realize how little power their position actually affords them. It's a very, very, restrained power that gradually wears down a power seeker over the years. No doubt in my mind it's the extreme power seekers that turn into the bad cops. Probably got busted down to a desk job at one time for a few months for getting a bit rough with a mouthy citizen. that type.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Dan, would you let a cop hold your stash? They are jackbooted bogarts. Away with them!

[HuaiDan]

Dan, would you let a cop hold your stash?

Why would I even consider such a thing? The less they know about my stash, the better. They don't want to know about my stash anyway. More work for them. If they find out about my stash, then they have to do something about it. Paperwork, evidence, booking. Pain in the ass for them. All they'll get out of all that trouble is perhaps a bit of OT pay for the court time.

 

The cops who get a kick out of drug enforcement are looking for the big fish. Small fry like me just annoy them. But they gotta look under every stone. Besides, I know how they operate (in the US anyway. In china dealing with the foreigners is more of a headache than it's woth so we pretty much get away with anything if we don't hurt anybody), and I'm careful, so I'm pretty confident I'll never get busted anyway.

 

I knowI wouldn't be willing to say "away with them". Such thinking is one-sided and two-dimensional. Sure, I know I have a conscience. I don't want to victimize anybody. But what scares me are the vast majority of people who only do good because they're afraid of the punishment if they do something bad.

Case in point: 40,000 americans die in traffic accidents every year, mostly because of the assholes who drive too fast and don't obey traffic laws. If there were no police to enforce those traffic laws, how much would you like to bet the number of assholes would increase exponentially, vis a vis no fear of punishment "oh yeah I know how to handle my 2 ton SUV ha ha no sonuvbitch tell me how to drive"rrrrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRCRASHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Family of 4 in the other sedan wiped out.

 

Who's to say what that number would be, but there's not a shadow of a doubt in my mind the roadways would become a literal deathrace. And it's not just the assholes who would die, so don't count on darwinism evening things out.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Dan, would you let a cop hold your stash?

Why would I even consider such a thing? The less they know about my stash, the better. They don't want to know about my stash anyway. More work for them. If they find out about my stash, then they have to do something about it. Paperwork, evidence, booking. Pain in the ass for them. All they'll get out of all that trouble is perhaps a bit of OT pay for the court time.

 

The cops who get a kick out of drug enforcement are looking for the big fish. Small fry like me just annoy them. But they gotta look under every stone. Besides, I know how they operate (in the US anyway. In china dealing with the foreigners is more of a headache than it's woth so we pretty much get away with anything if we don't hurt anybody), and I'm careful, so I'm pretty confident I'll never get busted anyway.

 

Dude, you're killin my buzzz, narc.

[snookums]

Dan, would you let a cop hold your stash? They are jackbooted bogarts. Away with them!

 

well,....the cops I know..have the best gear in town so I'd consider buying dope from them...(if I was inclined to break such the law.....Haha)

 

I don't much like cops either...but they can make damn fine crooked lawyers and judges when they are through with the small fishies ...and scrap up enough money from bribes and kick backs to further their education.

[HuaiDan]

I don't much like cops either...but they can make damn fine crooked lawyers and judges when they are through with the small fishies ...and scrap up enough money from bribes and kick backs to further their education.

 

Generalize, generalize. Am I not getting through to anyone?

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I don't much like cops either...but they can make damn fine crooked lawyers and judges when they are through with the small fishies ...and scrap up enough money from bribes and kick backs to further their education.

 

Generalize, generalize. Am I not getting through to anyone?

You could probably break us in an interrogation room, with threats of prison rape and extended social unavailability.

[All Gods Fail]

[pandora]

The kind of person that chooses law enforcement as a profession, either that are extraordinarily eleemosynary, or they like power, howerer thay can get it. I don't trust cops because I wonder about the kind of person who wants to be a cop. I wonder.

 

 

I've wondered the same thing, although I'm sure some go into it because they see it as a stable, albeit risky, career.

[white_raven23]

I went and applied for being a cop. Took the tests, watched their stupid little videos.....didn't get in. Went on to other things. I KNEW I wouldn't get in either. That was why I applied. In MY state, they always fail you the first time you take the test to find out if you are "serious" or not (found that out from a cop, and from my professor). I was in my second year of college and a psych major.....so my experience did make for a good paper.

 

Pretty stupid though if you ask me. Only paying attention to repeat testers and not the quality of the test scores. If "being a cop" is all you think you can do....then yeah you're going to keep on applying......and you wind up with a lot of inflexible one-track minds on your police force.

 

Anyway.....talk about feeling like I walked into the wrong room! I was standing in line outside the classroom with all these guys (yeah...all guys) who were ALL six feet tall or more. Litstening to them talk, and watching their body language, I realized I was standing in line with all the former high school jocks in town who hadn't gotten scholarships for college.

 

So that's who these guys are, most of the jocks from high school who didn't get picked up by the college scouts. Others are former military.

 

Was set up once with a cop (not like that! It was a date!). He was out on medical leave and I was sitting across from him in the coffee shop and his shoulder was in traction from some incident at a local bar. He shared a lot of behavior traits that reminded me of both the local boxer I'd known, and a local bull-rider.

 

His articulation was very close to that of someone who had taken more than a few blows to the head. He was not a reader, and he was very republican. My questions about anything at all seemed to bother him. Though how I'm expected to get to know someone without asking them about themselves, I don't know. He told me a few things that he clearly expected I would not wish to hear about, and was bothered when I wasn't bothered by his line of work (not sure why he wanted me to be bothered by his work....doesn't make any damn sense). I wasn't too surprised when I didn't hear from him after our initial meeting. We really didn't match.

[Sparrow]

The kind of person that chooses law enforcement as a profession, either that are extraordinarily eleemosynary, or they like power, howerer thay can get it. I don't trust cops because I wonder about the kind of person who wants to be a cop. I wonder.

 

I must admit, I've thought of this too.

 

My personal experience has always been that those who choose the police force (or any other authority position) as a career are there to satisfy some need.

 

Really, who'd want to be in the police force?

 

Shitty pay, people shooting at you, no respect because the reputation is that you're corrupt (which, no doubt, some are) .....

 

Perhaps HuaiDan is right and we shouldn't generalize. It is a silly thing to do.

 

Having said that though, that whilst I don't expect the members of police department to be Albert Einsteins, I do object to having knuckle-draggers with articulation problems "upholding the law".

 

I suppose I 've just had too many of them grunt at me.

 

Sparrow

[Vigile]

I think that a career in law enforcment would have been a very good path for George Bush.

[woodsmoke]

I've a friend who has a dream to someday become a police officer.

 

I look forward to that day with a sense of dread foreboding.

[weary traveler]

Maybe the interpretation of "protect and serve" only means to protect and serve the police force?

 

If you guys think the truth about the problems in xianity and the bible are disturbing, you will be really disturbed to know what the truth is with regard to the legal system and how it was set up. Hansolo, you are on the right track--there is legally no 'duty to protect' the citizenry. The duty is actually to protect the system, which is set against you all in more ways than you could even imagine. I am not advocating anything in particular, just making a statement of fact. Done lots of study on this. Go here for a fascinating book from someone who knows it from the inside...

 

http://www.adventuresinlegalland.com/

[jjacksonRIAB]

If everybody let their "conscience" get in the way of doing their job, then things would be all sorts of willy-nilly, wouldn't they?

 

Yeah, we can't have that happening now, can we? I mean, imagine what tragedy would befall us if each of us had a conscience of our own that we refused to lend to others!

 

Maybe you have a good conscience, but I wouldn't trust most people when faced with an extraordinarily difficult moral dilemna to make the right decision, hence institutions like religion.

 

Or perhaps government?

 

You wouldn't "trust most people", but democracy is exactly what "most people" tell you to do. That is a contradiction.

 

Candidates for major urban police departments where the screening process is standardized are selected based on their unique abilities to make moral decisions yet still make those decisions within the bounds of their prescribed duties.

 

Those prescribed duties are, of course, decided by lawmakers, administrators, and judges. If a police officer doesn't "just do his job", ie., dereliction of duty, he/she will face stiff disciplinary measures, possibly lose his/her job, or be sentenced to prison. Not may people in other professions face such stringent disciplinary standards.

 

I know several cops, and all have admitted to drunk driving and disorderly conduct -and were CAUGHT doing it. They are still on the streets. Usually the misconduct must be severe and grossly negligent before any disciplinary action is taken, and even then they get lighter sentences than the common citizen.

 

It didn't come from nowhere. Strawman.

 

It's not a strawman, because you didn't present any arguments that weren't utterly devoid of logic to necessitate the employment thereof. What weaker version of your argument did I substitute?

 

After passing an extremely selective screening process and graduating from police academy, they are appointed their duties by officials who were elected into office by the voting public.

 

Yes, the majority you admittedly "don't trust". You seem to be agreeing with me that their power comes from nowhere, or at least nowhere important.

 

Try using "the law of reciprocity" in a court of law. See where it gets you.

 

The law of reciprocity takes hold when they enter my court. That's where all the "getting" is gotten.

 

Bitching and moaning? I call it informing the ignorant. I see a lot of broad generalizations going on here. Uninformed prejudice comes in all shapes, sizes and colors. If you just go around hating the police, then you will probably fail miserably next time you have to deal with them.

 

If failing means standing up for myself and asserting my sovereignty with force equaling that of their own, then I will accept failure as my modus operandi.

 

Truly understanding who they are and where they come from will allow you to deal with them much more effectively. Let me reiterate: I am not pro-police. I am anti-conservative (wouldn't call myself liberal). I am anti-government interference into peoples' personal lives. I immensely enjoy an occassional illicit substance, which, were I to get caught, would land me time in prison in the US, or, here in China, who knows, but I know it wouldn't be pleasant. When I lived in the US i got spanked hard a couple times by the police, but i blame that more on my own stupidity in letting myself get caught rather than the police who were, indeed, doing their job. Wouldn't it feel extremely creepy if you were busted for DUI/reckless op, and the police just let you go? With 40,000 americans dying in traffic accidents every year, what do you think they should do? WHy do you think they're there?

 

 

So, for the sake of argument if I could raise a vote on this board to rape you with a retractable baton and was successful, would you blame yourself for me performing said deed? Would I be held blameless because I was merely "following orders"? Or maybe I should obtain my "authority" from "the Almighty"

 

People should be accountable for their own deeds, not blame them on a convenient villan. That is the essence of personal responsibility, lest the ignorant remain uninformed.

 

 

Do you vote?

 

Let me reiterate: I'm not trying to stick up for bad police behavior. I know it exists. Of fucking course it exists and occurs quite frequently. But less frequently than bad teacher behavior, bad doctor behavior, bad engineer behavior, bad burger flipper behavior. But due to the nature of the job, it's more visible and pisses people off more. Such an easy target.

 

Yes. I vote with my will, with my feet, and (if need be) with deadly force, never mind the fact that your question is irrelevent, pointing to the platitude of "no votie, no complanie". Don't even go there.

 

 

WHAT I"M SAYING IS: place the blame where it belongs. LAWMAKERS. ADMINISTRATORS. JUDGES. and the people who put them there. If you want to remove a tree, it's far more efficient to go after the base and the roots, not attack the leaves and twigs.

 

Your analogy fails under the light of introspection. A more fitting analogy would be a tree more like an Ent with flagellating poisonous, barb-covered branches poised to reach out and strike, grip, and shred people to pull them into its otherwise ineffective maw. Without its deadly extensions, the Ent is nothing, but without the trunk, the extensions become completely autonomous.

 

The kind of root you discuss is buried too deep in the sustaining darkness of sweet ignorance to ever attempt to seek the light and I am not interested in devoting my life to the pursuit of uprooting it. Much better in my opinion to avoid the Ent and, when the time comes, prune whatever branches get in my way.

[woodsmoke]

Maybe the interpretation of "protect and serve" only means to protect and serve the police force?

 

If you guys think the truth about the problems in xianity and the bible are disturbing, you will be really disturbed to know what the truth is with regard to the legal system and how it was set up. Hansolo, you are on the right track--there is legally no 'duty to protect' the citizenry. The duty is actually to protect the system, which is set against you all in more ways than you could even imagine. I am not advocating anything in particular, just making a statement of fact. Done lots of study on this. Go here for a fascinating book from someone who knows it from the inside...

 

http://www.adventuresinlegalland.com/

 

This is something people are far too prone to forget, IMO. The agents of the executive are not employed the protect or serve the citizenry. They are there to enforce the laws passed by the legislators.

 

In theory, this should mean the police do indeed exist to protect and serve the people, because the people wouldn't theoretically allow the legislators they elected to pass laws harmful to themselves. In practice and historically, however, there are countless examples of government officials using veiled threats and fear tactics to do exactly that. As a result, we wind up with a police force which exists to serve the government's interests rather than the citizens'.

 

I know several cops, and all have admitted to drunk driving and disorderly conduct -and were CAUGHT doing it. They are still on the streets. Usually the misconduct must is severe and grossly negligent before any disciplinary action is taken, and even then they get lighter sentences than the common citizen.

 

A few days ago on the news there was a story about a law enforcement officer getting caught doing something illegal. In the process of reporting on the incident, the news anchor stated that police don't usually write tickets for other officers, explaining it away as "professional courtesy."

 

My Dad, one of the highest positioned attorneys in the employ of the state, verified this.

 

I certainly hope I'm not the only one who learns that and has an immediate moment of near-violent cognitive dissonance.

[Taphophilia]

It's not just other police they extend professional courtesy to, it's family. I had a friend whose husband was a Chicago police officer. If she was pulled over, for any reason, any where in the US, she would say, "Please give me a break my husband is a police officer." and they let her go.

When I lived in this small town in Illinois, the police officer wrote her a ticket and made her husband call him before he'd tear up the ticket. She was pissed and was yelling at the cop saying, "Are you calling me a liar?" Her husband called the cop and he did tear up the ticket.

She also got into a fight with her husbands sister. Police don't haul off the families of police officers to jail, they just mediate the situation.

 

I used to think the same way HuaiDan does. I was naive. I'd never really dealt with them before. Now that I have, they will fuck up your life just because they can. I'd rather deal with a lawyer and judge any day than a police officer.

[jjacksonRIAB]

A few days ago on the news there was a story about a law enforcement officer getting caught doing something illegal. In the process of reporting on the incident, the news anchor stated that police don't usually write tickets for other officers, explaining it away as "professional courtesy."

 

My Dad, one of the highest positioned attorneys in the employ of the state, verified this.

 

I certainly hope I'm not the only one who learns that and has an immediate moment of near-violent cognitive dissonance.

 

Yeah, I've experienced it first hand. When I was working security at the hospital my brother had been pulled over about three times for speeding on the way home from work, once with me in the car, and every time they just let him/us go -we were still in our uniforms. Yet when I was wearing my traditional jeans and rock band T-shirt, I was accused of being drunk, never let off on tickets, and my friend had his car searched for drugs.

 

Save yourself a little money and buy a cop's uniform.

[Sparrow]

I think that a career in law enforcment would have been a very good path for George Bush.

 

That's very diplomatic, but well put.

 

Sparrow

[godlessgrrl]

I think that a career in law enforcment would have been a very good path for George Bush. --Vigile said

 

Isn't that one of the functions of the executive branch, essentially?

 

Legislative enacts/creates law, executive implements/enforces aw, judicial interprets law... that might be an oversimplification of it and I know those aren't the only functions of each branch.

 

But if I'm right, then W is indeed in law enforcement.

[Shadfox]

The only cops I like are the ones that dance with indians, cowboys and construction workers.