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What Do You Do...


Guest JP
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Hello, fellow Ex-C's. I have a question for you all...

 

What do you guys do when the Bible is proven right on something, i.e. the Jerusalem Tunnel built under Hezekiah and carbon-dated to be about 2700 years old, as says the Bible in Kings and Chronicles? I read an article on National Geographic that talked about it, and it kinda makes me worry that everything else could be right as well. Here's the article:

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...loamTunnel.html

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There is a saying where I come from...."even a broken watch is right twice a day." I don't for a minute think the Bible is 100% wrong...I make the assumption that there is more right than wrong. Just because there are correct elements does not make it correct about everthing....

Yup. If it was 100% false, then we probably wouldn't have so many people believing it in today (um... right?). There is some truth to it.

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The crucial stuff in the book of lies is whatever deals with supernatural claims. Which is exactly why it deserves the name "book of lies" in the first place.

 

I've yet to see any evidence for the babble's supernatural claims, and the mundane claims, if they turn out to be true, may well be interesting... but nothing more.

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Besides, the bible was written about make-believe things happening to (sometimes) real people from (mostly) real places.

 

The best lies have to have an element of truth to them - if it was all made-up shit with made-up people and places, everyone would've recognized it as a book of fiction.

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It's not surprising if there are some historical truths in the OT. There's lots of stuff that's true in Herodotus, but it doesn't follow that everything in Herodotus or the OT is true (most of us don't believe in the gods that Herodotus speaks of as truly existing and acting).

 

Fundies will say, look, they discovered such and such, and it proves the Bible. It doesn't prove that the whole collection of writings is true. It proves that one item is true.

 

I think archeologists have found much evidence that militates against other things asserted in the OT.

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There is a lot of historical things in the OT that certainly do exist/have existed.

 

That certainly doesn't prove that the OT God exists.

 

You must be careful what you deduce from information like that..... Indeed, they found Troy...but that doesn't prove that the Trojan War ever happened.

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If I were to only point out biblical falsities then I would be no better than those people that only point out biblical truths. A truth is a truth no matter its origin.

 

It does sting sometimes to have to admit the bible is right because I know that the people I am admitting it to will use that against me but that's the price I have to pay I guess. I also know that they won't want to listen to the "truth's" in other religions or the failures of their own with an open mind. The one truth I just conceded just validated the whole thing for them. It sucks.

 

But what are you afraid of? Go read Egyptian histories or something. They have plenty of details that are proven right. Does that make the whole thing 100% right? If so, then get to worshipping. I doubt you will. How about the Greeks? The Romans? The Chinese? All cultures have "lost" aspects that are coming to light as truths. The problem is you aren't superstitious about their gods and so as their texts are proven it doesn't have the same effect on you. Distance yourself from the biblical stories (by reading some of the other stories maybe, so that you can see for yourself the superstitions of others instead of just hearing about them) and maybe it won't upset you so much when these types of discoveries are made and you'll see them objectively? Because the bible is going to be right on many things (just not the things some people would like it to be ;) ).

 

mwc

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Wait a minute! The Bible was proven right with C14 method?

 

Well, then the Bible is proven wrong when it comes to the age of the Earth and the early civilizations!

 

Can't have the cake and eat it.

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I find this thread interesting so far. Why is there, or should there be a problem if something in the Bible is found to be true. There are a number of things in the Bible that are true. There are a number of things in the Qua'ran which are true.

 

What the Bible really is, is how people try to understand and explain the world. Take something like the Berlin wall for example.. 700 years from now, some author might write about this event (not being an eye witness of course) and explain in his religious ferver how it was that Zeus softened the hearts of the Germans and sent an angel to demolish the evil wall of division that the worldly Germans put up in their disobedience of Zeus' command to unify.

 

Well, true the Germans were politically divided... true the wall was built, true the wall came down. The reasons and events that happened were a matter of interpretation, perspective or ficticious origins. Doesn't mean that things aren't relevant or true.. it's mostly just the spiritual connection behind said events/conditions.

 

That doesn't necessarily give free licence to discard every explanation of certain things. It could be true that most of the people that tore down the wall believed that Zeus told them to, so hey, maybe He did! Between you and me, it's obvious that it's not very likely, but that's what we have to determine when reading the Bible. We have to read it like any other historical document. We have to read through the lines to determine what likely really happened, and extrapolate from there.

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All of the regions, places, and people written about in the Bible were in existence at onetime. So there is an iota of truth in it.

 

It is kind of like a tall tale.

 

For instance: A grain of sand gets stuck in your eye due to a light gust of wind...

You repeat the story, but it gets more fantastic. The grain of sand becomes a pile that has you gagging.

The story goes on to a group of kids, and now the pile of sand is now a sandstorm in ancient Egypt that wiped out an entire civilization.

 

All fantastic stories start off somewhere, IMHO.

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Hmm, I agree that there are many times things get exadurated and embellished in ancient accounts of almost anything. However, they are still describing things that may have happened. Catastrophic floods, Exodus, Walls come tumbling down.. are mostly based on things that happened, but the scale, the reason, the spiritual connection with such things is what's typically added. I'd argue that there are few things in the Bible that have zero grounding in anything. If anything, it might be accounts in the New Testament but everything is pretty debatable.

 

When one understands how we actually get anything in history, a person can understand better what events most likely took place based on what's said regardless of the truth of it. A lot of it seems like guesswork, but it's educated. That's why when they say history is being written, it's not just our history, but we're still writting and learning about history of the past.

 

We tend not to see things as they are, but as WE are.

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What do you do when parts of the Iliad are proven right?

 

Do you then believe the entire thing happened the way it was told?

 

How about when parts of The Da Vinci Code are proven right? Does that mean it isn't a work of fiction anymore, simply because some of the places and people in it actual were real?

 

How about Gone With the Wind? Hey, we know there was a US Civil War, a lot of the places and events mentioned in it actually happened and are verifiable... does that mean Scarlett O'Hara actually existed? Furthermore, does it mean Rhett Butler is god?

 

The Bible is a historical novel at best, and a badly written one at that. The veracity of one detail - even many details - does not confer veracity on the whole thing.

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My family has another saying: "Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn."

 

So, yes, some accidental truth can get in.

 

Set something in a real place and you will most likely have something line up as true. Then again, just because I have a story about mages fighting a fire elemental in a booby-trapped ice-house at the 1893 World's Fair in Chicago, doesn't mean that it happened, despite having most of the locations and many of the people involved be real personalities of the time.

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Besides, the bible was written about make-believe things happening to (sometimes) real people from (mostly) real places.

 

The best lies have to have an element of truth to them - if it was all made-up shit with made-up people and places, everyone would've recognized it as a book of fiction.

 

True. If there wasn't an element of truth in the Bible, nobody would believe in it. It's the small bits of truth, woven with all the falsehoods, that made Christianity what it is.

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I don't think there is enough credit given to claims made in the Bible. There is a lot of useful history in there. It's the embellishments, misperceptions, politically motivated perspectives and/or forgeries that make it hard to determine the truth. It's not a "book of lies" as people here seem to emotionally want to proclaim. Being ex-Christian you very well know that people were generally very sincere in their perception of "God's influence" in their lives. Whether or not its real, many people thought it was.

 

The only people that could be called at fault are the people that knowingly changed a record of an event, knowing it's untruth, and giving their own rendition of the story. Determining such things is a work in progress.

 

I find it very interesting how similar the attacks are from an ex-Christian side, to the obviously emotionally and ignorance based attacks/defence of the Christian perspectives are. If we as ex-Christians are so enlightened, you think you'd see a less ignorant view of the Bible, no matter how jaded it may be.

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As has been said, how does verifying one tangible place or thing from the OT possibly prove anything that the Babble™ claims about its god? Apples and oranges.

 

Like gwennie said, the fact that the same war that was depicted in Gone With the Wind actually happened does not prove that Scarlet O'Hara was a real person. All the Civil War was was a part of the time period in which the story was set. Much the same can be surmised for parts of the Babble™ which have certain verifiable historical elements.

 

The existence of such does nothing to wash away the contradicitons, cruelties, absurdities, or utter illogic about the god the Babble™ posits or anything related to that god.

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I guess I'm just sort of obsessing over the 'proofs' of the Bible. It's kind of been my kick lately. I read about things like the Jerusalem Tunnel, or the guys who claim to have found the Ark, or the John the Baptist cave that was found a couple of years ago, and then worry about all of it.

 

Right now I'm reading about the Dead Sea Scrolls, and of course I'm worrying about those, as well.

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It can be natural for ex-xians to worry about such things. Most of us came from an environment where we were taught that the Babble™ is perfect and true, and that even the slightest thing in it that can be verified proves the whole thing is right by default.

 

It's a hard thing to unlearn, since it's so deeply rooted. Especially in those of us who study apologetics and are trained extra-well to take even the slightest, most irrelevant historical fact in the Babble™ and make a mountain out of that molehill, all with the goal of proving that Xianity is true.

 

You just have to keep reminding yourself of how sick that sort of god is, how utterly illogical it would be for a god of his alledged attributes to exist, and all the other problems with the so-called "infallable" word of Gawd. That helps me stay anchored, and sure helped in the beginning :)

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The bible contains many facts about history and many wise things. But the fundamental question is whether or not it was inspired by a God. Some claim it is his inerrant word, others that it need not be taken literally but that it is still God's message. I believe that the bible was written by men unaided by a god and that it misinterprets the significance of many happenings and events in history. You must make up your own mind. My first giant step towards disbelief began when I read the bible, cover to cover, in about 4 weeks. At that point I thought that if that God did exist he was a terrifying monster. I realise now that the bible reflects the cruel side of human nature. And the good side! It is, as with all religions, the product of the human mind alone.

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I guess I'm just sort of obsessing over the 'proofs' of the Bible. It's kind of been my kick lately. I read about things like the Jerusalem Tunnel, or the guys who claim to have found the Ark, or the John the Baptist cave that was found a couple of years ago, and then worry about all of it.

 

Right now I'm reading about the Dead Sea Scrolls, and of course I'm worrying about those, as well.

 

Why on earth are you worried? Other than the ark thing, those things are legitimate. Are you worried that the truth may turn out to be "Christianity"? Don't you want to learn the truth? Don't get caught in the trap of "seeing what you want to see" just because you don't want something to be true when it is. Christians make that mistake.. ex-Christians make the same mistake. They will go to the end of the world just to try and find a way that makes them right, when things show up that show they might be wrong. They fight tooth and nail to not be proven wrong.

 

The truth is the truth, just let it happen. Be wise, try to gain understanding and be open to it if you actually want to learn it. Nobody can know everything for sure, but you can make wise deductions based on what you learn. However, you won't learn anything if you don't think you need to. That's the pride that keeps one locked into a certain faith.. be that Christian or ex-Christian.

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Hello, fellow Ex-C's. I have a question for you all...

 

What do you guys do when the Bible is proven right on something,...

 

 

I just do all the normal stuff: mow the lawn, fix supper, read, shower, fix the kitchen, take pictures, computer -- you know the usual things.

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JP, does it worry you that the Quran is proven to be right too, to the same degree? Like Mecca exists, so should we pray on a mat 5 times a day faced towards Mecca then? No, didn't think so. Just because one fact in a book happens to be correct, it doesn't make the story correct.

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