Fundamentals

[freeday]

Okay, PaulS, since you didn't pick up on the other topic I started for the sole purpose of discussing with you, I guess I have to take the discussion in here.

 

Questions for you:

 

Why do someone have to be saved?

 

What are they saved from?

 

And what makes someone saved?

 

 

i know you know the answers to these questions, so you can pretend i gave you the typical fundy reply. where are you going with this.

 

i will be at work, i was just putting this here so i wouldn't forget. i think these are very important questions, that need a very thoughfull answer.

[freeday]

Why do someone have to be saved?

 

We were created to have a relationship with God. Because of our sin, we are separated from that relationship.

 

romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

 

Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins."

 

 

What are they saved from?

 

this is a tricky one.

 

1]God's wrath.

 

Romans 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed."

 

2]satans sceme's

 

Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

 

 

 

And what makes someone saved?

 

Faith in Jesus.

[Asimov]

Why do someone have to be saved?

 

We were created to have a relationship with God. Because of our sin, we are separated from that relationship.

 

romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

 

Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins."

 

So, what does it mean to have sin? What does it mean to have a relationship?

 

Clearly even a broken bond between God and man is some kind of relationship, even if it's one of sin.

 

What is sin?

Where did it come from?

Why does it exist?

Why is it that we can't get rid of it through our own action?

 

What are they saved from?

 

1]God's wrath.

 

Romans 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed."

 

I thought it was because of sin that we are to be punished?

 

2]satans sceme's

 

Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

 

Why would Satan have anything to do with it?

 

And what makes someone saved?

 

Faith in Jesus.

 

And being baptised.

[SkepticOfBible]

Why do someone have to be saved?

 

We were created to have a relationship with God. Because of our sin, we are separated from that relationship.

 

romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

 

Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins."

 

'

 

Not according the Bible

 

Luke 1:5-6

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

 

Genesis 6:9

9 This is the account of Noah.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.

Job 1

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

 

What are they saved from?

 

this is a tricky one.

 

1]God's wrath.

 

Romans 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed."

 

Where is Hell as place of eternal torment in the Old Testament?Is this taken from Pagan theology

 

And what makes someone saved?

 

Faith in Jesus.

 

The book of James and Matthew 25 says otherwise.

[Mythra]

Of course, I quite agree with rrcanna. The whole schpiel is utter nonsense.

 

But, if - this were true - here is my take on it.

 

I believe in personal responsibility. Paying the price or reaping the rewards for my actions.

 

If Yahweh were real, and he says I deserve to go to hell - I feel it's my civic duty to go there.

 

The last thing I would want would be to slip out of the deal via some kind of fine-print plea-bargain.

 

If hell is what I deserve, then to hell I shall go.

 

Sure hope I can get to sleep tonight for worrying about it.

[Caretaker]

[snip]

romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

 

Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins."

 

[snip]

 

Romans 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed."

 

[snip]

 

Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Freeday, all you are doing is quoting Bible verses. In case you don't realize, we don't consider the Bible to be reliable. You are quoting what we consider fantasy I might as well be quoting Star Trek to you.

[freeday]

Why do someone have to be saved?

 

We were created to have a relationship with God. Because of our sin, we are separated from that relationship.

 

romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

 

Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins."

 

So, what does it mean to have sin? What does it mean to have a relationship?

 

say you are in a relationship with a woman, you love her, she loves you. but you continue in sin and have affairs on her. doesn't this affect the whole relationship in a negative way. most humans would end the relationship. but God is so loving he will continuely seek you out until your death, wether you accept him or not. humans are for the most part incapable of loving thier enimies, we are to strive to be like Jesus, but only God has that kind of love.

 

Clearly even a broken bond between God and man is some kind of relationship, even if it's one of sin.

 

What is sin? transgressions of the law of God.

 

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness 1john 3:4.

 

Where did it come from?

 

the law is given to us through moses.

 

 

Why does it exist?

 

satan desired to be the most high God and that was his downfall and the beginning of sin (Isaiah 14:12-15). Satan brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden, where he tempted Adam and Eve with the same enticement, “you shall be like God.”

 

Gen 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

 

 

Why is it that we can't get rid of it through our own action?

 

it is my belief that before christ, this was how you got to heaven, but nobody can follow the law perfectly. only Jesus did. even the people in the OT that witnessed the miracles of the Lord would forget about it and resume thier sinfull ways.

 

What are they saved from?

 

1]God's wrath.

 

Romans 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed."

 

I thought it was because of sin that we are to be punished?

 

2]satans sceme's

 

Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

 

Why would Satan have anything to do with it?

 

And what makes someone saved?

 

Faith in Jesus.

 

And being baptised.

 

although i believe in baptising, i don't think it is neccisary for salvation. if you have Faith in Jesus and strive to be like him, wouldn't you want to get baptised because he did.

 

 

[snip]

romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

 

Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins."

 

[snip]

 

Romans 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed."

 

[snip]

 

Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Freeday, all you are doing is quoting Bible verses. In case you don't realize, we don't consider the Bible to be reliable. You are quoting what we consider fantasy I might as well be quoting Star Trek to you.

 

you missed the point. hans asked paulS these questions knowing full well that his answer would be biblically bassed, hans said there were different views, i was establishing my view points so i could see his, compare/contrast.

 

i am full aware that you think the bible is a fantasy, no need to celebrate it.

[freeday]

Why do someone have to be saved?

 

We were created to have a relationship with God. Because of our sin, we are separated from that relationship.

 

romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

 

Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins."

 

'

 

Not according the Bible

 

Luke 1:5-6

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

 

Genesis 6:9

9 This is the account of Noah.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.

Job 1

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

 

What are they saved from?

 

this is a tricky one.

 

1]God's wrath.

 

Romans 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed."

 

Where is Hell as place of eternal torment in the Old Testament?Is this taken from Pagan theology

 

And what makes someone saved?

 

Faith in Jesus.

 

The book of James and Matthew 25 says otherwise.

 

Zachariah questioned God, had his speach taken away, Noah questioned why God would save the nenavites (sp), Job questioned God's judgement.

 

all are great rightous Godly men, but none were perfect.

 

what in mat. 25 were you reffering to, there are 3 different parables there.

[Asimov]

So, what does it mean to have sin? What does it mean to have a relationship?

 

say you are in a relationship with a woman, you love her, she loves you. but you continue in sin and have affairs on her. doesn't this affect the whole relationship in a negative way. most humans would end the relationship. but God is so loving he will continuely seek you out until your death, wether you accept him or not. humans are for the most part incapable of loving thier enimies, we are to strive to be like Jesus, but only God has that kind of love.

 

You're not explanaining what it means to have a relationship with god. Are you saying my relationship with God would be like that with a woman? Sexual and Romantic?

 

What kind of love are you talking about?

 

I dunno, you still haven't said what it means to have sin.

 

What is sin?

transgressions of the law of God.

 

Which law?

 

Where did it come from?

the law is given to us through moses.

 

That is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. I go on an entire tangent about sin, and you answer the question until we get to here...then you act as if I was asking about the law.

 

Anyways, you seem to answer my question in the next question. So all the commandments given by God in the Torah are the laws we should follow? Why do you not follow them?

 

Why does it exist?

 

satan desired to be the most high God and that was his downfall and the beginning of sin (Isaiah 14:12-15). Satan brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden, where he tempted Adam and Eve with the same enticement, “you shall be like God.”

 

Gen 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

 

Isaiah is referring to a king, not Satan.

 

It's interesting, however, that God would allow Satan to wreak havoc like that and ruin his creation.

I don't see where the correlation between Satan and the serpent in the Garden exists.

 

Anyways, your entire belief system centers on one event, the Garden, correct? What if that didn't happen? What now?

 

it is my belief that before christ, this was how you got to heaven, but nobody can follow the law perfectly. only Jesus did. even the people in the OT that witnessed the miracles of the Lord would forget about it and resume thier sinfull ways.

 

Why can't they follow it perfectly? Because the aren't perfect. So why would God create something that is imperfect?

 

I thought it was because of sin that we are to be punished?

 

although i believe in baptising, i don't think it is neccisary for salvation. if you have Faith in Jesus and strive to be like him, wouldn't you want to get baptised because he did.

 

But it does say that he who believeth and is baptised will be saved. So I think your belief is a little off there.

 

You seem to be injecting a lot of your own ideas into things like "it is my belief" this, and "my belief" that.

[Minstrel]

Why does it exist?

 

satan desired to be the most high God and that was his downfall and the beginning of sin (Isaiah 14:12-15). Satan brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden, where he tempted Adam and Eve with the same enticement, "you shall be like God."

 

Gen 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Hi freeday,

Just wanted to question you on this.

If God created everything...everything would include such things as the earth, the stars, the little birdies, the big birdies, emotions, tears...abilities, talents, personalities...the angels...and that would include Lucifer.

Lucifer, according to Christianity became Satan. Lucifer, likewise, was somehow able to convince one-third of the remaining angels that God created, into siding with him in a rebellion against the almighty throne of Heaven.

Since God created everything...to include everything that Lucifer was...and Lucifer "sinned"...where did that ability come from? God must have been the first to conceive of said 'ability', to have made Lucifer capable of it... Otherwise, we have to conclude that Lucifer was capable of creating something outside of God's world. And, if that is the case, then God isn't all powerful...and isn't the Creator of this world.

Would you say?

[SkepticOfBible]

all are great rightous Godly men, but none were perfect.

 

Which contradicts the Paul , who says that there is no one righteous.

 

Roman 3:10

10As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;

 

According to your theology, it is righteousness that gets you salvation not perfection.

 

what in mat. 25 were you reffering to, there are 3 different parables there.

 

Yes in which Jesus is sayin that those, especially believers, who don't do charity work would be sent to hell, where those who will, will be sent to heaven. Pretty much works is important part of salvation.

 

James makes a shambles of the "Faith Only" theology.

 

satan desired to be the most high God and that was his downfall and the beginning of sin((Isaiah 14:12-15)

 

Read Is 14:12-15 in CONTEXT!!!!!!!. Where is it talking about Satan?

although i believe in baptising, i don't think it is neccisary for salvation.

 

Well sorry you think wrong. The bible makes it clear that baptism is important part of the salvation process

 

Not according to the bible

 

http://www.geocities.com/b_r_a_d_99/debates25.htm] http://www.geocities.com/b_r_a_d_99/debates25.htm[/url]

According to many Christians, baptism is also required for salvation, and that qualifies as another special action or work that must be performed.

This popular form of Christianity preaches that refusing to be baptized without grounds for being excused from it is a direct rebellion to the will of God.

They cite these verses as proof that baptism is required:

 

Mark 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

Notice that Acts 2:38 commands that two actions, or works, are to be performed. Repenting is a work because it's an affirmative action that must be taken to receive salvation. Being water baptized is also an obvious work because it involves that another affirmative action be taken.

 

Acts 8:12

But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

 

According to Acts 8:16 these people were water baptized into the name of Jesus, but did not receive the Holy Spirit at the same time. The Holy Spirit was given when the preachers laid hands on them.

 

However, it appears that being water baptized in the name of Jesus is required before the next step of receiving the Holy Spirit occurs.

 

But, this isn't always the case!

 

One time, when Peter was preaching, the Holy Spirit was given before people had been baptized in the name of Jesus.

But Peter commanded that they be water baptized in the name of Jesus anyway.

 

Acts 10:44-48

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

 

Jesus was water baptized by John the Baptist(Matt 3:13,16), and his disciples baptized people(John 3:22-23).

After Jesus died, water baptism was clearly performed on an individual by Philip in Acts 8:36-38.

 

The next passage seems to support a water baptism ritual, as it alludes to the days of Noah, who was saved when he and his family passed through the flood.

 

1 Peter 3:21-22

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

The Apostle Paul, a figure that Christians love to quote as an authority, was supposed to have seen "Jesus" in a vision, having never met the god-man personally. This resulted in his conversion to Christianity.

During this trance, Paul was told to obey instructions that would be given to him by a believer(Acts 22:10).

Those instructions included being baptized, in order to wash away sin.

Acts 22:16

And now why lingerest thou? Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away, calling on his name.

 

There is an intense debate among believers if water baptism is required, or if it's simply an optional symbolic ritual.

Christians cannot come to any meaningful agreement on this issue, as verses can be found, and interpretations put forth, that support both positions.

The debate on this subject is often quite heated, with believers accusing each other of perverting the Word of God.

(Make no mistake about it, once these God-soaked zealots have killed all their secular enemies, they'll turn on each other, just as they have in the past. Control freaks such as these tend to devour or destroy anything that gets in their way. Praise Jesus!)

While fundamentalist Christians are always trumpeting that the Bible displays absolute harmony and has no inconsistencies,this issue provides a shining example of what a farce that bit of advertising really is.

[freeday]

So, what does it mean to have sin? What does it mean to have a relationship?

 

say you are in a relationship with a woman, you love her, she loves you. but you continue in sin and have affairs on her. doesn't this affect the whole relationship in a negative way. most humans would end the relationship. but God is so loving he will continuely seek you out until your death, wether you accept him or not. humans are for the most part incapable of loving thier enimies, we are to strive to be like Jesus, but only God has that kind of love.

 

You're not explanaining what it means to have a relationship with god. Are you saying my relationship with God would be like that with a woman? Sexual and Romantic?

 

i am finding this a difficult question to answer. relationship as defined by webster 3 a : a state of affairs existing between those having relations or dealings <had a good relationship with his family> b : a romantic or passionate attachment

 

although the person may feel it is a onesided event, you have to have faith that there is another person (God) in the relationship. this is strictly by memory so i could be wrong, but when it says we are to worship the lord, worship in greek i think is "agape." which is more of a love passion type thing. we should have a deep passion for the Lord, something you desire more than any worldly thing.

 

What kind of love are you talking about?

 

I dunno, you still haven't said what it means to have sin.

 

What is sin?

transgressions of the law of God.

 

Which law?

 

Where did it come from?

the law is given to us through moses.

 

That is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. I go on an entire tangent about sin, and you answer the question until we get to here...then you act as if I was asking about the law.

 

Anyways, you seem to answer my question in the next question. So all the commandments given by God in the Torah are the laws we should follow? Why do you not follow them?

 

i feel sure you are getting at the tiny little stuff, i am talking about the big stuff, like the 10 commandments. which i do follow to the best of my ability. I think Jesus made it clear that the petty stuff didn't matter.

 

Why does it exist?

 

satan desired to be the most high God and that was his downfall and the beginning of sin (Isaiah 14:12-15). Satan brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden, where he tempted Adam and Eve with the same enticement, “you shall be like God.”

 

Gen 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

 

Isaiah is referring to a king, not Satan.

 

It's interesting, however, that God would allow Satan to wreak havoc like that and ruin his creation.

I don't see where the correlation between Satan and the serpent in the Garden exists.

 

Anyways, your entire belief system centers on one event, the Garden, correct? What if that didn't happen? What now?

 

i think the reserection of Jesus is the most important part of the bible, not the introduction of sin. sin or bad morals are evident everywhere, we had this discussion a while back of where morals come from, and you decided that we make them. every one would agree that stealing, murder, adultry is wrong. this is sin, bad morals, bad judgement, evil.

 

it is my belief that before christ, this was how you got to heaven, but nobody can follow the law perfectly. only Jesus did. even the people in the OT that witnessed the miracles of the Lord would forget about it and resume thier sinfull ways.

 

Why can't they follow it perfectly? Because the aren't perfect. So why would God create something that is imperfect?

 

I thought it was because of sin that we are to be punished?

 

although i believe in baptising, i don't think it is neccisary for salvation. if you have Faith in Jesus and strive to be like him, wouldn't you want to get baptised because he did.

 

But it does say that he who believeth and is baptised will be saved. So I think your belief is a little off there.

 

You seem to be injecting a lot of your own ideas into things like "it is my belief" this, and "my belief" that.

 

these are the things that are subject to interpritation that i don't think make to much of a difference. yes, i believe in baptism, but i will not condone someone who has not been dunked.

[Vigile]

 

Blah, blah, the bible says, blah, blah, blah

 

 

You didn't answer anything. You just told us what your bible says. This isn't supported anywhere else, nor is any of it rational in any shape or form. The real question is, why should we care what the bible says? It's an old book with lots of mistakes that makes lots of irrational, unsupported claims.

 

I notice that you like to ignore posts like this that cut right to the bone of the argument and you like to pick up on the arguments from those that suffer your irrationality and humor you by debating your verse-by-verse interpretations. The reality is though, what I just wrote here is what we all think. If you wish to address us on a meaningful level, you need to address this issue first.

[SkepticOfBible]

transgressions of the law of God.

When christian start taking the law more seriously like observing the sabbath on saturday, abstain from eating pigs or celebrating pagan holidays such as christmas, perhaps then we'll take them more seriously.

every one would agree that stealing, murder, adultry is wrong. this is sin, bad morals, bad judgement, evil.

 

Not your God, aparently it doesn;t matter if some of his pet humans commit bad morals, such as King David.

 

Most people would also say slavery, genocide of people and infantcide(killing of children, babies, and pregant women) is wrong. Yet you have no problem worshipping a god who orders the same.

 

which i do follow to the best of my ability

So you observe the sabbath on a saturday?

 

but i will not condone someone who has not been dunked.

But jesus will.

[freeday]

Why does it exist?

 

satan desired to be the most high God and that was his downfall and the beginning of sin (Isaiah 14:12-15). Satan brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden, where he tempted Adam and Eve with the same enticement, "you shall be like God."

 

Gen 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Hi freeday,

Just wanted to question you on this.

If God created everything...everything would include such things as the earth, the stars, the little birdies, the big birdies, emotions, tears...abilities, talents, personalities...the angels...and that would include Lucifer.

Lucifer, according to Christianity became Satan. Lucifer, likewise, was somehow able to convince one-third of the remaining angels that God created, into siding with him in a rebellion against the almighty throne of Heaven.

Since God created everything...to include everything that Lucifer was...and Lucifer "sinned"...where did that ability come from? God must have been the first to conceive of said 'ability', to have made Lucifer capable of it... Otherwise, we have to conclude that Lucifer was capable of creating something outside of God's world. And, if that is the case, then God isn't all powerful...and isn't the Creator of this world.

Would you say?

 

i answered this a while back to the best of my ability, my answer is in post #92,

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...10034&st=80

 

 

 

Blah, blah, the bible says, blah, blah, blah

 

 

You didn't answer anything. You just told us what your bible says. This isn't supported anywhere else, nor is any of it rational in any shape or form. The real question is, why should we care what the bible says? It's an old book with lots of mistakes that makes lots of irrational, unsupported claims.

 

I notice that you like to ignore posts like this that cut right to the bone of the argument and you like to pick up on the arguments from those that suffer your irrationality and humor you by debating your verse-by-verse interpretations. The reality is though, what I just wrote here is what we all think. If you wish to address us on a meaningful level, you need to address this issue first.

 

that was not the purpose of this thread, hans asked a question, i answered it, i want to see where he was going with it.

 

transgressions of the law of God.

When christian start taking the law more seriously like observing the sabbath on saturday, abstain from eating pigs or celebrating pagan holidays such as christmas, perhaps then we'll take them more seriously.

every one would agree that stealing, murder, adultry is wrong. this is sin, bad morals, bad judgement, evil.

 

Not your God, aparently it doesn;t matter if some of his pet humans commit bad morals, such as King David.

 

that is the great thing with God, no matter how bad you have been, if you ask, you will recieve his mercy and forgiveness.

 

Most people would also say slavery, genocide of people and infantcide(killing of children, babies, and pregant women) is wrong. Yet you have no problem worshipping a god who orders the same.

 

the bible says he is a rightoues judge, so i can only assume the punishment fit the crime.

 

which i do follow to the best of my ability

So you observe the sabbath on a saturday?

 

i am not a jew, in Jesus' parables, he worked on a sunday. he made it known which laws were the important ones to follow. i think thier is a difference between laws and religous rituals.

 

but i will not condone someone who has not been dunked.

But jesus will.

 

we should follow his example, as stated, i believe in it, but i don't think it will give you a one way ticket to hell, if you don't

[All Gods Fail]

we should follow his example, as stated, i believe in it, but i don't think it will give you a one way ticket to hell, if you don't

 

Now that statement I find interesting. Why do you think it's not necessary after the bible makes it clear you should definitely be baptized? That seems a bit incongruous to me.

 

But then, I could never make sense of the xtian salvation plan.

[freeday]

we should follow his example, as stated, i believe in it, but i don't think it will give you a one way ticket to hell, if you don't

 

Now that statement I find interesting. Why do you think it's not necessary after the bible makes it clear you should definitely be baptized? That seems a bit incongruous to me.

 

But then, I could never make sense of the xtian salvation plan.

 

the bible says there is only one unforgiveable sin. but i believe, that God is so loving, if you don't maintain a persistent state of blasphemy against the holy spirit, then you can repent and be saved.

 

i strongly believe in a merciful and loving God.

[Vigile]

i strongly believe in a merciful and loving God.

 

But your definitions of mercy and love stray vastly from most people's commonly held definitions of these two attributes. They stray from the definitions used by most world courts. They stray from even your own perceptions when applied to those around you.

[Ouroboros]

When I stated the questions I had already laid out a series counter points from the Bible and logic, but I spent my day at work and later in the pool and just having family time. Now I realized I didn't have to post my responses, you guys pretty much took care of it. I might add my 5 cents tomorrow or Monday.

 

One of the counter points is definitely the definition of sin. If saved is "saved from sin", then "sin" has to be concept we can agree upon. Whatever we are saved from, we have to define what it is we're saved from. "Saved from X", so what is X, in a pure, simple and common understandable definition?

[Jubilant]

which i do follow to the best of my ability

So you observe the sabbath on a saturday?

i am not a jew, in Jesus' parables, he worked on a sunday. he made it known which laws were the important ones to follow.

 

You're not a "Jew" so that's why you don't observe the Sabbath and still eat pork? You're not a Jew but you believe in the JEWISH BIBLE???? If THE Sabbath is so trifle then why is it in with the big 10? Why is it that the other 9 commandments/laws are not Jewish but following the Sabbath is? Why is it that ALL of the other commands except those appearing Jewish are only for the Jewish people but excluded for Christians? I'd be reading Isaiah IN CONTEXT if'n I were you, according to Isaiah if a stranger wants gods goodies, they must become as the Jews.

 

If you celebrate Christmas and Easter you are breaking NEW TESTAMENT law, it's not so easy to brush aside with the lame excuse you gave above. Paul in Corinthians STRONGLY condemns mixing god worship with pagan worship in any way, shape or form. Better get down on your knees sinner, ask forgiveness, give up your tree and 'sin no more'. Otherwise, you're just a hypocrite. If thats to hard talk to your imaginery friend about it.

 

i think thier is a difference between laws and religous rituals.

 

You do realize that according to your theology that Jesus GAVE those "laws and rituals" in the first place, right? So I guess ole' god really screwed things up in the beginning now didn't he? The OT says ALL the law and commandments are PERFECT and ETERNAL, looks to me like Jesus (if existed) was a huckster, a con-artist, Satan perhaps? Only Satan would make such a mockery of god. It is for those reasons that Jews do not accept Christ, it is in THEIR law not to follow anyone who tries to get them to stray from gods commandments. BTW, that you don't understand Isaiah is referring to the King of Babylon in Isaiah 13 shows that someone had better bone up on the Old Testament.

[crazy-tiger]

I'm just going to weigh in with one vital point that no-one's mentioned...

 

Freeday's basing his answers on the Bible, but he's not managed to show that the Bible is a: the word of God or b: true...

 

Until he does those, his answers are as valid as me saying that sin is when you don't iuqweyvuwe your uiqwrn ert...

 

 

And Freeday? The Bible saying it is true is not proof of the Bible being true, since the Torah, the Quran and just about every other holy book that has ever existed have ALL said that they are true.

[freeday]

which i do follow to the best of my ability

So you observe the sabbath on a saturday?

i am not a jew, in Jesus' parables, he worked on a sunday. he made it known which laws were the important ones to follow.

 

You're not a "Jew" so that's why you don't observe the Sabbath and still eat pork? You're not a Jew but you believe in the JEWISH BIBLE???? If THE Sabbath is so trifle then why is it in with the big 10? Why is it that the other 9 commandments/laws are not Jewish but following the Sabbath is? Why is it that ALL of the other commands except those appearing Jewish are only for the Jewish people but excluded for Christians? I'd be reading Isaiah IN CONTEXT if'n I were you, according to Isaiah if a stranger wants gods goodies, they must become as the Jews.

 

If you celebrate Christmas and Easter you are breaking NEW TESTAMENT law, it's not so easy to brush aside with the lame excuse you gave above. Paul in Corinthians STRONGLY condemns mixing god worship with pagan worship in any way, shape or form. Better get down on your knees sinner, ask forgiveness, give up your tree and 'sin no more'. Otherwise, you're just a hypocrite. If thats to hard talk to your imaginery friend about it.

 

i think thier is a difference between laws and religous rituals.

 

You do realize that according to your theology that Jesus GAVE those "laws and rituals" in the first place, right? So I guess ole' god really screwed things up in the beginning now didn't he? The OT says ALL the law and commandments are PERFECT and ETERNAL, looks to me like Jesus (if existed) was a huckster, a con-artist, Satan perhaps? Only Satan would make such a mockery of god. It is for those reasons that Jews do not accept Christ, it is in THEIR law not to follow anyone who tries to get them to stray from gods commandments. BTW, that you don't understand Isaiah is referring to the King of Babylon in Isaiah 13 shows that someone had better bone up on the Old Testament.

 

the purpose of the mosiac law was to identify sin, nobody can follow the laws perfectly.

 

acts 15

10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

 

God provided laws for that time and culture, nothing wrong with the laws, but it is faith in Jesus that gets you to heaven. Jesus (who is God and made the laws in the 1st place) pointed out that the pharasees were to concerned about following ritual traditions and not concerned enough about the greatest comandment. Love God, Love others.

 

 

 

 

When I stated the questions I had already laid out a series counter points from the Bible and logic, but I spent my day at work and later in the pool and just having family time. Now I realized I didn't have to post my responses, you guys pretty much took care of it. I might add my 5 cents tomorrow or Monday.

 

One of the counter points is definitely the definition of sin. If saved is "saved from sin", then "sin" has to be concept we can agree upon. Whatever we are saved from, we have to define what it is we're saved from. "Saved from X", so what is X, in a pure, simple and common understandable definition?

 

you must be a math teacher, you are always breaking out formulas for that stuff, did you not like my definition of sin. i will work on a better on.

[Jubilant]

acts 15

10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

 

God provided laws for that time and culture, nothing wrong with the laws, but it is faith in Jesus that gets you to heaven. Jesus (who is God and made the laws in the 1st place) pointed out that the pharasees were to concerned about following ritual traditions and not concerned enough about the greatest comandment. Love God, Love others.

 

Typical response and your scripture from Acts doesn't fly with me. You see, anything that contradicts the Old Testament needs to be discarded, including: Acts, ALL gospels, in fact, the whole New Testament. If "loving god and others" was all that mattered regarding biblegod beliefs, it would be a short book. "Love god and others, if not you'll be eternally tortured"....THE END.

[SkepticOfBible]

the bible says he is a rightoues judge, so i can only assume the punishment fit the crime.

 

Please tell me what crimes that the babies commit so they recieve the just punishment? Was their crime was that they were just born in the wrong race?

 

i am not a jew, in Jesus' parables,

 

But you claim to follow the God of the old testament

 

he worked on a sunday.

 

The sabbath day is supposed to be celebrated on Saturday, not Sunday.

 

Funny you should say that, cause another christian on this board, kept on saying he did not work on the sabbath, therefore did not break the law

 

By breaking the sabbath law. God had no problem ordering a man to be killed, just because he was picking up sticks.Num 15:32-36, so why was Jesus spared.

 

BTW same question is for David. The punishment for adultary is death. So why was the Guy who picked up sticks put to death, but not King David?

he made it known which laws were the important ones to follow.

 

...

 

pointed out that the pharasees were to concerned about following ritual traditions and not concerned enough about the greatest comandment. Love God, Love others.

 

Apparently Jesus did not read his bible carefully.

 

Deut 6:17

Ye shall diligently keep the commandments(not some but all) of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes(laws), which he hath commanded thee.

 

(Underline my comment)

 

Eccl 12:13

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments(laws): for this is the whole duty of man.

 

Deut 6:25

And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

 

Deut 4:2

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

 

All laws are important not just some

 

So tell me why was it wrong for the pharisees to follow all the laws given in the Old testament, including the one about not working on the sabbath or abstaining from certain food?

 

i think thier is a difference between laws and religous rituals.

 

Prove so by using the old testament.

 

It says right there that all the laws are to be folllowed. There is no distinction. Eating a pig and being a homosexual is equal sin, so why aren't Christians opposing following a "lifestyle" of eating bacon?

 

the purpose of the mosiac law was to identify sin, nobody can follow the laws perfectly.

 

Apparently Yahwah thinks otherwise

 

Deut 30: 9-11 declares:

And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off(not too difficult to obey).

 

I have shown from your old bible, that there are people who have followed the law completely

 

BTW...doubting god's judgement is not sin according to the law given

 

are you trying to tell me that it is very difficult to refrain from working on sunday or abstain from eating pig?

[Vigile]

I'm just going to weigh in with one vital point that no-one's mentioned...

 

Freeday's basing his answers on the Bible, but he's not managed to show that the Bible is a: the word of God or b: true...

 

Until he does those, his answers are as valid as me saying that sin is when you don't iuqweyvuwe your uiqwrn ert...

 

 

And Freeday? The Bible saying it is true is not proof of the Bible being true, since the Torah, the Quran and just about every other holy book that has ever existed have ALL said that they are true.

 

No one? Check again