Fundamentals

[freeday]

Good points Chef,

 

Just to add to your first part. What about people that don't have the mental capability to make a good choice? There are people that have certain mental deficiencies that makes them unable to care for themselves, but yet should religion claim they are capable of making the choice of eternity? Where does God send the handicapped people?

 

would it be correct to say that before anyone goes to heaven, everyone will be judged. i think where the leaway is, is in his mercifull judgement. i honnestly believe the only ones going to hell are the people who blatently refute the word. i could be wrong, Jesus said the road to hell is wide and the road to heaven is narrow. but that could mean that it takes more effort to go to heaven. is this so far fetched. that the creater might want something in return.

 

 

hell even hitler stated to be a christian. but his actions did not implicate it.

Then enlighten us on how a "true Christian" is supposed to act please.

 

i will quote the Jesus and not pual. Love God, love others. its that simple.

[RHEMtron]

i will quote the Jesus and not pual. Love God, love others. its that simple.

Great... so youre saying Jews are Christians. There's verses in the Quran that teach men and women to love each other. So i guess Muslims are Christian too eh?

[Ouroboros]

chefranden: i love the card you are trying to play. if you don't believe word for word, you can't be a christian. how can you tell someone the are or aren't a christian. hell even hitler stated to be a christian. but his actions did not implicate it.

Exactly. How can you tell if someone is a christian or not? No one can. Supposedly only God knows whats in a mans heart, right? So, doesn't that mean that Christians commit false accusations when they judge other people for being false or true Christians? They supposedly don't know and can't know, but still judge, and yet the Bible say "don't judge".

 

If we start looking at each one of the "founding fathers" of Christianity, we will, without a doubt, find bad attitudes and wrong opinions amongst them. So if they were not perfect, and had faults, how can YOU or ANYONE make the call of deciding "this one is a true Christian, and this one is not?" No one can. So to take this further, how can you be sure Hitler wasn't a True Christian? By his actions? So are we back to judging True Christians by what they do, and not what they believe? How do you know what Hitler believed? Judge not, unless you'll be judged yourself.

 

HanSolo,

 

That is what a literal interpretation of the Bible says. My posts or excerpts from my post do not reflect that belief.

Yeah, I saw that, but you did say I do not believe that a murderer or rapist, or child molester is someone that has a nice place waiting for them after this life. And my answer is that you would not know, can't know, and should expect (if your faith is true) to find many murderes, rapists and child molesters in heaven. Many of those have converted and confessed their sins.

 

would it be correct to say that before anyone goes to heaven, everyone will be judged. i think where the leaway is, is in his mercifull judgement. i honnestly believe the only ones going to hell are the people who blatently refute the word. i could be wrong, Jesus said the road to hell is wide and the road to heaven is narrow. but that could mean that it takes more effort to go to heaven. is this so far fetched. that the creater might want something in return.

That's why I have a hard time (and many with me) to accept the "only he who confess Jesus as Lord, will go to Heaven" concept.

 

Think about this comparison. God is like a human, and we are like ants. Would you as a human, demand certain "moral" concepts or even "faith" or "belief" in certain things to save an ant, or to destroy an ant? Would you look at them, and if one ant doesn't work hard enough, you stamp him, or even better, you torch him with your magnifier glass? I don't think you're that kind of person, which shows that you have more empathy for ants, than God for his creation.

[Antlerman]

would it be correct to say that before anyone goes to heaven, everyone will be judged. i think where the leaway is, is in his mercifull judgement. i honnestly believe the only ones going to hell are the people who blatently refute the word. i could be wrong, Jesus said the road to hell is wide and the road to heaven is narrow. but that could mean that it takes more effort to go to heaven. is this so far fetched. that the creater might want something in return.

You mean all modern scholars? I would be one of those who deny the Bible as the word of God absolute. So I guess I would be one of those you have just sent to hell. If you don't mean that, you should be careful in how you say things.

 

Is it so far fetched that a creator might want something in return? Umm, no if you understand that God is a creation of man who anthropomorphizes God with human qualities. Even so, as I've said before the height of love should be asking nothing in return. This would seem to make God somewhat petty, don't you think? If I were to envision God, it would be one of unconditional love, not a love that expects something in return. Hopes for maybe, expects, no.

 

Now as far as your other comments about my experience with Christians being arrogant: I scarcely know where to begin!!! Yes, in my experience they were plenty arrogant. But this is far, far, far from a limited experience! All you need do is look at the news of these groups who presume to know how other humans should live their lives by *their readings* of the bible, condemning homosexuality, condemning the teaching of science, condemning other religious. Who could I possible be looking at? Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, George Bush, should I keep going? Now if you try to say that it's not them speaking, but its in God's word, then here is my answer and here it well:

 

1000 people read the bible 1000 ways, and if you should choose one of those 1000 ways that condemns other's, then it's about you. This is about what you value. This is about your ethics. This is about your heart. This is about your judgmental heart. This is about your narrow-minded condemnations of other humans. This is about your pride; your arrogance. It is not the Bible that sends people to hell, it is you who does by embracing those ways of reading it that promote and teach that. Truth is what you believe to be true. If you believe I am going to hell, you are the one judging. This is arrogant. This is anti-spiritual both for you and the whole world. This is the wide path = judging others, and choosing negative and condeming beliefs that support your heart's attitudes. Don't fool yourself saying it's what God says. God says what we want him to say.

 

Understand? This is why the type of Christianity that comes out of the hearts of men like Pat Robertson and company is an offense to humanity. It is an offense to the spirit of man. It is an offense to the name of God.

 

As far as God being a symbol and you’re thinking that he is more than that because people devote their whole lives to him: You don't understand what a symbol is. There is nothing inconsistent in my use of it with what you said. People lay their lives down defending the flag. The flag is a symbol of our country and inspires a life of patriotism. Symbols work as part of our language. God is in fact a symbol, whether real or imagined. The President is a symbol, etc, etc.

[K9 Jake]

HanSolo,

 

That is what a literal interpretation of the Bible says. My posts or excerpts from my post do not reflect that belief.

 

you have to watch out, you are going to trim and trim fat untill the next thing you know, you are a mormon.

 

chefranden: i love the card you are trying to play. if you don't believe word for word, you can't be a christian. how can you tell someone the are or aren't a christian. hell even hitler stated to be a christian. but his actions did not implicate it.

 

I was using trim the fat as a simple analogy. One could also argue that Mormons created a whole new layer of fat versus trimming it when they provided us with the Bible part II (Book of Mormom).

[K9 Jake]

Hansolo,

 

In regards to a murderer or rapist or child molester going to heaven. This would fall under my earlier statement "I don't know". I realize my religion of chosing is one of forgiveness. However I have little forgiveness in my heart for one of the forementioned people.

[freeday]

chefranden: i love the card you are trying to play. if you don't believe word for word, you can't be a christian. how can you tell someone the are or aren't a christian. hell even hitler stated to be a christian. but his actions did not implicate it.

Exactly. How can you tell if someone is a christian or not? No one can. Supposedly only God knows whats in a mans heart, right? So, doesn't that mean that Christians commit false accusations when they judge other people for being false or true Christians? They supposedly don't know and can't know, but still judge, and yet the Bible say "don't judge".

 

i try my best not to judge people, always give them the benifit of the doubt. but it is in human nature to do so. so just because you are a christian doesn't mean you will always be perfect. well actually, never perfect. so the religion shouldn't be judged on on the imperfect people. the "idea" of the religion is perfect in my opinion.

 

If we start looking at each one of the "founding fathers" of Christianity, we will, without a doubt, find bad attitudes and wrong opinions amongst them. So if they were not perfect, and had faults, how can YOU or ANYONE make the call of deciding "this one is a true Christian, and this one is not?" No one can. So to take this further, how can you be sure Hitler wasn't a True Christian? By his actions? So are we back to judging True Christians by what they do, and not what they believe? How do you know what Hitler believed? Judge not, unless you'll be judged yourself.

 

HanSolo,

 

That is what a literal interpretation of the Bible says. My posts or excerpts from my post do not reflect that belief.

Yeah, I saw that, but you did say I do not believe that a murderer or rapist, or child molester is someone that has a nice place waiting for them after this life. And my answer is that you would not know, can't know, and should expect (if your faith is true) to find many murderes, rapists and child molesters in heaven. Many of those have converted and confessed their sins.

 

would it be correct to say that before anyone goes to heaven, everyone will be judged. i think where the leaway is, is in his mercifull judgement. i honnestly believe the only ones going to hell are the people who blatently refute the word. i could be wrong, Jesus said the road to hell is wide and the road to heaven is narrow. but that could mean that it takes more effort to go to heaven. is this so far fetched. that the creater might want something in return.

That's why I have a hard time (and many with me) to accept the "only he who confess Jesus as Lord, will go to Heaven" concept.

 

Think about this comparison. God is like a human, and we are like ants. Would you as a human, demand certain "moral" concepts or even "faith" or "belief" in certain things to save an ant, or to destroy an ant? Would you look at them, and if one ant doesn't work hard enough, you stamp him, or even better, you torch him with your magnifier glass? I don't think you're that kind of person, which shows that you have more empathy for ants, than God for his creation.

 

i can't say why God in the OT judged some people harshly, but since the new covanant, not once has he been attributed to such disasters. I think he lets us lead out our life in whatever manner we please. i don't know if it is in this thread or not, but in reading the bible as a whole i get the picture, that he has tried to get us to worship him by creating, showing miracles, giving of prosperity, implimenting fear, giving prophets to predict the future. yet humans still refused to worship the one true God. so he changed things and created a new pact making it very easy to get to Heaven, as if taking a backseat and putting the ball in our court. that is just my interpritation of it. although it is easy to beleive, he also made it difficult. there is no proof of his existence, you have to have blind faith.

[freeday]

would it be correct to say that before anyone goes to heaven, everyone will be judged. i think where the leaway is, is in his mercifull judgement. i honnestly believe the only ones going to hell are the people who blatently refute the word. i could be wrong, Jesus said the road to hell is wide and the road to heaven is narrow. but that could mean that it takes more effort to go to heaven. is this so far fetched. that the creater might want something in return.

You mean all modern scholars? I would be one of those who deny the Bible as the word of God absolute. So I guess I would be one of those you have just sent to hell. If you don't mean that, you should be careful in how you say things.

 

i am not saying that, you can take that up with the religion. i didn't make the rules of the religion, i just follow them. you seem like an outstanding person, as most on here. that is not for me to judge. it is just up to me to tell you that wether you believe in him or not Jesus loves you! nothing more, nothing less.

 

Is it so far fetched that a creator might want something in return? Umm, no if you understand that God is a creation of man who anthropomorphizes God with human qualities. Even so, as I've said before the height of love should be asking nothing in return. This would seem to make God somewhat petty, don't you think? If I were to envision God, it would be one of unconditional love, not a love that expects something in return. Hopes for maybe, expects, no.

 

Now as far as your other comments about my experience with Christians being arrogant: I scarcely know where to begin!!! Yes, in my experience they were plenty arrogant. But this is far, far, far from a limited experience! All you need do is look at the news of these groups who presume to know how other humans should live their lives by *their readings* of the bible, condemning homosexuality, condemning the teaching of science, condemning other religious. Who could I possible be looking at? Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, George Bush, should I keep going? Now if you try to say that it's not them speaking, but its in God's word, then here is my answer and here it well:

 

1000 people read the bible 1000 ways, and if you should choose one of those 1000 ways that condemns other's, then it's about you. This is about what you value. This is about your ethics. This is about your heart. This is about your judgmental heart. This is about your narrow-minded condemnations of other humans. This is about your pride; your arrogance. It is not the Bible that sends people to hell, it is you who does by embracing those ways of reading it that promote and teach that. Truth is what you believe to be true. If you believe I am going to hell, you are the one judging. This is arrogant. This is anti-spiritual both for you and the whole world. This is the wide path = judging others, and choosing negative and condeming beliefs that support your heart's attitudes. Don't fool yourself saying it's what God says. God says what we want him to say.

 

Understand? This is why the type of Christianity that comes out of the hearts of men like Pat Robertson and company is an offense to humanity. It is an offense to the spirit of man. It is an offense to the name of God.

 

i will agree with you on this one. i think the bible leaves much up to the interpritation. i can actually point out a verse in the bible that people interpret it as condeming homosexuals. i think the core values are well understood, and the rest is up to human interpritation. luckily the church has changed a bit over the years, from a turn or burn, get right with God attitude, to a loving God that seeks your heart. the church i go to now stresses the importance of putting God first in our lives and worshiping him passionately, not what things we are doing wrong in our lives.

 

As far as God being a symbol and you’re thinking that he is more than that because people devote their whole lives to him: You don't understand what a symbol is. There is nothing inconsistent in my use of it with what you said. People lay their lives down defending the flag. The flag is a symbol of our country and inspires a life of patriotism. Symbols work as part of our language. God is in fact a symbol, whether real or imagined. The President is a symbol, etc, etc.

 

i understand what you are saying, with my faith, i have a hard time looking at him as a symbol. bill orielly called him a symbol once, i sent him an email saying he is so much more.

 

 

Hansolo,

 

In regards to a murderer or rapist or child molester going to heaven. This would fall under my earlier statement "I don't know". I realize my religion of chosing is one of forgiveness. However I have little forgiveness in my heart for one of the forementioned people.

 

this is what i was saying earlier, it is very difficult not to judge others, it is our human nature, i think even hans would agree that these people are scum of the earth, and deserve the harshest punishment.

[K9 Jake]

Lest you forget: Stupid little boys don't know what people deserve. Stupid little boys don't know what is/is not the scum of the earth. Stupid little boys send emails to Bill O'Reilly.

 

Please tell me you where being facetious with that post.

[Ouroboros]

Hansolo,

 

In regards to a murderer or rapist or child molester going to heaven. This would fall under my earlier statement "I don't know". I realize my religion of chosing is one of forgiveness. However I have little forgiveness in my heart for one of the forementioned people.

Yes, I can completely understand the unforgiveness we feel to these people, and it's good that you do take the stand that you don't know. If you really think about it. If you have kids, and one of your kids do something really bad, will you douche him in fuel and put a match to it and burn him to death for it, or would you, as a loving parent, be able to forgive them? Most parents, not all, and also depending on what the kid did, want to and will forgive. And next, imagine that this kid did this in spit of what you had said, that in fact, the kid didn't believe your guidance and did it opposite to what you taught. You would be upset, but you wouldn't send him to a prison for it, or to a foreign country and forget about him. So put that in the context of an "all loving God". An All Loving God would not punish anyone for eternity, but would show grace and pardon, and an all Loving God would not judge based on peoples actions through non-faith to his words. To me, the Christian God show less Love than I do to my kids. And that is a serious offense of God himself.

 

i can't say why God in the OT judged some people harshly, but since the new covanant, not once has he been attributed to such disasters. I think he lets us lead out our life in whatever manner we please. i don't know if it is in this thread or not, but in reading the bible as a whole i get the picture, that he has tried to get us to worship him by creating, showing miracles, giving of prosperity, implimenting fear, giving prophets to predict the future. yet humans still refused to worship the one true God. so he changed things and created a new pact making it very easy to get to Heaven, as if taking a backseat and putting the ball in our court. that is just my interpritation of it. although it is easy to beleive, he also made it difficult. there is no proof of his existence, you have to have blind faith.

Then what about "God can not change", that he is "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow"? If God is omniscient, how come he had to experiment to figure things out? And why, in his all powerful mind that managed to create DNA and a soul in humans, couldn't he figure out the psychological effects on the religion he started with Moses? Your descriptions sounds like a non-omnipotent, non-omniscient and non-omnipresent God. Is that what you believe now? Your description of God is a God with Human traits and limitations.

 

Hansolo,

 

In regards to a murderer or rapist or child molester going to heaven. This would fall under my earlier statement "I don't know". I realize my religion of chosing is one of forgiveness. However I have little forgiveness in my heart for one of the forementioned people.

 

this is what i was saying earlier, it is very difficult not to judge others, it is our human nature, i think even hans would agree that these people are scum of the earth, and deserve the harshest punishment.

I don't like that kind of people, that's for sure, but it only takes one injury or one brain cancer to turn one man into exactly "that kind of people". And that's the scary part. Both you and I, dislike people that do these things, and yet, it doesn't take much to injury you or me and make us the same kind of monster. Some of these people, know what they do is wrong, but can't stop themselves. And in some cases it can be seen that there is a tumor or injury or deficiency in the frontal lobe or other important part of the brain that helps us control ourself. That is very scary. But even more scary is that a perfectly good person, becoming a monster, will go to Hell for the reason of brain defect. (And I know K9Jake, you don't believe that.) But then again, if they are really, really sorry and ask Jesus into their hearts, they will go to Heaven.

[Antlerman]

I’m going to repost parts of my previous post and your responses to show you how your responses are talking different things:

 

You originally said:

i honnestly believe the only ones going to hell are the people who blatently refute the word.

I responded:

You mean all modern scholars? I would be one of those who deny the Bible as the word of God absolute. So I guess I would be one of those you have just sent to hell. If you don't mean that, you should be careful in how you say things.

Then continued my thoughts saying:

1000 people read the bible 1000 ways, and if you should choose one of those 1000 ways that condemns other's, then it's about you. This is about what you value.

<snip>

Don't fool yourself saying it's what God says. God says what we want him to say.

In the following post you first answered:

i am not saying that, you can take that up with the religion. i didn't make the rules of the religion, i just follow them.

Thus doing exactly what I said you would try to do: say it’s not you choosing a theology of condemnation of others, but God who saying it, deflecting responsibility. You just did it right there above by saying “I am not saying that, you can take that up with the religion. I didn’t make the rules of the religion”

 

Next you then contradict yourself by adding:

i will agree with you on this one. i think the bible leaves much up to the interpritation. i can actually point out a verse in the bible that people interpret it as condeming homosexuals. i think the core values are well understood, and the rest is up to human interpritation.

So what is it? Yes the Bible is open to interpretation and when people choose a theology of judgment, it is reflective of their own hearts and surrounding culture, or no, it is clear that God condemns homosexuals and it is not me saying this, but God?

 

Bottom line so you don’t miss it: Men create God in their own image. If God condemns in that person’s beliefs, they are the one’s who make God condemn. If God loves unconditionally in that person’s beliefs, they are the one’s who are aspiring to love unconditionally.

 

The Bible is more than just open to interpretation in “some areas”. Those who see ANY verses as black and white, clear cut, absolute truth, are projecting their values onto it and calling those values of their own as “black and white” and “absolute”. You see? God is us. What you choose to believe about God, speaks about you as a person.

 

At this point, I hear you saying two different things. This sounds like you are in conflict between your heart and the theology of your traditions.

[K9 Jake]

Antlerman,

 

I like the way you worded your last statement. "This sounds like you are in conflict between your heart and the theology of your traditions".

 

Now I know this was not addressed to me, but I like it. And I think it very nearly, if not completely, sums up why I now believe what I feel in my heart versus what I was taught.

[freeday]

Antlerman:

 

i don't think i contradicted myself. i stated the core values are well understood. when you were a christian or anyone else for that matter. in reading the bible did you not inferr the statement i made above. i can't say for certain, 100% without a doubt, who exactly will go to hell. that is up to the judge.

 

as far as interpritation. i was talking about the little stuff, i think that is what creates different sects in christianity. some have a very literal interpritation, some have a very laxed interpritation. i find myself in the middle of the road. i believe everything happened in the bible. but its meanings could be construed a variety of ways.

 

i don't think that man made God relevant to its culture, instead i think God allowed varous interpritations to allow for varous cultures.

[chefranden]

1. Yes, I believe in a God that may or may not be real. Just as you do not believe in a God that may or may not be real. If nothing else, just think of it as "perception is reality" atleast to the person. You percieve there is no God, thus in your reality there isn't one. I perceive there is one, thus in my reality there is.

 

2. The God that a person choses is real to them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality

 

3. Who is to say who the "real God" is? You don't believe in said God, so my choice should be inconsequential to you, unless I project my beliefs on you, or try to convince you that I am right and you are wrong. Simply because I dislike something does not mean I don't believe in its existance.

 

3a But in this particular case, I do not believe that God would judge an innocent person or child to a life of damnation. So no, I don't believe that God is like that. That is just a simple explanation.

 

4. By the very little that I have read on universalist, no I am not a universalist. The one thing that stuck out to me is that they believe that 'all will be saved'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalist I do not believe that all will be saved if I am understanding "all" to mean every last person on the planet. I do not believe that a murderer or rapist, or child molester is someone that has a nice place waiting for them after this life.

1. ChristianGod, by the problem of evil, is a logical impossibility and therefore doesn't exist. If that is the God to which you refer then the God I don't believe in isn't real. But you put under your name that you believe in Jehovah, that's a horse of a different color since old J is ready to accept responsibility for evil. (Isaiah 45:7). At the same time you say you are a Christian, most confusing.

 

2. A Schizophrenic really hears voices that aren't there. Is that the sort of reality you mean? That is, this God is in your head and nowhere else? Or are you a solipist creating your own reality and populating it with Gods and demons as you see fit?

 

I can accept that this God exists as a construct of your mind, but I don't understand how that sets any real parameters in the world outside of your head for salvation or lack thereof for others, which is, I think, the subject of this tread.

 

3. Your choice of God probably is inconsequential to me, unless you are person with authority that effects me.

 

3a. I see the little black pixels on my screen, but they are saying very little. This is what I'm getting: God exists as a consequence of your belief.

 

4. But here you seem to imply that there is a real God ourside of your head that will be mean to bad guys in the sweet by and by (instead of right now when it might be of some use). So this God in your head is real out here too, I quess, but you can't supply us with any fundimentals about pleasing it -- only that it makes you happy to think of it.

 

Now you call me dishonest for not calling Paul on bullshit. I think thats a bitch move on your part. I told you that I am not saying I am right and you are wrong. I say again, I am not saying that I am right and you are wrong.

 

I am NOT here to convince you or anyone else to believe like I do. I am here to save no one. I am here to debate, talk, and maybe even learn a thing or two. There seem to be alot of people around here who really like to think, and I like being around that.

Yes I do call you this. You seem to think that God is about salvation (I suppose from something dangerous), and yet write about it as if we are arguing over the best wine to have with salmon. I'm not saying that you are saying that you are right and I wrong. I'm saying that you are not saying anything. You are in the shower and there is no rope on your soap.

 

You aren't here to convert you say but to debate. That is fine. But so far you haven,t choosen any ground to defend -- might be this might be that. I'm just feeling around the usual Christian formations trying to locate your flanks so far without success. No one can debate your feelings.

[Antlerman]

Antlerman:

 

i don't think i contradicted myself. i stated the core values are well understood. when you were a christian or anyone else for that matter. in reading the bible did you not inferr the statement i made above. i can't say for certain, 100% without a doubt, who exactly will go to hell. that is up to the judge.

 

as far as interpritation. i was talking about the little stuff, i think that is what creates different sects in christianity. some have a very literal interpritation, some have a very laxed interpritation. i find myself in the middle of the road. i believe everything happened in the bible. but its meanings could be construed a variety of ways.

 

i don't think that man made God relevant to its culture, instead i think God allowed varous interpritations to allow for varous cultures.

What I am driving at is that those core values you cite are in fact very much a matter of interpretation. Your thoughts that all the sects of Christianity are over little things, little interpretations are really not valid.

 

Let's look at the RCC versus the Lutherans for instance. The entire authority of the church is interpreted differently. The RCC sees "Upon this Rock (peter) I will build my church". That's not a small thing. Fundamentalism interprets nearly everything in scripture literally, including a 6000 year old universe. Some churches allow women pastors, other's read it literally and forbid women pastors; some churches allow gay ministers, other churches damn them to the fires of hell; some churches read the Trinity in the Bible, others see no Trinity. Some churches say you must be baptized as an adult to be saved, others that as an infant is good enough; some say you have to speak in tongues to be saved, others that the gifts ended in the first century.

 

These are all very core doctrines, and ALL of them are based on interpretation. So again... as I said before... if you embrace one of those churches that teach condemnation of other human beings, you are choosing an interpretation that suits your values. You are responsible, not God.

 

So all that said, why do you feel anyone is deserving of hell? Again, God doesn't say this clearly at all, many, many churches don't accept the doctrine of hell. You however are. Why? What is there in you that thinks people deserve hell? Now I know you say you really don't like to focus on that, and that has some meaning, but again.... this shows you in conflict. Why would you need to ignore it? I personally think you find it replusive as the rest of humanity does, but feel beholden to your religious associations.

 

BTW, I think if you really look at world religions it will become pretty apparent that man is behind the creation of gods in their own image. Your twist to it doesn't really work all that well, anthropologically speaking.

[freeday]

Antlerman:

 

i don't think i contradicted myself. i stated the core values are well understood. when you were a christian or anyone else for that matter. in reading the bible did you not inferr the statement i made above. i can't say for certain, 100% without a doubt, who exactly will go to hell. that is up to the judge.

 

as far as interpritation. i was talking about the little stuff, i think that is what creates different sects in christianity. some have a very literal interpritation, some have a very laxed interpritation. i find myself in the middle of the road. i believe everything happened in the bible. but its meanings could be construed a variety of ways.

 

i don't think that man made God relevant to its culture, instead i think God allowed varous interpritations to allow for varous cultures.

What I am driving at is that those core values you cite are in fact very much a matter of interpretation. Your thoughts that all the sects of Christianity are over little things, little interpretations are really not valid.

 

Let's look at the RCC versus the Lutherans for instance. The entire authority of the church is interpreted differently. The RCC sees "Upon this Rock (peter) I will build my church". That's not a small thing. Fundamentalism interprets nearly everything in scripture literally, including a 6000 year old universe. Some churches allow women pastors, other's read it literally and forbid women pastors; some churches allow gay ministers, other churches damn them to the fires of hell; some churches read the Trinity in the Bible, others see no Trinity. Some churches say you must be baptized as an adult to be saved, others that as an infant is good enough; some say you have to speak in tongues to be saved, others that the gifts ended in the first century.

 

this is what i consider to be trivial stuff. i am talking about the big stuff, we all agree on the 10 comandments and that Jesus is the son of God. these are the core elements that i think are important.

 

These are all very core doctrines, and ALL of them are based on interpretation. So again... as I said before... if you embrace one of those churches that teach condemnation of other human beings, you are choosing an interpretation that suits your values. You are responsible, not God.

 

i think the little stuff can be left up to interpritation. i think that catholics beleive when you die, you go to a holding area until Jesus' second coming, most baptist believe that when you die, you imediately go to Heaven. i don't think it matters either way.

 

So all that said, why do you feel anyone is deserving of hell? Again, God doesn't say this clearly at all, many, many churches don't accept the doctrine of hell. You however are. Why? What is there in you that thinks people deserve hell? Now I know you say you really don't like to focus on that, and that has some meaning, but again.... this shows you in conflict. Why would you need to ignore it? I personally think you find it replusive as the rest of humanity does, but feel beholden to your religious associations.

 

i personally don't think anyone deserving of hell, when I read the bible, i interpret what i beleive might get me there, not anyone else. therefore I live my life accordingly. if you read it, you might have a different feeling of what would send you there. i think this is a cause of many sects of christianity. the roman catholics are much more into the rituals than the baptist. we focus more on what will get you to heaven, not hell.

 

BTW, I think if you really look at world religions it will become pretty apparent that man is behind the creation of gods in their own image. Your twist to it doesn't really work all that well, anthropologically speaking.

[K9 Jake]

Chefranden,

 

1. Yahweh and Jehovah are two different English transcriptions which are accepted by both Jews and Christians as being their god's Hebrew name, as it was preserved in the original consonantal Hebrew text. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

 

 

2. No I am not Schizophrenic, and no I am not a solipsist versus a "solipist". '

A. The theory that the self is the only thing that can be known and verified.

B. The theory or view that the self is the only reality.

C. A metaphysical belief that nothing beyond oneself and one's internal experiences does in fact exist, and that all objects, people, etc, that one experiences are merely parts of one's own mind.

 

Parameters have been set, becasue I still use my Christian teachings as my base of belief.

 

 

3. Unless you are in the military and subject to the UCMJ and/or are breaking the state or federal laws on a US Air Force installation, then no, I have no form of authority over you. Even if I did have any authority over you, what would it matter if I am uninterested in whether or not we share the same beliefs. I have a secret for you. Hundreds of thousands of individuals that are given a position of authority over both you and I throughout our lifetimes believe something different than we do. This country was founded in part on freedom from religious persecution. We do not all have to believe the same thing. If I didnt believe that, I would not be in the military helping defend an American citizens right to chose what they believe in.

 

3a. Negative. I believe that God exists. Therefore my beliefs are a consequence of his existence.

 

 

4. You said: "But you can't supply US with any fundamentals about pleasing it". What you should have said is you can't supply ME with any fundamentals about pleasing it. I'm not sure what exactly you are looking for me to say. I can say that I have faith in my God ( I pray atleast once a day) , and that I try to live a productive and honest life. I try to show love, compassion, and forgiveness in my day to day life. I think this pleases him.

 

I am here to debate. I am also here to talk, and to maybe learn a thing or two. Just as you quoted, but did not address. I am here to know why people believe the things they do. Why some maintain faith and some lose it. I am here to read about debates between Science and Religion and maybe even participate if I think I have something constructive to offer. I believe both can co-exists. Obviously some don't. I would agree with you, that you can't debate my feelings, nor can I debate yours. Regardless, you seem to give it a try anyway.

 

Again you call me dishonest. Why? Be specific. Better yet, prove it.

 

Yes I believe in salvation. I believe in Heaven and Hell. But as I said, I do not believe that if there is a Heaven that its an RSVP for Christians only.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Jake, you have made some seriously important points, and I must admit that through reading your posts, and perhaps freeday's and amy marie's, there was this tug a the back of my conscience that I can't explain in any way other than to say that something, someone was talking to me. I thought I was a christian before, because I did all the things and I believed with all my heart, but I have honestly and sincerely never felt this before.

 

When I read your words I break out into a cold sweat and my life flashes before my eyes, well specifically the spiritually significant moments, and I know that I have had every opportunity to accept Christ, but I couldn't because of my weaknesses, the sins I wasn't ready to give up for God.

 

I feel.....I don't want to say it, but I feel ashamed, and like I've just been pretending in a world I hoped was real, but I cannot deny that the blood of Christ is the only real thing I've ever known. Even throughout my years of apostasy I would seek out things that drew me in some way close to Jesus. When the Passion of the Christ came out I went to see it alone and sat in the back and wept all the way throuhg. I even stayed for 2 more showings without paying, something I'm ashamed of now.

 

But, I get it, I see. It's not about facts or books or word papers, it's about a feeling that you get that you just dont have the words to describe. It's a feeling that covers you like a warm blanket, and comforts you when the world barks at you like Cerberus. It's a cocoon that binds you from the din of this world and feeds you with the nectar of Christ.

 

I see now, I have been so wrong. Please, please help me to repair this broken bond. I'm afraid it might be too late.

[RHEMtron]

this is what i consider to be trivial stuff. i am talking about the big stuff, we all agree on the 10 comandments and that Jesus is the son of God. these are the core elements that i think are important.

So you think the role women play in church is trivial? You dont think they can be a major influence on a congregation? Who are you to decide what's important in Christianity? God? You cannot omit rules and laws given in the bible. You cannot deem them unimportant. Rhemember:

 

2 Timothy 3:16: All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Wait though, Rhem. He's onto something. The Ten Commandments are perfect, and no one can argue otherwise. I myself know that when I type on Saturday I can feel the presence of the enemy nearby, and when I think I might be doing wrong, his supple voice is there in my ear like a muted siren.

[RHEMtron]

you felt that pressence too?! i felt it while i was desiring and scheming to obtain what God has given to my neighbor.

[freeday]

Jake, you have made some seriously important points, and I must admit that through reading your posts, and perhaps freeday's and amy marie's, there was this tug a the back of my conscience that I can't explain in any way other than to say that something, someone was talking to me. I thought I was a christian before, because I did all the things and I believed with all my heart, but I have honestly and sincerely never felt this before.

 

When I read your words I break out into a cold sweat and my life flashes before my eyes, well specifically the spiritually significant moments, and I know that I have had every opportunity to accept Christ, but I couldn't because of my weaknesses, the sins I wasn't ready to give up for God.

 

I feel.....I don't want to say it, but I feel ashamed, and like I've just been pretending in a world I hoped was real, but I cannot deny that the blood of Christ is the only real thing I've ever known. Even throughout my years of apostasy I would seek out things that drew me in some way close to Jesus. When the Passion of the Christ came out I went to see it alone and sat in the back and wept all the way throuhg. I even stayed for 2 more showings without paying, something I'm ashamed of now.

 

But, I get it, I see. It's not about facts or books or word papers, it's about a feeling that you get that you just dont have the words to describe. It's a feeling that covers you like a warm blanket, and comforts you when the world barks at you like Cerberus. It's a cocoon that binds you from the din of this world and feeds you with the nectar of Christ.

 

I see now, I have been so wrong. Please, please help me to repair this broken bond. I'm afraid it might be too late.

 

God is more than a feeling, feelings come a go, trust and knowledge of the Lord doesn't. i will pray for you if this is how you truely feel.

[freeday]

this is what i consider to be trivial stuff. i am talking about the big stuff, we all agree on the 10 comandments and that Jesus is the son of God. these are the core elements that i think are important.

So you think the role women play in church is trivial? You dont think they can be a major influence on a congregation? Who are you to decide what's important in Christianity? God? You cannot omit rules and laws given in the bible. You cannot deem them unimportant. Rhemember:

 

2 Timothy 3:16: All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

 

Matthew 28:18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations"

 

notice he said all nations, not all men or only men.

 

i don't care who is proclaiming the gospel, as long as they preach it correctly. why is a person who doesn't believe in any of the bible telling me what i can and can't believe in.

 

1 reference to gospels

[Antlerman]

Antlerman,

 

I like the way you worded your last statement. "This sounds like you are in conflict between your heart and the theology of your traditions".

 

Now I know this was not addressed to me, but I like it. And I think it very nearly, if not completely, sums up why I now believe what I feel in my heart versus what I was taught.

You are where most Christians or anyone of any faith needs to get to. The first sermon I ever preached was the only one that ever really needs to be preached, that you should "love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself." The focus of our minds and hearts should be on the higher ideals that God stands as a symbol of, and that from these "divine" attitudes we set our hearts upon, our attitudes and actions will flow naturally to ourselves and our fellow man. "Love works no ill", and therefore is the fulfillment of all the laws of "God". When people focus on "The Law", as "The Truth", they are focused on themselves "obeying", and not focusing on the attitudes of "the source" that will naturally flow out to others in our actions.

 

This "Greatest Commandment" transcends all religions and philosophies. As an atheist I find truth in it, even though to me "God" is not an external living being with totally independent thought from humanity's collective creation of him. Still, what "He" symbolizes is a human ideal that has benefit on many levels. "God" exists (or is believed in) because he is useful to humans. My opposition to "God" is really towards people whose attitudes turn that symbol into a weapon of cultural attitudes that divide. What kills the power of that symbol is Fundamentalism. Fundamentalism kills. Legalism kills. Literalism kills. Dogma kills. Their focus result in attitudes and actions of judgment, condemnation, arogance, death and damnation - not love, brotherhood, peace, hope, and life... or to dare use the word.... "salvation".

 

I am happy for you that you are able to break free from the chains of doctrine, to follow the attitudes of your own heart.

[NotBlinded]

i personally don't think anyone deserving of hell, when I read the bible, i interpret what i beleive might get me there, not anyone else. therefore I live my life accordingly. if you read it, you might have a different feeling of what would send you there. i think this is a cause of many sects of christianity. the roman catholics are much more into the rituals than the baptist. we focus more on what will get you to heaven, not hell.

So, it's all about the rewards? Keep your eye on the prize...no wonder the man-made creation of god reflects these values, otherwise, god would do good for the sake of doing good with no rewards being expected (or offered other than the reward of doing it).

 

Here is what Antlerman said:

 

Is it so far fetched that a creator might want something in return? Umm, no if you understand that God is a creation of man who anthropomorphizes God with human qualities. Even so, as I've said before the height of love should be asking nothing in return. This would seem to make God somewhat petty, don't you think? If I were to envision God, it would be one of unconditional love, not a love that expects something in return. Hopes for maybe, expects, no.

 

You are just wanting to do good things in hopes of a reward. There are people that live their daily lives doing good that don't believe in any god that will grant them rewards for doing these things. Is this why 'christians' say that atheists/non-afterlife believers have no morals...because they are not seeking rewards for their actions? Who's moral system is better...those who do good for goodness sake or those that are seeking a reward for doing good?

 

I can see where the problem is...doing good for rewards. They only reward one should desire is the personal feeling of happiness when they do something good, not some false helping of 'love' because you're wanting something out of it.

 

Sorry for the rant...I know it's not obvious to you, but if you do ever understand what we are trying to tell you, you will slap yourself.