Chains Of Christianty

[ricky18]

Hey guys. I know i seem like an idiot for not allowing myself to be totally free from an eternity. Nothing can justify this punishment.

 

I just wont go back yet I cant block out the 1% of it all being true. The fact that we don’t know for sure is the 1% of it being real. Even if its real I will never see god as a loving god xtianity. 2 Things I know for sure 1 – The Bible isn’t perfect, filled with errors. 2 – No matter what happens I could never serve a god again that sends people to hell for but as a heartless entity that has no mercy and we all know its impossible to serve a god if u have that perception of him. All of us who turned from christianty

Really know what its like to live in fear of hell. We have imagined it day and night for a long time before we found this site. That’s how we came to believe the punishment is sickening and total injustice. We’ve seen the true horror and injustice for what it is. A xtian never really sees it because he doesn’t live that fear.

 

I still struggle with this every day of my life and wish why the hell couldn’t I’ve have a had normal life like other people? Why did I believe the bull the church fed me. People are enjoying their lives out there because they coudn’t be bothered about religion.

 

How does things get better. Are some of u guys still struggling like me? Or u living a happy life.

[Open_Minded]

Hey guys. I know i seem like an idiot for not allowing myself to be totally free from an eternity. Nothing can justify this punishment.

 

I just wont go back yet I cant block out the 1% of it all being true. The fact that we don’t know for sure is the 1% of it being real. Even if its real I will never see god as a loving god xtianity. 2 Things I know for sure 1 – The Bible isn’t perfect, filled with errors. 2 – No matter what happens I could never serve a god again that sends people to hell for but as a heartless entity that has no mercy and we all know its impossible to serve a god if u have that perception of him. All of us who turned from christianty

Really know what its like to live in fear of hell. We have imagined it day and night for a long time before we found this site. That’s how we came to believe the punishment is sickening and total injustice. We’ve seen the true horror and injustice for what it is. A xtian never really sees it because he doesn’t live that fear.

 

I still struggle with this every day of my life and wish why the hell couldn’t I’ve have a had normal life like other people? Why did I believe the bull the church fed me. People are enjoying their lives out there because they coudn’t be bothered about religion.

 

How does things get better. Are some of u guys still struggling like me? Or u living a happy life.

 

Hello Ricky...

 

Well - I was never taught to believe in a literalist hell - so I've not had the struggles you are writing about.

 

However, both of my parents left Christianity when I was a young teenager. I watched them struggle through the early years after leaving. Struggle through everything from letting go of a lot of the church teachings and dogma all the way to dealing with friends and family.

 

I can tell you that was 35 years ago. Mom and Dad have been married 53 years - and they are very happy. Long ago they left all that behind them - it is ancient history to them now. It does pass - Ricky, just give yourself time and be patient. You're having to unlearn a lot of garbage.

[freeday]

Hey guys. I know i seem like an idiot for not allowing myself to be totally free from an eternity. Nothing can justify this punishment.

 

I just wont go back yet I cant block out the 1% of it all being true. The fact that we don’t know for sure is the 1% of it being real. Even if its real I will never see god as a loving god xtianity. 2 Things I know for sure 1 – The Bible isn’t perfect, filled with errors. 2 – No matter what happens I could never serve a god again that sends people to hell for but as a heartless entity that has no mercy and we all know its impossible to serve a god if u have that perception of him. All of us who turned from christianty

Really know what its like to live in fear of hell. We have imagined it day and night for a long time before we found this site. That’s how we came to believe the punishment is sickening and total injustice. We’ve seen the true horror and injustice for what it is. A xtian never really sees it because he doesn’t live that fear.

 

I still struggle with this every day of my life and wish why the hell couldn’t I’ve have a had normal life like other people? Why did I believe the bull the church fed me. People are enjoying their lives out there because they coudn’t be bothered about religion.

 

How does things get better. Are some of u guys still struggling like me? Or u living a happy life.

 

so what's a normal life anyway. who is to say believing or not believing in hell is normall. these are feeling you have to decide for yourself. i think you can enjoy your life with or without religion. and fear should not be what leads you to a religion. i think it should be something that fills a void in your life. even if its just a percieved one.

[Amanda]

so what's a normal life anyway. who is to say believing or not believing in hell is normall.

Freeday, wouldn't you say that living in fear of something that is totally impossible and illogical NOT normal? Fear can be a great indoctorination tool for brainwashing, IMO. Wouldn't you say that letting go of fear and bringing in rational thought a more normal approach?

[Madie]

hey ricky,

try living in fear that your "unsaved" family members will go to hell as well. my grandma passed away never accepting the "gospel of salvation" -- imagine the torment...

[Fweethawt]

The fact that we don’t know for sure is the 1% of it being real.

You're right.

Ricky, you're caught in the big What If™ thingy that a lot of people can't let go of. Amy's agreement with you certainly does not mean that that 1% (whatever you mean by that) makes the whole thing true. As a matter of fact, even thinking that way is more ridiculous than say -- a talking serpent!

 

Here's my little trick that I taught myself in order to get past the big What If™.

 

What if serpents talk?

What if fruit is magical?

What if unicorns exist?

What if satyrs exist?

What if virgins do get pregnant without having sex?

What if people do walk on water?

What if people do come back from the dead?

What if Goliath really did get killed twice?

What if a dragon really does smack stars down with it's tail?

 

Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

The bible is written in such a way that all that I mentioned above is factual, even though it is not nor can be.

 

So, what was that 1% that you are talking about anyway?

[Asuryan]

You're right.

 

 

 

Wow. That was DEEP.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

None of us here ever thought about it THAT way. Thanks for your insight. God sent you here for sure.

[Guest Superstition_Free]

Hey guys. I know i seem like an idiot for not allowing myself to be totally free from an eternity. Nothing can justify this punishment.

 

I just wont go back yet I cant block out the 1% of it all being true. The fact that we don’t know for sure is the 1% of it being real. Even if its real I will never see god as a loving god xtianity. 2 Things I know for sure 1 – The Bible isn’t perfect, filled with errors. 2 – No matter what happens I could never serve a god again that sends people to hell for but as a heartless entity that has no mercy and we all know its impossible to serve a god if u have that perception of him. All of us who turned from christianty

Really know what its like to live in fear of hell. We have imagined it day and night for a long time before we found this site. That’s how we came to believe the punishment is sickening and total injustice. We’ve seen the true horror and injustice for what it is. A xtian never really sees it because he doesn’t live that fear.

 

I still struggle with this every day of my life and wish why the hell couldn’t I’ve have a had normal life like other people? Why did I believe the bull the church fed me. People are enjoying their lives out there because they coudn’t be bothered about religion.

 

How does things get better. Are some of u guys still struggling like me? Or u living a happy life.

Regarding the Bible: If you can't believe it all, how can you believe ANY of it?

 

It's bullshit and NO true god would expect you to believe anything as obviously flawed as the Bible.

 

I know it can be hard at first, but you will eventually drop the guilt/fear trip completely. Then the only problem you will have is maybe a little bitterness for the time wasted on this ignorant delusion.

[-Demona-]

Perhaps He did send me here. So you don't think I was being "deep" by pointing out the fact that no one here can prove what waits beyond the grave and you continue to play Russian roulette with your eternal soul?

 

O what fools these mortals be. Thinking they know better than Almighty God.

Wow. Cocky much? Anyway, I highly doubt any higher power sent you here. You came here of your own volition. And, as far as I've seen, you contribute very little to any of the topics you post in.

 

I would think if God would send someone to re-convert us, the person (s)he'd send would have straightforward answers to our questions. Rather than avoiding, telling pretty little tales, and generally being a dumbass.

[Fweethawt]

You don't know what lies beyond the grave.

And you do? No, you do not. You have beliefs about "what lies beyond the grave", but you certainly have no knowledge about "what lies beyond the grave".

 

Visit a cemetary. Anything "beyond the grave(s)", is dirt.

[-Demona-]

Eternal darkness is no laughing matter.

Oh, Jesus Fucking Christ. It's just one of my many nicknames I use on message boards. I just chose it because I'm a fan of vampires. Get over it.

 

This is not about being cocky. It's about honestly speaking the truth. [snip] You don't know what lies beyond the grave.

Niether do you, so get off your damn high horse already. Because, my dear Amy Marie, none of us will know until after we're already dead. Capisce?

 

You're pathetic.

[Fweethawt]

But to say Hell doesn't exist you can't prove that either.

It can be shown how the concept was created by men and how it evolved over time. What you have today within the concept of hell is simply the peak of what the Holy Men™ could come up with in order to latch on to your inner psyche.

 

It is no more real than the original concept.

 

It does indeed exist. But only in your mind -- as a belief, not a truth.

[freeday]

so what's a normal life anyway. who is to say believing or not believing in hell is normall.

Freeday, wouldn't you say that living in fear of something that is totally impossible and illogical NOT normal? Fear can be a great indoctorination tool for brainwashing, IMO. Wouldn't you say that letting go of fear and bringing in rational thought a more normal approach?

 

maybe improbable but not impossible, i strongly believe there is something more to life than what we see, hear and feel. i don't think that is irrational. and i don't look at christianity as something to be feared. i don't find that a good reason to dismiss the religion. i am a follower of Jesus and i don't live my life in fear, especially death. i find that to be very comforting and logical. death is something we will all face. this is a logical way to find a peace about it.

[Fweethawt]

i strongly believe there is something more to life than what we see, hear and feel. i don't think that is irrational.

[wideawake42]

Amy,

 

Why do I get the feeling that you're in the grip of Pascal's wager?

 

You say things like "you continue to play russian roulette with your soul" and "eternal darkness is no laughing matter".

 

But you know what? Think about this. If you go through your life believing in Christianity, believing that your soul can be transported into either paradise or hell when you die, and you're wrong, you've wasted your entire life on a belief structure that can potentially keep you from many experiences. People who like Pascal's wager say you've lost nothing, because you'll be dead and you won't know it, but I think that's ridiculous. You've lost your LIFE. Your life will thus be a LIE. And life is important, dear - part of what irks me now about religion is how much I couldn't wait to die and "be with Jesus" back in the day - so much that I missed a lot of what was going on in the HERE and NOW.

 

If you don't believe in Christianity, like us, and you turn out to be wrong - then when you die, God will be just in punishing you to "eternal darkness" because you will be "unholy". You might have led a full life of love, made choices for yourself, thought for yourself, and been accountable for your own morals, which, by the way, atheists CAN have - and if in the end, you're right about God, and he wants to punish you (or any of us) for that - well, you won't really be able to argue now, will you?

 

Just a thought.

[Vigile]

Perhaps He did send me here. So you don't think I was being "deep" by pointing out the fact that no one here can prove what waits beyond the grave and you continue to play Russian roulette with your eternal soul?

 

O what fools these mortals be. Thinking they know better than Almighty God.

 

Ok, members here are either agnostic about or they just outright reject the god notion due to an utter lack of evidence. You on the other hand believe with all your heart with not jot nor tittle of evidence that god is real and not only that, but that bible god is he/she/it.

 

You then accuse us of playing Russian roulette with our souls for rejecting your version of the truth all the while you are rejecting a myriad of other claims to truth. By your logic you to are playing Russian roulette with your soul.

 

Somewhere there is a greater fool in this summary I just outlined. Can you point to who that might be?

 

Here's my little trick that I taught myself in order to get past the big What If™.

 

What if serpents talk?

What if fruit is magical?

What if unicorns exist?

What if satyrs exist?

What if virgins do get pregnant without having sex?

What if people do walk on water?

What if people do come back from the dead?

What if Goliath really did get killed twice?

What if a dragon really does smack stars down with it's tail?

 

Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

The bible is written in such a way that all that I mentioned above is factual, even though it is not nor can be.

 

So, what was that 1% that you are talking about anyway?

 

It could happen and if you reject that it could outright you my friend are playing Russian roulette with your very soul. Now who would want to take that kind of chance?

 

Not avoiding nothin'! I knew I would get pounded for my answer. This is not about being cocky. It's about honestly speaking the truth. Eternal darkness is no laughing matter. If you think I'm a dumbass so be it. Is that straight forward enough for you? You don't know what lies beyond the grave.

 

Typical xtian with a persecution complex out forcing the hand of fate and the natural patience of others toward a predictable self-fulfilled prophecy. Amy in her prayer closet: "Oh lord, give me strength to endure the trials and suffering about to be heaped upon my head like hot coals. They are nothing compared to the suffering you endured for me..."

[mwc]

But to say Hell doesn't exist you can't prove that either.

Ah. Brilliant. Truly brilliant. I see you have been honing your debating skills.

 

Okay. I'll bite. But you'll need to help. What is it exactly am I to prove does not exist? Your "classical" hell? You know, the one derived from the Norse "Hel" (ironically, a place of cold) many centuries after the fact?

 

Or, the Gehenna that is used in Matthew 5:22, 5:29, 5:30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33, Mark 9:43, 9:45, 9:47, Luke 12:5, and James 3:6?

 

Or perhaps Hades from Matthew 11:23, 16:18, Luke 10:15, 16:23, Acts 2:27, 2:31, 1 Corinthians 15:55, Revelations 1:18, 6:8, 20:13, 20:14?

 

Or that lowest level of Hades, Tartarus, reserved for the worst of the worst mentioned only once in 2 Peter 2:4?

 

Looks like your version of hell isn't actually in the bible, Amy. I left Sheol out since it's in the OT and it really has no relation to any sort of "hell."

 

So, Gehenna exists as a valley then and even today. It also existed back then as a place of "future punishment." Some that the "gates" to the underworld were hidden there and that a place of punishment like Hades, but not Hades, was hidden under the earth there. Some things that get you sent there are unchastity, adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy and anger. They also believed that you could be let out of this place of torture after a time. Jews seemed to get a free pass for the most part it seems (their enemies like the Babylonians just sort of burn up and blow away). But this is all according to the Jews.

 

According to baby-god (in the verses I mention) things that will get you into Gehenna are calling someone a fool, there's then six of those verses about getting rid of body parts that offend (specifically the eye, hand and foot) instead of getting tossed in Gehenna and James warns us to watch what we say (but it doesn't seem to be a warning against being tossed into Gehenna though). So that's it. Calling someone a fool and random body part warnings seem to be jesus' hot button issues when it comes to deciding who gets put into the fires of Gehenna.

 

Hades. Well. That's an pretty much a Greek invention so I'm not sure what jesus would be tossing me in there for, considering Hades is the god and ruler supreme of Hades. Oh, that's right. When the area became Hellenized a lot of people got more than a little confused with Zeus/Apollo/Hades...or, what's that I see? Father/Son/Devil or Father/Jesus/Satan? Holy Crap Batman!

 

What's that you say? They didn't have any other words to describe hell? Sure they did. How about "I'll toss you into that place of everlasting torture that I created before the beginning of the world. I called it 'Glorpyworld!'" (but something really, really cool sounding). He's supposed to be god he can make up words. Remember Jacob from the OT? He wrestled with him and then cheated his way out. He then made up the word "Israel" and made it mean "Struggle with god" (and the renamed Jacob to Israel but god kept forgetting he renamed him and kept calling him Jacob anyway).

 

So what's the challenge again? Oh yeah. Prove "Hell" doesn't exist. Okay. Hel is Norse and very cold (it's also the name of the Giant that rules there if I'm not mistaken). Gehenna is "hell-like" but for maybe a limited time only and there's only certain things that get you sent there (too bad jesus never took the time to define his all his terms...seems the perfect thing to do don't you think?). Hades is Greek and therefore, like Hel, pagan. Since pagan things aren't real there's no need to worry about them at all and since Gehenna isn't Hell but something else entirely I've proven that Hell does not exist.

 

mwc

[♦ ficino ♦]

What if Goliath really did get killed twice?

 

Hey Fweethawt, are there really two conflicting accounts of Goliath's death? I never realized that.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Not avoiding nothin'! I knew I would get pounded for my answer. This is not about being cocky. It's about honestly speaking the truth.

 

Amy, once again you focus a lot on the language people use in their replies to you and little on the content of what you and they say. You've admitted that no one knows what lies beyond the grave. So when you assert christian doctrines about that, you are not really "honestly speaking the truth" .

 

Ricky18 pointed out that the bible is riddled with errors. We've been talking about them for months now. He also talked about how the character "God" in that book is immoral. We've been talking about that for months, too. Your speaking the truth about this stuff generally amounts to asserting your feelings, quoting Bible verses (when the truth of the Bible is the very thing in question), telling stories and poems, and interpreting your experiences.

 

I don't recall you ever answered Asuryan on The Flood. Maybe you did and I missed it.

[Kuroikaze]

 

Perhaps He did send me here. So you don't think I was being "deep" by pointing out the fact that no one here can prove what waits beyond the grave and you continue to play Russian roulette with your eternal soul?

 

O what fools these mortals be. Thinking they know better than Almighty God.

 

 

you are also playing russian roulette, you've just gussed that the bullet is in a different chamber of the gun

 

 

How is this not speaking the truth when I say no one knows what lies beyond the grave? No one knows. That's the truth. That's what Ricky has doubt about. I addressed it. Even though the Bible has plenty of warnings about Hell you don't believe the book so what else can I say? The real test will be death. You would agree with that, right?

 

 

Lots of books say LOTS of things about what happens after death, just because its in a book doesn't make it true. I have no reason to believe that any of the people who wrote the bible had any first hand knowledge of what happened after death. (if they had such knowledge, they woudn't be writing much of anything) So thier word about the after life is just as good as mine or yours.

 

You just admited that no one knows what lies beyond the grave, but then claim that a book written by men holds such answers...totally illogical

 

O what fools these mortals be. Thinking they know better than Almighty God.

 

 

I've never claimed to know better than god. If there is one I will concede his is a greater inteligence than mine, by defenition. I'm not claiming to know more than god, only claiming to know more than christians ABOUT god

[mwc]

Jesus did come back from the grave. But He said even if He were to rise from the dead people would still make up an excuse not to believe Him because they love darkness more then light. I personally dodn't believe Christ is a liar.

Well, I proved "hell" didn't exist and you didn't believe me. I also died and came back to life. I flew around the universe without any help from a spaceship of any sort. I've traveled to alternate dimensions. I've spoken to aliens on other planets in person. I've created life in other universes just by thinking about it. I've done many wonderful and amazing things. Of course you'll make up reasons not to believe me. I could demonstrate these abilities but it wouldn't change anything so I choose to not demonstrate them...ever...to anyone. I could come to your house and take you on a flight through the universe but you would just say I drugged you or whatever. You would reduce the most amazing journey of your lifetime to mere trickery. No. First hand experience wouldn't be enough for you Amy. Pearls to the swine indeed.

 

However, if you truly believe in your heart that I did these things, and more, then some day I may impart these abilities to you if you are truly worthy of them. I will give you the wisdom of the ages and allow you to live forever in bliss. All you need to do is believe you will receive these gifts from me and one day you just might get them. Oh, there's one minor catch if you will. You must be free of your natural body to receive these gifts so live a nice natural life and await further instructions upon death. We'll continue once everyone gets there.

 

mwc

[Kuroikaze]

 

Jesus did come back from the grave. But He said even if He were to rise from the dead people would still make up an excuse not to believe Him because they love darkness more then light. I personally dodn't believe Christ is a liar.

 

 

Wrong...the bible SAYS Jesus came back from the grave, but you have no actual proof. Plenty of other gods or goddeses claim to have died and came back from the grave as well. It was a common myth durring this period. You have no idea what Jesus said, or of his trustworthyness outside of the bible...which had internal contradictions galore.

 

I also did not actually call Christ a liar, so don't put words in my mouth.

 

Furthermore I've never really understood the logic behind this type of argument.

 

I say "I don't believe in this"

 

You say "Ha, the bible SAID you would say that so it must all be true"

 

So in other words, the fact that people disbelieve in something they find absurd is PROOF that it is actually true? This is logic?

 

The problem is that you think the bible is fortelling the future when it says there will be doubters, and thus must be mystical in nature. You don't have to be a genius, or inspired by god to know that some people will disagree with ANY belief system...much less one that is absurd. Its not soothsaying, its just common sense.

 

Also, I'm not "just makinng up and excuse not to believe" IT really doesn't make any sense to me to do so. I dont need an excuse to disbelieve in Islam, so why would I need one to disbelieve in christianity.

[Piprus]

Ricky18,

 

It seems Amy Marie has taken center stage here, in departure from your original post.

 

Your points are well taken. Christianity is a religion of guilt, fear, and shame, that constantly tries to hammer into us what consummately evil beings we are, unworthy of anything but the god's contempt. Rubbish.

 

Yes, if you've recently abandoned that silly belief system, you can expect to see a residue of fear. It was the basis for my becoming a christian as a pre-teen, and I dealt with that also. But that was years ago. Many years. It will pass, as you gain the strength that comes with recognizing and reinforcing within you the feeling that christianity is patently absurd. After all, what god worth the name, even if he existed, would send you to eternal punishment for nothing worse than skepticism?

 

Where is there any evidence whatsoever, for any life after death? There is none.

[Poonis]

How does things get better. Are some of u guys still struggling like me? Or u living a happy life.

 

ricky18,

 

It will pass, albeit slowly, depending on your depth within the grasp of christianity. For me, it was Hell and the Holy Spirit that were last to go. But the more I say "show me Hell" or "show me the Holy Spirit", the more they both retreat, further from my investigation. At this point, I can only conclude that neither were ever extant in the first place, but rather the culmination of the tricks I once allowed my mind once played on myself.

 

If any or all of Christianity is indeed true, it will stand up to any onslaught of questioning and investigation by a mere human.

[Ouroboros]

Perhaps He did send me here. So you don't think I was being "deep" by pointing out the fact that no one here can prove what waits beyond the grave and you continue to play Russian roulette with your eternal soul?

No, no, you got it all backwards. You believe in the wrong religion, and you're going to the Muslim Hell. And you keep on playing Russian Roulette with your life too.

 

O what fools these mortals be. Thinking they know better than Almighty God.

At least my kids KNOW that I exist. And that by using physical means as TALKING in REAL words in this REAL world.

 

Btw, you claim to know God, and know how and what he thinks... shame on you... so full of pride... thinking that you actually know the Almighty God and what he thinks...

 

 

 

But to say Hell doesn't exist you can't prove that either.

Eh, sure, yeah, . And you can't prove that the "Wonderful world of infinite yummy carrots and overflowing fountains of Mountain Dew" exist or not either.

 

And you can't prove that Muslim Hell does exist or not either.

 

Or Nirvana.

 

Or Asgard.

 

Or ...

 

 

Actually Hell does exist, and I can prove it... some Gnostic religions believe this world is Hell. So there you have it. You were a sinner in your previous life, and now you got it good. You're here with us, for a time of pain and suffering.

 

What if Goliath really did get killed twice?

In all stories (at least movies nowdays) the bad guys are hard to kill. They just keep on coming back, regardless how many times you stab them or hit them. I guess that's what happened. He just got shot 50 times, and stood up and had to be killed again.

 

 

Jesus did come back from the grave. But He said even if He were to rise from the dead people would still make up an excuse not to believe Him because they love darkness more then light. I personally dodn't believe Christ is a liar.

Lazarus came back too. He was dead for 3 days, and risen by God, but never mentioned or talked about his "experience" in the afterlife. How come? Wouldn't he be super-excited to be back and start a new ministry telling everyone about his death experience in Heaver (or Hell)? Write books about it. Nowadays we have some preachers that have a 5 minute experience I write 20 books about it, and talk endlessly on TV, and you can't get them to shut up. So what kind of effect would 3 days dead have on a person?