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Islam; A Pathway To Peace Or Destruction?


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Dear Fellows;

 

I am very happy to see that you people have welcomed me positively. This is actually not the common response when a Muslim appears on any forum related to religions other then Islam.

I have received many questions from many posters and because of this; this post is going to be quite a longer one. I would address everyone individually so if you don’t have time to read the entire post, you can just scroll down to the section, meant for you only.

 

Dear Golden Meadows;

 

If it [Quran] was originally the word of the true-god why did he allow it to become corrupt? Surely the true-God would never have allowed this to happen?

 

Well, according to Islamic teachings and Quran, the divine books such as psalms, bible and torah were meant for the people of specific geography, area, culture and tradition. Torah was meant for the people of Israel only. Psalms was meant for the latter generations of the Israel. Injeel i.e. the Bible was meant for the people of that time i.e. the Christ and his peers but Quran is meant for the people of every era that is for eternity thus, the preservation of those temporary books was not as much required as much the preservation of the Final testament i.e. Quran was required therefore, in no other holy books we find any verse which says that God shall protect that book but in Quran we find a specific verse clearly mentioning that God has revealed this book and its protection is the responsibility of God himself. Further, it is also clearly mentioned that those books were not altered by common man until the new book arrives. After the arrival of the new book, the old book was contaminated by the religious leaders according to their own judgments and socio-political interests and to make it adjustable so the people might not attract to the new message. However, this was not the case with Quran and can not be.

 

{We have lost the real Bible, save one manuscript hidden somewhere unknown to us yet.}

Could you please explain what you mean by this?

 

Well, i do not know what you people call it but there was a holy-coffin before the destruction of holy temple in Jerusalem. In that Holy-Coffin there were the orignal manuscripts of the all revealed books, the Torah, the old testament and the new testament along the holy-articles of prophets such as the stick of Moses and the ring of Solomon and many more. This Holy-Coffin was disappeared at the time of fall of Jerusalem and yet, it is unknown but it is believed that it is still hidden somewhere either in Mid east or in Africa.

 

How do you determine what book is the word of God or what parts of a book are the word of God?

 

Well, the word of God should not contradict the laws of nature and in easy terms, the laws of science. Any book or verse which speaks mythology and speaks against the established facts of science can not be regarded as the word of God. God is the ultimate and omniscient reality of this universe; he is obliged to narrate the truth, not the falsehood or misconceptions in his messages.

 

Are you exclusively a religion of the book or do you have a line of tradition that complements the Quran?

 

Actually, sorry to say but I could not really understand your question can u please rephrase it for me? It would be helpful for you to know that English is not my mother tongue and sometimes, I feel at waters with some phrases. What i have understood is this that might be you are asking that Quran is the word of God or , like bible, compiled the way the gospels in the bible. Well, Quran is purely the word of God himself. You will not find the phrases such as 'According to Muhammad" or According to Mark/Luke or According to holy spirit. The whole Quran is the revelation of God and still preserved in the same words as used by the God.

 

Why does man break natural or divine laws? Has he been made imperfect and if so why?

 

Well it is a very vague question and requires a very comprehensive reply. I would try to be brief here and would reply in detail some other time. In a nutshell, man is not made imperfect, indeed the Quran says that human is the supreme being among the created beings and the best creation of the Lord but at the same time, the human has fallen himself into deep ignorance by not recognizing the true message of God and thus by becoming the rival of his own creator. Man breaks the laws for his social, political, cultural and personal individual or collective interests sometimes in the name of religion, sometimes in the name of nationalism and sometimes in the name of racism. All due to not understanding the true-messages of divine.

 

Do you agree that if God was not the God of justice then he could not be the God of Love? One of my big objections to xtianity is that the God they describe is not just because he sentences people to an eternal punishment for a finite/temporal crime? What does Islam teach about justice/judgment and punishment?

 

Well, God possesses two distinct attributes, the mercifulness and the justice. He at the same time can be seen as the fountain of Justice as well as the fountain of mercy and love. The issues are dependent upon the cases and their context. As i told you about the love of God, that God is not all-loving as sometimes, he has to sentence his loving creatures because of their harmful disobedience, similar to a Mother when she, irrespective of her motherly love and affection, chastises her progeny for any harmful disobedience. Remember, according to Quran, God does not necessarily punish the human beings for those actions which are not harmful for other human beings, but the punishment is mandatory for those human beings who make severe perplexions and harm other human beings or society unnecessarily or unjustly. In Islam, The divine punishment are always proportional to the degree of crime-committed and even then, God reserves his prerogative of mercy and compassion on those who deserve.

 

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Dear Skeptic of Bible;

 

How does a book written in the 7th centaury lend credibility to supposed events that happened 8 centauries ago?

 

Well, because of the fact that the author of the book, i.e. the God himself was also present 8 centuries ago and himself witnessed all the circumstances and then narrated them in his forthcoming message.

 

And just like the Christian god he will send the unbeliever to burning hell, just because he doesn't accept it. It's either turn or burn.

 

I think in the above mentioned answers, I have already made a reply to this as well.

 

If the Allah is the Yahweh of Old testament, then pretty much the Old Testament shows that he lacks all of the above. Where was this mercy, love, benevolence and compassion when he ordered the killing of children of enemies of the Israelites?

 

Well, he never gave any orders like this. This verse and other complementary verses are a contamination. It is simply against the logic that why would God order for the killing of innocent children? Nowhere in the Quran we find this fact. In fact it was the Pharaoh of Egypt who ordered the killing of the babies of Israelites in order to prevent Moses to be born. As it was prophesized to him that such a child of Israelites would shake his kingdom and would be a reason of his death.

 

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Dear Jubilant;

 

Well as for your question, i already have answered in the above mentioned replies. I will just repeat one thing that according to Islam, the chastisement for a crime is always proportional to the degree it is committed and even then, God says in Quran that he will forgive and shall shower his mercy on many those who either deserve it or not save, a crime which has collectively harmed the mankind.

 

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Dear Taylork45;

 

If this is so, why are Jewish and Christian god named Yahweh/Jehovah and the Muslim god has a entirely different name Allah.

 

Well, why do we call water as H20 in scientific language, M`aa in Arabic, J`ull in Hindi and P`aani in Urdu? Simply because every one recognizes the same thing in their own language. That is why when God revealed his name to People of Israel, he called himself Jehovah which means: "I am who i am" similarly when he revealed his name to Arabs he called himself Allah which means :'the one who is the true God" and similarly when he revealed his name to Hindus, he called himself "Ishvara" which means; "the one who is the ultimate reality". Different wordings but similar concept. And he says in Quran, all good names belong to him so whatever name you please, you can call him by that good name in any language.

 

Another thing. Could you explain "Jinns" or "Genies" to me? You don't actually believe in this stuff do you?

 

Well, yes we do believe on Genies and the reason is the verses and a complete chapter regarding their existence in the Holy Quran. For more information please visit this article of mine:

http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopic-20368-day...rderasc-20.html

 

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Dear Pandora;

 

Could you expound on why you take your particular interpretation of those passages?

 

I take them while making Quran as the base.

 

I was taught there are even jurists and scholars of Islam (obviously from the more liberal side) who debate that the Quran in its present form is not the Quran of the earliest years of Islam. If I have time, I'll go back to my notes and try to find this for you... but could you comment on your general knowledge of this issue?

 

Well, you and skeptic of bible have raised somewhat similar question for which I agree that there was a research work done by some non-muslims and some sects of Muslims in order to prove that present Quran is not the real Quran. Well, it is only an allegation and has not been proven yet that whether its theory or a fact? But as we read the Quran and compare it with the laws of nature and scientific facts, we usually find it quite accurate. As for the research work and originality of Quran, the following links would be of quite help for both of you;

 

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/preservation.htm

 

http://www.answering-christianity.com/que3.htm

 

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/compilationbrief.html

 

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Dear Chefranden;

 

you will have some difficulty convincing me that your God is more real or better than Christian God.

 

Well, to be honest, the xian God and Islamic God are not two Gods but the same one God. Yes, i accept that xians made too many alterations in the bible that the real concept of true xian god converted into an alien deity, but hopefully in the light of final testament, i.e. Quran one can easily find the truth and eliminate the falsehood.

 

Islam means peace, does it not?

 

Yes, Islam does mean peace and mercy. It actually means the peace which is earned only in the result of submitting one's self and will in front of one-true God and his teachings.

 

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Dear Hansolo;

 

How come does God have to be described as this cruel egomaniac that have sinful emotions like anger, frustration and jealousy?

 

Well, you most probably are having a very wrong concept of God. First thing you should know that the creator and his creations must share something in common as a sign for their common relationship. As it is also said that God has created man on his own image, so to say that God has the emotions similar to human is wrong, actually human has the emotions somewhat similar to God.

As regards the emotions such as jealousy, torture, hatred and frustration, these are the different kinds of humanistic evolved emotions, in God there is only one emotion that is Anger. Quran tells that the mercy of God encompasses his wrath and anger. I will try to tell you a very different concept of God. Many people believe on very wrong things and beliefs regarding the attributes of God which leads them to many misconceptions.

 

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Dear the sage naboro;

 

I read the Quran when I wanted proof that Islam is a religion of peace. I found proof that it is a religion of war and of oppressing women to a ridiculous degree. I'm not some Rush Limbaugh Republican windbag, but after having read the holy book of Islam I cannot see it as a beneficial force in society.

 

The biggest problem with us is the right translation of Quran. Many Quranic translations do not meet the specific standard and most of them are too vague to understand clearly. Besides, when someone reads a message, if he reads it partially, the messenger is not to be blame but the one who reads it. When most people read Quran, they usually read only the specific verses and some parts of it without the reference to the context. for any message to understand truly, complete reference to its context is imperative, and especially when this is the case with a divine message. This is the book revealed by God, so do not try to read it in similar manner as other human books, we need a special way to read it and what is this way, ? Reading it with reference to the context. If you would point out some verses for me then i would be in a better position to describe you more with examples.

 

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Regards to everyone

A Well Wisher

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Dear Hansolo;

 

How come does God have to be described as this cruel egomaniac that have sinful emotions like anger, frustration and jealousy?

 

Well, you most probably are having a very wrong concept of God. First thing you should know that the creator and his creations must share something in common as a sign for their common relationship. As it is also said that God has created man on his own image, so to say that God has the emotions similar to human is wrong, actually human has the emotions somewhat similar to God.

As regards the emotions such as jealousy, torture, hatred and frustration, these are the different kinds of humanistic evolved emotions, in God there is only one emotion that is Anger. Quran tells that the mercy of God encompasses his wrath and anger. I will try to tell you a very different concept of God. Many people believe on very wrong things and beliefs regarding the attributes of God which leads them to many misconceptions.

May I ask, what happens to a person that does not believe in Islam or Allah?

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Dear Hansolo;

 

May I ask, what happens to a person that does not believe in Islam or Allah?

 

Well, nothing happens to such a person be he christian, jew or hindu. Islam does not ask you to convert into a Muslim. It only asks you to truly follow whatever you follow and does not follow the wrong things. The following verse of Holy Quran can make it more clear to you.

 

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve .

 

Well, the only requirements are to believe on one-true God, have faith on the day of judgement and the performance of good deeds. If you observe this and remains a xian, jew or whatever, you surely are a successful person, according to Quran.

 

By the way, is there any way that i could edit my posts on this forum?

 

Regards

A well wisher

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Dear Hansolo;

 

May I ask, what happens to a person that does not believe in Islam or Allah?

 

Well, nothing happens to such a person be he christian, jew or hindu. Islam does not ask you to convert into a Muslim. It only asks you to truly follow whatever you follow and does not follow the wrong things. The following verse of Holy Quran can make it more clear to you.

 

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve .

 

Well, the only requirements are to believe on one-true God, have faith on the day of judgement and the performance of good deeds. If you observe this and remains a xian, jew or whatever, you surely are a successful person, according to Quran.

 

By the way, is there any way that i could edit my posts on this forum?

 

Regards

A well wisher

So basically, you don't have to be a Muslim, you just have to believe and do what a Muslim should? :Hmm: Or does it mean just any ol' God will do, as long as you believe?

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Omniscient: If it [Quran] was originally the word of the true-god why did he allow it to become corrupt? Surely the true-God would never have allowed this to happen?

GM: Actually I was meaning in context the bible not the Quaran, as you have added. You seemed to accept the bible texts as being Gods work originally. Why then did he allow his word to become distorted. Surely he would have protected it?

 

Well, according to Islamic teachings and Quran, the divine books such as psalms, bible and torah were meant for the people of specific geography, area, culture and tradition. Torah was meant for the people of Israel only.

GM: o.k in a certain sense this is reflected in christian theology, however the Torah contains material which is universal in its scope and time therefore Christians do not ignore it since God never said in the Torah that these books were only temporary. If you accept the hebrew texts were indeed given by God why is there no mention in them that they are only to last for a certain period of time?

 

Psalms was meant for the latter generations of the Israel. Injeel i.e. the Bible was meant for the people of that time i.e. the Christ and his peers but Quran is meant for the people of every era that is for eternity thus, the preservation of those temporary books was not as much required as much the preservation of the Final testament

GM: o.k but can you see the difficulty for Jews and Christians who believe the Old Testement is really the word of God? i.e they cannot ignore it because that would be going against the word of God.

 

i.e. Quran was required therefore, in no other holy books we find any verse which says that God shall protect that book but in Quran we find a specific verse clearly mentioning that God has revealed this book and its protection is the responsibility of God himself.

GM: Can you give me a quotation from the Quaran regarding this promise?

 

 

Further, it is also clearly mentioned that those books were not altered by common man until the new book arrives. After the arrival of the new book, the old book was contaminated by the religious leaders according to their own judgments and socio-political interests and to make it adjustable so the people might not attract to the new message. However, this was not the case with Quran and can not be.

GM: In the case of the Old Testement the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the texts have not been corrupted. They were discovered by a little boy called Muhammed, maybe christians, muslims and Jews have to look again to find out the significance of these findings.

 

 

 

{We have lost the real Bible, save one manuscript hidden somewhere unknown to us yet.}

Could you please explain what you mean by this?

 

Well, i do not know what you people call it but there was a holy-coffin before the destruction of holy temple in Jerusalem.

GM: I think you refer to what Christians and Jews call the "Ark of the Covenant" ?

 

In that Holy-Coffin there were the orignal manuscripts of the all revealed books, the Torah, the old testament and the new testament along the holy-articles of prophets such as the stick of Moses and the ring of Solomon and many more. This Holy-Coffin was disappeared at the time of fall of Jerusalem and yet, it is unknown but it is believed that it is still hidden somewhere either in Mid east or in Africa.

GM: Maybe a Christian would suggest it was taken up to heaven. This is only my interpreation based on the bible Book of the Revelation chapters 11 and 12.

 

How do you determine what book is the word of God or what parts of a book are the word of God?

 

Well, the word of God should not contradict the laws of nature and in easy terms, the laws of science. Any book or verse which speaks mythology and speaks against the established facts of science can not be regarded as the word of God.

GM: Does myth, allegory, poetical language not form part of Islams tradition?

 

 

God is the ultimate and omniscient reality of this universe; he is obliged to narrate the truth, not the falsehood or misconceptions in his messages.

GM: o.k, but if it could be shown that the Quran contain misconceptions this means you would no longer accept it?

 

Are you exclusively a religion of the book or do you have a line of tradition that complements the Quran?

 

Actually, sorry to say but I could not really understand your question can u please rephrase it for me?

GM: Do you have other books that contain information not given in the Quaran and Muslims consider to be of high authority and binding to them?

 

 

It would be helpful for you to know that English is not my mother tongue and sometimes,

GM: You are doing very well indeed :)

 

What i have understood is this that might be you are asking that Quran is the word of God or , like bible, compiled the way the gospels in the bible. Well, Quran is purely the word of God himself. You will not find the phrases such as 'According to Muhammad" or According to Mark/Luke or According to holy spirit. The whole Quran is the revelation of God and still preserved in the same words as used by the God.

GM: Does this mean that the Quran was dictated to Muhammad by God or his angel? Somebody told me that Muhammed could not read or write , is this true?

 

Why does man break natural or divine laws? Has he been made imperfect and if so why?

 

Well it is a very vague question and requires a very comprehensive reply. I would try to be brief here and would reply in detail some other time.

ok

 

In a nutshell, man is not made imperfect, indeed the Quran says that human is the supreme being among the created beings and the best creation of the Lord but at the same time, the human has fallen himself into deep ignorance by not recognizing the true message of God and thus by becoming the rival of his own creator. Man breaks the laws for his social, political, cultural and personal individual or collective interests sometimes in the name of religion, sometimes in the name of nationalism and sometimes in the name of racism. All due to not understanding the true-messages of divine.

GM: But if God made man perfect, i.e his delight was always to do good, then why did he do evil. Can you see the contradiction?

 

Do you agree that if God was not the God of justice then he could not be the God of Love? One of my big objections to xtianity is that the God they describe is not just because he sentences people to an eternal punishment for a finite/temporal crime? What does Islam teach about justice/judgment and punishment?

 

Well, God possesses two distinct attributes, the mercifulness and the justice. He at the same time can be seen as the fountain of Justice as well as the fountain of mercy and love.

o.k

 

The issues are dependent upon the cases and their context. As i told you about the love of God, that God is not all-loving as sometimes, he has to sentence his loving creatures because of their harmful disobedience,

GM: but do you agree the "punishment" must be proportional to the crime?

 

 

similar to a Mother when she, irrespective of her motherly love and affection, chastises her progeny for any harmful disobedience.

GM: No mother would punish her child for all eternity, agreed?

 

 

Remember, according to Quran, God does not necessarily punish the human beings for those actions which are not harmful for other human beings, but the punishment is mandatory for those human beings who make severe perplexions and harm other human beings or society unnecessarily or unjustly.

o.k

 

In Islam, The divine punishment are always proportional to the degree of crime-committed and even then, God reserves his prerogative of mercy and compassion on those who deserve.

GM: This sounds very good compared to christinaity. This means there is no hell of eternal punishment in Islam?

 

 

Thanks for your thoughtful and patient responses.

 

p.s I think you have to be a subscriber in order to have the edit function :(

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Well, I'll have to agree with bdp that all religion is bullshit. I will go slightly out of my way to say that it is interesting to see another religion addressed on this board. I am admittedly quite ignorant of Islam so I'll try and read along out of interest.

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Well, the only requirements are to believe on one-true God, have faith on the day of judgement and the performance of good deeds. If you observe this and remains a xian, jew or whatever, you surely are a successful person, according to Quran.

 

 

Regards

A well wisher

 

So what happens to us atheists? What about Budhists? Et al?

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Well, the only requirements are to believe on one-true God, have faith on the day of judgement and the performance of good deeds. If you observe this and remains a xian, jew or whatever, you surely are a successful person, according to Quran.

If you don't believe in any God what-so-ever, what happens to you?

 

Let's say an Atheist, or a Buddhist, or if you are any kind of polytheist like Hinduism, are you going to Hell?

 

By the way, is there any way that i could edit my posts on this forum?

Unfortunately you have to be a subscriber or a senior member to get that function.

 

--edit--

 

Oh, I saw that Vigile was on the same line. :)

 

Let me add a couple more categories: what happens to Nontheists or Agnostics or Ignostics?

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Another thing. Could you explain "Jinns" or "Genies" to me? You don't actually believe in this stuff do you?

 

Well, yes we do believe on Genies and the reason is the verses and a complete chapter regarding their existence in the Holy Quran. For more information please visit this article of mine:

http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopic-20368-day...rderasc-20.html

 

Quote from wikipedia on Genies or Jinn

Muslims believe that jinn are real beings. The jinn are said to be creatures with free will, made of smokeless fire by God (the literal translation being "subtle fire", i.e. a fire which does not give itself away through smoke), much in the same way humans were made of a metaphorical clay. In the Qur'an, jinn are frequently mentioned and Sura 72 of the Qur'an named Al-Jinn is entirely about them. Another Sura (Al- Naas) mentions the Jinn in the last verse. In fact, the Prophet Muhammad was said to have been sent as a prophet to both "humanity and the jinn."

 

The jinn have communities much like human societies: they eat, marry, die, etc. They are invisible to humans, but they can see humans. Sometimes they accidentally or deliberately come into view or into contact with humans.

 

Jinn are beings much like humans, possessing the ability to be good and bad. They have the power to transform into other animals and humans, and they are known to prefer the form of a snake. It is also known that they eat bones and their animals eat droppings, that is why it is forbidden to perform Istinja (washing) with those items.

 

Jinns also have the power to possess humans, have much greater strength than them, and live much longer lives. In fact, according to some hadith, the great-grandson of Iblis, or the Devil (who was born before mankind), converted to Islam during the time of Muhammad, so he must have been thousands of years old.

 

According to the majority of Islamic scholars, clear evidence exists in the Qur'an that the Devil was not an angel (as thought by Christians), but a jinn, citing the Quranic verse "And when We said to the angels:'Prostrate yourselves unto Adam.' So they prostrated themselves except Iblis (The Devil). He was one of the jinn..." Surat Al-Kahf, 18:50. According to Islam, angels are different physical beings, and unlike the fiery nature of jinn, they are beings of goodness and cannot choose to disobey God, nor do they possess the ability to do evil. Evil Ifrit (pronounced AYE-FRIT) in the The Book of One Thousand and One Nights are called "the seed of Iblis".

 

In Islam-associated mythology, the jinn were said to be controllable by magically binding them to objects, as Suleiman (Solomon) most famously did; the Spirit of the Lamp in the story of Aladdin was such a jinni, bound to an oil lamp. Ways of summoning jinn were told in The Thousand and One Nights: by writing the name of God in Hebraic characters on a knife (whether the Hebrew name for God, Yaweh, or the Arabic Allah is used is not specified), and drawing a diagram (possibly a pentagram) and strange symbols and incantations around it.

 

:twitch: This is interesting and funny at the same time. :lmao: Anyway according to the last paragraph in my quote jinns can be bound magically. Do muslims practice magic? Are there any lamps with Genies in it today that will grant my wishes? Have you ever seen a genie or have any evidence o reason to believe in there existence besides the Quran?

 

-EDIT_

Oh and I read the site you posted. They started talking about Jinns until some issue about a prophet consummating marriage with a nine year old girl popped up. What's that all about?

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Islam; A Pathway To Peace Or Destruction?

 

I admit that it is difficult to be completly informed about a subject, but I don't see any evidence in the general news that Islam is a pathway to peace. It seems to me that Muslims are as willing if not more willing than Christians to wage war and terror in the name of God. Let's say I'm not overly impressed by your claim to peace. It would be nice to have a God that could actually provide what it claims for once. I don't see any God that can do that or will do it.

 

If you have the same God as the Christians, I can understand why Muslims act so unpeacably, for Christians are much the same way.

 

Perhaps you could supply us with the correct atributes of God, since the Jews and Christians have it wrong.

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Got to agree with chef - and cite history as well. This is yet another religion which spread itself by the sword in its early days, and history is clear on this. How does this reconcile with a message of peace?

 

With all due respect, "Omniscient" one, no one here is going to buy it. You might as well just give up and log off. No one here believes that religion of yours is remotely "peaceful" in any way nor will be convinced to. No one here is ignorant enough to the general testimony of history or the general nature of Abrahamic religion to be hoodwinked by Islamic apologetics.

 

I am sure you mean well, so I do not respond in anger - yet. But do yourself a favor - and avoid painting yourself into a corner. You offer nothing different from what a Xian would - your god will condemn us for not believing in it, and that's the ultimate thrust of all Abrahamic religions, turn or burn. Your position that your god will not condemn an honestly faithful Xian or Jew is irrelevant, as there are no such people here.

 

If your god is so "peaceful" and "merciful" as to not remove evil yet punish humans for falling prey to it, then I reject your god. I also echo chef's request that you provide the "correct" view of your god, since the Xians and Jews whose religions came before yours evidently have it all wrong :Wendywhatever:

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Dear Scitsofreaky;

 

So basically, you don't have to be a Muslim, you just have to believe and do what a Muslim should? Or does it mean just any ol' God will do, as long as you believe?

 

Yes, one is not required to be a Muslim if the faith-conversion can be difficult or harmful for a person in terms of society, family, friends or whatever. One can only adhere to the true-teachings of his own religion, in the light of Islamic Beliefs and teachings. i.e. to seperate the falsehood from the truth while making Holy Quran as the medium.

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Dear Golden Meadows;

 

You seemed to accept the bible texts as being Gods work originally. Why then did he allow his word to become distorted. Surely he would have protected it?

 

Well, as i stated before, God did not take the responsibility of protecting those scriptures and said that those people, xians ,hebrews / jews, are responsible for the protection of the word of God and it is a test from him to check their hypocricy. But, the preservation of Quran was very important as it could not be left upon the responsibility of common people who actually failed the previous tests as well therefore; God himself took the responsibility so the message is eternal as well as the one who is protecting it. you may find the following evidences helpful;

 

We must first of all know that the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption! "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely ?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

 

The Revised Standard Version makes it clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it (i.e., the bible) into a LIE . (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

 

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

 

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death. The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

 

however the Torah contains material which is universal in its scope and time therefore Christians do not ignore it since God never said in the Torah that these books were only temporary. If you accept the hebrew texts were indeed given by God why is there no mention in them that they are only to last for a certain period of time?

 

I have somewhat replied to this question already in my aforesaid reply. For more detailed analysis of corruption of Torah, i would recommend you the following link.

http://www.islamworld.net/torah.html

 

but can you see the difficulty for Jews and Christians who believe the Old Testement is really the word of God? i.e they cannot ignore it because that would be going against the word of God.

 

Who is asking them to ignore it? but before following such a sceptical book, one should seperate the falsehood from the truth. Bible itself says that it is corrupted so how one can follow completely such a book which itself denies its authencity? Thus, under the light of Final Testament, i.e. Quran.. one can know what is wrong and what is right as God has provided a great deal of information regarding the jews & christians religions. Consider the following Quranic verses;

 

[6.146] And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones: this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.

 

[5.44] Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to God) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

 

[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

 

The Message is very clear, is not it?

 

Can you give me a quotation from the Quaran regarding this promise?

 

Why not. The God made this promise in the following divine-verses;

 

[21.50] And this [Quran] is a blessed Reminder which We have revealed; will you then deny it?

[15:09] We (Allah) have, without a doubt, sent down the Reminder (The Quran); and We (Allah) will assuredly Guard it [from corruption] .

 

In the case of the Old Testement the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the texts have not been corrupted. They were discovered by a little boy called Muhammed, maybe christians, muslims and Jews have to look again to find out the significance of these findings.

 

I have already replied you that some of the parts of the text are not yet corrupted but most of the parts have been corrupted. The prediction of the prophet Moses in Deuteronomy 31:25-29 is enough to support this calim.

 

Maybe a Christian would suggest it was taken up to heaven. This is only my interpreation based on the bible Book of the Revelation chapters 11 and 12.

 

Who knows, God knows better.

 

Does myth, allegory, poetical language not form part of Islams tradition?

 

Well, Myth is surely not a part of Islamic tradition and Quran. The holy book does use a very high elloquence and poetical allegory while narrating historical facts and the future prophesies but it can not be counted as a style over substance fallacy. It indeed reflects the way, God communicates with his created beings and we know very well that poetic language has a more psychological impact rather then common language thats why listening songs can change our mood quickly.

 

o.k, but if it could be shown that the Quran contain misconceptions this means you would no longer accept it?

 

Certainly, if the proof would be strong, logical, justful and free from fallacies, it would make Quran unacceptable in the light of Quranic verse itself which says;

 

[4:82] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.

 

But dear fellow, if you would search on net, you may find amny people caliming to have found many contradictions but actually, those are not contradictions but misunderstood verses out of context, and you may find many good rebutals and authentic answers to them. If you yourself find any contradiction, you can ask me for the justification but if it would be proven a real contradiction in the lgiht of established facts of science and logic, i shall withdraw my calim of Quran being a divine book and if you think, its the biggest risk for a believer.

 

Do you have other books that contain information not given in the Quaran and Muslims consider to be of high authority and binding to them?

 

Well, there are not many books but the sayings of Prophet which are known as Sunnah or Hadith. However, Muslims ironically believe that most of the sayings of prophet are contaminated ,throughout the ages, and only that saying could be stood authentic which does not even remotely contradict the Quran. So actually, in practice, Laws of Islam are primarily derived from Quran as the primary source, alone.

 

Does this mean that the Quran was dictated to Muhammad by God or his angel? Somebody told me that Muhammed could not read or write , is this true?

 

Exactly. Quran was dictated to prophet via the Holy Spirit as God's Messenger. And yes, prophet was a real illiterate person who could neither write nor read. This is also testified in the following verse of Quran;

 

[29.48] And you (Muhammad) did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your hand, for then could those who say untrue things have doubted.

 

But if God made man perfect, i.e his delight was always to do good, then why did he do evil. Can you see the contradiction?

 

Well, according to Quran, at the meantime when the creation of man was completed, the human being was awarded with the attribute and authority of "Free Will" within the laws of nature. All good or evil happens because of the excercise of this free will by a human being. If he uses it rightly, the laws make good consequences, if he uses it wrongly, the laws make evil/bad consequences. Thus, man his free in his actions but not in the consequences. He shall reap what he shall sow, now its upto him what he chosses to sow.

 

but do you agree the "punishment" must be proportional to the crime?

 

Certainly, this is exactly what i wrote in my last reply. The Quran has this to say about it;

 

[42:17] The Quran, being the Word of God, is the Absolute Criterion of Justice, equity, impartiality, fairness, balance, and the law.

 

[17.15] Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray: nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another , nor do We chastise until We raise an apostle.

 

 

No mother would punish her child for all eternity, agreed? This means there is no hell of eternal punishment in Islam?

 

Surely, the concept of eternal punishment is not present in the whole Quran however, the punishment would be for a long time but not for eternity. The following two verses make it very clear.

 

[64.9] On the day that He will gather you for the day of gathering, that is the day of loss and gain; and whoever believes in Allah and does good, He will remove from him his evil and cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide therein forever ; that is the great achievement.

 

[72.23] (It is) only a delivering (of communications) from Allah and His messages; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle surely he shall have the fire of hell to abide therein for a long time .

 

Dear fellow, i would like to make a humble request that kindly next time make not more then 3 questions at a time in your post, if possible. It takes a great deal of time to make repliesas i make every reply after proper research and study so i can not misguide you unintentionally & as there are many other fellows also and i myself have some personal job & academic commitments. I would appreciate your cooperation in this regard. Rest assured, i m here Inshaallah, as long as all of your questions shall not be answered adequately.

 

-----------------------------------

 

Dear Vigile del fuoco 1 & Hansolo;

 

So what happens to us atheists? What about Budhists? Et al?

 

Well, it depends upon that what is your belief about God. If you clearly denies his existence, his messages and all other laws constituted by him then you wage a war against him and why i use such critical term? Because the accpetance of God's law is the basis of all morality and social order. If one denies the orders of God, he losts the code of conduct and thus starts making laws according to his own will (legalising gambling or homosexuality) which may prove either beneficial or detrimential for the society. However, in most cases, the latter is proven to be the outcome. So, even if u dont find a convincing evidence for the existence of God, one should first take into account that either recognising his existence is a matter of personal faith only or a matter of collective wellbeing? It can be challenged that majority will not exibit a moral and ethical attitude in the society if the recognition of God is nullified. Yes, a minority of atheists can exibit a same attitude as of a believer, most probably because of a goof and proper fostering but even then chances of diversion are high as the person gets adult.

 

------------------------------------

 

Dear Taylork45;

 

Do muslims practice magic? Are there any lamps with Genies in it today that will grant my wishes?

 

Well, some so-called muslims do practice magic but it is actually strictly forbidden under Quranic Laws. Besides, one may find many indian and bangali magicians who actually practice magic and it is my belief that magic is a very adavanced form of vibration of energies with the help of one's mind for which we can see the hypnotism and telepathy as a little example. What we think magic is actually not a magic. Magic is a very advanced form of Metta Physics.

 

Have you ever seen a genie or have any evidence o reason to believe in there existence besides the Quran?

 

Well, there is a lot of evidence of many people of any religion experiencing ghosts, phantoms, jinns or alike. Actually there are no phantoms or ghosts but Jinns and human Auras. Science has started to detect the human Aura and sooner or latter it shall detect the Jinns also. If you have read my article, i have written in great detail about the scientific hypothesis regarding their existence.

 

They started talking about Jinns until some issue about a prophet consummating marriage with a nine year old girl popped up. What's that all about?

 

For this, i would recommend you to visit this detailed reply in a forum. Hopefully it will sufficiently answer all of your querries in this regard.

http://www.gawaher.com/index.php?showtopic...st&p=291343

 

-------------------------------------------

 

Dear Chefranden;

 

It seems to me that Muslims are as willing if not more willing than Christians to wage war and terror in the name of God. Let's say I'm not overly impressed by your claim to peace.

 

Well, Islam has been "altered" to look like a religion of FEAR. Basically, Islam was primarily the religion of peace, harmony and brotherhood. With the passage of time and particularly with the shift of caliphate with iron-head monarchy system, it really lost its true glory and message in terms of socio-political life of its subjects. The message is not completely "lost" yet but now has been obliterated due to ignorance and negligence of the so-called clergy men who think that they are the sole-owners of Islamic jurisprudence. I highly condemn the maulanas, clergy men, priests, and other forms of these stupid religious leaders; It is all because of them that Islam has undergone such a calamity for which i really regret a lot. But now being an optimistic, i feel that this sense of right and wrong is invoking in the youth of Muslim Ummah and hope one day they would be able to demolish this ignorant-Islamic-system by wit or by force, who knows.

 

If you have the same God as the Christians, I can understand why Muslims act so unpeacably, for Christians are much the same way.

 

True, a God can not be a God if he is incompetent but simultaneously blaming a God for the incompitence of Human beings is not the true logic. We always blame a God if we possess any shortcomings. It is not becuase of him but it is because of our own ignorance and sometimes arrogance. God is not subjected to the liabilities of the human actions, a human himself is subjected for such liabilities. Xians have a very different concept of God and Muslims an antirely different but whats wrong is there is that majority of both of these followers is based upon Hypocrites. They say something else, read something else, do something else and expect something else. How then they can say that they are observing the right path or really are obedient to one true God? For most of them, there God is none but wealth, fame and false pride. Unless we free ourselves firstly from this false religious dogma we would never be able to attain the reality. We should abandon the obliterated versions of Religion and should find a way which would mutually satisfy our worldly and spiritual needs with logic and rationality.

 

Perhaps you could supply us with the correct atributes of God, since the Jews and Christians have it wrong.

 

Hopefully. I have noticed that many people are having very wrong understanding of attributes of God; such as his Omni attributes, divine love and compassion and his existence. I would try my levels best to remove any misocnceptions in this regard as reuquired and as according to the questions of my dear fellows of this board.

 

Regards for every one

A Well Wisher

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Dear Vigile del fuoco 1 & Hansolo;

 

So what happens to us atheists? What about Budhists? Et al?

 

Well, it depends upon that what is your belief about God. If you clearly denies his existence, his messages and all other laws constituted by him then you wage a war against him and why i use such critical term? Because the accpetance of God's law is the basis of all morality and social order. If one denies the orders of God, he losts the code of conduct and thus starts making laws according to his own will (legalising gambling or homosexuality) which may prove either beneficial or detrimential for the society. However, in most cases, the latter is proven to be the outcome. So, even if u dont find a convincing evidence for the existence of God, one should first take into account that either recognising his existence is a matter of personal faith only or a matter of collective wellbeing? It can be challenged that majority will not exibit a moral and ethical attitude in the society if the recognition of God is nullified. Yes, a minority of atheists can exibit a same attitude as of a believer, most probably because of a goof and proper fostering but even then chances of diversion are high as the person gets adult.

I think I have to be even more clear about my question.

 

What happens to an unbeliever, atheist, non muslim, when they die?

 

Do they go to Hell as a punishment from God?

 

Besides I believe that "God's law" is based on what is established by humans and evolution as morality and social order. Bascially the other way around. "God" is just a concept of the things we don't understand (or didn't understand until science came along), and morality exists outside the concept of "God".

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Dear Vigile del fuoco 1 & Hansolo;

 

So what happens to us atheists? What about Budhists? Et al?

 

Well, it depends upon that what is your belief about God. If you clearly denies his existence, his messages and all other laws constituted by him then you wage a war against him and why i use such critical term? Because the accpetance of God's law is the basis of all morality and social order.

Which law is God's Law?

 

If one denies the orders of God, he losts the code of conduct and thus starts making laws according to his own will (legalising gambling or homosexuality) which may prove either beneficial or detrimential for the society.However, in most cases, the latter is proven to be the outcome.

Please cite any source or example that proves your point

 

Do muslims practice magic? Are there any lamps with Genies in it today that will grant my wishes?

 

Well, some so-called muslims do practice magic but it is actually strictly forbidden under Quranic Laws.

Yes they obviously aren't True Muslims™

 

Have you ever seen a genie or have any evidence o reason to believe in there existence besides the Quran?

 

Science has started to detect the human Aura and sooner or latter it shall detect the Jinns also.

No. Please cite source from a reliable scientific journal agreeing with your claim.

If you have read my article, i have written in great detail about the scientific hypothesis regarding their existence.
You gave me no such article. You only gave me a link to a forum discussion

 

 

They started talking about Jinns until some issue about a prophet consummating marriage with a nine year old girl popped up. What's that all about?

 

For this, i would recommend you to visit this detailed reply in a forum. Hopefully it will sufficiently answer all of your querries in this regard.

http://www.gawaher.com/index.php?showtopic...st&p=291343

Just tell me who had sex with a nine year old girl and why? I have no desire to read a long paper on something that can be written in a few sentences

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[21.50] And this [Quran] is a blessed Reminder which We have revealed; will you then deny it?

 

Yes. Your Quran is no different from any other religious text, man made not god breathed.

 

bdp

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Dear Vigile del fuoco 1 & Hansolo;

 

So what happens to us atheists? What about Budhists? Et al?

 

Well, it depends upon that what is your belief about God. If you clearly denies his existence, his messages and all other laws constituted by him then you wage a war against him and why i use such critical term? Because the accpetance of God's law is the basis of all morality and social order. If one denies the orders of God, he losts the code of conduct and thus starts making laws according to his own will (legalising gambling or homosexuality) which may prove either beneficial or detrimential for the society. However, in most cases, the latter is proven to be the outcome. So, even if u dont find a convincing evidence for the existence of God, one should first take into account that either recognising his existence is a matter of personal faith only or a matter of collective wellbeing? It can be challenged that majority will not exibit a moral and ethical attitude in the society if the recognition of God is nullified. Yes, a minority of atheists can exibit a same attitude as of a believer, most probably because of a goof and proper fostering but even then chances of diversion are high as the person gets adult.

 

 

Oh great, so now I'm going to the Muslim hell as well. I guess the gods will have to fight over my soul when I die since I don't believe in any of them. :HaHa:

 

It does sound like your religion is a little less restrictive than Christianity; at least as far as those who will get saved.

 

You have a tough road ahead of you if you wish to try and prove that a) homosexuality is detrimental to society; b ) that theists are more moral than non-theists; c) that there is absolute morality, which can be attributed to a god(s).

 

One more question though, if all I need to do to get to heaven is to believe and to do good, why do Muslims spend so much time performing ritual prayer and fasting?

 

Islam; A Pathway To Peace Or Destruction?

 

I admit that it is difficult to be completly informed about a subjet, but I don't see any evidence in the general news the Islam is a pathway to peace. It seems to me that Muslims are as willing if not more willing than Christians to wage war and terror in the name of God. Let's say I'm not overly impressed by your claim to peace. It would be nice to have a God that could actually provide what it claims for once. I don't see any God that can do that or will do it.

 

If you have the same God as the Christians, I can understand why Muslims act so unpeacably, for Christians are much the same way.

 

Perhaps you could supply us with the correct atributes of God, since the Jews and Christians have it wrong.

 

I'll play devil's advocate for a moment and make a suggestion. Many muslim nations are former colonial states and many today still contain a large chunk of the world's oil supply. As such these nations of peoples have suffered repression and invasion and manipulation at the hands of the west for quite some time. It is common to center one's world views around one's religion. When a group of people wish to fight suppression, they will act through their religion, which is the easiest rallying factor, as a way to lash out and strike back. In other words, perhaps it is not the religion that forces the violence, but the religion is used as an expression of the people's desire to fight back when they have few other alternatives. :shrug:

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Guest Shiva H. Vishnu

Dear Vigile del fuoco 1 & Hansolo;

 

So what happens to us atheists? What about Budhists? Et al?

 

Well, it depends upon that what is your belief about God. If you clearly denies his existence, his messages and all other laws constituted by him then you wage a war against him and why i use such critical term? Because the accpetance of God's law is the basis of all morality and social order. If one denies the orders of God, he losts the code of conduct and thus starts making laws according to his own will (legalising gambling or homosexuality) which may prove either beneficial or detrimential for the society. However, in most cases, the latter is proven to be the outcome. So, even if u dont find a convincing evidence for the existence of God, one should first take into account that either recognising his existence is a matter of personal faith only or a matter of collective wellbeing? It can be challenged that majority will not exibit a moral and ethical attitude in the society if the recognition of God is nullified. Yes, a minority of atheists can exibit a same attitude as of a believer, most probably because of a goof and proper fostering but even then chances of diversion are high as the person gets adult.

 

 

Oh great, so now I'm going to the Muslim hell as well. I guess the gods will have to fight over my soul when I die since I don't believe in any of them. :HaHa:

 

It does sound like your religion is a little less restrictive than Christianity; at least as far as those who will get saved.

 

You have a tough road ahead of you if you wish to try and prove that a) homosexuality is detrimental to society; B) that theists are more moral than non-theists; c) that there is absolute morality, which can be attributed to a god(s).

 

One more question though, if all I need to do to get to heaven is to believe and to do good, why do Muslims spend so much time performing ritual prayer and fasting?

 

Islam; A Pathway To Peace Or Destruction?

 

I admit that it is difficult to be completly informed about a subjet, but I don't see any evidence in the general news the Islam is a pathway to peace. It seems to me that Muslims are as willing if not more willing than Christians to wage war and terror in the name of God. Let's say I'm not overly impressed by your claim to peace. It would be nice to have a God that could actually provide what it claims for once. I don't see any God that can do that or will do it.

 

If you have the same God as the Christians, I can understand why Muslims act so unpeacably, for Christians are much the same way.

 

Perhaps you could supply us with the correct atributes of God, since the Jews and Christians have it wrong.

 

I'll play devil's advocate for a moment and make a suggestion. Many muslim nations are former colonial states and many today still contain a large chunk of the world's oil supply. As such these nations of peoples have suffered repression and invasion and manipulation at the hands of the west for quite some time. It is common to center one's world views around one's religion. When a group of people wish to fight suppression, they will act through their religion, which is the easiest rallying factor, as a way to lash out and strike back. In other words, perhaps it is not the religion that forces the violence, but the religion is used as an expression of the people's desire to fight back when they have few other alternatives. :shrug:

 

Exactly. Palestinians are terrorists and not freedom fighters for no other reason than the world has seen fit to align it's interests with the bully through painfully outdated ideologies and politically persuasive hucksterism. It's enough to piss off a pacifist.

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GM: Thanks for you lengthy post. As you request I will only deal with a couple of points and if you hang around long enough maybe we can discuss the rest of your reply ssometime.

 

[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

 

The Message is very clear, is not it?

GM: This passage cause me a problem because it does not clearly state the Christian doctrine of the trinity. In [5:116] "God shall say - 'O Jesus, son of Mary: hast thou said unto mankind, "Take me and my mother as two Gods, besides God"?' He shall say - 'Glory be to Thee! it is not for me to say that which I know not to be the truth;," The Koran seems to suggest that Christians believe the Holy Trnity to be made up of God, God the Son, and Mary the Mother of Jesus. This has never been the case and at face value seems to indicate this part of the Koran is in error.

 

But if God made man perfect, i.e his delight was always to do good, then why did he do evil. Can you see the contradiction?

Well, according to Quran, at the meantime when the creation of man was completed, the human being was awarded with the attribute and authority of "Free Will" within the laws of nature. All good or evil happens because of the excercise of this free will by a human being. If he uses it rightly, the laws make good consequences, if he uses it wrongly, the laws make evil/bad consequences. Thus, man his free in his actions but not in the consequences. He shall reap what he shall sow, now its upto him what he chosses to sow.

GM: Let me try to ask another way: We all know what it is like to be revolted by certain kinds of evil. If it is God who has made our nature to be revolted by certain kinds of evil why did he not make it universal amongst all people and why did he not make it applicable to all things he says are evil. If he had done this then my freewill would always choose the good and I would never want to do evil. Instead it would appear that God has made me imperfect because at times I do things that does not please him because my imperfect nature desires at times things that displease him. It does not seem just that God makes me imperfect when he could have made me perfect and then punishes me for his bad workmanship. Can you see there is no denial of freewill in having a perefect nature that takes delight in the good and is rejects the bad?

 

Surely, the concept of eternal punishment is not present in the whole Quran however, the punishment would be for a long time but not for eternity. The following two verses make it very clear.

 

[64.9] On the day that He will gather you for the day of gathering, that is the day of loss and gain; and whoever believes in Allah and does good, He will remove from him his evil and cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide therein forever ; that is the great achievement.

 

[72.23] (It is) only a delivering (of communications) from Allah and His messages; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle surely he shall have the fire of hell to abide therein for a long time .

GM: Is your interpretation common to all of Islam or only a part of it, i.e do others claim hell is an eternal punishment?

 

 

p.s thanks for taking the time to prepare such an in depth answer.

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TO:

 

Had opportunity to work.travel in several predominantly Islam influenced countries.

 

Will preface my remarks by saying I have met and been hosted by people and individuals who have been the epitomy of kindness and hospitality. That I have zero problem with the ways and methods of my hosts.

Good people sharing their homes with a relative stranger, being kind and generous to a fault.

 

Then..

 

I would not sacrifice my Freedom to live in such backwards pigsty places where technology, Freedoms as Americans understand them are non-existant. Cronism, nepotism, and family connections are the seemingly keys to riches.

 

Been to places where the elite live in luxury as Solomon while their subjects live the shittiest poverty imaginable.

 

Same places refuse offers of things such as well drilling and pump placement, solar panels for electricty, and simple things like lights due in part to the Iman's refusal to let his gods.book.people find some sembalance of modernity.

 

Watched several places on my job where young girls were summarily executed for not being *pure enough*, charges so slight that here in my country they would be laughable, however they were murdered for their religion by its male practicioners. Innocents slaughtered...

 

Seen and tried treating people with fixable medical problems while based up in villages and smaller posts, being refused the ability to do so, as the religious.leaders forbade contact with infidels..

 

Shooting several assholes who tried to take my medical teamies out after we found and repaired a car wreck of kids, including young women who had been run off a mountain road. We dared TOUCH the women, thus DEFILING them..

Seems according to their fucking law, it is better they DIED that be touched by dispassionate neutral medical help who happened to be rather male.

 

Will say that I had the lack.of.joy of taking lives, theirs, in defence of my people due to the crazy bastards and their strongly held belief in their sand diety. They died when they tried to take on a well trained and ready Team of life savers.. Bummer, I guess Allah needed more idiots to wipe pig grease off the wheels of the sun...

 

Since that particular time in my relative youth had opportunity to go to places again where Islam is the predominant form of cultural influence. In those places the prople are ignorant of the world they live in, are spoon fed what they need to think, and are totally discouraged from thought, travel, and upward mobility.

 

I will, to my last cartridge, and my dying breath fight the cancer on this world religion, especially Islam, compels upon people.

 

The battlecry of the American Revolution, "Live Free of Die" takes on new light when I see the plans of the Imans for Earth and its inhabitants..

 

Religion of Peace my fat, well armed, easy to piss off, ass..

 

kevin, BTDT, L

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I admit that it is difficult to be completly informed about a subjet, but I don't see any evidence in the general news the Islam is a pathway to peace. It seems to me that Muslims are as willing if not more willing than Christians to wage war and terror in the name of God. Let's say I'm not overly impressed by your claim to peace. It would be nice to have a God that could actually provide what it claims for once. I don't see any God that can do that or will do it.

 

For me it seems Islam proclaims peace.....for Muslims. To them, WE'RE the guilty ones, for being non-Muslim. Our mere non-Muslimness makes us a ruinous force in society and a target. True peace will be achieved not when peace is made and a hatchet buried, but when non-Muslims are eliminated from the globe.

 

As for the Quran, if the Torah and Bible are no longer applicable due to their being written for certain times and places, how can we be sure the Quran is not in the same situation? Both the Torah and the Bible make statements saying that they were to be true for all time, and I'm sure the Quran does the same.

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Hmmm... this is an interesting one for me.

 

When I lived in Colorado Springs, there was an Islamic center that had arson threats in the wake of 9/11. A motley mixture of Asatruar, Wiccans/ Pagans, Atheists, and Orthodox Christians (including my hubby and I) helped guard the place. I saw it this way-- if the grove at the park or the Garden of the Gods were ever threatened, we pagan sorts would want help too. (Yes, there are some Circles that meet at the Garden, in little hidden spots. More I will not say)

 

It proved an interesting case of people watching. I admit my stomach turned when I saw all the headscarves. But I've seen about the same attitude from Adventist men toward their woman sans scarves. One of the guards, a guy named John, had been in Turkey and gave us a run down on some sensitivity training 101. I would not have guessed that this guy owns a Qu'ran. (He's not Muslim) So us ladies talked with the Muslim ladies afterward. Away from their menfolk they were pretty amiable, not as reserved as I'd expected.

 

I won't soon forget that day. Now, I grant that this was in America, so these people were a little bit Westernized. But I did see people who were not seeking vengeance but rather praying that others might know them better instead. It was pretty interesting.

 

I do wonder how much of the "bad" side of Islam is due to pre-Qu'ranic customs. I am told that headscarves are one such custom. I do get the impression that excessive literalism fostered by fatwas and the like also does not help.

 

Then there are the aspects of Islam which are just wrong. I abhor the idea of religion being spread at sword point. I know just how well religion can be spread without coercion or force or even evangelism-- we're living that right now. (Wicca and other Pagans are doubling in population every couple of years. Frankly, it's growing TOO fast and people are calling themselves Wiccans or whatever long before they are knowledgeable enough to really understand anything) Islam suffers the fault of all Abrahamic religions in that they insist that THEY are the one true way and everyone else is an infidel. There is also this silly notion that people only get one chance at life, to be followed by judgement. I don't see much love in that. Frankly, it is fear rather than love that is fostered towards YHWH, Jesus, or Allah. Wrong answer.

 

Islam is not much different from the other Abrahamic religions. There are kernels of Truth scattered in there, and a lot of chaff created by literalist priesthoods bent on keeping in power, pre-religion customs keeping the people enslaved, and a general lack of ability to move beyond the black and white aspects. It's the chaff of Christianity that brought us all to this board. Most of us will not want to take on the chaff of Islam.

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Dear Chefranden;

I'm impressed by your attempt to answer everyone.

 

Well, Islam has been "altered" to look like a religion of FEAR. Basically, Islam was primarily the religion of peace, harmony and brotherhood. With the passage of time and particularly with the shift of caliphate with iron-head monarchy system, it really lost its true glory and message in terms of socio-political life of its subjects. The message is not completely "lost" yet but now has been obliterated due to ignorance and negligence of the so-called clergy men who think that they are the sole-owners of Islamic jurisprudence. I highly condemn the maulanas, clergy men, priests, and other forms of these stupid religious leaders; It is all because of them that Islam has undergone such a calamity for which i really regret a lot.

 

Odd, this is the same sort of thing that Christians say. I don't see how an all powerful God lets his best religion get all messed up. Surely God can do something to avoid allowing bad clergy and ignorance screw things up. If an all powerful and sovereign god's plans get messed up, it can only be because this God wants its plan messed up.

 

It would seem, by this admission, that Muhammad cannot be the last prophet. This sort of "alteration" must be just the sort of thing that messed up God's first 2 trys. Seems like it must be time for a new prophet.

 

But now being an optimistic,i feel that this sense of right and wrong is invoking in the youth of Muslim Ummah and hope one day they would be able to demolish this ignorant-Islamic-system by wit or by force, who knows.

 

I know. It will be by force, since this is how the God of Abraham leads.

 

True, a God can not be a God if he is incompetent but simultaneously blaming a God for the incompitence of Human beings is not the true logic. We always blame a God if we possess any shortcomings. It is not becuase of him but it is because of our own ignorance and sometimes arrogance. God is not subjected to the liabilities of the human actions, a human himself is subjected for such liabilities. Xians have a very different concept of God and Muslims an antirely different but whats wrong is there is that majority of both of these followers is based upon Hypocrites. They say something else, read something else, do something else and expect something else. How then they can say that they are observing the right path or really are obedient to one true God? For most of them, there God is none but wealth, fame and false pride. Unless we free ourselves firstly from this false religious dogma we would never be able to attain the reality. We should abandon the obliterated versions of Religion and should find a way which would mutually satisfy our worldly and spiritual needs with logic and rationality.

 

Again this is the same sort of thing Christians say. It doesn't seem to recommend a new and improved religion.

 

It is perfectly logical to blame God. If we are ignorant, short, and arrogant, it is because God made us ignorant, short, and arrogant. If the God of Abraham is real and as described by Islam and Christianity, then nothing can happen outside of its will including our ignorance, short comings, and arrogance. Therefore, if religion is in a mess it is God's fault.

 

If the problem is hypocracy as Christians also claim, then do you claim to be forthright? And if you claim to be forthright how do I know that you are not decieving me, because you yourself are decieved? After all one seldom meets a hypocrite that is aware that s/he is a hypocrite. Knowing this, how does one free themselves from false religious dogma?

 

You must forgive me for being as suspicious of one that implies he is a TrueMuslim™ as I would be of a TrueChristian™ with the same claim.

 

I think that we should abandon religion altogether. This would be an especially wise course of action, if it is really the case that humans are too stupid to get religion right. It is strange that God hasn't thought of that. However, I have no hope that this abandonment will happen. We are in the end not much smarter than our other primate cousins.

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Omniscient

 

Perhaps you can clear up for us how the following Koran scriptures encourage peace, love, etc.?

 

Koran 17:16-17

When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah's word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the Sins of his servants.

 

Who is "we" that decides to destroy the population?

 

Koran 8:012

Set 28, Count 62

...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

 

Hmmm...I've seen pictures of this being carried out. Can you please tell me where the message of peace is in that scripture? Also, please tell me how it is that the extremists have twisted that scripture.

 

 

Koran 5:33

The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land.

 

I oppose Allah and Mohammed, am I deserving of having my feet and hands cut off? I'm a wife and loving mother.

 

Koran 17:46-47

And we put coverings over their hearts and minds, lest they should understand the Koran, and we put deafness in their ears; when you commemorate your Lord (Allah) and Him alone in the Koran.

 

I'm not Muslim so maybe I have misunderstood some of these verses.

 

 

Koran 4.137:

Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve,

then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.

 

This appears to be an unforgiveable sin.

 

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

 

M'kay, please tell me how that is misunderstood.

 

and this...

 

If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 4:91

 

Now this one really throws me for a loop, so Allah can cause me to sin and then PUNISH me? WTF??? Where is this 'free will' that you said all men have?

 

Allah makes some people sin. He will not cleanse their hearts. They will have ignominy in this world, and in the Hereafter an awful doom. 5:41

 

Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve. 9:3

 

How as a human being can I not be scared shitless that people take these literally and there are numerous others but I'm feeling sick.

 

 

 

 

There was also a verse saying that unbelievers will be burned in hell and that when their skin burns off, a new one will be supplied~

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There was also a verse saying that unbelievers will be burned in hell and that when their skin burns off, a new one will be supplied~

That's the answer I wanted.

 

Now I know Allah is not God either. *squeek* *plopp* *clonk* (the sound of me open the trashbin, and drop Allah into it with the rest of so called gods)

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You seemed to accept the bible texts as being Gods work originally. Why then did he allow his word to become distorted. Surely he would have protected it?

 

Well, as i stated before, God did not take the responsibility of protecting those scriptures and said that those people, xians ,hebrews / jews, are responsible for the protection of the word of God and it is a test from him to check their hypocricy. But, the preservation of Quran was very important as it could not be left upon the responsibility of common people who actually failed the previous tests as well therefore; God himself took the responsibility so the message is eternal as well as the one who is protecting it. you may find the following evidences helpful;

What I hear here is absolutely nothing different than all the ways of rationalizing things that any other religious person does. "A test of their hypocrisy"? Is this supported in any way, shape or form by modern textual criticism, or does it rely solely on a criticism of one holy book over another, and then running to the competitor's scripture and reading it to fit your ideas? This is nothing new here. This is just trying to offer some answer for a glaring contradiction in the whole premise of another holy book that claims to be the word of god.

 

If you were to really understand the evolution of these stories of the Bible in light of modern scholarship, then to look at how the Quran assumes them to be accurate, but just "off" theologically in ways that it wishes to claim the superior position with, you see not a Holy Book from God, but just another step in the evolution of human-created religions.

 

Is the Quran the actual words of Mohammad? Exactly what is the oldest surviving manuscript? To my knowledge it is 150 years after the life of Mohammed, and all the other competing manuscripts were gathered up and burned by a king who wanted to consolidate the religion. How do you know the real original one didn't get burned up? Did Allah guide that king? Was that king a prophet? Was God protecting that text? If so, he couldn't with his other texts?

 

Nothing of these answers is very convincing. If you want to simply say you like what the religion teaches, and leave it at that, I don't have much of a problem with that. But if you try to pursuade with these sorts of reasonings that shows it to be correct above all others, you won't get off the ground with someone like me. Islam is another religion like all others. Not the true one, any more than Hindusim, or Buddhism, or Judaism, or any other worldview of human beings.

 

I respect religions as institutions of human aspirations, but I do not appreciate them when they claim to be the only truth above all others. At that point they become self-serving, and no longer serve its followers.

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