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Islam; A Pathway To Peace Or Destruction?


The_Omniscient

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Dear Hansolo;

 

What happens to an unbeliever, atheist, non muslim, when they die? Do they go to Hell as a punishment from God?

 

Any person, be he/she an unbleiever, an atheist, a non-muslim or a muslim ; If the person has not followed the commands of God and has not obeyed his laws and in the result , made trouble for other humanbeings by either his actions or his Intent; such person is subjected to the divine-punishment. I would like to make it clear that sometimes we knowingly and many a times we unknowingly follow the commands or Laws of God. for example, an atheist is prefering to not kill an innocent human because he believes that killing an innocent is not good, on the other hand a believer is killing an innocent human despite of believing that such killing is forbidden by Lord so; whatever are the reasons, whether they are obeying or disobeying the law after having it read in the scripture or because of the country's law or becuase of the social custom or whatever: If they are obeying it .. they will be counted as obedient ones. Similarly, if they are disobeying it, they would be counted as disbelievers or disobedients.

 

Bascially the other way around. "God" is just a concept of the things we don't understand (or didn't understand until science came along), and morality exists outside the concept of "God".

 

Well, to me if the role of God is excluded then initially we can easily understand the things on a primary level witht he help of science and logic but as the levle would increase, we would be exposed to too many perplexions which could not be sumup via science or logic alone. Still in our current era, we really not wholly depend upon pure sceicne. We take help and guidance from different topics of sociology, psychology, mysticism, parapsychology, humanities and several others, which could be regarded as the extended form of science but not the pure-science itself. Secondly, be removing the God-term, we simply remove the Universal-standard of people to distinguish moral right and moral wrong. We see that in the countries where people dont belive upon God, the Governments are doing very painstaking legislations regarding moral-offences especially and other crimes generally. We just saw that a power-failure in the New york city caused much harm and damadge to innocent lives and properties of the people. This thing suggests that if somehow the writ of Government would be vanished, the people would become wild-animals because they are obeying the man-made laws willingly, unwillingly or as a complusion only. On the other Hand, a person who believes on accountability by God, would not commit any act which would be in contradiction with the true- teachings of the God whether a functioning Human Government is present or not. For a further detailed logical argument, i recommend u to visit this webpage http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-arguments-god/.

 

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Dear Taylork45;

 

Which law is God's Law?

 

All the Natural, Biological, Chemical, Physical and Quantum physical laws of Universe are God's Laws. Besides, the Moral laws and code of conduct as revealed in the scriptures are also God's laws provided, the scripture is free of human-corruption.

 

Please cite any source or example that proves your point

 

Well, i would like you to consider the following extracts along their resourses;

 

The social impact of gambling is often hidden from the citizens who decide to participate in legalized gambling. But later these costs show up in the shattered lives of individuals and their families. Psychologist Julian Taber warns, "No one knows the social costs of gambling or how many players will become addicted...the states are experimenting with the minds of the people on a massive scale."(7) Families are torn apart by strife, divorce, and bankruptcy. Boydon Cole and Sidney Margolius in their book, When You Gamble--You Risk More Than Your Money, conclude: "There is no doubt of the destructive effect of gambling on the family life. The corrosive effects of gambling attack both the white-collar and blue-collar families with equal vigor."(8) http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/gambling.html

 

Male homosexuals are prone to cancer (especially anal cancer, which is almost unheard-of in male heterosexuals) and various sexually transmitted diseases, including urethritis, laryngitis, prostatitis, hepatitis A and B, syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes, and genital warts (which are caused by the human papilloma virus, which also causes genital cancers).52 Lesbians are at lower risk for STDs but at high risk for breast cancer.53 Homosexuals of both sexes have high rates of drug abuse, including cocaine, marijuana, LSD and other psychedelics, barbiturates, and amyl nitrate.54

 

Male homosexuals are particularly prone to develop sexually transmitted diseases, in part because of the high degree of promiscuity displayed by male homosexuals. One study in San Francisco showed that 43 percent of male homosexuals had had more than 500 sexual partners.55 Seventy-nine percent of their sexual partners were strangers. Only 3 percent had had fewer than ten sexual partners.56 The nature of sodomy contributes to the problem among male homosexuals. The rectum is not designed for sex. It is very fragile. Indeed, its fragility and tendency to tear and bleed is one factor making anal sex such an efficient means of transmitting the AIDS and hepatitis viruses. We know that children raised in families containing one non-biological parent are dozens of times more likely to be abused than children raised by both biological parents.63 In some studies, children raised by homosexual partners seem to suffer from sex-role confusion.64 Studies by Cameron and Cameron have shown a high incidence of incest between minor children and homosexual parents of both sexes.65 These investigators suggest that homosexual parents may be more likely to abuse their children sexually than heterosexual parents, so although the point is not definitively proven, the available evidence is worrisome.http://www.catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp

 

No. Please cite source from a reliable scientific journal agreeing with your claim.

 

Consider the following passage;

 

RFI™, and the presumption of the existence of the Aura, is based upon the principle that all mental activity is electromagnetic. While some medical theorists argue that mental activity is chemical, because of the chemical neurotransmitters involved, the fact is that neurotransmitters are created only when electrical impulses induce a voltage in a neuron which exceeds its firing threshold. In addition, EEG (electroencephalogram) technology shows that mental activity can be effectively analyzed and monitored entirely by electromagnetic principlesScientists from the Russian Association of Human Ecology and Energyinformatic Science believe that the electromagnetic properties of the Aura detected by Kirlian and RFI™ methods may be only symptoms, or traces, of a deeper underlying cause. This cause is believed to be bioenergy in the form of torsion fields.

http://www.item-bioenergy.com/rfi/science.html

http://www.norwoodfunk.com/the_lab/htdocs/...an/kirlian.html

 

I do hope that above cited references would be of help for you.

 

You gave me no such article. You only gave me a link to a forum discussion

 

Well, it was in that discussion when i posted about the scientific hypothesis regarding the existence of Jinns in the light of Quran. That post was quite longer thats why i term it as an article.

 

I have no desire to read a long paper on something that can be written in a few sentences

 

I would still recommend you to visit the link where you can just skim the post to have a quick view of the topic. I actually am avoiding to write myself here becuase it would cause me a great time and research to write here.I assure you that even after reading that post, if u would still possess some questions, you would be welcome to ask them.

 

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Dear bdp;

 

Your Quran is no different from any other religious text, man made not god breathed.

 

May I ask what makes you to think like that? Is it only a quick reaction or a well thought response? If a well thought response, i would like to know the objective-reason that why Quran appears to be a book of man to you, instead of a book of God?

 

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Dear Vigile del fuoco1;

 

You have a tough road ahead of you if you wish to try and prove that a) homosexuality is detrimental to society; b ) that theists are more moral than non-theists; c) that there is absolute morality, which can be attributed to a god(s).

 

Well, (a) has been proven via the references i mentioned above. © is also somewhat replied in abovementioned replies. Lets discuss the ( B) . According to my personal experience and my point of view based upon proper research and studies, I have found that atheists and theists both can be moral as well as immoral. However, i have seen that mostly, atheists are sexually-immoral, they use abusive language and they lack morality for elders and respect for freedom of expression of the believers. They very happily use their freedom of abuse against believers and the one who is believed i.e. God and Holy belongings. Apart of that, in practical life; they usually follow most of the rules and laws of society and oftenly exibit the behavior of an obedient citizen. However, on individual basis, the atheists lack morality regarding language, sex and respect. On the other hand, theists are mostly hypocrites and confused people who actually do not do what they are required to do but they appear to be moral in using their freedom of expression and possess respect for others but as reagrds the sexual crimes are concerned, their is no discrimination of a theist or an atheist, both are similar. A true theist, i.e. a true believer however is exempted from the group of general confused theists. This however was my personal expereince, what opinion do you have?

 

One more question though, if all I need to do to get to heaven is to believe and to do good, why do Muslims spend so much time performing ritual prayer and fasting?

 

Well, most prayers of Muslims are actually the practical example of how to do good and how to be a good person. By offering 5 times prayer, they get a sense of accountability that they are accountable infront of God for their actions. By fasting for a month each year, they actually get the practical experience that how it feels when one suffers from hunger and thurst and thus it motivates them to help the needy & poor folks who can not meet their neccessary expenses even. By paying Zakat i.e. the obligatory charity once an year, the class difference between the rich and poor can be minimised and even diminished. By offering pillgrimage to house of God, they get the lesson of universal brotherhood and unity and how to respect different cultures. One can easily see that no rituals and worships of Muslims is just customary or ceremonial. Each worship has its own worth and value in the process of forming a welfare society. however the present Hypocritical world of Muslims may not show what is actually required to be shown. Indeed, Islam is the only religion which not only asks you to do Good but also tells you the ways that how to do Good.

 

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Dear Shiva h.Vishnu;

 

Exactly. Palestinians are terrorists and not freedom fighters

 

Well, what do you say about Bhagvad Gita if you have read it properly. Does it not ask to fight for the truth and remove Evil? When Arjun was not finding himself ready to fight his own cousins, what the Krishna told him? Did he not tell him to be brave and to fight against evil? Similarly, palestinians are fighting an Evil state which has only been working upon one point agenda i.e. to terminate each and every Arab surrounding the "promised lands". So who is working on outdated ideologies, Israleites or palestinians? Try to make an honest reply.

 

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Dear Golden Meadows;

 

The Koran seems to suggest that Christians believe the Holy Trnity to be made up of God, God the Son, and Mary the Mother of Jesus. This has never been the case and at face value seems to indicate this part of the Koran is in error.

 

Well, if it would have been the case then Quran would have been in Error.But, I could not find the word "trinity" here although it was actually mentioned in the Quran in two verses (4:171 and 5:73). In these two verses though Mary is not mentioned as "the third Person of the Holy Trinity". So, why did you think that God meant the current concept of Trinity in this verse? And why hadn't you noticed the other two verses? Isn't the fact that the trinity here is not explicitly mentioned enough? If not, would it be enough to know that there were people out there who actually worshipped Mary? The fact that you believe in the Trinity that was introduced hundreds of years after Jesus, does not mean that this is the only belief that ever existed. What about the Collyridians? "Kollyridians or Collyridians were adorers of Mary in the 4th century Arabia, as Epiphanius mentioned in his writing against heretics (see: Haer. 78, 23; 79). In another reference, George Sale (The Koran, IX Edition of 1923, J B Lippincott Company, London, p. 25) says: "Among the Arabs it was that the heresies of Ebion, Beryllus, and the Nazareans, and also that of the Collyridians, were broached, or at least propagated; the latter introduced the Virgin Mary for God, or worshipped her as such offering her a sort of twisted cake called collyris, whence the sect had its name.

 

This notion of the divinity of the Virgin Mary was also believed by some at the Council of Nice, who said there were two gods besides the Father viz. Christ and the virgin Mary, and were thence named Mariamites."So clearly there were people out there who worshipped Mary and Jesus! Isn't this what the Quran says? Moreover, the existing concept of trinity is not exactly what it had been in ancient christianity. The God in all cited verses of Quran ahs actually condemned all forms of trinity which one can make. So, in conclusion, there is no point calling the modern day trinitarian Christianity as 'true' Christianity and all others as 'false' since the evolution of this doctrine itself is very late. The early Christianity had bizarre beliefs about their doctrine as well as their Scriptures. Moreover the Jesus and early Church Fathers were utterly unaware of this doctrine and they never practiced it. Would then the modern day 'true' Christianity brand them as heretics?

 

Let me try to ask another way: We all know what it is like to be revolted by certain kinds of evil.

 

Sorry dear but after reading it couple of times again and again I could not get the meaning of first part of your question. What actually were you asking? Could you please put it in simple terms? I understood the later part but i would prefer to give you a joint reply.

 

Is your interpretation common to all of Islam or only a part of it, i.e do others claim hell is an eternal punishment?

 

Well, there are a few sects which claim that hell would be eternal but majority believes that Mercy of God is 100 times greater then Wrath of God. You may find the opinion divided but, as a matter of fact no opinion and no ruling is bigger then the word of God thus; what Quran says is actually the reality, what other oppinions are, they are just oppinions.

 

By the way, thanks for limiting the number of your questions & accepting my request.

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Dear nivek;

 

I will, to my last cartridge, and my dying breath fight the cancer on this world religion, especially Islam, compels upon people.

 

You have only expressed your personal opinion of which i should respect as it is partly based upon reality and truth, i admit. You have not asked me any question, If you would have asked me the reason about all this or about my oppinion, i would have told you somethings which could remove some of your misconceptions about a religion and especially Islam.

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Dear The Sage Nabooru;

 

To them, WE'RE the guilty ones, for being non-Muslim.

 

Well, dear fellow you are in a great misunderstanding. In the same thread i have given a very detailed reply regarding this and i would appreciate if you could take out some of your precious time to read that. No where in Quran, non-muslims are condemned. Quran condemns the non-believers & the Hypocrites. You amy nto find the word non-muslim in whole Quran. Rather, Quran is a guide for the people of every religion.

 

Both the Torah and the Bible make statements saying that they were to be true for all time, and I'm sure the Quran does the same.

 

Could you please provide me with the refrences of the verses from Bible (OT & NT) where such claims are made? Thank you.

 

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As for other fellows, i would reply shortly.

 

Regards for every one

A Well Wisher

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What happens to an unbeliever, atheist, non muslim, when they die? Do they go to Hell as a punishment from God?

 

Any person, be he/she an unbleiever, an atheist, a non-muslim or a muslim ; If the person has not followed the commands of God and has not obeyed his laws and in the result , made trouble for other humanbeings by either his actions or his Intent; such person is subjected to the divine-punishment.

Well this is complete and utter bullshit.

 

Both religions supply verses telling the believer to go out and kill people that don't believe the same way that they do.

 

So, if I subscribe to either religion, and I do NOT go out and kill those who believe differently than I do, I suffer eternal punishment for disobedience to the commands of God.

 

 

Don't look at me that way you lunatic!

You're the one supporting this shit.

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You've hit the nail right on the head Fweethawt! This person is really trying to sell a total package about how accomodating Islam is toward others of a different theology, yet is convienently, almost deliberately leaving out(or greatly watering down the consequences) what really awaits non-believers in the afterlife as evidenced by the citations quoted Jubilant.

 

My bullshit meter is going wildly off the chart here! Being that my husband is muslim, he has stated in no uncertain terms what sort of afterlife befalls the kafirs (i.e. nonbelievers, polytheists..etc) and others who do not share the same theology, even though they may be compassionate human beings.(Luckily though in all of these 17 years, he's never tried to convert me as he knows exactly where I stand concerning organized religions).

 

Although annyoing, at least many of the rabidly fundy Christians that I have seen on this board will disseminate all of the negative consequences from the get-go to us infidels. Hmmmm, it almost appears that this person is using taquiyya in order to fish for converts on this board...NOT!

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Dear Golden Meadows;

 

GM: The Koran seems to suggest that Christians believe the Holy Trnity to be made up of God, God the Son, and Mary the Mother of Jesus. This has never been the case and at face value seems to indicate this part of the Koran is in error.

 

Well, if it would have been the case then Quran would have been in Error. But, I could not find the word "trinity" here although it was actually mentioned in the Quran in two verses (4:171 and 5:73).

 

GM: In 4:171 these seem to be two possibilities for the trinity because of an ambiguity in the text:

[a] Christ Jesus, The Word of Allah, A spirit of Allah

 

Christ Jesus who is the Word of Allah, Mary , A spirit of Allah.

 

The english text strongly suggests to me but either way its not the Trinity known to Christians, i.e The Father, Son and Holy Spirit of Mathew 28:19.

 

When we look at other passages that might deal with the Trinity:

 

5:73 Mentions Trinity but does not name the members so is not relevant

 

In 5:116 Trinity is not explicitly mentioned but in the context of 4:171 it seems reasonable to assume that since Jesus, Mary and the Allah are once again involved and the worship of Jesus and Mary is condemned again, like in the previous passages, it indeed relates to the wrongly indentified Christian Trinity

 

In these two verses though Mary is not mentioned as "the third Person of the Holy Trinity".

GM: I would suggest that Mary is most likely mentioned in 4:171, see above but either way the definition of Trinity given in 5:116 is not Christian.

 

If not, would it be enough to know that there were people out there who actually worshipped Mary?

GM: There are people who worship her today but they dont believe she is a member of the Christian Trinity, i.e she is a personification of the Goddess. There has always been breakaway groups who go their own way and start their own church but they are not considered Apostolic nor are they significant in numbers.

 

The fact that you believe in the Trinity [GM: p.s I am not a Christian! ] that was introduced hundreds of years after Jesus, does not mean that this is the only belief that ever existed.

GM: Though the word Trinity is not used in the bible but the doctrine is clearly there in Mathew 28:19 and can be deduced from other readings - but am not trying to argue the case for Christianity, only trying to find out if the Koran is in error, in which case it cannot be Gods infallible word.

 

"So clearly there were people out there who worshipped Mary and Jesus! Isn't this what the Quran says?

GM: This excuse would be valid if the Koran was only the work of a fallible man who only knew the errors surrounding him. But if the Koran was truly the exact word of God then God who is omniscient would have know that mainline Christianity did not have a Trinity the way it is suggested in the Koran. i.e its limitations in knowledge point to human and not divine authorship.

 

 

Moreover, the existing concept of trinity is not exactly what it had been in ancient christianity.

GM: Like I say the the biblical trinity of Mathew 28:19 is still the same Trinity today for Christians, i.e it has never changed. The word "Trinity" is as shorthand way of summing up a doctrine. Just because the word was not in NT vocabularly at the time it was being written doesn't mean the doctrine was not there.

 

Sometimes non-christians, and even sometimes christians, get confused about councils of the church deciding things on such a such a date as if thats the date they were invented. Councils usually only defined a doctrine when it was subject to attack and they wanted to silence the debate on the matter. Councils never met to create new doctrine but rather confirm what was already part of tradition but which had come under attack, i.e the doctrine may be refined, developed but not created. Doctrine was not invented in Nicea but confirmed.

 

I am only giving you this as information not to defend the truth of Christian revelation. Please see this link which covers many of these issues:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

 

 

The God in all cited verses of Quran ahs actually condemned all forms of trinity which one can make.

GM: I agree that the Koran seems to place great emphasis on this issue of Trinity, i.e suggesting blasphemeny etc but surely if God was the author he would have got the Christian Trinity exactly right and without risk of misinterpretation? Surely he being omniscient would have recognised in advance the problem these passages would cause?

 

 

GM: Let me try to ask another way: We all know what it is like to be revolted by certain kinds of evil.

 

Sorry dear but after reading it couple of times again and again I could not get the meaning of first part of your question. What actually were you asking? Could you please put it in simple terms? I understood the later part but i would prefer to give you a joint reply.

 

GM: [a] We think things are evil and refuse to have anything to do with them. God has given us a nature that turns away from evil things.

 

Unfortunatley God has not been consistant. Sometimes our nature is attracted to what God says is not good. Why did give us an imperfect nature that is attracted to things he does not like.

 

[c] If God had given us all a perfect nature we would use our freewill to always choose the good and never to choose what was against our nature, i.e what God says is evil.

 

[d] Why did God make us with imperfect natures and them blame us for his bad workmanship?

 

 

GM: Is your interpretation common to all of Islam or only a part of it, i.e do others claim hell is an eternal punishment?

 

Well, there are a few sects which claim that hell would be eternal but majority believes that Mercy of God is 100 times greater then Wrath of God. You may find the opinion divided but, as a matter of fact no opinion and no ruling is bigger then the word of God thus; what Quran says is actually the reality, what other oppinions are, they are just oppinions.

GM: o.k i understand better but does it mean that all people will get into heaven at some time or do you mean that those who go to hell are punished but then destroyed without any further pain to them at some point?

 

p.s i understand that the Surahs are not in chronological order in the Quaran. My copy doesn't give such information - do you have any links where I can get this data?

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Dear Hansolo;

 

What happens to an unbeliever, atheist, non muslim, when they die? Do they go to Hell as a punishment from God?

 

Any person, be he/she an unbleiever, an atheist, a non-muslim or a muslim ; If the person has not followed the commands of God and has not obeyed his laws and in the result , made trouble for other humanbeings by either his actions or his Intent; such person is subjected to the divine-punishment. I would like to make it clear that sometimes we knowingly and many a times we unknowingly follow the commands or Laws of God. for example, an atheist is prefering to not kill an innocent human because he believes that killing an innocent is not good, on the other hand a believer is killing an innocent human despite of believing that such killing is forbidden by Lord so; whatever are the reasons, whether they are obeying or disobeying the law after having it read in the scripture or because of the country's law or becuase of the social custom or whatever: If they are obeying it .. they will be counted as obedient ones. Similarly, if they are disobeying it, they would be counted as disbelievers or disobedients.

That's good. Then I don't need God. Because I'm a good person, obeying the law of the land, and taking care of my family, and show them love and respect (probably more than most religious people). Sounds like God will give me his best mansion in Heaven.

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What happens to an unbeliever, atheist, non muslim, when they die? Do they go to Hell as a punishment from God?

 

Any person, be he/she an unbleiever, an atheist, a non-muslim or a muslim ; If the person has not followed the commands of God and has not obeyed his laws and in the result , made trouble for other humanbeings by either his actions or his Intent; such person is subjected to the divine-punishment.

Well this is complete and utter bullshit.

 

Both religions supply verses telling the believer to go out and kill people that don't believe the same way that they do.

 

So, if I subscribe to either religion, and I do NOT go out and kill those who believe differently than I do, I suffer eternal punishment for disobedience to the commands of God.

 

 

Don't look at me that way you lunatic!

You're the one supporting this shit.

 

Preach it, Brothah Fwee!

 

That's exactly it - and we know this guy is not out killing unbelievers and instead making excuses for those plain passages of the koran™. He doesn't dare to, anymore than the Xians who pound their Babbles™ do the same, or faithful Orthodick Jews who claim to be sooo "true" to the Torah™.

 

And yes, it seems like this guy is just trying sneaky tricks to win converts - much like most of the Xians who come here do. Funny that he didn't respond one word to my initial post above - perhaps I came off too strong, to solid in my beliefs and too wise to the filth of the koran™ and Is-lame?

 

Just another Abrahamic tosspot :Wendywhatever:

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Which law is God's Law?

All the Natural, Biological, Chemical, Physical and Quantum physical laws of Universe are God's Laws. Besides, the Moral laws and code of conduct as revealed in the scriptures are also God's laws provided, the scripture is free of human-corruption.

Which scripture?

 

If one denies the orders of God, he losts the code of conduct and thus starts making laws according to his own will (legalising gambling or homosexuality) which may prove either beneficial or detrimential for the society.However, in most cases, the latter is proven to be the outcome.

Male homosexuals are prone to cancer (especially anal cancer, which is almost unheard-of in male heterosexuals) and various sexually transmitted diseases, including urethritis, laryngitis, prostatitis, hepatitis A and B, syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes, and genital warts (which are caused by the human papilloma virus, which also causes genital cancers)...Homosexuals of both sexes have high rates of drug abuse, including cocaine, marijuana, LSD and other psychedelics, barbiturates, and amyl nitrate.54

They say the same things about my fellow african americans. They say we are more prone to cancers, diesease and drug use and african america's are usually the most religious people I've ever seen. So this quote doesn't prove your point. Also if prostate cancer and anal cancer are the same then both homosexual and heterosexuals get it.

 

52 Lesbians are at lower risk for STDs but at high risk for breast cancer.

:Hmm:

 

I love your sources. They aren't biased at all.

 

RFI™, and the presumption of the existence of the Aura, is based upon the principle that all mental activity is electromagnetic. While some medical theorists argue that mental activity is chemical, because of the chemical neurotransmitters involved, the fact is that neurotransmitters are created only when electrical impulses induce a voltage in a neuron which exceeds its firing threshold. In addition, EEG (electroencephalogram) technology shows that mental activity can be effectively analyzed and monitored entirely by electromagnetic principlesScientists from the Russian Association of Human Ecology and Energyinformatic Science believe that the electromagnetic properties of the Aura detected by Kirlian and RFI™ methods may be only symptoms, or traces, of a deeper underlying cause. This cause is believed to be bioenergy in the form of torsion fields.

http://www.item-bioenergy.com/rfi/science.html

http://www.norwoodfunk.com/the_lab/htdocs/...an/kirlian.html

This shows ghost and Genies/Jinns might be real?

 

-EDIT-

Woot 400th post!!!!!

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Dear Chefranden;

 

I'm impressed by your attempt to answer everyone.

 

Thanks. It is also an honor for me to have such intellectual questions and thats why i feel it as dutious for me to satisfy every question as much as I could.

 

I don't see how an all powerful God lets his best religion get all messed up.

 

Well, I feel that you concept reagrding attributes of God is may not be correct. God certainly is all powerfull as he is attributed; The Omnipotent but, the lack of free-will makes his actions limited and obliges him to take those measures which require long time and efforts but, this kind of scenario does not necessarily effect the plan of God however, it may cause some detriment to it. You may be wondering that what do I mean by lack of Free-will. Well, as regards the free will is concerned, first we need to understand the term "free-will". As i dont want to prolong my post thus i would try to be brief and to the point only. Free-Will means to do anything whatever the subject requires or wants without any hindrance or barriers.

 

Speaking about God, the God does not possess absolute free will. His free will is subjected to the provisions of his divine-laws or in more easier terms, the natural-laws so constituted by him. Before the legislation of these laws, he had been possessing the absolute free will but as he has himself enacted these laws which are also applicablle on him, thus now he is subjected to the compliance of his own made laws. An example is like a constitutional monarch. A monarch can only use his preorgative within the provisions of a constituion, similarly, God now can perform within the scope of his constiuted laws but the day of judgement shall be an exception when all these laws shall be suspended or dissolved and God shall again could use his absolute free will.

 

In a nutshell, God can not do or would probably not choose to break his own laws thus it makes his free will limited so, in this scenario we can say that God does not possess an absolute free will for a time being.

 

I think that we should abandon religion altogether. This would be an especially wise course of action, if it is really the case that humans are too stupid to get religion right.

 

Well, you would find the similar kind of religious priests in all religions, Be they xian, jews, hindus or muslims. They all are actually the man of their "own"interests not for "God's"interest. For example, Democracy is a recognised welfare system of Government as comparing to dictatorship but we know that during its implementation, many a times much toruble is caused and many revolutions are required be they bloody or blodd-less. Our whole history is wittness to this. Does this mean that we should outlaw the very system of democracy as a welfare system of Government? No. We should not. SImilarly, there are black sheeps in the system of religion who make great troubles for those who seriously want to adopt it and thus misguidde them greatly. But this thing does not mean that the very system of religion should be abandoned. We know that it has more advantages to the disadvantages if adopted correctly. In a nutshell, abandoning religion by all means would result in a total chaos and destruction, for sure.

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Dear Jubliant;

 

Who is "we" that decides to destroy the population?

 

In the quoted verse, "We" stands for the God almighty. In several places of Quran one may find the pronoun We for God rather then I. It is actually used as a Royal-Pronoun. Like when a Monarch addresses, He/She usually uses We rather then I to assert the sense of Royalty, Honor and Power.

 

Can you please tell me where the message of peace is in that scripture? Also, please tell me how it is that the extremists have twisted that scripture.

 

Dear fellow, you have made a same attempt, intentionally or unintentionally, which many others also make. Is it a just act to cite something without its context? As i already said in this thread, it is extremely important that while quoating a divine message, one must relate it to the context not out of context as for any message, be it for human or by human, citation wihtout context can breed desired interpretations. In order to get a clear message, one must read and cite the whole context of the message. As for this verse, let i quote it for you with other concerned verses;

 

[8:12] Recall that your Lord inspired the angels: "I am with you; so support those who believed. I will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved. You may strike them above the necks, and you may strike even every finger."

 

[8:13] This is what they have justly incurred by fighting GOD and His messenger. For those who fight against GOD and His messenger, GOD's retribution is severe.

 

[8:14] This is to punish the disbelievers ; they have incurred the retribution of Hell.

 

[8.15] O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them

 

[8:16] Anyone who turns back on that day, except to carry out a battle plan, or to join his group, has incurred wrath from GOD, and his abode is Hell; what a miserable destiny!

 

Well, read the above verses again and again and then tell me, Is it aimed for innocent people or for those who are militants/armymen. It is very clear in this case that these verses are regarding the actions of believers in the battle field. Do you expect a person to happily let his head choped of out of love and mercy for everyone? Exactly not. In a war, enemies are supposed to terminate each other. this is the very theory and meaning of a battle. Now what are the rules of battle in Islam? according to Quran, the battle rules are as follow;

 

[60.8] God does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

 

[60.9] God only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

 

It is clear that all these verses are in a context to a battle which was fought between the believers and disbelievers. If you read the opening verses of this chapter, you wil lget more information about this battle and the very name of this chapter is The Spoils of War (Al-Anfaal). Now,tell me, is it not very clear in the verses that what kind of disbelievers are subjected for a battle? If a disbeliver enjoins a war with the believer just because of the religion and drives him out from his home means invades his land and makes alliance with others in order to terminate the believers then, as a matter of self-defence the believers are allowed to have a war with them and to be brave and not cowards and then they should have faith that God is with them who would help them with Angels. Now, what kind of "terrorism" can you find in these verses for disbelievers???

 

Firstly, you may not be knowing the Quranic definition of a "dis-believer". It is not a common ordinary definition that every non-muslim is a disbeliever. If it would have been the case, the God would have used the word "Non-Muslim" rather then "disbeliever". Disbeliever is actually a person who does not obey the God's law and his commands and make terrorism and problems on Land for others. Such a person is a disbeliever, be a muslim or non-muslim, and if such person, in his actions, wadges a war against you ,then one can defend himself with full-force.

 

All other cited verses are also out of their context and the above one is sufficient to prove the importance of context. Still, if u require the clearrification for the rest, you may ask one by one not so many altogether as i am a single person, not an institute I hope you would understand this reply with sincerity and honesty & i expect a just reply from yourside. If any of my words have hurt you, I apologise for them.

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Dear Antlerman;

 

Is the Quran the actual words of Mohammad? Exactly what is the oldest surviving manuscript?

 

Well, if you have read the rest of the thread, somewhere i have posted the links refarding such information. I would like to visit them and then if u find anything unacceptable, you could ask me with references so i shall answer you appropriately. I would appreciate your cooperation in this regard.

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Dear Fweethawt;

 

Both religions supply verses telling the believer to go out and kill people that don't believe the same way that they do.

 

Well, i would like to listen to your claim with references from the scriptures of both religions. I would make it clear that do not see what the people say, see what the scriptures say. I reserve my further comments till the time you would come up with some references. Thank You.

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Dear DucorpsToo;

 

what really awaits non-believers in the afterlife as evidenced by the citations quoted Jubilant.

 

I hope you would have read my reply to Jubliant. If you are that kind of an "unbeliever" then surely your place is well destined but if not, as i hope, then nothing to worry about. I am not forging anything from myself, I speak everything with references from the scriptures.So, i am not using any technique to avoid something. I am only answering honestly and to the best of my knowledge and ability. You are welcome if you have any objective questions.

 

Being that my husband is muslim, he has stated in no uncertain terms what sort of afterlife befalls the kafirs

 

I think your husband is, most respectfully, somewhat ignorant to the real teachings of Quran. I repeat do not see what the people say, see what the scripture says.In my reply to Jubliant, i have written the Quranic definition of a non-believer, let i repeat it to make it more clear to you.

 

Kafir means a person who speaks lie. The one who hides the truth with the falsehood. Such person is called a kafir. Moreover, it is translated as a disbeliever means a person who denies the acceptance of divine-laws and commandments. It is not used for any specific group of people or for any specific religion, nation, race or culture. Whoever be he/she a muslim, atheist or non-muslim if he/she violates or breaches the laws of God, such person is an unbeliever or kafir.Now the question arises, what are the laws of God. Laws of God are the laws which are revealed in the holy books for the people. Most of them are universal however some of them are specific for some particular nation or era. Again I repeat, if u say that i dont care any such laws but yet, you dont rob, you dont kill innocent, you dont commit adultery or you dont irritate others... yet you actually are obeying the laws and thus are not a disbeliever. Disbelieving starts from the time when you disobey a command and commit unjustice with your fellow beings. In the same thread, you may find the cocerned Quranic verses also.

 

Hmmmm, it almost appears that this person is using taquiyya in order to fish for converts on this board...NOT!

 

I have already stated my intent many a times that i am not here to convert any person. I just wish that they should return to their religions whatever they had or remain an atheist but should refine their religious teachings or their personal cocnepts in the light of Quran, the true word of God OR if they wish they can embrace Islam. Its all upto their own wish.No compulsion...NOT!

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Dear Golden Meadows;

 

GM: In 4:171 these seem to be two possibilities for the trinity because of an ambiguity in the text:

 

Although my previous reply was quite long and well-researched one, i think we need some more understanding of the topic. Let me write the concerned verse again but, let i tell you one may find a variety of translations regarding Quran, so let we take the best authentic translation as issued by the Ministry of Islamic Affairs of Saudi Arabia. It says:

 

[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son,.....................

 

In the above cited verse, the possible members of trinity, according to their order in verse, could be;

 

1. Son + Mary + Father (Allah) = Isa + Marium + Allah (wordings according to verse)

 

2. Father + Holy Spirit (word)+ Mary = His + Word + Marium

 

3. Son + Father + Holy Spirit = Messiah, Isa son of Marium + Allah + Word

 

If we just try to make all other possible sets of trinity from the verse, disreagrding the order, then we get following sets;

 

1. Father + Sons (apostles) + Mary

 

2. Sons + Mary + Holy Spirit

 

3. Father + Holy Spirit + Sons

 

4. Son (son of god, a spirit) + Sons + Son (son of Mary)

 

5. and many ++++++++

 

You can easily notice that actually all possible forms of a christian trinity, be it of any sect or cult, are actually hidden in the verse and with just a little more consideration, one can figure out them easily. You may object that "Holy Spirit" is not mentioned in the verse. Well, the verse has used the phrase" His word which He communicated". We very well know that Holy Spirit or Gabriel is the only angel who performed the duty of ( communicating)messaging between God and earthlings. And in many places Quran has attributed Gabriel, the Holy Spirit as the one who delivers the words of God. Even if u dont accpet this, then we still have a last option, the word spirit itself. It can be taken as a synonym to Holy Spirit which actually should not be the case.

 

As a matter of fact, actually Quran condemns all forms of trinity and in its address to trinity, does not explicitly mentions the members, rather mentions the concept and this thing is in no way contradictory to the omniscience of the God. As we know time is kept on changing thus the beleifs of the past are not exactly the similar beliefs in present and the beliefs of present will not exactly be the similar beliefs in future; Thus it becomes evident that if an Omniscient God would have explicitly mentioned the members of trinity, it would have been restricted to the concept of trinity for that period only, be it in past or present, but, God has exhausted all the possibilities of trinity and its members in the concerned verses. It would be interesting to know that Hindus also have a concept of cosmic trinity of gods whose members are Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the sustainer & Shiva, the destroyer. Now Hindus could also ask that why did not God mention the members explicitly? It was because of the diversity of cultures and era that God only explicitly mentioned the concept of Trinity, which is a common one but nowhere He has told the names of the members. So, it does prove in this case that God is indeed an omniscient entity and Quran appears to be its true-word.

 

As for Mary, the God has stressed that people should not worship Jesus and Mary and should not take them gods beside Allah. In this case, we can clearly understand that according to early christians , Mary was concieved as the Mother of Jesus, the Son God. This was a very potential designation for a person to be called as Mother of God, as it is recited in Hail O`Mary. Common people and especially females, could easily think that as Mary is the Mother of God so she is potentially more Important then the Son as she is the one who has begotten him, thus it could cause the worship of Mary and indeed it happened the same way and as u told, still in practice now a days. Thats why, Quran has explicitly mentioned that Neither Jesus nor Mary should be regarded as God in any sense, rather God is alone and not three. Now three in any concept be it Son, Father and Mother OR Son, Father & Holy Spirit OR Son, Holy spirit and Mary OR Mary, Holy spirit and Father whatever......... The concerned verses have sufficiently exhausted all the potential members of christian trinity as well as any other members of any other trinity by just rejecting the very concept of trinity. Is it clear to you now???

 

do you mean that those who go to hell are punished but then destroyed without any further pain to them at some point?

 

No human beings would every be made non-existent. Those who would go to hell, after bearing the punishments would one day enter into the lowest-levels of Eden, the kingdom of Heaven out of mercy and compassion of God, not out of the result of their deeds. In it, there are many points hidden. For example, God would probably forgive all the Sins but if a person has harmed another person by either killing a man or his progeny or has caused him damadge or has made him to suffer in the world then unless that particular person would not forgive, God shall also not forgive so; in this case the sinner will have to pursuade the victim to forgive him and God shall offer the victim a choice of either forgive and get more higher designations in Heaven or not forgive at all; if he would forgive and most probably, the victim would forgive the sinner and so the God will also and would make that sinner to enter the lowest-level of Heavens. But, this should not be taken as a ticket to do sins that one day we shall enter heaven. One should remember that might be the victim would refuse to forgive the sinner or might be the punishment would prolong for a more longer time-period, thats why this concept is not generally introudced to the general people as many of them can use it as a ticket for their sins, in their hearts.

 

[P.S] I skipped your question regarding God and imperfect nature of human being intentionally, as i have prepared very detailed replies with research for your other questions in this post. I would probably make reply for that question in my very next post.

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Dear Hansolo;

 

Then I don't need God. Because I'm a good person, obeying the law of the land, and taking care of my family, and show them love and respect (probably more than most religious people).

 

Yes, you dont need that model of God which you have just shattered. Indeed, if you would continue to remain an atheist but remain committed to obey the laws and take care of your family and show respect and love to not them only but all other human beings also then surely you will get a good place in the gardens of Eden. However, you should be careful that If a law of the land would be contradictory to the law of the nature/God, then its following would not bring any good for you.

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Dear Varokhar;

 

And yes, it seems like this guy is just trying sneaky tricks to win converts

 

Not at all. It is not my intention to play tricks. One should not doubt my sincerity, please.

 

Funny that he didn't respond one word to my initial post above

 

Well, I try my level best to reply everyone whoever Directly asks me any question. As in your 2nd last post, you only made some comments about me and Islam but you clearly did not ask any specific question Therefore, I kindly request you to clearly ask your question with an example also, so i would be in better position to make a response.

-----------------------

 

Regards for every one

A Well Wisher

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Dear Hansolo;

 

Then I don't need God. Because I'm a good person, obeying the law of the land, and taking care of my family, and show them love and respect (probably more than most religious people).

 

Yes, you dont need that model of God which you have just shattered. Indeed, if you would continue to remain an atheist but remain committed to obey the laws and take care of your family and show respect and love to not them only but all other human beings also then surely you will get a good place in the gardens of Eden. However, you should be careful that If a law of the land would be contradictory to the law of the nature/God, then its following would not bring any good for you.

And you should be careful not to follow a law that you think is from God, but isn't. You can be fooled. The same way you can say and think that I could be fooled, that also goes for you. And you put your trust in a book someone else wrote and put together and claims to be the word of God. But you only know so if your inner being witness to it, and it probably does to you, but it doesn't to me, so to me your Holy Book is not a book from God, but a false testament from a sect of power hungry people way back in history. If God did exist, he would not limit himself to a few thousand pages of explanations of who he is. Not even a trillion x trillion x trillion books could contain Gods will and thoughts, and yet every frigging religion believe a little book is the only one that contains Gods pure and full will. That's utter stupidity and childish thoughts.

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Dear Hansolo;

 

Then I don't need God. Because I'm a good person, obeying the law of the land, and taking care of my family, and show them love and respect (probably more than most religious people).

 

Yes, you dont need that model of God which you have just shattered. Indeed, if you would continue to remain an atheist but remain committed to obey the laws and take care of your family and show respect and love to not them only but all other human beings also then surely you will get a good place in the gardens of Eden. However, you should be careful that If a law of the land would be contradictory to the law of the nature/God, then its following would not bring any good for you.

You missed my first question in my last post so I'll ask it now. You say here make sure the law of the land doesn't contradict the laws of nature/god. You said the law of nature of God is the following
All the Natural, Biological, Chemical, Physical and Quantum physical laws of Universe are God's Laws. Besides, the Moral laws and code of conduct as revealed in the scriptures are also God's laws provided, the scripture is free of human-corruption.

Now my question is which scripture is free of human-corruption? Many claim to have words from a divinely inspired being that tell you the way you should act.

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Ommniscient:

[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son,.....................

GM: If the above translation is the most accurate English version then I agree its not possible to know exactly from the passage what the koran thinks is the Christian Trinity; however in 5:116, even though the word Trinity is not explicitly mentioned, the worship of Jesus and Mary as Gods is condemned in the context of only Allah being God.

 

[5:116] "God shall say - 'O Jesus, son of Mary: hast thou said unto mankind, "Take me and my mother as two Gods, besides God"?' He shall say - 'Glory be to Thee! it is not for me to say that which I know not to be the truth;,"

 

I therefore think it reasonable to conclude that the ambiguity of 4:171 is now cleared up, i.e the Koran thinks the Christian Trinity is Allah (=God the Father) + Jesus + Mary Mother of Jesus and that has never been the case with any Church that claims apostolic descent. At face value the Koran shows a human dimension rather than an exclusively divine authorship.

 

You suggest that Allah was not more explicit in defining the Trinity because it could have been subject to change through the ages but the evidence shows otherwise with the Church's founded on the apostles, who approved the bible. In Mathew 28:19, on which the Christian doctrine of Trinity is founded, it explicitly states Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and those same apostolic church's teach exactly the same today. If God was the exclusive author of the Koran he would have known that and not suggested otherwise.

 

You got on to speculate that another reason for God not being explicit in defining Trinity is because he wanted to include other non Christian religions with their Gods. This does not seem reasonable, for if this was the case he could have mentioned the names of other Gods or even just have left it "gods" with no names and this would have covered everything. But he doesn't do that, instead he makes it clear its Christians he is talking about by naming Mary and Jesus and nobody else.

 

My conclusions: The Koran like the Bible may have God at work in it like other religions but its not Gods inerrant and infallible word from start to finish. Like the bible it contains things which are very much the work of man and not God.

 

This is probably a good thing. The Muslim, Christian and Jewish fanatics who would blow up the world for the sake of their "God" invariably are people who do not live by the spirit but by a rule book. Rather than live by love they live by rigid commandments, rules and regulations. Because they think they know Gods exact word they become very, very rigid and do not want to listen to other people, instead they want to force their "divinely" sanctioned opinion on everyone else.

 

BTW you work and research in answering my questions is highly appreciated.

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Oh, I have to ask you The Omniscient, is Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the probability theories of quantum mechanics also God's law?

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Dear Fweethawt;

 

Both religions supply verses telling the believer to go out and kill people that don't believe the same way that they do.

 

Well, i would like to listen to your claim with references from the scriptures of both religions. I would make it clear that do not see what the people say, see what the scriptures say. I reserve my further comments till the time you would come up with some references. Thank You.

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Look, it wouldn't matter if I referenced those verses and tattooed them to the insides of your eyelids so that you could read them forever. You would simply state that I was taking the verses out of context because that's what "apologists" do when they're shown facts. They just dance around all evidence until they feel as though they've won the debate.

 

I know that the verses are there. You know that the verses are there. You began your dance the moment you replied to my post.

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Dear Antlerman;

 

Is the Quran the actual words of Mohammad? Exactly what is the oldest surviving manuscript?

 

Well, if you have read the rest of the thread, somewhere i have posted the links refarding such information. I would like to visit them and then if u find anything unacceptable, you could ask me with references so i shall answer you appropriately. I would appreciate your cooperation in this regard.

I've looked through your posts twice in this thread and have failed to find your referencing anything regarding this. Perhaps you could post the link again? But I will say that I do know that Islamic scholars do not hold true that the oldest manuscripts were directly Mohammed’s, and that what I said was true, that the earliest existing manuscript is 150 years after Mohammed, and that previous versions were deliberately burned. So much for checking what you have against other versions for accuracy. :( To me, this speaks clearly of inconsistency and inaccuracy.

 

Actually, don't bother offering the link. I have spent vast amounts of time understanding Christianity and it's origins, and seeing how the Koran just accepts mythology as history like the Bible it pretty much negates it from the word go.

 

I respect Islam as a major religion, but don't bother trying to convince me it is true where others are false. If Judaism and Christianity have failed to be affirmed as historically sound, then Islam is just chapter 3 of mythology being believed by the faithful as factual history. Thanks anyway.

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Dear Golden Meadows;

 

However in 5:116, even though the word Trinity is not explicitly mentioned, the worship of Jesus and Mary as Gods is condemned in the context of only Allah being God.

 

Although you have presented your conclusion but I think we still need to address the issue. Let’s see the revelation order. The verse in chapter 4 was revealed as 92nd however, the verse is chapter 5 was revealed as 112th surrah. So, the former verse takes precedence over the concept of trinity then the latter one.

 

As i have already very greatly analyzed the verse of chapter 4, now lets see what the verse in chapter 5 says. The standard translation of the verse says;

 

116. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah? " He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

 

Nowhere in the verse the word "2" has been used. You have cited a translation which is not authentic. Kindly, next time whenever u read Quran's translation please cite the authentic translation as published by the Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Saudi Arabia. Here is the link for your help; http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTarg...l=eng&t=eng

 

I have researched the whole Arabic text of the verse and nowhere I found the Arabic words [ Isnat`an] which means two. So the first thing we need to clear is this that the text does not say 2 explicitly, which again means a denial of concept of trinity in this verse. A close study of the translation would tell that this verse is not dealing with the concept of trinity, rather it deals with the concept of idolatry. That, in this verse the worship of either Jesus or Marry is told to be forbidden and based upon falsehood. The concept of trinity was again discussed actually in 5:73 where God says: [73] They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Again, the mentioning of the members of the trinity is absent. Only one member that is God, Allah or Father is mentioned. All other members are not mentioned. The same word "Desist" is used in both the verses dealing with trinity but no such word is used in the verse dealing with idolatry. Thus, it becomes clear that the verse 116 of chapter 5 does not deal with the concept of trinity but it deals with the pagan concept of idolatry. As, you also know and i also know that the idols of both Jesus and Marry can be found anywhere either in the eastern cultures or in the western cultures which motivates an idolater to worship either or both of them. Dear fellow, i require you to honestly read the explanations and do not be hast in your conclusions. As for the alleged violence in the Quran, i have given a comprehensive reply to Juliant which would be of help for you as well. I again repeat, please read it with neutral and rational mindset. I do not ask you to convert into any religion, rather i ask you to see the probability of Quran being the divine book and ultimate guidance.

 

Like the bible it contains things which are very much the work of man and not God.

 

Well, i would like you to review your statement. If you are interested, we can make a separate debate to see whether Quran is the word of God or not? In the light of modern established facts of science, authentic world history and some ancient prophecies. I would be delighted to have a just reply from yourside.

 

-----------------

P.s: As for other fellows, i would reply shortly.

 

Regards

A well wisher

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P.s: As for other fellows, i would reply shortly.
Take your time. It isn't like you're going to tell us something that we haven't already heard before.
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P.s: As for other fellows, i would reply shortly.
Take your time. It isn't like you're going to tell us something that we haven't already heard before.

 

A familiar refrain, aye?

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Omniscient,

 

The translation I have is by Abdullah Yasuf Ali. It waspublished in the 1930's and it claims to be the most faithful rendering in English. I am not in a position to evaluate this so I will take your translation:

 

 

116. "And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah? " He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden."

 

Its clear Allah is condemning any talk of Jesus or the mother of Jesus as being Gods like him, i.e God Allah, "God" Jesus and "God" Mary => 1+1+1 = 3 => Trinity.

 

 

p.s the point you made about the order of the surah's verses doesn't seem to make any significant difference to the conclusion I came to, i.e the most obvious and unstrained interpretation of the passages is the one I gave, i.e the Koran description of the Christian trinity reveals a human rather than a divine understanding.

 

I appreciate your offer of examining the rest of the Koran to determine if its the Word of God but from my point of view if there is just one passage that shows human frailty in understanding then that is sufficient. I can accept that God is indeed present in any truths the Koran teaches but not the exact Word of God from start to finish. As I mentioned in my previous post rigid belief in ANY book as being the exact word of God will, IMO, tend to result in religious fanaticism, intolerance, hatred, violence and war by the nature of its divisive and arrogant assumptions. I obviously am not suggesting this applies to you in anyway.

 

 

p.s you mentioned the "precedence" of verses/surah's but I undestood the Koran as we have it is not in chronological order. Is this correct and how does one know what is the true order?

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Dear Hansolo;

 

But you only know so if your inner being witness to it, and it probably does to you, but it doesn't to me, so to me your Holy Book is not a book from God, but a false testament from a sect of power hungry people way back in history.

 

Well, i give you a same offer as i gave to Golden Meadows, kindly if you think that you are right in making your above stated conclusion, and then please allow me to initiate a debate with you. I assure you that if in the debate it would be proven that Quran is not the word of God, I shall immediately withdraw my all claims. On the contrary, if it would be proven then you will have to withdraw your conclusion. If you are on the truth, you need not to fear and If I m wrong, then i better be told.

 

If God did exist, he would not limit himself to a few thousand pages of explanations of who he is. Not even a trillion x trillion x trillion books could contain Gods will and thoughts, and yet every frigging religion believe a little book is the only one that contains Gods pure and full will. That's utter stupidity and childish thoughts.

 

Well, I do agree that any book containing a few pages can not explain God; similarly any book with zillions of pages also can not explain God. God is an incomprehensible reality which can be felt but not be told. I would like to present the following verse of Quran which underpins your viewpoint;

 

[31:27] And if all the trees on earth were pens and the Ocean (were ink), with seven Oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the Words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing): for Allah is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.

 

is Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the probability theories of quantum mechanics also God's law?

 

Certainly, all the established and tested laws of nature are indeed the laws of God. The above cited principle is very much the law of God but as for theories, i reserve my comments. by the way, the Quantum observer effect is also indeed the law of God.

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Dear Taylork45;

 

which scripture is free of human-corruption? Many claim to have words from a divinely inspired being that tell you the way you should act.

 

Well, on the base of my comprehensive research which started from Old testament and ended on Vedas; on the base of my scientific analysis and on the base of my observations, i have found the Quran as the most accurate, uncorrupted and true word of God. For its defense, i can participate in any debate or any falsification tests.

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Dear Golden Meadows;

 

Its clear Allah is condemning any talk of Jesus or the mother of Jesus as being Gods like him, i.e God Allah, "God" Jesus and "God" Mary => 1+1+1 = 3 => Trinity.

 

Well, so you are stating that wherever three deities would be narrated, it would always mean a Trinity? or potentially a Christian trinity? Before, i make any further response, i would like you to consider the fact that there is a certain verse in Quran which condemns the worship of three pagan goddesses and the names of them are explicitly used. Would it then also be considered as some form of Christian trinity? I hope it would not be the case. Similarly, the verse 116 of chapter 5 does not deal with trinity at all but the idolatry of Jesus and Mary.

 

In order to understand my above stated statement, let we have a look again that what does the first part of said verse says:

 

[5:116] And behold! Allah will say: "O 'Isa the son of Maryam! didst thou say unto men, 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?"

 

Well, the verse has not mentioned explicitly the word trinity or three as you and I already agreed. Further in this verse, the word "Derogation" has been used. According to the Cambridge dictionary, derogation means:

 

derogation no pl 1. lessening menosprecio m 2. abolition abolición f adjective:derogatory

showing strong disapproval and not showing respect[/i]

 

All the meanings of the word strongly suggest that derogation means to lessen or a communication that belittles somebody or something. Before I proceed, let we see what the official Christian concept of trinity is;

 

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XV

trinity.jpg

 

Well, it is very clear now that members of trinity are co-eternal and co-equal. Does this concept relates with what is presented in verse 116 of chapter 5. It says "in derogation of God" which explicitly means that lessening the authority and role of God(father) and increasing the role of Mary and Jesus. Thus it is very clear and open that no trinity concept is actually narrated, rather; the idolatry of Jesus & Marry as gods is narrated. Now kindly consider the following extracts on worship & idolatry of Mary and Jesus;

 

The Mary:

 

In Roman Catholic countries the images of the Virgin are loaded with costly offerings, as if they had power to grant help; the poor may go unfed, the naked unclothed, but the statue of Mary is enriched by the most costly offerings. In some of the churches in Spain, millions of dollars are lying in the lap of the so-called Virgin. Mary is exalted at the expense of the worship of Christ.

 

Now, please read this quotation from a little book I have before me. The title is “The Glories of Mary” and the author is St Alphonsus Liguori. He says:

 

The whole Trinity, O Mary, gave you a name above every name, after that of your Divine Son, so that in your name every knee should bend, of things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.

 

That is what the church teaches. And by its own admission, Christians are being called to worship a creature, which is idolatry.

 

As we would expect, we do not find explicit statements in Catholic literature that we should worship Mary. Yet, in practice, the Catholic attitude towards Mary amounts to worship. Catholics worship Mary because they pray to her, kneel before her image, trust in her for salvation and attribute to her titles and honours which belong to God alone. May God grant them repentance. Rather than looking unto a creature, we should follow Mary in her godly example and apply ourselves to the Lord for salvation and all spiritual blessings.

 

In the "Glories of Mary," page 200, it is stated that "those who cannot be saved by Christ, are saved by Mary." "No one is saved but through Thee." page 135, "Glories of Mary."

 

The origin of this idolatry had its root in ancient mythology. Astarte of the Assyrians, Ashtoreth of the Sidonians and Bowaney of the Hindoos held the place that Mary occupies in the church of Rome.

 

You may find this link very helpful. [urlhttp://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/bowing_to_mary_is_a_sin.htm[/url]

 

The Jesus:

 

I think i dont need to make any research for it as the worship and imaging of Jesus is something almost universal and is in hand to hand with the idols of Mary.

 

And the last thing about today's Christian trinity;

 

Is the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity obsolete?

Yes. "God in three persons, Blessed Trinity" is an outdated and inaccurate statement of the nature of God.

(a) The meaning of the word "person" has changed.

( B) Our understanding of relationships has changed.

© Our understanding of the "substance" of which God is composed has changed.

(d) The divine self-revelation has continued.

(e) The theological problems the Doctrine was intended to solve are no longer of prime concern.

 

All this is well-understood by theologians, but has not yet permeated down to the broad mass of Christians. Many still feel that "belief in the Trinity" is required - but, when pressed, no one is able to explain the Doctrine! It has been called a "strict mystery" (in "My Catholic Faith") - a hidden truth that is still hidden even after it has been revealed!

Source: http://www.abcog.org/trinity.htm

 

Dear fellow, if u read Quran, you may find that whenever it addresses the concept of trinity, it remains silent about the members but whenever it addresses the issue of idolatry and forbids the worship of any particular deity/person it explicitly mentions its name . I think that you did not consider this fact of Quranic studies.

 

The Final Conclusion:

 

As this debate has been prolonged, in order to conclude it i am presenting my final conclusion.

 

In the light of all available articles, holy writings and authentic history it is very clear that the verse 116 of chapter 5 of Quran does not address the holy trinity of Christians rather it only addresses the concept of idolatry of Jesus and Mary and condemns the worship of Jesus or Mary or both.

 

Still, if you have any questions or alternate viewpoints, i am open to seek further but i am sure that all possible subjects of this verse have been discussed by us.

 

p.s you mentioned the "precedence" of verses/surah's but I undestood the Koran as we have it is not in chronological order. Is this correct and how does one know what is the true order?

 

Well, both chronological and current order of the chapters is preserved, you may find the following table in the link helpful to know about it.

http://www.submission.org/Q-T.html

------------------------

 

Regards for everyone

A Well Wisher

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Dear Hansolo;

 

But you only know so if your inner being witness to it, and it probably does to you, but it doesn't to me, so to me your Holy Book is not a book from God, but a false testament from a sect of power hungry people way back in history.

 

Well, i give you a same offer as i gave to Golden Meadows, kindly if you think that you are right in making your above stated conclusion, and then please allow me to initiate a debate with you. I assure you that if in the debate it would be proven that Quran is not the word of God, I shall immediately withdraw my all claims. On the contrary, if it would be proven then you will have to withdraw your conclusion. If you are on the truth, you need not to fear and If I m wrong, then i better be told.

I appreciate you cordial and polite attitude in your responses. You show a great integrity in what you believe. I will take into consideration your proposed debate, but I think we have to start the debate with "Does God exist" before we even can establish if there exists a book with words from this God. And if God exists, we have to establish what kind of God is, which one of polytheism, pantheism or monotheism are the true ones. So I'll think about this, and maybe I'll come back to you to debate "Gods Existence" first, and if we can establish that God exists, and what kind, then we'll have the debate if the Quran is the True Word of this God.

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Omniscient,

 

The surah dealing with the Goddess's 53:19-23 cannot refer to the xtian Trinity for the very obvious reason that they are all female. No matter what confusion there may have been surrounding the writing of the Koran with respect to the individual members of the xtian trinity it is clear that God the Father was always going to be number 1, Jesus was going to be number 2 and either the Holy Spirit or Mary was going to be number 3. When I read the passage there was no way I felt this was an attempt to indicate the xtian Trinity. The Koran goes on to say that they are names only, i.e they don't exist so this makes it doubly clear that there is no intention to mean the xtian Trinity.

 

To summarise: surah 4:171 raises the subject of the xtian trinity, however because the text is highly ambiguous we don't know for certain the three persons who make it up except that they are xtian targets and not pagan. In surah 5:116 the Koran deals with "false" worship of xtian gods, i.e not pagan, whom we also know from 4:171 form part of Trinity. The names the Koran gives are Jesus, Mary and Allah. The balance of probabilty is, IMO, heavily pointed towards the Koran being in error, i.e it repeats the mistaken understanding of fringe groups in that area at that time and seems oblivious of what the apostolic church's, i.e those who approved the bible and defined the doctrine of the Trinity, actually taught.

 

I appreciate the good intentions in all the other material you supply regarding Trinity but please remember I am no longer a xtian and I have no interest in arguing the case for xtianity I am only interested in finding out about the claims of the Koran to being Gods exact word. Like I said before I can accept whatever is true in the Koran as being a reflection of God, just like I do the bible or any other holy scriptures.

 

Unless you have fresh material from the Quaran to discuss then I think, like you, that we have exhausted this Trinity subject. I would now like , with your permission, turn out attention to another issue in the Quaran. Which son according to the Quaran did Abraham try to sacrifice?

 

 

 

p.s I also share in Hansolo praise of your manner in this dialogue.

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Dear Taylork45;

 

which scripture is free of human-corruption? Many claim to have words from a divinely inspired being that tell you the way you should act.

 

Well, on the base of my comprehensive research which started from Old testament and ended on Vedas; on the base of my scientific analysis and on the base of my observations, i have found the Quran as the most accurate, uncorrupted and true word of God. For its defense, i can participate in any debate or any falsification tests.

So the only scripture that is truely free of corruption is the Quran. Everything other than the Quran could cause you to violate it's laws and commands. But you said.

 

Well, the only requirements are to believe on one-true God, have faith on the day of judgement and the performance of good deeds. If you observe this and remains a xian, jew or whatever, you surely are a successful person, according to Quran.

How can you say it's okay to be in another religion when you are not following laws that are potentially corrupted and contradict the quran? According to you the book with the laws of God are the Quran then you said

 

If the person has not followed the commands of God and has not obeyed his laws and in the result , made trouble for other humanbeings by either his actions or his Intent; such person is subjected to the divine-punishment.

 

So basically, according to you, the commands of God are in the Quran and not obeying them is going to lead you to divine punishment. All other religions don't follow the commands of your god Allah so you statement about it being okay to be another religion seem contradictory.

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A religion that causes confusion is bad.

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Well, on the base of my comprehensive research which started from Old testament and ended on Vedas;

Congrats on reading all four vedas. I really doubt you did but good job anyway

 

on the base of my scientific analysis and on the base of my observations, i have found the Quran as the most accurate, uncorrupted and true word of God. For its defense, i can participate in any debate or any falsification tests.
What scientific analysis did you do?
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TO...

 

Someday when the last shot in the Religious Wars is used to finally silence the infernal voice of the jihadis of all stripe, then you answering *questions* will be moot.

 

I've seen first hand what the Islamics do to their young, their women, and those not_of_their_exact_faith.

 

I'll not allow you and your stripe to exert control or influence in meat.space over me, mine, my extended loved ones, even the guys down at the tavern I frequent.

 

When it comes to your "loving.religion" I reject it, your piss poor attempt to sugar coat it and its control over me and mine.

 

I will learn to "fire for effect" at longer ranges and with much more accuracy to keep you and your AkM and explosive laden religon.of.peices far and away from here.

 

Heard everything the Imans have to say. Oft sat at tables in places where the *good people* gave me a decent table and the full run of their homes.

 

The only question I have for you TO is simply this. "You ready to make the ultimate commitment to Allah?"

 

kevinL

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