LosingMyReligion Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I was watching TBN oneday when I heard this really weird preacher(he is fat, wears spectacles, and is particularly brazen about telling everyone they're gonna rot in hell...) lamenting upon how God loves and favors the Jewish people and etc..etc... Which got me to wondering...When did Jewish people become exempt from burning in hell? It seems like, lately, evangelical christians are trying to align themselves with Jews. But when i was growing up(which wasn't that long ago)I was always taught that Jews were going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus(except for Jews for Jesus)... So are Jews going to hell or not? Why are fundies siding with them all of a sudden? Because this very pastor in question says anyone who does not believe in Jesus is destined for hell. However, I know a Jewish lady(she's a friend of my mother) who says she does not believe in satan or hell or Jesus for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light_of_Reason Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I think it may have something to do with the fundamentalists and evangelicals wanting to become bosom buddies with Jews so that they can then use Israel to bring about the end times, which is another cornerstone of their televangelism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JP Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I think it may have something to do with the fundamentalists and evangelicals wanting to become bosom buddies with Jews so that they can then use Israel to bring about the end times, which is another cornerstone of their televangelism. Exactly. Jews are part of the prophecy concering Israel. They still believe they're going to Hell because they haven't accepted Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosingMyReligion Posted July 18, 2006 Author Share Posted July 18, 2006 I think it may have something to do with the fundamentalists and evangelicals wanting to become bosom buddies with Jews so that they can then use Israel to bring about the end times, which is another cornerstone of their televangelism. Exactly. Jews are part of the prophecy concering Israel. They still believe they're going to Hell because they haven't accepted Christ. I thought so. I guess they are trying to facilitate the rapture themselves...But, on the flip side, Christians are always talking about, "No one knows when Jesus is coming..." So which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I'm pretty sure that's Falwell you're talking about. I seen a thing with him on BET where he's trying to get money to send the Jews back to their homeland of Israel. I believe these morons are trying to hasten the fulfillment of some biblical prophesy or other. Jackasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I seem to remember that Hal Lindsey was the Christian Popularizer of Jews and Israel in "The Late Great Planet Earth"(1970) a book that picked 1981 for the rapture. Oops But I don't have any emperical evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wideawake42 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 When I was a Christian, I always thought Jews were saved. I thought Jews were saved by default, and Christians were saved because God felt bad for all the people who weren't Jews, so he sent Jesus to the Gentiles. I had various biblical reasons - but I don't feel like getting out my Bible and picking them all out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaoi Huntress Earth Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 It reminds me of this fundy I use to work with who said that the Jews "deserved" the Holocost because they "rejected Jesus" a few years ago. I wonder if she's changed her tune now with all this End of Times Mania (she was a big-time 700 Club member.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I was taught Jews were going to hell. But then, so were Catholics and most of humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 When I was a Christian, I always thought Jews were saved. I thought Jews were saved by default, and Christians were saved because God felt bad for all the people who weren't Jews, so he sent Jesus to the Gentiles. I had various biblical reasons - but I don't feel like getting out my Bible and picking them all out. Now that you bring that up, I recall thinking the same thing when I was little. I have no clue why, it must just have been the way jews were described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunk Bishop Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 i gotta tell you about my grandfather! He was an indepented Baptist fundie who did a short weekly Gospel radio show during the 70's and 80's back in my home state of South Carolina. He ran an independent missionary organization (in South Carolina!!!) called "Christian Friends of Israel" and his goal was to convert Jews. He attended the local synagogue and talked often with the rabbi, always working the Jebus. He wore a star of David around his neck and had a tag on the front of his car that said "Shalom." He taught himself alot of Biblical Hebrew, but from spurious sources. Judaica all in the house. He fully supported the politics of Israel. A Jew-obsessed man. So I was taught from birth that Jews were "God's chosen" but they needed to be shown how to be "fulfilled." Family Tree: My Dad is fed up with church, hasn't gone in 10 yrs and is philo-Semitic... thinks the Hebrew Bible and the archaeology stuff is fascinating in a sacred way. One uncle is a Baptist fundamentalist. The other uncle is a "Messianic Jew" married to a pentecostal. I converted to Judaism, but I practice Reform and consider myself a fully-fledged member of the Enlightenment. As far as fundie Christian love for Israel goes, it's predominantly an English civilization thing (because "Christian Fundamentalism is mostly an English thing, too). When Cromwell overthrew the monarchy, he allowed Jews to return to England. A large Jewish poplulation developed in London, and Jews were a part of the public square. In 1701, the Anglican church started the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts and in 1809 they started the "Ministry to the Jews." They translated the New Testament into Hebrew and shipped them wholesale to Russia. SPGJ was the first movement which ever tried to "reason" with the Jews religiously. The fundies arose in England around the same time and also took the to the task of converting Jews, since they were becoming so prominent in 18th century England... although anti-Semitism was still real in England and America before WW2 (T.S. Eliot and Charles A. Lindbergh, for instance) And then the Holocaust caused most of the mainline churches drop anti-Semitism. Israeli statehood resurrected Evangelical eschatological hopes. Fundies Love Israel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage Nabooru Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 It's nice to know that the same people touting the Jews as their key to the Rapture and Apocalypse are the same folks whom George Bush considers great advisers. Correlation between this and Bush's blind drooling support of any move Israel makes, anyone? In Lutheranism there was a whole movement to convert the Jews. Disgusting, really. These people have been through enough bullshit already in their history, do we really need to give them more in the name of "Jesus loves you but he'll send you to hell, you poor misdirected people"? They would get really dirty about it too. You've probably read some accounts of how fundies try to coerce the Jews to join their ranks - by opening "Jewish relief centers" and organizing "Shabbat" parties. It's very similar to the Mormon practice of opening Mormon indoctrination classes in the guise of "English language schools" in the Far East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lola Getz Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 It's nice to know that the same people touting the Jews as their key to the Rapture and Apocalypse are the same folks whom George Bush considers great advisers. Correlation between this and Bush's blind drooling support of any move Israel makes, anyone? Yes, it scares the crap out of me that American foreign policy is now driven by people who would happily manipulate events in the Middle East according to their religious beliefs in an attempt to hasten the end of the world. I don't think people in other countries outside America (I'm in the UK) are truly aware that American foreign policy is now coming from the bible. Crunk, what you said was very interesting. I was raised a Christian in Georgia, but discovered about five years ago that some of my ancestors were Jews in London in the late 17th century who emigrated to Virginia. Somewhere along the way they converted to Christianity and your post now makes me wonder if it happened while they were still in England (it's sort of ironic that I went full circle and now live in England myself). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunk Bishop Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 I used to suspect that very thing, that the Western powers were setting up Israel and the Jews to be the apocalyptic patsy to bring about the end of the world.... But the more I think of it historically... it makes good political sense to want to be able to control that little strip of land. For intel purposes... it's right smack in the middle of everybody. From Israel, you could monitor chatter all over the map. Israel is a great place to refuel your planes. Alot of international trade happens there. History shows us that whoever has controlled that tiny space has pretty much ruled the roost. In short, there are real political reasons for US elites to want to support Israel for US interests... I think the religious aspect is just a way to get working class people on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Variable Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I would say views toward the Jews changed after Israel became a nation again. This is a HUGE deal to people dealing with end time prophecy. For a long time Jews were seen as a hindrance to Jesus coming back. Now the presence of Israel is a shining light to all those rapture-fever Christians. If Israel ever stopped being a nation (or relocated, ect.) it would take a major weapon of "proof" out of their arsenal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangstaknitta Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 I was watching TBN oneday when I heard this really weird preacher(he is fat, wears spectacles, and is particularly brazen about telling everyone they're gonna rot in hell...) lamenting upon how God loves and favors the Jewish people and etc..etc... How can you tell the difference...there are so many that are fat with glasses!! It was probably John Hagee. I think it depends on the church or denomination. In the immediate community where I grew up, Jews were all going to hell. But then I've met a lot of ex-C's that have told me that they were taught to respect Jews and Israel. I have found that a lot of Dispensationalists are rather jew-friendly, but only as it concerns the end times or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 On TV a few days ago I watched an interview with an Israeli diplomat (whose name I can't recall -- sorry). He was asked how Israelis tolerate being supported by and proselytized to by Christian Evangelicals whose end game is that all Jews be either converted or dead. The Israeli guy made a wry shrug of the shoulders, raising of the eyebrows, and with the slightest, slightest smile, he said, approximately, "There's no rush to clear up these religious discrepancies now. When Jesus comes to earth, we'll ask him if it's for the first or second time." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-COG Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 The church I grew up in did not teach dispensationalism, or that the Jews were still chosen or especially loved above all others, or that the state of Israel had to be reestablished before Jesus returned. They believed that God revealed himself to the Jews through the prophets(OT), Jesus came, he was rejected by the Jews because they had turned from "true religion" and followed their own hearts. Then after the resurrection, the Christian church took the place of the Jewish nation, and the gospel was spread to the gentiles. The Jews were chosen only in the sense that God selected them to initially receive the "truth", and for the Messiah to come through and save the world. "Spiritual Israel" were those who followed God, through Jesus (because that was God's plan, and a "true" Israelite would recognize this as being so, right? Yeah, ha ha). In one way, this was a freeing message, in that it emphasized that all people were equal in the eyes of God ("neither Jew not Greek, male or female..."). However, it also hijacked the religion of the Hebrews, reinterpreted it, and claimed its superiority over the parent faith. The replacement of the tribe of Israel with the Christian Church also set up the Christians with their own "chosen people" claim, and boy did (do) they act like it! I didn't hear about dispensationalism, the rapture, Christian support of the State of Israel, etc, until I was in High School. I then read up on these other teachings. I found out that many of the dispensationalists called what my denomination had taught, "displacement theology". When I returned to church as an adult, I still selected one with a similar background, but they did not make a big deal out of the displacement theory, nor did they teach the rapture or dispensationalism. Any discussion about the Jews was pretty much kept to Biblical topics; I rarely if ever heard discussion about modern day Jews or Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 I think it may have something to do with the fundamentalists and evangelicals wanting to become bosom buddies with Jews so that they can then use Israel to bring about the end times, which is another cornerstone of their televangelism. Exactly. Jews are part of the prophecy concering Israel. They still believe they're going to Hell because they haven't accepted Christ. I thought you might find the viewpoint of the Jews interesting with regards to this topic http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2/viewt...565&start=0 http://p069.ezboard.com/fmessiahtruthfrm1....icID=2418.topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Variable Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I was watching TBN oneday when I heard this really weird preacher(he is fat, wears spectacles, and is particularly brazen about telling everyone they're gonna rot in hell...) lamenting upon how God loves and favors the Jewish people and etc..etc...Which got me to wondering...When did Jewish people become exempt from burning in hell? It seems like, lately, evangelical christians are trying to align themselves with Jews. But when i was growing up(which wasn't that long ago)I was always taught that Jews were going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus(except for Jews for Jesus)... Yes, that is definately John Hagee. John Hagee also believes that Jews get automatic access to heaven, regardless of accepting Jesus as Savior, as long as they are Torah Observant. He has rabbi's on his show often, and has met the prime minister of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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