Madie Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Dear Christian, Can you please tell me why my grandma didn't get saved? She never accepted Christ as her savior. She was hostile towards Christianity. Now, I've prayed for her for years. The church prayed for her. I was good Christian--went to church everytime the doors were opened, had my devotions, and served in Sunday School. I prayed hard to the point of tears pleading for her salvation. I even fasted. Now how come God didn't asnwer? If you come up with an answer that makes sense to me, I will reconvert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Madie, is your intent to challenge one particular member/Christian on this site? The Arena is not for discussion, but for an organized and moderated debate between two members. So I will move this to the Colosseum until you have found one Christian that like to debate this topic using Arena rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madie Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 HanSolo, Looks like i haven't gotten a response yet. I would like to challenge SOIL with this question in the Arena. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I don't know if SOIL is that active anymore. KevinH seems to be extremely hot right now. Or maybe Freeday is a good candidate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 what what? soil? he hasnt been active for 5 months now... i nominate freeday too. he's like me. he's addicted to this sight and will reply with the quickness to everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madie Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 Let's bring it on. HanSolo--whomever you recommend as a strong candidate is fine with me. I gave this challenge before via e-mail and they haven't responded yet. I'm itching for an answer. I would also like to add this to the challenge. The bible says that you're not condemned to hell until you reach the age of reason--where you are able to differenciate between right and wrong. My 3 year old cousin knew between right and wrong. He knew that when he did something wrong he would get punished. He never heard the gospel message. He passed away of SIDS a couple years ago. Now, can you please tell me how god judged this child? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madie Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 Thanks RHEMtron. I'll move this over to the arena for freeday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Thanks RHEMtron. I'll move this over to the arena for freeday... lets just keep it a casual conversation, this is a difficult question to answer. i am going to bed for the day, will try and respond later tonight. rhemtron: thanks for the nomination there, i appriciate it. sorry didn't notice it sooner, i am responding to like 5 different threads right now. it's hard to keep up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madie Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 Well...It looks like no one has taken this challenge yet. I would like to challenge Amy Marie. We can talk blue in the face about topics like the resurrection, christian politics, etc...but I think it's important to discuss the root of the christian faith -- salvation --- which is also the root of my deconversion. well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madie Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 Freeday--sorry i didn't see your response. Yes, I'd like to hear from you as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Freeday--sorry i didn't see your response. Yes, I'd like to hear from you as well. i feel that all prayers are heard by God, and that all prayers are answered in a way that is in concurence with his will. now with that said, i think that we as humans all have felt disapointed by God at one time or another. i think this disappointment should encourage us not discourage us. their is a healthy way and an unhealthy way to question God and his purpose's. you have to gaurd yourself against sin and doubt. once it is implanted, it grows like yeast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Dear Christian, Can you please tell me why my grandma didn't get saved? She never accepted Christ as her savior. She was hostile towards Christianity. Now, I've prayed for her for years. The church prayed for her. I was good Christian--went to church everytime the doors were opened, had my devotions, and served in Sunday School. I prayed hard to the point of tears pleading for her salvation. I even fasted. Now how come God didn't asnwer? If you come up with an answer that makes sense to me, I will reconvert. Um, because it's YOUR salvation you worry about to get saved. Why would your pleading to God help your Grandma convert? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest From The Inside Out Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Hey Madie: Firstly, I'm sorry about your grandma and that she didn't come to faith in Christ, I can't imagine how much that must hurt you. In the beginning God created human beings with something called "free will." This meant that we can choose whether or not to love God in return and be involved in a perfect living relationship with Him. However, the first person Adam, sinned against God and when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil through his actions he was telling God that he wanted to live life without Him and that he wanted to decide truth independent for himself. Just as God did not force Himself upon Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He gives us the choice to choose to live with or without Him. Your grandma obviously exercised her God-given free will and choose to reject God. Now I can tell you that it was not God's will that your gradma reject Him because the Bible says that it is His will that all come to repentence and receive eternal life (e.g. Ezekiel 33:11). The Holy Spirit was probably at work in the life of your gradma convicting her of her need for Jesus, but she obviously hardened her heart against His promptings and resisted Him. Pride is one such reason why people resist the Holy Spirit. The danger with this sin is that every time a person resists God's Spirit, he or she makes it more difficult for him or herself to come to Christ. She may have even insulted teh Holy Spirit, which occurs when the person essentially dismisses teh great price that Jesus paid for him or her at teh cross of Calvary. The person who has insulted the Holy Spirit has refused to accept the tremendous gift of salvation that God has offered to him or her. Depending on how hardened her heart was, her resisting and insulting the Holy Spirit could have led to what is termed the "unforgivable sin": blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Since the Bible tells us that Christ is the only way of salvation, and the Holy Spirit's initial work in our life as a nonbeliever is to draw us to Christ, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to reject Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour. That is the point of no return. Every time a person resists the Spirit and insults Him, he or she gets a step closer to this ultimate sin. As I said before, God doesn't force Himself upon anyone. In fact, Revelation says that Jesus stands at the door of the heart of every person and knocks, and if they hear Him and open the door that He will come in. He is gentleman, and waits for you to want Him to come in (Revelation 3:20-21). As we harden our hearts against the Holy Spirit's promptings, it is more and more difficult for one to be saved. As much as it breaks the heart of God to see those He loves reject Him, He allows them their wish and gives them what they want - life without Him. You cannot blame God for your grandma's unbelief as God does not force Himself upon us because He gave us free will, other wise He would have made us like robots. He was at work convicting your gradma of her need for Christ, but she obviously hardened her heart against the Holy Spirit's convictions and promptings. Your grandma exercised her free will to reject God. It is my prayer that this reply answers your question and allows you think more about God. You cannot logically blame God for what has happened, but I'll leave that up for you to choose. I am praying for you; have a good day, friend. ~ From The Inside Out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 In the beginning God created human beings with something called "free will." This meant that we can choose whether or not to love God in return and be involved in a perfect living relationship with Him. However, the first person Adam, sinned against God and when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil through his actions he was telling God that he wanted to live life without Him and that he wanted to decide truth independent for himself. Just as God did not force Himself upon Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He gives us the choice to choose to live with or without Him. I'm sorry, free will cannot exist with the existence of an all-knowing God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Hey Madie: Firstly, I'm sorry about your grandma and that she didn't come to faith in Christ, I can't imagine how much that must hurt you. In the beginning God created human beings with something called "free will." This meant that we can choose whether or not to love God in return and be involved in a perfect living relationship with Him. However, the first person Adam, sinned against God and when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil through his actions he was telling God that he wanted to live life without Him and that he wanted to decide truth independent for himself. Just as God did not force Himself upon Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He gives us the choice to choose to live with or without Him. Your grandma obviously exercised her God-given free will and choose to reject God. Now I can tell you that it was not God's will that your gradma reject Him because the Bible says that it is His will that all come to repentence and receive eternal life (e.g. Ezekiel 33:11). The Holy Spirit was probably at work in the life of your gradma convicting her of her need for Jesus, but she obviously hardened her heart against His promptings and resisted Him. Pride is one such reason why people resist the Holy Spirit. The danger with this sin is that every time a person resists God's Spirit, he or she makes it more difficult for him or herself to come to Christ. She may have even insulted teh Holy Spirit, which occurs when the person essentially dismisses teh great price that Jesus paid for him or her at teh cross of Calvary. The person who has insulted the Holy Spirit has refused to accept the tremendous gift of salvation that God has offered to him or her. Depending on how hardened her heart was, her resisting and insulting the Holy Spirit could have led to what is termed the "unforgivable sin": blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Since the Bible tells us that Christ is the only way of salvation, and the Holy Spirit's initial work in our life as a nonbeliever is to draw us to Christ, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to reject Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour. That is the point of no return. Every time a person resists the Spirit and insults Him, he or she gets a step closer to this ultimate sin. As I said before, God doesn't force Himself upon anyone. In fact, Revelation says that Jesus stands at the door of the heart of every person and knocks, and if they hear Him and open the door that He will come in. He is gentleman, and waits for you to want Him to come in (Revelation 3:20-21). As we harden our hearts against the Holy Spirit's promptings, it is more and more difficult for one to be saved. As much as it breaks the heart of God to see those He loves reject Him, He allows them their wish and gives them what they want - life without Him. You cannot blame God for your grandma's unbelief as God does not force Himself upon us because He gave us free will, other wise He would have made us like robots. He was at work convicting your gradma of her need for Christ, but she obviously hardened her heart against the Holy Spirit's convictions and promptings. Your grandma exercised her free will to reject God. It is my prayer that this reply answers your question and allows you think more about God. You cannot logically blame God for what has happened, but I'll leave that up for you to choose. I am praying for you; have a good day, friend. ~ From The Inside Out. Oh my god! Is there a brain in there or only a tape that records what the church says? Isn't there some rule about preaching in the Colosseum? Where's the damn lions? How dare you come in here and insult Madie with this crap. You present yourself as something Jesus hated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Isn't there some rule about preaching in the Colosseum? Where's the damn lions? Well, it was his/her answer to Madie's request. (Even if it was a very insensitive answer.) How dare you come in here and insult Madie with this crap. You present yourself as something Jesus hated. Or the cat dragged in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Well, it was his/her answer to Madie's request. (Even if it was a very insensitive answer.) You're not a lion...you're a bunny! I'm just teasing. I guess it was an answer but it just sickened me and I didn't even read all of it! Then, my fingers took on a life of their own. I apologize... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Hmm... Okay! I'm not a Lion, but I'm a darn dangerous bunny, a killer bunny to be exact! There you have it... now I'm calm again. (Btw, my sign is Leo, and my dad's name was Lennart, from Leonard, meaning "Strong Lion".) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K9 Jake Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 I consider myself one of faith, and that response 'from the inside out' hurt MY eyes to read. I hate to play devil's advocate but here goes anyway: The thing is, I thought Gods will was always done. But at the same time it wasn't his will for her to not accept him. And if God knew her and what her decision was going to be before she was even born then why would he bother trying to convince her of his existence and ask her to let him in? Her 'free will' was already decided. And any attempt otherwise would be an act in futility. I think its a fine example you set by speculating what her sin of choice might have been (pride, or even insulting the Holy Spirit). And that each time she committed whatever sin you are going with today, it was that much more difficult to accept the Lord as her savior. How many times do you have to ask the Lord to come into your heart? Last I heard it was once. Is he going to make you ask repeatedly based on the number of sins you have committed in your life? I always understood the teachings to preach that any man/woman who asks for forgiveness shall have it. So if there is an unpardonable sin, and you commit it when you are 15 years old, should you then just say to hell with it and live a life of total sin, becasue you have no shot whatsoever of getting into heaven? I am no expert on the Bible and I don't pretend to be. I am just trying to understand where you are coming from. Maybe I am just mis-interpreting what you were trying to convey in response. It wouldn't be the first time I made a mistake. Responses like the one provided by 'from the inside out' is why I cannot accept every single verse and passage of the Bible in a literal sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 I consider myself one of faith, and that response 'from the inside out' hurt MY eyes to read. I hate to play devil's advocate but here goes anyway: The thing is, I thought Gods will was always done. But at the same time it wasn't his will for her to not accept him. And if God knew her and what her decision was going to be before she was even born then why would he bother trying to convince her of his existence and ask her to let him in? Her 'free will' was already decided. And any attempt otherwise would be an act in futility. I think its a fine example you set by speculating what her sin of choice might have been (pride, or even insulting the Holy Spirit). And that each time she committed whatever sin you are going with today, it was that much more difficult to accept the Lord as her savior. How many times do you have to ask the Lord to come into your heart? Last I heard it was once. Is he going to make you ask repeatedly based on the number of sins you have committed in your life? I always understood the teachings to preach that any man/woman who asks for forgiveness shall have it. So if there is an unpardonable sin, and you commit it when you are 15 years old, should you then just say to hell with it and live a life of total sin, becasue you have no shot whatsoever of getting into heaven? I am no expert on the Bible and I don't pretend to be. I am just trying to understand where you are coming from. Maybe I am just mis-interpreting what you were trying to convey in response. It wouldn't be the first time I made a mistake. Responses like the one provided by 'from the inside out' is why I cannot accept every single verse and passage of the Bible in a literal sense. thats to funny, i guess i am the only person who thought it was a good read. not a good answer, but i enjoyed reading it. the problem with his answer was that it proposed the reason her prayer wasn't answered, was because of the sin in her grandma's life. which in a small part did make some sense. but i didn't find it a good answer. the same theory could not be applied to say my grandfather. i prayed every night that he would live after his stroke. but he didn't. he died 2 wks afterwards. so the reason he explained could not be applied to this situation. so i didn't find it a good answer. after all, it wasn't sin that caused the hemoragic stroke. it was a rupture in the capilaries that resulted in a bleed, thus increasing the intercranial pressure until the reflex to breath is no longer there. this was not a result of sin. all i can say madie. is that i have had several prayers answered "no" or "wait," sometimes i can see why years down the road, other times i have no clue. but through it all i still have faith that the Lord does hear me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madie Posted July 22, 2006 Author Share Posted July 22, 2006 Freeday--sorry i didn't see your response. Yes, I'd like to hear from you as well. i feel that all prayers are heard by God, and that all prayers are answered in a way that is in concurence with his will. now with that said, i think that we as humans all have felt disapointed by God at one time or another. i think this disappointment should encourage us not discourage us. their is a healthy way and an unhealthy way to question God and his purpose's. you have to gaurd yourself against sin and doubt. once it is implanted, it grows like yeast. NOPE--FROM EXPERIENCE I'VE COME TO REALIZE THAT PRAYER IS NOTHING BUT A SUPERSTITION. Hey Madie: Firstly, I'm sorry about your grandma and that she didn't come to faith in Christ, I can't imagine how much that must hurt you. In the beginning God created human beings with something called "free will." This meant that we can choose whether or not to love God in return and be involved in a perfect living relationship with Him. However, the first person Adam, sinned against God and when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil through his actions he was telling God that he wanted to live life without Him and that he wanted to decide truth independent for himself. Just as God did not force Himself upon Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He gives us the choice to choose to live with or without Him. Your grandma obviously exercised her God-given free will and choose to reject God. Now I can tell you that it was not God's will that your gradma reject Him because the Bible says that it is His will that all come to repentence and receive eternal life (e.g. Ezekiel 33:11). The Holy Spirit was probably at work in the life of your gradma convicting her of her need for Jesus, but she obviously hardened her heart against His promptings and resisted Him. Pride is one such reason why people resist the Holy Spirit. The danger with this sin is that every time a person resists God's Spirit, he or she makes it more difficult for him or herself to come to Christ. She may have even insulted teh Holy Spirit, which occurs when the person essentially dismisses teh great price that Jesus paid for him or her at teh cross of Calvary. The person who has insulted the Holy Spirit has refused to accept the tremendous gift of salvation that God has offered to him or her. Depending on how hardened her heart was, her resisting and insulting the Holy Spirit could have led to what is termed the "unforgivable sin": blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Since the Bible tells us that Christ is the only way of salvation, and the Holy Spirit's initial work in our life as a nonbeliever is to draw us to Christ, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to reject Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour. That is the point of no return. Every time a person resists the Spirit and insults Him, he or she gets a step closer to this ultimate sin. As I said before, God doesn't force Himself upon anyone. In fact, Revelation says that Jesus stands at the door of the heart of every person and knocks, and if they hear Him and open the door that He will come in. He is gentleman, and waits for you to want Him to come in (Revelation 3:20-21). As we harden our hearts against the Holy Spirit's promptings, it is more and more difficult for one to be saved. As much as it breaks the heart of God to see those He loves reject Him, He allows them their wish and gives them what they want - life without Him. You cannot blame God for your grandma's unbelief as God does not force Himself upon us because He gave us free will, other wise He would have made us like robots. He was at work convicting your gradma of her need for Christ, but she obviously hardened her heart against the Holy Spirit's convictions and promptings. Your grandma exercised her free will to reject God. It is my prayer that this reply answers your question and allows you think more about God. You cannot logically blame God for what has happened, but I'll leave that up for you to choose. I am praying for you; have a good day, friend. ~ From The Inside Out. I've heard this regurgitated answer before. It just DOESN'T make sense to me!!! Why would a "loving god" condemn an overall decent human being? It's completely irrational and is nothing but a man made method of belief to get people into church. Also, think about all the millions of people who've never heard of the gospel. Now explain this to me: The catholics preach on faith plus good works = heaven. The JW's only have a select few entering heaven. The Mormons -- I don't even want to know. Now, they supposedly serve the same god so why so many ways? The only answer to this is that it's nothing but a man made method. Wouldn't it make sense that a "loving god" wouldn't cause confusion for his "children". I believe if there is a god, he created us to think for ourselves and believe in what we want. Faith is what we "reason to believe in" not a man made method of belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Freeday--sorry i didn't see your response. Yes, I'd like to hear from you as well. i feel that all prayers are heard by God, and that all prayers are answered in a way that is in concurence with his will . now with that said, i think that we as humans all have felt disapointed by God at one time or another. i think this disappointment should encourage us not discourage us. their is a healthy way and an unhealthy way to question God and his purpose's. you have to gaurd yourself against sin and doubt. once it is implanted, it grows like yeast. Your belief that he answers all prayer according to his will cannot be rectified with your belief that he allows free will. Is it god's will that Madie's grandmother die without salvation? Then all prayers cannot necessarily be answered in a way that concurs with god's will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Now explain this to me: The catholics preach on faith plus good works = heaven. The JW's only have a select few entering heaven. The Mormons -- I don't even want to know. Now, they supposedly serve the same god so why so many ways? The only answer to this is that it's nothing but a man made method. Wouldn't it make sense that a "loving god" wouldn't cause confusion for his "children". But you see Madie, these are not TRUE CHRISTIANS. You see they are decieved by Satan and only FTIO has the HS. Seems like the promise and prayer of Jesus's sending the HS to teach all things and truth failed miserably Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 My mom comitted suicide. What drives a person to take their own life? I think every situation is different in God's eyes. Perhaps my mom wasn't able to reason when she took her life. God knows. I think I remember telling us that earlier, and I never told you that I'm sorry that it happened to you and your mom. It's very sad when someone comes to point where they see no other way then to end their life. At risk of being labeled as insensitive, I must ask you how do you look at the common idea that a person that commits suicide will go to Hell and have no chance of salvation? How do you think about your mom, where did she end up? (And I hope you'll forgive me for asking this very sensitive question.) I remember my dad telling me that person doing suicide will go to Hell, and I could not accept it, since I don't remember any scriptural support for this idea. What's your take on it? Hans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 As I said before, we don't know what happens to a person before passing from this life to the next. Perhaps at the moment of death Jesus appears to the soul giving he or she another chance to choose heaven. Sounds like you're an universalist. Everyone have an ultimate chance of being saved beyond the grave. So, then you don't have to have any worries about us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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