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Proverbs 11:20 - God Hates Sinners?


h3lix
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KJV: They that are of a froward heart are abomination to the LORD: but such as are upright in their way are his delight.

 

NIV: The LORD detests men of perverse heart

but he delights in those whose ways are blameless.

 

I spent the last week at Crossroads because I made the mistake of saying I wanted to go (while I still had marginal faith). One of the classes there was a lesson about God's marvelous Grace and how God loves everyone, especially the sinners. :ugh:

After the workshop, I went to the speaker and showed him this verse which I just happened to find on the way to the camp.

He stalled for a second before telling me to look at the context of the verse. I had already completely read the chapters surrounding it about the contrast between the wicked and the upright. He also said that that may not be what the verse literally meant (I'm paraphrasing as I don't remember his exact words). I responded with the very good point from Hellbound Alleee that I heard on Freethought Radio that if God had meant something different, he would have said something different.

His argument was that if you look just at single verses for things that look wrong or contradict, that's all you're going to find and you'll miss the main point about Jesus' salvation.

I, cursed with the inability to come up with arguments on the spot, said that answered my question and left. At lunch I ran into one of the main speakers there and he told the same argument.

 

If I'd thought of it then, I would have told him this analogy:

Say you have a CD with a song that you simply find amazing. Every time you hear it, the beautiful words and music move you to tears. However, in one part of the song, the singer yells the F-word (I didn't post it because I don't want to contribute to the stereotype that all people who have no faith in God are loose-tongued corrupt people whom are hated by god according to the verse above). Would you still find that a good song and want to share it with your family, friends and children? Would you play it in sunday school and give copies out to total strangers, especially little kids?

After all, you can't just focus on that one word and ignore the beauty of the rest of the song. If you just look for things you'll find offensive, that's all you'll find, right? Besides, look at the context of the song, surely he didn't literally mean f---.

 

 

What are your thoughts?

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My thought is, as SOON as a Christian uses the dreaded "C" word..."CONTEXT"...then you KNOW you've won the argument. Each and every time you back a Christian into a corner with logic, reason and THEIR OWN SCRIPTURES, they attempt to confuse you with the "taken out of context" ruse. It's either that, or they will blame you for not being spirit-filled "enough" to see god's "truth", OR "his ways are higher than our ways", OR that was a "different dispensation and God dealt with people differently way back then."

 

Your friends are full of crapolah. Even IF you were to allow for the "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" mantra, I would still argue back with, "But it's still the SINNER that goes to hell, right? Not just the sin?" :Doh:

 

God DOES hate sinners. And just about everyone else who pisses him off.

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I would still argue back with, "But it's still the SINNER that goes to hell, right? Not just the sin?"

 

Wow, I've never thought of that. Good point!

 

I thought I might also add that to a list of sins one of the students was listing as people suggested them, homosexuality and suicide were listed (both were spelled wrong, I might add).

I think that in order to be a sin it has to be a conscious choice. While I don't believe that homosexuality is congenital, I don't believe it is a choice that someone consciously makes or can control.

As for suicide, the one committing the act is in a state of despair and would probably qualify in psychology as temporary insanity. Depression and despair are not conscious choices, and neither are mental illnesses. In my bible (NASB), there is a page full of references to verses whenever you're feeling depressed or suicidal. One of them is as follows:

1 Corinthians 3:16-17

Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

 

so...if you kill yourself, God will kill you? Talk about compassion!

but I digress...

 

So gays by environmental influences which they cannot control and people who are in such despair that the only way they can see out of it is by the taking of their own life are an abomination and are detested by God?

The thought that one of my good friends who took his life last year is in hell because God hates him fills me with hate that people would worship this God.

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Even IF you were to allow for the "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" mantra, I would still argue back with, "But it's still the SINNER that goes to hell, right? Not just the sin?" :Doh:

 

Good one, Mista Grinch - I'm going to remember that.

 

Yes, what an all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful god the one depicted in the Babble™ must be to make imperfect beings and then get mad at them for being imperfect - as he made them to be :Wendywhatever:

 

Nobody thinks before they write this shit down, do they?

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The thought that one of my good friends who took his life last year is in hell because God hates him fills me with hate that people would worship this God.

 

The good news is your friend isn't in hell. Hell doesn't exist. :phew: It's sad he took his own life, but you can tell the churchies who cluck and wag their fingers about it to blow themselves.

 

Besides, if there really was a hell, it would be so full of hypocritical xtians there wouldn't be room for anyone else. :HaHa:

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If you know it's in proper context, then explain why you believe it's the proper context. If they then say it doesnt mean what it literally says, then ask them what theyre interpretation is. 99% of the time, theyre interpretation is going to be waaaay out of context. You can then challenge them again on the context.

 

You can then call them out for not reading the bible literally too. You can point out Genesis didnt literally happen. Jesus' death and resurrection didnt literally happen. etc. etc. etc.

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Man I am pissed.

 

I tried to post this question on Christian Forums to see if I could get an answer. I retyped the whole post and embellished it with some of the responses I got here (rephrasing some parts of my post so as not to be offensive). It took about 10-20 minutes to type up the whole post. When I finally finished, it told me I couldn't make any posts in that forum until I had amassed 100 posts in other forums and I couldn't go back and copy what I had spent all of this time writing to post on another forum.

 

What if someone who had some worries about his faith and was looking for answers wanted to post them in that forum. Excluding people like that doesn't seem like a good way to bring people to Christ, but excluding people seems to often be the policy.

After all, 2 Corinthians 6:14 (NIV) says

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

(KJV)

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

One of the speakers in a different workshop used this verse as a reason christians should never date non-christians.

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...99% of the time, theyre interpretation is going to be waaaay out of context...

 

Is that ever true. I was having a discussion with my little brother about the meaning of the parable of the ten minas (Luke 19:11-27) which seems to be clearly expressed in the second to last verse, the last verse just being senseless threats and violence.

 

Luke 19:26 NIV:

"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away...

Luke 19:26 KJV:

For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

 

My little brother tried to excuse this injustice by arguing that what they that "have" have is faith. The verse right before this (to which this verse was an answer) and the person to whom the parable was spoken clearly imply that the verse was just about money.

The nearest context that could have possibly suggested this was 9 verses ago when faith was mentioned, but the more accurate context was the fact that the one who received the third servants only mina had 10 minas already.

You can also prove this wrong by looking at Jesus' actions right after the parable.

"Wasn't that a great story, kids? Now go steal me a goat."

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