OnceConvinced Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Doesn't it irritate you how Christians always try to claim that Christianity is different to every other religion because it is about a relationship with Christ, not about religion? Even as a christian I couldn't understand why my fellow christians lived in such denial. Christians always claim that religion is a bad thing. But yet they are just as religious as any other religion. Before any christian tries to deny this, just look at this list: Going to church every Sunday Communion Baptism Raising hands Speaking in tongues. Standing and singing together to God Closing your eyes during prayer Pressing your hands together during prayer Baby dedications/christening Annointing with oil Laying hands on people while praying Holding hands while praying Saying grace before eating Saying the lord's prayer together (A bit like a chant really) Pastor getting the congregation to repeat things he has said out loud Standing and reading scriptures from a bible Altar calls Quiet times PRAYING I'm sure I missed a heap. This is a list of religious rituals. What makes it any different to any other religion? Christianity is full of religion and ritual. I'm really interested in any opinion by devout fundamentalists here, but also look forward to ex-christian's opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Going to church every Sunday Jesus went to many places on the sabbath of that timeframe, teaching and establishing communication with the other followers. Communion Jesus was the whole point of that, not ritualistic guidlines. He said to do it. Baptism Again, Jesus not only was baptised, but told us to do that. Raising hands I agree with you there. This is more of a ritualistic formality, though it was genuinely established in Acts in the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Speaking in tongues Same as above.. Standing and singing together to God Thats a tough one. I believe that just is something that only the person and God truly knows is genuine and not rituals of a particular denomination. Closing your eyes during prayer Agree and add that actually Jesus said that when someone prays to go into a room alone and pray; avoiding the outcome of being a hypocrite standing out on the street corners. Pressing your hands together during prayer I have never personally experienced a church that looks at this as something to do, yet as above, only God and that person really knows. Baby dedications/christening That goes back to what Jesus said regarding baptisism, directing that toward Jesus. Annointing with oilLaying hands on people while praying Jesus did this himself, and supposedly enabled His believers to do the same. As for some denominations, they added to it by what Paul said. So this can be Jesus, and ritual, depends. Holding hands while praying I agree, yet would have to explain that Paul said to do this as well in the Bible. Thats why they do anyhow. Saying grace before eating Actually, Im gonna jump outside the box here and say that Jesus introduced the whole not worring about what you eat, yet He blessed and prayed about most things. The Bible says His spirit was upon Him without measure. I think that if we ask God to bless what we eat, it will be blessed. So yes I agree with ritual, yet I can say that it depends on what that person thought process is about God. Saying the lord's prayer together (A bit like a chant really) Agree and disagree. Yes, this is a very outward gesture, yet Paul is to thank for that, though Jesus pretty much said the opposite. To be alone. Pastor getting the congregation to repeat things he has said out loud Agree. Yet every peoples and denominations have lives and situations totally diffrnt from one another. Standing and reading scriptures from a bible Jesus did that. Altar calls Again, Jesus. Jesus said all those that are weary come to Him. Thats what an altar call is, for anyone that needs Him. Quiet times Agree, though I never have experienced that before. PRAYING Well, Jesus did that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I think the point is that Christianity is a religion, because of these points. It's to argue against the common notion or expression that "Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted July 24, 2006 Author Share Posted July 24, 2006 Pressing your hands together during prayer I have never personally experienced a church that looks at this as something to do, yet as above, only God and that person really knows. I think this might just be one of those things you're taught to do as a child in sunday school. I've never really noticed people in the modern church doing it, but was always taught that was what you were supposed to do. Saying the lord's prayer together (A bit like a chant really) Agree and disagree. Yes, this is a very outward gesture, yet Paul is to thank for that, though Jesus pretty much said the opposite. To be alone. Fortunately most churched I've been to have never done this. But there was an old Anglican/Methodist church I went to that did. It seemed weird to me as a young teenager, not used to seeing it done. I appreciate the fact that Jesus did a lot of these things and expected us to do the same. But when it comes down to it, they are still religious rituals, which from my point of view makes Christianity a religion. I think the point is that Christianity is a religion, because of these points. It's to argue against the common notion or expression that "Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship". Yeah, that's the point I was making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I think the point is that Christianity is a religion, because of these points. It's to argue against the common notion or expression that "Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship". I understand the general concept here, yet I am appling that the concept is defined by the individual, and what they believe is Christianity. I believe Christianity is the following/followers of Jesus Christ. That simple for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I think the point is that Christianity is a religion, because of these points. It's to argue against the common notion or expression that "Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship". I understand the general concept here, yet I am appling that the concept is defined by the individual, and what they believe is Christianity. I believe Christianity is the following/followers of Jesus Christ. That simple for me. Yes Christianity is the followers of Jesus: who happen to make this following into a ritualized religion. The point that the claim that Christianity is somehow superior to other beliefs by calling it "a relationship, not a religion", is a completely hollow marketing slogan. It is equally as much a religion complete with teachings, rites of passage, rituals, laws, forms of worship, etc as all religions are. That the devotee has a personal relationship with Christ is in no way different than any other religion’s practitioner’s experience with the objects of their devotion. Again, it's just a cheap, and dishonest, marketing slogan. Reality is that Christianity is an institutionalized religion, which of course is comprised of individual believers. This is why I say that man makes God in his own image; feeds him by worship and devotion, so he can feed them who create him for themselves. It is what you're saying, just adding the rest of the story. BTW, to say that "Jesus was the point" of a particular religious practice is supposed to mean what? Of course, the particular deity of any religious ritual is the point of the practice. It's to focus one's mind on the particular god, like the god Jesus in taking communion. One other thing, you say "Jesus told us to do...". I would say it more this way, "The followers of Jesus have Jesus telling us..." This is more accurate and puts things in a better context for understanding. These practices were religious rites and rituals of the early Christians who later put these things into writing. Jesus did not pen these words, and they are at best a combination of an original source and the ideas of the followers. It's just helpful to be mindful of the human element in all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 As YoYo has proven, xians are great and providing excuses for each of their rituals. The real reason xianity is a religion is because they believe in a magic man in the sky and they have no proof of his existance. This = religion no matter how you slice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 HOLY SHEEP SHIT, BATMAN!!!! We're missing the point children! IF Christianity IS a "relationship" and NOT a "religion" (as Christians want to claim), then Christianity LOSES ALL THE RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES OF A RELIGION!!!!!! No more tax exemptions!! No more protections from the government based on "religious" beliefs!!! I say we bring this "relationship and not a religion" mantra to the attention to the law makers and have Christianity hoist up by its own fucked up petard!!! Glory!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 HOLY SHEEP SHIT, BATMAN!!!! We're missing the point children! IF Christianity IS a "relationship" and NOT a "religion" (as Christians want to claim), then Christianity LOSES ALL THE RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES OF A RELIGION!!!!!! No more tax exemptions!! No more protections from the government based on "religious" beliefs!!! I say we bring this "relationship and not a religion" mantra to the attention to the law makers and have Christianity hoist up by its own fucked up petard!!! Glory!! ONE small problem with this suggestion, Mr. Grinch. Most of the lawmakers in Washington have a "relationship with god" ------ Oh and with the Christian right as well. Either way you look at it - at this point in American History - our goose is cooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 HOLY SHEEP SHIT, BATMAN!!!! We're missing the point children! IF Christianity IS a "relationship" and NOT a "religion" (as Christians want to claim), then Christianity LOSES ALL THE RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES OF A RELIGION!!!!!! No more tax exemptions!! No more protections from the government based on "religious" beliefs!!! I say we bring this "relationship and not a religion" mantra to the attention to the law makers and have Christianity hoist up by its own fucked up petard!!! Glory!! ONE small problem with this suggestion, Mr. Grinch. Most of the lawmakers in Washington have a "relationship with god" ------ Oh and with the Christian right as well. Either way you look at it - at this point in American History - our goose is cooked. Even so.....we need to remember this for the next time a "relationship...not a religion" spouter of BS joins our little band to prosletyze. I mean....we EXPECT politicians to be corrupt and such....so we can certainly apply this to the everyday "wholesome and humble" uber-christian who comes in here. I mean surely in good conscience, their minister and pastors take the amount they save on taxes (a "gift" from a corrupt government) and give that amount away to charity right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 IF Christianity IS a "relationship" and NOT a "religion" (as Christians want to claim), then Christianity LOSES ALL THE RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES OF A RELIGION!!!!!! No more tax exemptions!! No more protections from the government based on "religious" beliefs!!! Good point. First we cut Pat Robertson off the tax money funding. He's getting millions of dollars each year, from our pockets. To go to poor countries, give them food, and a Bible. And he sends missionaries at the same time to the same place. That bugs the hell out of me. And on the other hand if "Atheism is a Religion" like some idiots claim now and then, I guess FFRF and Freethought Media etc, and this site, maybe could get tax money from Bush's Faith Initiative, or at least the tax break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 IF Christianity IS a "relationship" and NOT a "religion" (as Christians want to claim), then Christianity LOSES ALL THE RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES OF A RELIGION!!!!!! No more tax exemptions!! No more protections from the government based on "religious" beliefs!!! Good point. First we cut Pat Robertson off the tax money funding. He's getting millions of dollars each year, from our pockets. To go to poor countries, give them food, and a Bible. And he sends missionaries at the same time to the same place. That bugs the hell out of me. And on the other hand if "Atheism is a Religion" like some idiots claim now and then, I guess FFRF and Freethought Media etc, and this site, maybe could get tax money from Bush's Faith Initiative, or at least the tax break. Yes...and maybe our gathering places could also get in on the federally mandated 2.00 per month fee that is charged on DSL internet that puts computers in schools and CHURCHES. That last one almost made me cancel my installation. What? Separation of church and state? Where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted July 24, 2006 Author Share Posted July 24, 2006 Hmmmm. If Christianity is just a relationship, then I guess that means it's a defacto one, so there for there are ramifications with that too when it comes to taxes and all that sort of stuff. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 What? Separation of church and state? Where? There's still that (more and more ignored) line in your constitution... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 What? Separation of church and state? Where? There's still that (more and more ignored) line in your constitution... You know...I would love to file an application with the government for a computer for a church of satan. If they didn't comply (and I was rich) I would go to the supreme court. Not that it would get me the computer, but at least the publicity would be huge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 The first thing thumpers do is claim a straw man: Religion is following a bunch of rules to try and please God. Now, for one thing, that is not anyone's definition of religion. For another, it's only after you accept Christ and become a bona-fide believer that the christian rules kick in. Don't gossip. Don't tell a lie. (not even a white lie) Give 10% (or more - however much God leads you to give) Flee from lust Wear modest clothing Church three times a week (only if you're REALLY in love with Jesus) Don't associate with unbelievers Spank your kids etc, etc. Christianity is most certainly a religion. And a fucked-up one, to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Good point Mythra. Christianity adds "morals" and rules to follow, it doesn't subtract them. You don't get liberated, you get enslaved. What kind of relationship is that? "Yes Master, we do have a great relationship. I will do as you command." and bows to the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 You forgot: ...and begs for the whip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 I understand the general concept here, yet I am appling that the concept is defined by the individual, and what they believe is Christianity. I believe Christianity is the following/followers of Jesus Christ. That simple for me. How do you follow a guy that you can't see? That is what do you mean by following? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 How do you follow a guy that you can't see? That is what do you mean by following? Oh, that's an easy one. You just think things over really good. Pray about it. Think it over some more. Talk to your pastor about it. Then, make a decision about what you really want to do. And then you say, "God is leading me" Simple. By the same token - You've got other options to consider: Missionary to Africa: (no air conditioning over there) Nope. God's not leading me. Go take the gospel to the inner city: (they freakin shoot at each other there) Nope. God's not leading me. Go work in a nursing home and help old people. (sometimes they piss themselves) Nope. God's not leading me. And on it goes. Nothing better than following Jesus wherever he leads you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Yeah, everything you said in your first post basically tells us that the holy book of your religion tells us that the chief deity of your religion said to perform the rituals of your religion. All these things are criterion of a religion. Basically you've supported our assertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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