OnceConvinced Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I'd really love to hear what Christians think about this. The story of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son is one story that has bothered me a lot. Why would God even request such a thing of Abraham? Sure, we know it was never his intention for Abraham to kill his son, but why would God even consider playing such a dispicable trick on a loyal servant? Ok, it was to test his faith, but what sort of sick twisted mind would do something like that just to test a guy's faith? Further more, how could Abraham have even taken the command seriously? If God told someone in this day and age to sacrifice their child, every Christian in the world would leap to their feet and say "That's the devil! That's not God! Don't listen to him!" Hell, I'd automatically think it was the devil pretending to be God if it was me. So why do we believe it was God who asked Abraham to sacrifice his son? Because the writer of that book in the bible thought it was? Or because Abraham thought it was. And if it really was God who demanded such a thing, doesn't that make him a complete and utter bastard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 That one always bothered me, too. Why would Jesus do such a thing - violate his own commandments (lying to Abe about wanting him to kill his son) in such a petty and cruel way? Just another reason to leave bronze-age morality in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I'd really love to hear what Christians think about this. The story of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son is one story that has bothered me a lot. Why would God even request such a thing of Abraham? Sure, we know it was never his intention for Abraham to kill his son, but why would God even consider playing such a dispicable trick on a loyal servant? Ok, it was to test his faith, but what sort of sick twisted mind would do something like that just to test a guy's faith? Further more, how could Abraham have even taken the command seriously? If God told someone in this day and age to sacrifice their child, every Christian in the world would leap to their feet and say "That's the devil! That's not God! Don't listen to him!" Hell, I'd automatically think it was the devil pretending to be God if it was me. So why do we believe it was God who asked Abraham to sacrifice his son? Because the writer of that book in the bible thought it was? Or because Abraham thought it was. And if it really was God who demanded such a thing, doesn't that make him a complete and utter bastard? Question for you for the day. What would you think if someone quit all there very well paid jobs, took a seriously less paying, stature postion, in lue of losing there whole identity and family, because of the things God supposedly said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shiva H. Vishnu Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 God hates children because they divide the loyalties of his adult followers. Children are totally expendable to god. There could be no more glaring example of this than the final egyptian plague, towhere god killed babies to make his power known to sinful adults. Why any christian would give a shit about abortion is beyond me. Obviously god doesn't relly care about you until you're an adult, and then your actions may anger him and cause him to punish children. Sweet. I know some weepy xtians will cite Jesus' words about "suffer the children to come onto me", and "unless you become like children", but what this means is tha god wants simple minded adult followers. It couldn't possibly negate bible god's long standing hatred for children. To god, anything that you might grow to love is a threat. Babies, being so adorable, really boil his blood, just like pokie men and teletubbies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Question for you for the day. What would you think if someone quit all there very well paid jobs, took a seriously less paying, stature postion, in lue of losing there whole identity and family, because of the things God supposedly said? That person would have to be a freakin' yoyo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Question for you for the day. What would you think if someone quit all there very well paid jobs, took a seriously less paying, stature postion, in lue of losing there whole identity and family, because of the things God supposedly said? That person would have to be a freakin' yoyo. Your the lucky winner. So here I am. My POV is maybe His ways are a little diffrent for some that He is directing, whom listen to Him, to a higher ground of communication. I mean Ellijah heard from God and ran around pretty much in craziness, reminding while he performed eyeopening signs, yet ran away from a woman. The thing I see in reading Ellijahs journey is when God told him that He had so many thousand people in this place that havent bowed down to the other gods. That tells me even in that time that some are believers in general, some do good things in communities, some help others, some may even just speak a word or two to groups. Then theres Ellijah at the same time and place, moving a complete kingdom by God direct word to him, also in lue of him seeing more than most, than elect few, including likes of Moses. In which, Ellijah was taken up in a whirlwind, according to what it says anyhow. I mean looking at the factors of the story, and me appling it to my drunken state of thoughts and reality at the same time, it makes sense that maybe God has something planned for me to accomplish that many might not have. Jesus did say that the harvest is great, and the labourers are few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Jesus did say that the harvest is great, and the labourers are few. He also said that many will be trapped in fantasy land until the end of their days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DucorpsToo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I'm with Fwee on this one. I think that is a very sick and twisted thing to do in order to "test" a follower. Sounds like a diety who enjoys his powertrips. Even a firm yet loving parent would't make their own kid kill his/her beloved pet just to see how much they "loved" that parent. If so, that would speak volumes as the nature of the parent....not to mention a call to CPS made by myself! ...And as to the "sufferings of Job"...yikes, biblegod played that poor man like a grand piano; and seemed to revel in it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I'm in the "sick cruel joke" camp on this one too. The christians want to try and shroud this one under the "faith" mantle too. But where it falls apart, is empathy. If you put yourself in Abraham's shoes for a second, imagine how it would truly feel for a supreme being to demand the life of your child by your own hand (assuming of course you are not a paranoid schitzophrenic who obeys the voices in your head without question).....and once you'd actually steeled yourself to actually commit this act (if you manage to get that far), for this supreme being to yank the rug out from under you at the last moment.....and claim it was just a test....oh and here is a ram you can sacrifice instead to take care of the adrenaline cocktail you've got flooding your body from being on the verge of killing your own blood..... I would not find myself feeling gratitude for this supposedly supreme being sparing my son....I'd feel pissed about having that particular chain yanked. And I'd sure start questioning the nature of the being that had been talking to me. Is this really god? Or is it a trickster demon claiming to be a god and fucking with me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Truly, the stories of Abraham and his son and of Lot and his daughters are among some of the finest examples of "family values" we have in the bible. Of course, we all know that Jeebus told people they should hate their families and love their enemies, so at least the OT & NT are consistent in a sense -- consistent in providing morally repugnant advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Question for you for the day. What would you think if someone quit all there very well paid jobs, took a seriously less paying, stature postion, in lue of losing there whole identity and family, because of the things God supposedly said? Several possibilities: 1. Someone who somewhere inside needed a change in their lifestyle and found God a convenient, and perhaps more acceptable way to explain socially why they gave up the pursuit of the American Dream. Even more so really, "God" becomes a "reason" of telling themselves explaining all this to themselves that it's for a higher ideal, and not for self. 2. Someone who really, honestly had no personal reasons other than felt compelled to listen to voices in their heads, something seen frequently in psychiatric evaluation of schizophrenics. 3. A real genuine, bona-fide human-like deity who manipulates human history by choosing "special" individuals to talk to, while ignoring all other humans who believe in Him, leaving them to become "apologists" to explain this contradiction about his amazingly humanlike, yet in cases of contradiction - not-human-like nature, by saying "he doesn't interfere" (except in cases of talking to people and telling them to interfere for him). I choose #1. Now to Abraham.... the real problem I have with it is that Abraham obeyed God. What I mean by that is that is that none of this was a violation of his views of YHWH. Human sacrifice wasn't why Abraham was challenged, but that he was being asked to cut of his promised heir, his bloodline the God had promised him. Child sacrifice seemed consistent with Abraham's view of God. That said who else had been sacrificing babies to YHWH back then that this didn't seem a contradiction of faith for him? Don't tell me that Abraham was the first to learn of this god. No way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wideawake42 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Antler up there gave a pretty damn good answer, but I thought I'd chip in my two cents. The story always bothered me too, pre-deconversion. What bothered me about it was the same thing that bothered me about the entire book of Job - why the hell would God need to TEST anything? Doesn't he already know the answer? Doesn't he already know that Abraham would be faithful, as would be Job? I find it funny when Christians can automatically assume it was God telling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, but when Andrea Yates or Dena Schlosser is "commanded by God" to kill her children, it must have been the devil, or she was crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted July 24, 2006 Author Share Posted July 24, 2006 Question for you for the day. What would you think if someone quit all there very well paid jobs, took a seriously less paying, stature postion, in lue of losing there whole identity and family, because of the things God supposedly said? I would wonder why that person thought he needed to go so far. I would have looked for some other way. To me it would be a ludicrous way of keeping your identity. From a Christian perspective I just can't believe that God would even suggest Abraham do such a thing to his kid. That's not God, that's the Devil. We would all believe that today as Christians. Antler up there gave a pretty damn good answer, but I thought I'd chip in my two cents. I find it funny when Christians can automatically assume it was God telling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, but when Andrea Yates or Dena Schlosser is "commanded by God" to kill her children, it must have been the devil, or she was crazy. Absofuckenlutely! My point exactly. You are right with your other comments too. Why would God need to test Abraham's faith. Also why test it in that way? Why not just say "Abraham as a test of your faith I want you to jump off that cliff and I'll catch you". Or why not get him to sacrifice his own life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 So god didn't know what Abe's reaction would be? Why did he have to test Abe & Job? If he can't predict what humans will do, he couldn't be omniscient. And if he can't see inside the human heart, how can he judge us? Does he simply choose not to use his power to see what each of us would really do for him if he asked us? That doesn't really make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted July 25, 2006 Author Share Posted July 25, 2006 More good points. Actually this story is probably one of the first major things that really had me wondering about the divinity of the bible. I'd always believed this story, believing that God had commanded this of Abraham. But then I really started to question it. There was no way the God I believed in would request such a thing... or would he? It couldn't be God, no way. So therefore if it wasn't God, then the bible was wrong, which meant the bible was fallible. On the other hand if that was God telling Abraham to do that, then that makes him an evil SOB and I guess if you go by a large portion of the other stories, especially in the OT, then it's a hard fact to escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madie Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Question for you for the day. What would you think if someone quit all there very well paid jobs, took a seriously less paying, stature postion, in lue of losing there whole identity and family, because of the things God supposedly said? that's completely stupid--except for the few "yoyo's" who would actually do it. my POV: now why would god ask everyone to quit their jobs to take a low paying job? would you do it? this falls in line with the thinking of why god would condemn the world to hell. doesn't make sense--but only to the few who are able to wrap their minds around the idea to make it logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wideawake42 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Absofuckenlutely! My point exactly. You are right with your other comments too. Why would God need to test Abraham's faith. Also why test it in that way? Why not just say "Abraham as a test of your faith I want you to jump off that cliff and I'll catch you". Or why not get him to sacrifice his own life? Right on. You know, if he really were a God of love who despised murder, etc., wouldn't the correct answer to Abe's test be: "Hell no, I'm not killing my son, I love him!" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted July 25, 2006 Author Share Posted July 25, 2006 And God would hopefully say "That's the answer I wanted to hear, after all that son is a gift from me, and you should always cherish and nurture the gifts I give you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soule Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 i love putting this story in perspective for people. theres a voice in abrahams head that no one else can hear telling him to kill people. what to do.. what to do... listen to it? yeah thats a good thing to do. *goes to get knife and son* "ok son a voice in my head that told me it was god, said that i need to sacrifice you to him. but dont worry! it said you will come back to life too so the unplesantness of me sliting your throat and you drowning in your own blood will only be temporary. so yeah lemme see your neck" ... hmmmm i dont know what you think but i think abraham was completely nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted August 3, 2006 Author Share Posted August 3, 2006 I was actually looking at this story last night and something else that really disturbed me was that Abraham seemed to think nothing of sacrificing his son. Ok, just because the story doesn't say he was upset about it, doesn't mean he wasn't, but you'd think the story would mention how Abraham lamented over the fact he had to sacrifice his only son who was pretty much born against all odds. But nope. Abraham just packs up his things, tricks his son to come along and heads off to murder him. What a great dad! You know another thing that gets to me is I remember this story coming up in Sunday School as a kid and I remember the sunday school teacher went on about how Abraham was so upset about having to sacrifice his son. Talk about twisting the story to make us sympathise with the bastard. And even after hearing that story I thought nothing of what a bastard God was doing this to Abraham. It's amazing how as a kid, church can manipulate the way you think, making you think it's ok that God would demand such a thing from one of his loyal followers. But I guess as a kid, you don't know any better and by the time your an adult you're already indoctronated into it and ignore the injustices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soule Posted August 4, 2006 Share Posted August 4, 2006 I was actually looking at this story last night and something else that really disturbed me was that Abraham seemed to think nothing of sacrificing his son. Ok, just because the story doesn't say he was upset about it, doesn't mean he wasn't, but you'd think the story would mention how Abraham lamented over the fact he had to sacrifice his only son who was pretty much born against all odds. But nope. Abraham just packs up his things, tricks his son to come along and heads off to murder him. What a great dad! You know another thing that gets to me is I remember this story coming up in Sunday School as a kid and I remember the sunday school teacher went on about how Abraham was so upset about having to sacrifice his son. Talk about twisting the story to make us sympathise with the bastard. And even after hearing that story I thought nothing of what a bastard God was doing this to Abraham. It's amazing how as a kid, church can manipulate the way you think, making you think it's ok that God would demand such a thing from one of his loyal followers. But I guess as a kid, you don't know any better and by the time your an adult you're already indoctronated into it and ignore the injustices. unfortunately that is the tactics that the church uses quite a bit. its unfortunate and one of the reasons that i think children should be exposed to a multitude of religions in some way or another. call it "culteral education". reminds me of a funny story... i was at a child therapist office the other day and i overheard a child just getting out of a session. "who should you respect?" "um... my mother" mother pops in "you respect god before anything" it took all my self controll to not step in and obliterate her falicies right there. *twich* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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