Where Did You End Up?

[The Paineful Truth]

Under pantheism, everything, matter, energy, ether, the entire universe, are God. (It also has a second aspect to its definition where pantheism are those who rever the pagan pantheon of gods.) Then there's panentheism which holds that our universe is just a part of God.

 

The why's for either of these scenarios are totally unanswered.

 

It's a "thanks" in the form of putting palms together and bowing a la Johnny Carson to Ed at the start of the old Tonight Show.

 

Good cover story for the kids. Got it.

[Rosa Mystica]

I think I'm evolving into a deist. I perceive an outside presence, but it doesn't seem to wanna talk to me.

 

Theist.

 

Even though I no longer believe in the following: Jesus, hell, and Satan(including his pet demons)...I still believe in God. However, I believe that God(whomever he she or it is) is truly omnipotent and all knowing...And the epitome of love.

I believe strongly in reincarnation, angels, and the afterlife...

 

 

Not sure I have the same interpretation, but that is a beautiful view of God/the Divine.

 

The inability to find a loving creator within Christianity was one of the main reasons I deconverted. That system robbed me of a compassionate God.

[Vixentrox]

Atheist, unless/until some supernatural being presents itself. And even if it did, I'd have myself checked for mental disorders.

 

Pretty much the same for me.

[BTDT]

I progressed from xian to theist to atheist. I realized in my 'generic theist' phase, (I too believed in reincarnation because it 'seems fair' and also appealed to my hope of running into people I have loved, over and over through all kinds of lifetimes), I was just cobbling together all the very best of human values and hopes and inventing a theology out of them, no more reality based than the one xianity has invented to appeal to all those same things.

 

Eventually I realized I'd be just fine letting 'known reality' be my guide.

 

Since unadulterated speculation & wishful thinking are highly unsatisifying to me, atheist I am content to remain until the evidence presents.

[The Paineful Truth]

I think I'm evolving into a deist. I perceive an outside presence, but it doesn't seem to wanna talk to me. sad.gif

 

The thing about revealed religions such as Christianity is, when God doesn't communicate with you, you blame yourself, your lack of faith, your low status etc.

 

With deism, you know you won't get an answer, but neither did Socrates, Gandhi or Jesus. No double standard. It's the equal opportunity religion. Answers are there for those who dig them up, and anyone can. We may have different talents and abilities, but they are not a basis for an elite class.

[The Paineful Truth]

Since unadulterated speculation & wishful thinking are highly unsatisifying to me, atheist I am content to remain until the evidence presents.

 

Do you see no evidence at all to at least get you slightly off the 50-50?

[Skankboy]

Atheist.

 

I use the teachings of Buddha as a guide for living, but am entirley naturalistic in my beliefs (ie, no supernatural is necessary for the universe, so I choose not to insert any).

 

I've never seen any evidence for the divine, but am always willing to see what other's have...

[The Paineful Truth]

Atheist.

 

I use the teachings of Buddha as a guide for living, but am entirley naturalistic in my beliefs (ie, no supernatural is necessary for the universe, so I choose not to insert any).

 

I've never seen any evidence for the divine, but am always willing to see what other's have...

 

I agree. But the chances for a deist God are just as good if not every so slightly better.

[NotBlinded]

I guess I would have to say that I too believe that everything are parts of God. My only difference (if it is different) is that God is not supernatural. It is the very essence of the natural. It's the counter part of the form...the formless.

[Skankboy]

I agree. But the chances for a deist God are just as good if not every so slightly better.

 

Then by all means, show me what you've got. The biggest issue I've seen w/the deist stance is their definition of god tends to be so broad and vague as to be equivalent to "universe"....

 

IMOHO,

[The Paineful Truth]

The biggest issue I've seen w/the deist stance is their definition of god tends to be so broad and vague as to be equivalent to "universe"....

 

That's because the only possible evidence for God IS the natural Universe. The deists' most potent argument is reasoning against all the supernatural revealed religions leaving you with only deism or atheism. It takes courage at first to give up the religious reassurance you thought you wanted for a big question mark.

[DoubleDee]

but I also think many atheists are that merely as a way of rebellion and don't really care that much about philosophy/religion/whatever.

Your statement sounds like one I'd hear from a Christian.

Studying religion and philosphy is why I am an atheist. Personally, I don't know a single atheist as you have described above.

[Skankboy]

That's because the only possible evidence for God IS the natural Universe. The deists' most potent argument is reasoning against all the supernatural revealed religions leaving you with only deism or atheism. It takes courage at first to give up the religious reassurance you thought you wanted for a big question mark.

 

You seem to add a layer of complexity where I see none. If "god" and "the universe" are equivalent, then god has no real meaning. It becomes an unecessary attatchment to a set of processess that don't require it.

 

If thinking there is a "god" of somekind makes you feel better, by all means go for it. There's nothing wrong with faith. But I find the awe of looking into the night sky all that much more fulfilling since I stopped trying to think we were somehow intended...

 

If I am completely off base here I apologize. But to me, this whole "God is the universe" thing has always escaped me...

 

IMOHO,

[The Paineful Truth]

DoubleDee wrote:

 

Your statement sounds like one I'd hear from a Christian.

 

Truth can come from the mouths of babes or the devil himself.

 

Studying religion and philosphy is why I am an atheist. Personally, I don't know a single atheist as you have described above

 

I'm already on record that atheism is the only other reasonable position on God besides Deism, and that atheists as a group are moral people, albeit not necessarily virtuous. I have a good deal of respect for atheists, and I could possibly end up as one.

 

That being said, the internet is heavily populated with rebellious atheists who are many times also anarchists, and/or whose main purpose for their atheism is to express their hatred for Christians, and/or who claim that it's certain that God does not exist with a fervor equal to the most fanatic Christians. I've seen some here already, their mocho or rebel posturing taking precedence over actually trying to get somewhere.

 

We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is wisdom in the Bible along with the evil.

[Vigile]

That being said, the internet is heavily populated with rebellious atheists who are many times also anarchists, and/or whose main purpose for their atheism is to express their hatred for Christians, and/or who claim that it's certain that God does not exist with a fervor equal to the most fanatic Christians. I've seen some here already, their mocho or rebel posturing taking precedence over actually trying to get somewhere.

 

With a sweeping statement like that you better be prepared to back it up. We're all wide-eyed with anticipation waiting for examples of our hatred and posturing.

[The Paineful Truth]

Hmmmm, you a lawyer. I mention "some" which gets turned into a "sweeping" statement attacking atheists on the board demanding "examples of our hatred and posturing".

 

In any case, one man's hatred is another man's common sense, thus they would automatically deny any such negative attribute, so I won't bring up any names at this poiint. I merely brought it up in order that others take notice--or not.

 

But if you want examples, review the "What if Xtianity were true" thread. I can appreciate irony and satire and use it myself, but there were also at least two responders who had nothing to say but puerile, emotional invective. Mine is not a general attack on the board, but my point stands whether you care or not to understand that I am in appreciation of the 98% thoughtful and considered responses I've read so far.

[Vigile]

Ha ha, no not a lawyer. There were just a couple of phrases in your reply that just didn't sound right to me though. This sentence for example: the internet is heavily populated with rebellious atheists who are many times also anarchists, and/or whose main purpose for their atheism is to express their hatred for Christians.

 

Your experience is likely different from mine. I probably spend more time on this page than anywhere else non work related, and that sentence just isn't true from my own experience.

 

You also stated earlier: but I also think many atheists are that merely as a way of rebellion and don't really care that much about philosophy/religion/whatever, which just doesn't ring true from what I've observed personally. Most atheists I know, including myself, are bordering on obsession when it comes to philosophy/religion/whatever. You will find that most atheists on this website have spent a great deal of time and thought working through their own personal beliefs and have arrived at their positions through painful introspection, careful observance of available evidence, and a great deal of research and questioning of the facts as they are presented. An ambivalent atheist is almost an oxymoron.

 

I did read through the thread you mention and didn't see anything too over the top there. Perhaps I've been here long enough to have grown some callouses. Perhaps I'm one of the offenders. Try to understand however that this website has people in various stages of their deconversions. Those who have spent the majority of their lives being fed a lie are likely to be a bit bombastic when confronted with issues that hit so close to their emotional sore spots. Some of us are even able to maintain some semblance of objectivity despite our emotionalism.

[NotBlinded]

That's because the only possible evidence for God IS the natural Universe. The deists' most potent argument is reasoning against all the supernatural revealed religions leaving you with only deism or atheism. It takes courage at first to give up the religious reassurance you thought you wanted for a big question mark.

 

You seem to add a layer of complexity where I see none. If "god" and "the universe" are equivalent, then god has no real meaning. It becomes an unecessary attatchment to a set of processess that don't require it.

 

If thinking there is a "god" of somekind makes you feel better, by all means go for it. There's nothing wrong with faith. But I find the awe of looking into the night sky all that much more fulfilling since I stopped trying to think we were somehow intended...

 

If I am completely off base here I apologize. But to me, this whole "God is the universe" thing has always escaped me...

 

IMOHO,

I look at more like God is the 'Awe' when looking at the universe.

 

 

DoubleDee wrote:

 

Your statement sounds like one I'd hear from a Christian.

 

Truth can come from the mouths of babes or the devil himself.

 

Studying religion and philosphy is why I am an atheist. Personally, I don't know a single atheist as you have described above

 

I'm already on record that atheism is the only other reasonable position on God besides Deism, and that atheists as a group are moral people, albeit not necessarily virtuous. I have a good deal of respect for atheists, and I could possibly end up as one.

 

That being said, the internet is heavily populated with rebellious atheists who are many times also anarchists, and/or whose main purpose for their atheism is to express their hatred for Christians, and/or who claim that it's certain that God does not exist with a fervor equal to the most fanatic Christians. I've seen some here already, their mocho or rebel posturing taking precedence over actually trying to get somewhere.

 

We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is wisdom in the Bible along with the evil.

I agree with you...I was once one of those atheists you are talking about. My signature, when I had an epiphany, use to be (something like): The Bible: When I believed, I was blinded by what it wasn't. When I no longer believed, I was blinded to what it was.

[The Paineful Truth]

Those who have spent the majority of their lives being fed a lie are likely to be a bit bombastic when confronted with issues that hit so close to their emotional sore spots. Some of us are even able to maintain some semblance of objectivity despite our emotionalism.

 

Yes, the rebel types tend to be very young. I think they either go on to being more contemplative atheists, but some become materialists or completely loose their way and all morality is flushed down the toilet. I see the same thing with deists, and there are those who just go straight to hell, so to speak. BTW, I was prodded into my deism from Christianity by an atheist, and it took two years. He never came to know how he'd affected me because I only argued against him about it while I knew him. I'd just like to pass the favor on if and when I can, at any extreme where I find them or they find me.

 

I might even convert some atheists here.

 

If thinking there is a "god" of somekind makes you feel better, by all means go for it. There's nothing wrong with faith.

 

Hope fits me better. I do have faith, but I give reason priority on the course I take, while faith gives the drive to follow it. Faith without reason is blind, reason without faith is dead. Reason is the driver at the controls, faith is the engine. (I hope I haven't overdone the analogies.)

 

Also, I'm not really tied to the 'God is the universe' thing. God could be part of it, more than it is, or even have come in to being with it. I'm just saying that it's the only place we have to look for evidence of a laissez faire God. I am definitely tied to God (as a term for ultimate reality) being equivalent with Truth, which is so even for atheists. I believe they should pursue the Truth as diligently as any theist (claims to), if for no other reason than to improve their/our lives and to discern the self-enforcing moral code.

 

Before anyone gets upset at that last, let me quickly add that I believe Truth (the ultimate reality) to have at least four facets: Natural law, justice, love and beauty. The purely objective to the purely subjective, and its pursuit has many paths. This ultimate reality may or may not be a sentient, omnipresent being, but I believe and hope that He/She/It is.

[BlueGiant]

Other.

 

Take a blend of some Taoism, Enlightenment Philosophy, add in some Wicca and a general Eclectic Pagan thoughts and ideas in for flavor and shake.

 

Serve over ice in a tall glass.

 

In all seriousness, I started taking the pieces of other religions I come into contact with. I am a sort of a theist, sort of not. There is something that I believe in that others would call God, but has a few major differences:

 

First, it may or may not be sentient, more of a force of nature than anything else.

 

Second, and more importantly, it doesn't give a flying fuck about us one way or another. We may be able to tap into it's power through some very bizare effects (quantum effects come to mind for those that like scientific examples), but it really is more taking it (kind of like a mosquito) than anything else.

 

Guess you could say that my most basic tennet is that it is obvious that there is no big sky daddy who loves you, just like there isn't a big sky daddy that hates you and wants to beat you like a red-headed stepchild.

 

There are a lot of other details I have in my kludge of a system, but most of it would be wasted time typing, as it is strictly homegrown for personal use (and aeroponic to boot).

[The Sage Nabooru]

That being said, the internet is heavily populated with rebellious atheists who are many times also anarchists, and/or whose main purpose for their atheism is to express their hatred for Christians, and/or who claim that it's certain that God does not exist with a fervor equal to the most fanatic Christians. I've seen some here already, their mocho or rebel posturing taking precedence over actually trying to get somewhere.

 

We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is wisdom in the Bible along with the evil.

 

I agree with that. Those people can be as frightening as Christian or Muslim fundies.

 

"I can't believe we live in a world where we allow people who believe in God or spirituality to breed, run for office, vote, raise children, even run their stupid religious organizations. All people should be converted to atheism or dumped out in the ocean somewhere."

 

"You sick fundamentalist, what kind of sorry bastard are you?"

 

"Stupid believer, typical of you. I can't be a 'fundamentalist' because I'm RIGHT."

[The Paineful Truth]

Blue Giant wrote:

it doesn't give a flying fuck about us one way or another.

 

Asuming for the sake of argument that He exists, why do you say that?

[Dirac]

1. Christianity-leaning agnostic

2. Agnostic

3. Currently an atheist-leaning agnostic

 

Will I make the leap to full-blown atheist in the near future? It's looking probable isn't it? xD

 

Isn't amazing how I have only ever had a desire to investigate Christianity in detail. There is no doubt in my mind that Sikhism, Hinduism et al. are not worth the time to look into seriously. The childhood indoctrination is powerful, only time can cure it I am told. Atheism here I come!

[The Sage Nabooru]

There is no doubt in my mind that Sikhism, Hinduism et al. are not worth the time to look into seriously.

 

And why not? Could it be perhaps because you have a very skewed opinion of such religions due to misinformation fostered by said Christian childhood?

 

That's an incredibly closed-minded statement. It makes me think of when my mother says "I know better than to read anything that tells me that Jesus is wrong."

[waynus]

Went from fundie to liberal to panentheism

now a convinced

atheist!