None Ex-Christians to Christians

[Alice]

The biggest problem I have with the Bible is the way the it's approached by the church in this era. I think this has everything to do with the way western thought developed during the (so called) enlightenment or reason. Great advances have been made as a result of the development of reason but not where the Bible is concerned.

 

We now approach the Bible with a modernistic mindset - I don't think it was ever meant to be seen this way.

 

I think the original writers of the old testament stories would be laughing their robes off - if it wasn't all so tragic - to see their tales being read as if they were written by award winning journalists and dissected and sorted through for 'truth' - as if truth were confined to 'did this happen' in the way we think it says it did.

[Ouroboros]

Does an absolute truth really exist?

Or is everything that we believe to be truths, only opinions?

 

Take science for instance, I take for granted, or I believe, that they tell me the truth when they say "this and this has been proven". But I can't really know it for true until I test it on my own, right? So we decide somewhere which way we want to go, and that's what we follow. And we take in information based on this decision.

[Alice]

Does an absolute truth really exist?

Or is everything that we believe to be truths, only opinions?

 

Take science for instance, I take for granted, or I believe, that they tell me the truth when they say "this and this has been proven". But I can't really know it for true until I test it on my own, right? So we decide somewhere which way we want to go, and that's what we follow. And we take in information based on this decision.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Which is exactly where the 'emotional' bit comes in - science is seen as the rational option - but deciding that this is the option one will follow still involves (IMO) an emotional response.

 

(which is why I don't think that 'proofs' of a historical Jesus - or something similar would convinve an atheist - there has to be some kind of movement in the emotions as well)

[Ouroboros]

Which is exactly where the 'emotional' bit comes in - science is seen as the rational option - but deciding that this is the option one will follow still involves (IMO) an emotional response.

 

(which is why I don't think that 'proofs' of a historical Jesus - or something similar would convinve an atheist - there has to be some kind of movement in the emotions as well)

 

Right, we decide what we want to believe. And sometimes we make that decision a bit too easy.

 

Some friends I have, when they get emails with urban legends, they send it further, and always like "Oh, my gosh, look at this...", and I always start researching, and send back, "That was not true, here's the true story..."

 

And some of these friends are atheists and some are Christians.

 

This is the reason it can be hard to talk to a religious person about how wrong they are, because they feel that you have made a decision too, somewhere along the line, to believe certain things.

 

Now, granted, when it comes to science, there are a lot of experiments that I can do to confirm that science actually does tell the truth. And also, this computer that I'm working on, is based on science, and couldn't work if it all was wrong. So the miracle of science is in front of me, and confirms that truth. But I can’t say the same thing about religion.

[Alice]

of course we can't say the same for religion ...

 

where I'm at on my journey at the moment - I still think religion has a lot to say about 'truth'.

 

It's a different kind of 'truth'

 

It's not supposed to be a concrete provable factual thing.

 

We have the different branches of science for that.

 

One of the things that happened during the enlightenment was that almost everything that didn't fall into the 'observable concrete' world was downgraded in importance.

 

Thus - whilst the physical medical sciences saw great advances - the more elusive psychiatry and psychology became the poor relations of the scientific world - its only in recent years when neuroscience has been able to back up some of the claims about how our emotions shape our personalities that due attention has been turned to these disciplines. There were a lot of 'truths' out there that weren't heeded becuase they didn't 'fit' accepted ideas of science.

 

Religion was largely dismissed at the outset of the enlightenment era - until churches started to try and adapt their teachings and systems to the modernist way of doing things - and this travesty which is 'the Bible is the actual word of God and contains an actual history and stories which describe God' emerged.

 

One of my mentors on my own spiritual quest once said to me 'just because it never happened don't mean it ain't the truth'

[Ouroboros]

One of my mentors on my own spiritual quest once said to me 'just because it never happened don't mean it ain't the truth'

 

Actually, in a sense I agree.

 

I'm not saying the Bible or any holy book is historically true or anything, I think it’s quite the opposite.

 

But I do think that some people have the need of a religious experience, why else would so many search for it, even after they leave on religion, they jump to the next. We need the emotional stimulation, like a drug. And I don’t see the Bible to be any stranger than a good movie.

 

Take the Matrix for instance. We know that the world it describes is not true. (Or is it?)

But it still can teach us things about philosophy and give us the thrill and emotional contact with the characters in the movie. We go for a journey, and we learn (maybe) something about ourselves.

 

That’s how I see the Bible, or a fairy tale, or the Shrek movie. When we learn about who we are, hopefully we can become a better people.

 

So, yes, I agree, even if it didn’t happen, it still it that sense can be true.

 

This is how the parts of the Bible were supposed to be read. Not historical, not literal, not even necessarily supernatural, but as a “spiritual” guide. And I don’t think any church really can help you do this.

[Guest Euthyphro]

If I could wave my magic wand all of xianity would be united and xians like TAP would be "The Church".

 

Personaly I think she is already deconverted. She may be a xian but she can't possibly be the same xian after all the soul searching and exposer to peole of other religious opinions.

 

Dialgue don't hurt no one. Disscussion. Questioning. These are not the same as preaching.

 

I am the olny one here who has a nasty habit of preaching and deconverting. It aint the same tactics as discussion and questioning like thomas was doing.

 

Your a freethinker and you should know better Zoe.

[Totallyatpeace]

TAP chooses to view her spiritual experiences through the lens of the bible.  I dont' know why this is complex to people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why are you all talking about me like I"m not in the room?

 

See the word in red above and you might understand why it matters not to me whether you see it my way or not. This is all about faith. It's a personal choice.

[Totallyatpeace]

Personaly I think she is already deconverted. She may be a xian but she can't possibly be the same xian after all the soul searching and exposer to people of other religious opinions.

 

Why would you think that? Have I said something that makes you think I am not strong in my faith? If so.....let me know so I can correct it.

 

Dialgue don't hurt no one. Disscussion. Questioning. These are not the same as preaching.

 

The dialogue I have had with people of other faiths has made me stronger in my own faith in some ways. But I have also found some commonality between our faiths and it seems to be working well. Maybe one of them will step up and agree with me on this.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest Euthyphro]

No Mam. I only meant that your perception of people of other faiths can't be the same. And that has to of changed some of your previous thinking.

 

I did say you were a xian. I never said you werent. But somewere along the line your beliefs had to of changed a little? How you interpret scripture? Something.

Work with me here.

 

I was only trying to point out that discussion and questiong is good thing is all.

[Guest Euthyphro]

Personaly I think she is already deconverted. She may be a xian but she can't possibly be the same xian after all the soul searching and exposer to people of other religious opinions.

 

Why would you think that? Have I said something that makes you think I am not strong in my faith? If so.....let me know so I can correct it.

 

Dialgue don't hurt no one. Disscussion. Questioning. These are not the same as preaching.

 

The dialogue I have had with people of other faiths has made me stronger in my own faith in some ways. But I have also found some commonality between our faiths and it seems to be working well. Maybe one of them will step up and agree with me on this.

There is nothing in what you say here that is contrary to my statements of not being the same xian.

[Totallyatpeace]

No Mam. I only meant that your perception of people of other faiths can't be the same. And that has to of changed some of your previous thinking.

 

I did say you were a xian. I never said you werent. But somewere along the line your beliefs had to of changed a little? How you interpret scripture? Something.

Work with me here.

 

I was only trying to point out that discussion and questiong is good thing is all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

 

I'm going to be honest here and tell you what has changed by spending time around people of other faiths. You will either find this rediculous or endearing, depending on who you are.

 

I have softened.

My love for people has increased.

My feelings of inner peace have increased.

My joy has increased.

I hunger for knowledge and understanding.

 

But I am still also at peace with what I believe. The ONLY thing that has really significantly changed is my feelings about outreach to the non-believer. I am of the belief that if someone is seeking understanding of my faith, they will ask me and I will tell them. Whether they choose to accept it or not, is their choice and the discussion ends there if they want it to. The friendship, however.....remains.

 

I use to think I needed to tell them and tell them until they accepted it. I don't feel that way anymore.

[Ouroboros]

I have softened.

My love for people has increased.

My feelings of inner peace have increased.

My joy has increased.

I hunger for knowledge and understanding.

 

But I am still also at peace with what I believe. The ONLY thing that has really significantly changed is my feelings about outreach to the non-believer. I am of the belief that if someone is seeking understanding of my faith, they will ask me and I will tell them. Whether they choose to accept it or not, is their choice and the discussion ends there if they want it to. The friendship, however.....remains.

 

I use to think I needed to tell them and tell them until they accepted it. I don't feel that way anymore.

 

I think you have the right attitude, keep it up!

[Guest Euthyphro]

I appreciate this very much TAP. After reading this my conscience tells me to be careful with you when you openly share your experiences and the insites that have come from them. I do not think you are ridiculous. I will never take back the magic wand comment either. I meant it.

 

You see I was spawned by fundies. To me you are not a xian. But you see, I still think like them in many ways even though I no longer have religion. What the hell do they know anyways? I think deconverted was a poor choice of words on my part though. It reveals my bias. Also I assumed you were a very conservative fundy at one point which is why I used the word deconverted. OOPS! Sorry bout that.

[I Broke Free]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

 

I'm going to be honest here and tell you what has changed by spending time around people of other faiths. You will either find this rediculous or endearing, depending on who you are.

 

 

I pick "endearing."

 

TAP, I have Christian friends like you. They are the "light on the hill" rather than the high-beams looking into my bedroom.

 

It is a pleasure to have you here.

 

IBF

[Totallyatpeace]

Euthyphro~

 

Will you, personally describe exactly what "fundy" means to you?

 

This is for my benefit.

 

Thanks.

[Totallyatpeace]

They are the "light on the hill" rather than the high-beams looking into my bedroom.

IBF

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That made me laugh!

[Guest Challenger]

It is a pleasure to have you here.

 

A great pleasure!

[Guest Euthyphro]

Political Southern baptists are my idea of true menac...xians. Being tolerant of other religions is not biblical. Everyone needs jesus. The whole world must be converted. Thats how I was taught. Not all Southern Baptists are the same. Uberfundies are what I grew up with. Maybe lunatics is a better word. Which explains me.

 

You are too open minded and don't like to think bad of people. You seem more concerned with your own spirituality and less concerned of the fact that others will not share your beliefs.

[Merlinfmct87]

Slumming?  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

THE TRUTH COMES OUT!

 

I pick "endearing."

 

TAP, I have Christian friends like you. They are the "light on the hill" rather than the high-beams looking into my bedroom.

 

It is a pleasure to have you here.

 

IBF

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is the absolute truth... I wouldn't change one thing.

 

Merlin, her Wiccan friend.

[Guest Euthyphro]

TAP. Lets just say that I interpret the bible different from you. That is were my bias comes from in regards your being a liberal xian.

 

But I come from paranoid fundies. I am still paranoid even though I am not xian. So maybe I twist scripture without even being aware of it. I am glad this convo brings this to mind.

[Totallyatpeace]

TAP. Lets just say that I interpret the bible different from you. That is were my bias comes from in regards your being a liberal xian.

 

I have never considered myself a liberal Christian. Is it because I "mingle" with non-believers? I learn a lot of good stuff from all sorts of people. 

 

And I know you interpret the Bible differently than I do. That's what makes you an Atheist and me a Christian.

 

 

But I come from paranoid fundies. I am still paranoid even though I am not xian. So maybe I twist scripture without even being aware of it. I am glad this convo brings this to mind.

 

Paranoid about what? If you don't believe there is a god you have nothing to be paranoid about.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest Euthyphro]

TAP wrote:

I have never considered myself a liberal Christian. Is it because I "mingle" with non-believers? I learn a lot of good stuff from all sorts of people

 

Well you said you might be wrong about God and the bible. AND the fact that you learn from people. I think it is the intention of the bible writers that the whole world gets gobbled up by xianity. You are too live and let live. Which I hope never changes.

 

And I know you interpret the Bible differently than I do. That's what makes you an Atheist and me a Christian.

Well now hold on a minute thier. I am an agnostic theist who leans towards deism. I just question my sanity on my relationship with Higher Power that seems very real. The atheists make a lota sense, but what I feel about God seems real. I dunno. Sometimes I'm atheist but that never lasts long.

 

Paranoid about what? If you don't believe there is a god you have nothing to be paranoid about.

 

I am paranoid that xians will gobble up the world. Destroy all the beautiful cultures in the world. And I blame the bible writers. I can not stomach all of xian morality. I like diversity as well. There is no supernatural reasons here.

[Ro-bear]

I am paranoid that xians will gobble up the world.

 

 

This would be a cool Japanese movie.

 

AAAAYAAAAAHHHH!!!! Christians! They are eating the world!

[Guest Euthyphro]

LOL!