God's Grace

[duderonomy]

I was taught that 'grace' from God, was "unmerited favor". What does that mean?

 

If I call God a buttmunch, for example, I wouldn't merit His holy favor (unless it were true). But isn't that where grace would kick in, and I would have His favor anyway? And if Jesus died for all sins, then would God forgive me for calling Him a buttmunch? Would I have to ask for forgiveness? Why? Wouldn't God just forgive me even though I'm too stubborn to ask for it, because of His favor that I don't deserve? How about if I were too sinful to ask? Too dumb? Wouldn't I just die and then wake up in Heaven anyway, because of God's grace?

 

What does that say about those who are in Hell for not believing? Or for any one of the sins in the New Testament, let alone the Old that are offences to a Holy God?

 

In other words, do we only get grace that we don't deserve when we earn it? Do we only get grace that we don't deserve when we deserve it?

 

 

[Thurisaz]

*fundie starts reading thread*

 

*fundie detects logic in thread*

 

*fundie throws coin: run off screaming or babble bullcrap?*

 

Just my prediction of course. Fundies, prove me wrong! I dare you!

[freeday]

I was taught that 'grace' from God, was "unmerited favor". What does that mean?

 

If I call God a buttmunch, for example, I wouldn't merit His holy favor (unless it were true). But isn't that where grace would kick in, and I would have His favor anyway? And if Jesus died for all sins, then would God forgive me for calling Him a buttmunch? Would I have to ask for forgiveness? Why? Wouldn't God just forgive me even though I'm too stubborn to ask for it, because of His favor that I don't deserve? How about if I were too sinful to ask? Too dumb? Wouldn't I just die and then wake up in Heaven anyway, because of God's grace?

 

What does that say about those who are in Hell for not believing? Or for any one of the sins in the New Testament, let alone the Old that are offences to a Holy God?

 

In other words, do we only get grace that we don't deserve when we earn it? Do we only get grace that we don't deserve when we deserve it?

 

 

 

i don't beleive it is anything that can be earned, but through faith in his grace that we don't deserve. i feel that the good works should come from having a faith in his salvation, not having faith that good works will result in salvation.

[Amanda]

 

Duderonomy, suppose we imagine for a moment that much of this is myth. Further, that much of these teachings are allegories and fables, with like a moral to the story... Then, how I see grace is that it is understanding that everyone is doing the best they can, from the walk of their particular life. How can we expect someone to do better than their best? How can we have condemnation for anyone then?

 

Grace, IMO, is understanding this about all, forgiving them, and letting go of any ill feelings toward someone. NOT because they deserve it, but because we deserve it. Unforgiveness, resentment, and animosity is like holding onto a hot coal waiting to throw it on someone. Forgiveness is different than condoning or excusing, just understanding they know not what they do and basically seeing them as the victim.

 

Of course, I also believe heaven and hell are just states of mind. Most here seem to experience heaven now far more than those who believe in a literal hell. This belief in a literal hell alone seems to put most "Christians" there right now! Yikes!

[InspectoGeneral]

God's grace cannot be understood apart from who God is. God is a person. Therefore His atributes can only be understood in light of who God is. God is also holy. God is also just.

 

Example:

 

Someone brakes into your house and kills one of your family members. They are found guilty

of murder. They stand before the judge and the judge tells them that they are guilty, but he is

going to let them off without consequence. What is wrong with this? There is no justice.

 

God must punish sin because He is just and holy. The explanation of who God is would be much more entailed than this. My only point is that God is a person and His attributes can't be understood in a vaccuum.

[Ouroboros]

God is a person? Are you serious? Does he have a physical body? Is he limited to space and time? Does he have a finite brain?

 

Quite interesting. I haven't heard any Christian before arguing that God is a Person.

 

He's a person, and his attributes can't be understood in a vacuum... What about he's a gnome and can be understood in vacuum cleaner?

[InspectoGeneral]

Just putting to rest the absurd assumption that this board was about serious discussion. Carry on.

 

 

Bwahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

 

 

 

Bwahahahahahahahahhahahhahahahhahahhahahahahahhahaha.

 

Serious discussion???

 

 

Bwahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahahah.

[duderonomy]

I haven't read an answer to my question yet that wasn't completely subjective.

I don't want to argue philosophies here, I'm asking a serious question.

[InspectoGeneral]

Sorry for the Bwhaaa. Deut. Tell hans to stop mocking my answers and I won't have to do that anymore.

[Amanda]

Duderonomy, I am NOT trying to say MY philosophy, but how I interpret these teachings... and agree with your line of thinking. It makes sense to me.

 

I was taught that 'grace' from God, was "unmerited favor". What does that mean?

IMO, it means that how can anyone be condemned for doing the best we know how to do? That does NOT mean we condone or excuse the behavior... because being accountable and responsible for what we do is how we change for the better.

If I call God a buttmunch, for example, I wouldn't merit His holy favor (unless it were true). But isn't that where grace would kick in, and I would have His favor anyway?

Ummmm... yes, IMO, that is how the myth goes...

And if Jesus died for all sins, then would God forgive me for calling Him a buttmunch? Would I have to ask for forgiveness? Why? Wouldn't God just forgive me even though I'm too stubborn to ask for it, because of His favor that I don't deserve? How about if I were too sinful to ask? Too dumb?

IMO, the moral of the story is that of course "God" automatically forgives us, and it is important that we understand that. It is us that needs to forgive others and our selves... for OUR OWN SELVES... not for our perpetrator! It seems the war between heaven and hell is within us, and the side that wins is the side we feed the most.

Wouldn't I just die and then wake up in Heaven anyway, because of God's grace?

You don't have to die to wake up in heaven! Think of heaven as a state of mind.

What does that say about those who are in Hell for not believing? Or for any one of the sins in the New Testament, let alone the Old that are offences to a Holy God?

Could we find a place where we have harmony with the divine? Just remember, God is within us. :wink:

In other words, do we only get grace that we don't deserve when we earn it? Do we only get grace that we don't deserve when we deserve it?

Grace, the understanding that everyone is doing their best, in the situation they're in, with the coping skills available to them, and if they would have known better, they would have done that. IMO, that understanding supercedes EVERYTHING and ANYTHING anyone does. Remember though, that is different than condoning or excusing the behavior, and still people have to be responsible for their actions... however, no one is condemned or unforgiven under this principle.

 

Just my $.02.

[Japedo]

God's grace cannot be understood apart from who God is. God is a person. Therefore His atributes can only be understood in light of who God is. God is also holy. God is also just.

 

Example:

 

Someone brakes into your house and kills one of your family members. They are found guilty

of murder. They stand before the judge and the judge tells them that they are guilty, but he is

going to let them off without consequence. What is wrong with this? There is no justice.

 

God must punish sin because He is just and holy. The explanation of who God is would be much more entailed than this. My only point is that God is a person and His attributes can't be understood in a vaccuum.

 

 

Do you think this is an accurate example? I'd like to know How you consider God Just?

"Grace" would be letting them off without consequence correct? Because the songod died for 3 days and paid for the crime already its given man grace (free pass) to pretty much have no consequences for actions. Your god dispenses lop sided justice. The Murderer could have no consequence and get a free pass to heaven for a simple prayer after his crime. A good honest moral person on the other hand who's biggest crime is doubt gets to spend eternity with the god of darkness in the pits of torment and flame. You trot this out as somehow Justice??

[chefranden]

God's grace cannot be understood apart from who God is. God is a person. Therefore His atributes can only be understood in light of who God is. God is also holy. God is also just.

 

Example:

 

1. Someone brakes into your house and kills one of your family members. They are found guilty

of murder. They stand before the judge and the judge tells them that they are guilty, but he is

going to let them off without consequence. What is wrong with this? There is no justice.

 

2. God must punish sin because He is just and holy. The explanation of who God is would be much more entailed than this. My only point is that God is a person and His attributes can't be understood in a vaccuum.

 

1. Well which is it? Does god preform justice or mercy? If mercy than God lets you of the hook without consequence except to the offended family. If I am the of the offended family I'm not going to be appeased if the judges hangs some guy that didn't do the deed, even if the judge declairs there everything is all better. I want the fucker that did it hung. The only way the normal Christian argument would make sense is if God is the fucker that did it.

 

This could well be the case because God creates everything and everything includes evil. The only way this makes sense is God died for his own sin, especially since God has said "The soul who sins is the one who will die."

 

2. You say "God must punish sin". If he actually does then well and good, except that he waits until the sweet by and by. Justice delayed is not justice at all. Since God has the power to prevent injustice By allowing injustice he is himself unjust in the same way you would be unjust if you had the power to undo or prevent injustice and refused to do so. In fact that sort of behavior will get you sent to the pokey (Matt 25:31-46)

 

And sorry, the so called free will argument does not work. Since God knows the intentions of your heart, he doesn't need to let you actually carry out your evil deed to know that you are a sinner. Indeed, according to some doctrine, you are born a sinner. There is no need for God to allow you to rape or murder in order to condemn you because you are already condemned

[duderonomy]

Amanda,

 

I see your points, and I have to apologize for not explaining my position well enough. Sometimes I assume that every Christian thinks like I did when I was a fundy. This comes from years of brainwashing...being told that the fundie way is the only way.

 

I should have started this thread by saying I was asking mostly fundie Christians to explain God's grace. Say I'm not doing my best because I'm a mean old bastard and just don't feel like it. Is there grace for me? See what I mean?

 

Inspecto... I said on another thread that you only posted the 'bwahaha' in response to my post. My bad! Now that I can see it without scrolling half way to the moon, I realize that I missed your first post here. Sorry. I think your answer is so much subjective baloney, but you did post one.

 

As for me telling Hans to quit mocking you, I'm in no position to do that, and wouldn't if I was. Besides, you make the same mistake I just admitted to...assuming that everyone knows where you stand when you answer. If God is a person, is He limited by time and space as we are? I don't think Han was mocking you so much as asking you to explain your assertion.

 

Mocking would sound more like "Inspecto, you are a thoughtless fucktard with less brains then your imaginary God gave to a camel's ass", or something similar. See the difference?

 

[Amanda]

 

 

Duderonomy, ya' don't think that Inspecto General is just someone from here doing a spoof?

 

Chefranden pointed out some good points here... as usual.

[duderonomy]

Amanda,

 

Yes I do. But there is a person behind the post, spoofing for a reason.

[freeday]

Amanda,

 

I see your points, and I have to apologize for not explaining my position well enough. Sometimes I assume that every Christian thinks like I did when I was a fundy. This comes from years of brainwashing...being told that the fundie way is the only way.

 

I should have started this thread by saying I was asking mostly fundie Christians to explain God's grace. Say I'm not doing my best because I'm a mean old bastard and just don't feel like it. Is there grace for me? See what I mean?

 

 

i didn't quite understand what you were wanting in the beginning, but with this question, i will take a stab at it. a lot of people will hide behind the blanket of "saved by grace" not by works.

 

but the Bible is abundantly clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Salvation is not gained by faith, and then maintained by works. Galatians 3:3, "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" If we are saved by faith, our salvation is also maintained and secured by faith.

 

so it is obvious that you can still sin, yet be saved. however, "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" (Romans 6:1-2). a cristian should always try to get rid of the one thing that separates us from Jesus, which is sin. we should try our best to be Christ-like, or one without sin.

 

God's grace doesn't give a liscense to sin, rather it give us the confidence to know that we are secure in our salvation if we do stumble and sin.

 

john 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." i am lead to believe that a person who continously sins and spits in the face of God, has lost thier faith or never truely believed in the first place.

 

if you truely believe in Christ and his purpose, maintaining your faith should be the most important thing in you life. not keep the idea do as you want because i am saved by grace.

[crazy-tiger]

john 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." i am lead to believe that a person who continously sins and spits in the face of God, has lost thier faith or never truely believed in the first place.

And since it's impossible to live without sinning in some way, that single verse proves that there is no such thing as a True Christian...

 

That proves that there will be a total of 0 people getting into heaven come judgement... that everyone ever born will be cast into the fires of Hell.

Remember, those that call his name, professing to be Christians will be turned away and told that he didn't know them, right before being thrown into Hell... prayers for forgiveness meaning nothing if you continue to sin.

 

 

Where's God's Grace now?

[duderonomy]

crazy tiger,

 

You are exactly correct. You will be told of course that that verse means to sin continualy, or on purpose or something, or you will directed to 'the original greek' meaning of the words.

 

Freeday,

Isn't 'having faith', and 'maintaining faith' the same as works? Of course 'having faith' is a work. It's something I have to do to be saved. Why doesn't God just save me, if it's all paid for anyway? I wasn't strong enough to keep 'the law', but now I have to 'maintain' my faith?

 

And again, what if I just don't want to have faith today. Would my grace from God and hence my salvation really be lost? Then what kind of 'unmerited favor' would that be? Now I not only have to work to keep my faith, and thus be saved by grace, but I also can lose this unmerited favor because I don't merit keeping it.

 

Do you suppose God will some day get rid of the faith-grace system for something better? That's what the book of Hebrews says He did with the law keeping system.

 

So now I have a God that 'will not repent (change His mind)', whos gifts and callings are also without repentence, changing His mind, and taking back a gift of salvation by grace because I didn't want to keep earning it keeping the faith.

 

WTF??

 

[freeday]

crazy tiger,

 

You are exactly correct. You will be told of course that that verse means to sin continualy, or on purpose or something, or you will directed to 'the original greek' meaning of the words.

 

Freeday,

Isn't 'having faith', and 'maintaining faith' the same as works? Of course 'having faith' is a work. It's something I have to do to be saved. Why doesn't God just save me, if it's all paid for anyway? I wasn't strong enough to keep 'the law', but now I have to 'maintain' my faith?

 

And again, what if I just don't want to have faith today. Would my grace from God and hence my salvation really be lost? Then what kind of 'unmerited favor' would that be? Now I not only have to work to keep my faith, and thus be saved by grace, but I also can lose this unmerited favor because I don't merit keeping it.

 

Do you suppose God will some day get rid of the faith-grace system for something better? That's what the book of Hebrews says He did with the law keeping system.

 

So now I have a God that 'will not repent (change His mind)', whos gifts and callings are also without repentence, changing His mind, and taking back a gift of salvation by grace because I didn't want to keep earning it keeping the faith.

 

WTF??

 

 

i would say the verse is a hyperbole or an overstatement, of course we are all going to sin, that is what God's grace is for. the problem i am seeing with your statement, is a slight delima. yes we will have days that we lose sight of God. no your salvation will not be lost because of it. but, if you believe in God, wouldn't you want to strengthen your faith each day?

 

i don't consider having faith and doing good works the same. you can't earn salvation. it is a free gift that you ask for. now, what you have to do to lose this gift, i really can't answer. i don't think it will be lost by an occasional slip up. which we are all guilty of. but i can tell you that God knows the hearts of men, and will judge us fairly according to our lives.

 

but once saved, knowing the gift of eternal life that Jesus proclaimed, why would you ever want to chose not to have faith today, assuming God's grace will cover it. Doesn't He deserve more.

[Skankboy]

but once saved, knowing the gift of eternal life that Jesus proclaimed, why would you ever want to chose not to have faith today, assuming God's grace will cover it. Doesn't He deserve more.

 

Nobody chooses to not have faith. You don't choose to loose your keys. You don't choose to not believe in santa claus.

 

Once you don't believe such a being exists, he doesn't deserve anything. I know I felt a deep sense of betrayal when I lost mine. Essentially, I'd devoted a HUGE portion of my life to what I now saw as a lie. Can you even appreciate how difficult that is to accept? At fist I was outraged that such a lie could be intentionally perpetuated. I don't think this anymore. I believe people can be honest and sincere in their beliefs...and still wrong.

 

I know you think the same of us, but please try to understand that we didn't choose this. Believe me, I was happy where I was. It's taken me alot of time, effort and tears to get where I am today, and I'm happy with where I've ended up.

 

IMOHO,

[Amanda]

Nobody chooses to not have faith. You don't choose to loose your keys. You don't choose to not believe in santa claus.

Skankboy, I thought when I came on here that I had taken a critical look at Christianity... and that it had to be understood in a way to make reasonable assertions. However, coming here helped me see that I was NOT as much of a critical thinker as I thought I was. Having said that... so lets say that we now know Santa Claus does not exist... the way we've been taught. (BTW, St. Nicholas was a real person.) So we throw away all the beliefs of a guy making a list of who's good and bad, who has elves making things for us in the NP, and of course the flying sled, etc.. Stripping away all that stuff, don't you think there is a 'spirit' there worth keeping? Actually getting rid of all that materialistic commercial stuff makes it more rewarding... just to be good for goodness sake, to have the joy in giving, helping, and reaching out. All that still makes sense, doesn't it? Don't we get to a point where we can appreciate that aspect of Santa Claus without the fear of being sucked back into those unreasonable beliefs? Of course, Santa Claus is not perpetrated through so many aspects of our society, like church every Sunday, etc.. Do you think there can be a proper place where the 'spirit' of Santa Claus can still be valued to some degree?

 

It's taken me alot of time, effort and tears to get where I am today, and I'm happy with where I've ended up.

It shows in your posts, for which I have tremendous respect!

[Ouroboros]

Sorry for the Bwhaaa. Deut. Tell hans to stop mocking my answers and I won't have to do that anymore.

No, I'm serious. I mocked you in hope of making you wake up and think about what you said.

 

How can you call "God" for a "Person"?

 

A Person to me is an individual that is limited, bound by a body, bound by physical laws and can only communicate through hands, body language and sound. A person is finite in time, power, space and intellect.

 

Are you saying by this statement that God is powerless, knows very little, can only be at one place at a time, is not a spirit, etc...?

 

Anyway, I know that the trinity is defined as "God as three persons". But that doesn't make God a person.

 

Okay, I'm not going to sidetrack this issue, I just wanted to explain. I think the epithet "person" is extremely unfitting for the idea of "god".

[Skankboy]

Do you think there can be a proper place where the 'spirit' of Santa Claus can still be valued to some degree?

 

Of course Amanda. The biggest issue we have today is all of the cultural baggage that's been attached to christian philosophy. Notice I say philosophy, not theology.

 

There are many teachings in the christian religion that are good, but I think many would disagree as to exactly the "spirit" of jesus would be in this case. Is it the golden rule? If so, great!

 

I'm with you Amanda, I love the "spirit" of santa claus (giving, family, good cheer in the face of the darkest night)... just don't ask me to change my values because someone believes he really does "see you when you're sleeping..."

 

[Amanda]

Skankboy, does Buddhism have a concept similar to grace? If so, would you please explain the general idea of it?

 

I really like Buddhism, however, it is difficult for me to read and understand its concepts. I don't know if that is because it has been culturally estranged by my upbringing... or if it's what I'm afraid of... because it is just plain over my head!

 

[freeday]

but once saved, knowing the gift of eternal life that Jesus proclaimed, why would you ever want to chose not to have faith today, assuming God's grace will cover it. Doesn't He deserve more.

 

Nobody chooses to not have faith. You don't choose to loose your keys. You don't choose to not believe in santa claus.

 

Once you don't believe such a being exists, he doesn't deserve anything. I know I felt a deep sense of betrayal when I lost mine. Essentially, I'd devoted a HUGE portion of my life to what I now saw as a lie. Can you even appreciate how difficult that is to accept? At fist I was outraged that such a lie could be intentionally perpetuated. I don't think this anymore. I believe people can be honest and sincere in their beliefs...and still wrong.

 

I know you think the same of us, but please try to understand that we didn't choose this. Believe me, I was happy where I was. It's taken me alot of time, effort and tears to get where I am today, and I'm happy with where I've ended up.

 

IMOHO,

 

i am at a loss for words, i understand how upsetting it could be. i think i cried when i found out santa clause wasn't real, and i had only beleived in him for a few short years.

 

i would look at it as a long term relationship that didn't work out. you might be upsett it didn't work out, but you still learned something from it.

 

how did you feel betrayed, i would look at it as something gained, wether it is real or not.

 

 

Sorry for the Bwhaaa. Deut. Tell hans to stop mocking my answers and I won't have to do that anymore.

No, I'm serious. I mocked you in hope of making you wake up and think about what you said.

 

How can you call "God" for a "Person"?

 

A Person to me is an individual that is limited, bound by a body, bound by physical laws and can only communicate through hands, body language and sound. A person is finite in time, power, space and intellect.

 

Are you saying by this statement that God is powerless, knows very little, can only be at one place at a time, is not a spirit, etc...?

 

Anyway, I know that the trinity is defined as "God as three persons". But that doesn't make God a person.

 

Okay, I'm not going to sidetrack this issue, I just wanted to explain. I think the epithet "person" is extremely unfitting for the idea of "god".

 

i completely agree with you on this one hans.