God's Grace

[Skankboy]

i would look at it as a long term relationship that didn't work out. you might be upsett it didn't work out, but you still learned something from it.

 

how did you feel betrayed, i would look at it as something gained, wether it is real or not.

 

Freeday,

 

First let me start by saying how much appreciate the candor in your responses to me.

 

For me, it wasn't like losing a long term relationship, it was find out the person you were having the relationship didn't even exist in the first place!

 

I guess I felt betrayed because so many people I respected and trusted (including myself) confirmed this belief (christianity) in me every day. Indeed, when I first deconverted, I felt like the betrayer of their trust. But, I didn't feel betrayed by god, I didn't think he existed anymore.

 

Of course I feel I gained something from those years. To deny my experiences would be to deny myself and who I am today. To do that would be a betrayal on the level of which I am not able to comprehend.

 

Hope that helps...

IMOHO,

[freeday]

i would look at it as a long term relationship that didn't work out. you might be upsett it didn't work out, but you still learned something from it.

 

how did you feel betrayed, i would look at it as something gained, wether it is real or not.

 

Freeday,

 

First let me start by saying how much appreciate the candor in your responses to me.

 

For me, it wasn't like losing a long term relationship, it was find out the person you were having the relationship didn't even exist in the first place!

 

I guess I felt betrayed because so many people I respected and trusted (including myself) confirmed this belief (christianity) in me every day. Indeed, when I first deconverted, I felt like the betrayer of their trust. But, I didn't feel betrayed by god, I didn't think he existed anymore.

 

Of course I feel I gained something from those years. To deny my experiences would be to deny myself and who I am today. To do that would be a betrayal on the level of which I am not able to comprehend.

 

Hope that helps...

IMOHO,

 

it helps, just asking, how many of your friends are christian. when you deconverted, did they remain your friends?

 

to me it sounds like your feelings of betrayal are coming from the feelings of guilt that you percieved when you went against your friends beliefs (christians). as if you felt they would no longer accept you because of what you believed to be different than thiers.

 

this is very normal, i think as humans we always want to conform to the society, we want to fit in and be friends with people. we have a desire to be liked by people.

[Skankboy]

it helps, just asking, how many of your friends are christian. when you deconverted, did they remain your friends?

 

to me it sounds like your feelings of betrayal are coming from the feelings of guilt that you percieved when you went against your friends beliefs (christians). as if you felt they would no longer accept you because of what you believed to be different than thiers.

 

this is very normal, i think as humans we always want to conform to the society, we want to fit in and be friends with people. we have a desire to be liked by people.

 

I would say that before I deconverted, about 75% of my friends were active christians. After I deconverted I did lose many of them (a lot simply because I'd only really seen them before at church functions, etc), but a few are still my friends to this day. I would say the percentage has probably reversed and about 25% of my friends now are christians.

 

You're probably right about the guilt/betrayal feelings I had. I had a few "friends" from then that definitely treated me like an outsider and that probably hurt almost as much as the loss of faith itself.

 

Community is probably one of the strongest allures of christianity in america today. Luckily, I found this place...

[Skankboy]

Skankboy, does Buddhism have a concept similar to grace? If so, would you please explain the general idea of it?

 

Amanda,

 

I'm soooo sorry I didn't get back to this sooner. I completely missed your response when I reading through earlier...

 

Buddhist grace? Hmm, I'm not sure. I guess it would depend on the specific type of grace you mean.

 

Do you mean a kind of divine mercy? Or maybe a form of spiritual protection (saving grace)? Or forgivness to those who don't deserve it?

 

I guess the closest I can think of right off is the Boddhisatva of the Mahayana Buddhist traditions. These are "saints" how are supposed to have reached the brink of nirvana and then returned to the world to teach the path to others. After their passing, many are treated just like the saints of catholicism and people will pray to them hoping for help, guidance, forgiveness, etc.

 

In the Theravada tradition (the one I follow), I guess the "forgiving" aspect would be most appropriate. To not forgive is to hold a grudge. A grudge is a form of attachment and so needs to be expunged to move on in your path.

 

I'm not sure if that's what you meant Amanda, but please let me know if I can clarify in any way...

 

IMOHO,

[Amanda]

In the Theravada tradition (the one I follow), I guess the "forgiving" aspect would be most appropriate. To not forgive is to hold a grudge. A grudge is a form of attachment and so needs to be expunged to move on in your path.

 

I'm not sure if that's what you meant Amanda, but please let me know if I can clarify in any way...

 

IMOHO,

Skankboy... don't worry about the oversight. I could tell that you were already engaged in other posts... and this probably wasn't the only thread in which you are participating. I knew I would probably get the opportunity to ask you again.

 

I love these concepts in Buddhism, and I suppose even their names get me confused. It would be a lot easier for me if they just called everyone Tom, Dick, and Harry. lol

 

It seems from what you have shared, this is quite similar. IMO, grace is a concept that enables letting go of ill feelings associated with an event, including a victim mentality... yet, without condoning or necessarily excusing a behavior. IMO, it is a self empowering process. Does Buddhism give you a path in which one can accomplish this releasing of an attachment?

 

Also, I've heard that Buddha says that the root of all suffering is attachment. However, would this include an attachment to your child, your family, etc.? I can see where this would apply to materialistic things.

 

[Skankboy]

It seems from what you have shared, this is quite similar. IMO, grace is a concept that enables letting go of ill feelings associated with an event, including a victim mentality... yet, without condoning or necessarily excusing a behavior. IMO, it is a self empowering process. Does Buddhism give you a path in which one can accomplish this releasing of an attachment?

 

Also, I've heard that Buddha says that the root of all suffering is attachment. However, would this include an attachment to your child, your family, etc.? I can see where this would apply to materialistic things.

 

Lol...don't feel bad. Even I have to look up the spelling sometimes!

 

I think you have a very good grasp of exactly what I was talking about, especially the "without condoning or necessarily excusing a behavior."

 

You are also correct in that the Buddha's primary teaching is that desire (attachment) is the root of all suffering. The main idea is that since nothing is permanent, anything you place that much importance on will eventually dissapear and you will suffer for it's loss. The only to avoid this is to minimize these attachments as much as possible, to remove them all is the achieve nirvana.

 

Now, I personally know that by this standard, I'm not a very good Buddhist. Like you were saying, I am very much attached to my family. But though I know I don't have the dedication or desire to persue this philosophy to its obvious end, I really don't think it matters either. If there is karma and reincarnation (which I don't personally believe), I'll be back and get to try again (with all the sorrows and joys that entails). If there isn't, then I'll have dedicated a good part of my life to self-actualization and the minimizing of unhealthy attachments (esp the material aspects you spoke of).

 

Personally, that doesn't sound to bad too me. So as not to hijack the thread I'll try to bring this back to grace. I'd say the biggest difference between Chrisianity and Therevada buddhism is that "grace" must come from the individual and not from an external source...

 

IMOHO,

[Vigile]

Sorry for the Bwhaaa. Deut. Tell hans to stop mocking my answers and I won't have to do that anymore.

 

what are you, 3yo?

[Amanda]

I'd say the biggest difference between Chrisianity and Therevada buddhism is that "grace" must come from the individual and not from an external source...

Skankboy, in the way I've studied these NT teachings, this grace has to come from within the person also. "God", who gives this grace is within us, part of us, and has to work through us. The war between heaven and hell is in our mind, and the side that wins is the side we feed the most... hence, karma. IMO and many others too, the character we've come to call Jesus would be considered more Buddhist than anything else today. Much of the differences I see in the NT and Buddhism are the people's names are easier, and the concepts aren't quite so deep. Maybe my next life time, I'll actually be able to be a Buddhist.

[Skankboy]

True Amanda, with your perspective, the two teachings could be seen as very similar. Like I said, I have no illusions that some Buddhists wouldn't consider a very good one, but I think it's all in the interpretion and getting from it what makes it work for you. If you're more comfortable with the christian mythos, go with that. I guess I had so many negative connentations w/christianity in general that I was unable to see it the way you do now...

[freeday]

I'd say the biggest difference between Chrisianity and Therevada buddhism is that "grace" must come from the individual and not from an external source...

Skankboy, in the way I've studied these NT teachings, this grace has to come from within the person also. "God", who gives this grace is within us, part of us, and has to work through us. The war between heaven and hell is in our mind, and the side that wins is the side we feed the most... hence, karma. IMO and many others too, the character we've come to call Jesus would be considered more Buddhist than anything else today. Much of the differences I see in the NT and Buddhism are the people's names are easier, and the concepts aren't quite so deep. Maybe my next life time, I'll actually be able to be a Buddhist.

 

 

if i am reading this right, i don't think i disagree with you on this one, i think that when asked, the spirit resides in us. or God's grace resides in us. i don't know much about buddhism, so i can't compare Jesus' teachings to thiers.

[Skankboy]

if i am reading this right, i don't think i disagree with you on this one, i think that when asked, the spirit resides in us. or God's grace resides in us. i don't know much about buddhism, so i can't compare Jesus' teachings to thiers.

I think you're on the right track Freeday. The main difference that I can see is that in buddhism, grace isn't something that's bestowed upon from an outside source ("the spirit resides in us.") Rather, it's a learned skill that you must work on and be aware of in your dealings with the world around you.

 

IMOHO,

[duderonomy]

Sure, I could live without toilet paper, money, love, sex, family, and all these other trappings of this mortal humanity.

 

I would, however, love to have a Buddhist report back to me, after having given up all desire for air and food, as attachments are what keeps us from Nirvana.

 

IMHO, there is no grace from God, god, the fat bellied boy with incense smoldering in his crotch, sacred cows, or any thing else 'beyond'.

 

If there were some enlightened being dispensing grace, we wouldn't have to guess about it. If we have to guess or speculate, then those ideas came from us, and mean nothing more than a good Chevy vs. Ford debate.

 

IMHO.

[Amanda]

IMHO, there is no grace from God, god, the fat bellied boy with incense smoldering in his crotch, sacred cows, or any thing else 'beyond'..

Duderonomy... okay, I can understand all that.

 

However, what if God is a part of ourself? Maybe we are just ultimately debating symantics? Is there a part of us that calls us to a higher standard? Sure we can enjoy the experience of being mortal! But do we do it at the expense of others and ourself?

 

Grace seems to be something that has to come from within us, an insight or revelation that allows us to let go of negative feelings we harbor for ourself or others, that only hurt ourself. It doesn't help us if it comes from an outside source, does it? How could grace from an outside source help?

 

There are people that believe in these teachings that have come to be associated to a guy we call Buddha, however, did you know that many Buddhist do not believe in God?

 

BTW, I do think that all these teachings came from people too!

 

IMOHO.

[duderonomy]

Amanda,

 

I originally started out talking about 'God's grace' and how far does it go, whom does it cover and when, etc, as a question for Christians to answer and others to put their 2 cents about it. I meant not if we humans had grace, but if we were under the protection, as it were, of the Christian God's 'Grace'.

 

I don't know enough about Buddhism to even pretend to know what I'm talking about there!

[Skankboy]

I don't know enough about Buddhism to even pretend to know what I'm talking about there!

My fault entirely, sorry about that.

 

I meant not if we humans had grace, but if we were under the protection, as it were, of the Christian God's 'Grace'.

 

Ok, I think I see what you mean. Here's defintion #8 from Dictionary.com, let me know if it's close:

 

8. a. Divine love and protection bestowed freely on people.

b. The state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God.

c. An excellence or power granted by God.

The other definitions seem to deal more with what we were talking about before or else physical grace. My guess, is you were shooting for mostly "b" and a little of "a"?

 

Sorry for the hijacking, I'll be good, I promise...

 

IMOHO,

[Amanda]

Amanda,

 

I originally started out talking about 'God's grace' and how far does it go, whom does it cover and when, etc, as a question for Christians to answer and others to put their 2 cents about it. I meant not if we humans had grace, but if we were under the protection, as it were, of the Christian God's 'Grace'.

 

I don't know enough about Buddhism to even pretend to know what I'm talking about there!

 

Duderonomy, I suppose it is how you define "Christians". Many people think that the majority of people that call themselves "Christians" do NOT follow these teachings allocated to a character called "Jesus". I've heard that Ghandi has said that he likes Christ, but he doesn't like our Christians.

 

IMO, 'God's grace' is for EVERYONE and goes past anything we can do! It does not mean that we aren't held accountable for our actions though. It just means that we are not condemned for it, understanding that others and our self are only doing our best. How can we condemn someone for not doing better than their best? Further, in these NT teachings, it is pointing to God being a part within us ALL. Hence, grace is an understanding coming from within us, for our self and for others. This nature of grace allows us to be free from guilt, and releases others to be free from guilt by our own perspective. It is a way of seeking accountability and restitution, without holding on to venictiveness and retribution. The latter only hurts our self.

 

There are other perspectives to this from other spiritual teachings too. I was just comparing this ideology with the Buddhist's teachings. I think the character portrayed by "Jesus" would be considered more Buddhist today than anything else. It's just that these teachings attributed to "Jesus" are easier to understand than Buddhism, which often seems quite deep and complicated to me, although probably more beneficial. I love to read posts from people like Skankboy, because he seems to explain it more on my level. Thanks for that!

 

Of course "Christians" have a tendency to say that grace is just for them, who believe and act a certain way... and that some behaviors, like disbelief, will not be covered by grace.

[Skankboy]

I love to read posts from people like Skankboy, because he seems to explain it more on my level. Thanks for that!

I thought my ears were burning!

 

Please don't think I "dumb down" anything for you Amanda, what I write here is pretty much stream-of-consciousness stuff with very little editing. I think words are the hardest part about understanding. It's like the topic of this thread: "Grace"

 

It's one of those words that has a different defintion for each person you ask. How is it really possible to even use a word like this and expect others to understand your own intent?

 

When I was a kid, we used to say "grace" before dinner. It was essentially us thanking god for what we had and beseeching him to allow us to continue in this regard. But how does this work into any of the definitions of grace we've discussed so far? The hoping for divine protection might be implied in the latter part of my example, but the main part of the act was most definitely "thanking" god. So I'm not sure. I think my point here is that "grace" is nebulous a term that we may never be able to get a single answer for Duder's question.

 

But by all means, I'm happy to speak on any aspect that appeals to everyone here...

 

IMOHO,

[freeday]

If there were some enlightened being dispensing grace, we wouldn't have to guess about it. If we have to guess or speculate, then those ideas came from us, and mean nothing more than a good Chevy vs. Ford debate.

 

IMHO.

 

how did i miss this post. you just explained it right there. ford is the devil, while chevy is God. and the Ls1 is the messiah that saves us from the slow ass 4.8lt V8. and horsepower is the grace that saves our souls. the more money that you sacrifice to the almighty Ls1 the faster the messiah will lead you away from the devil.

 

now we are speaking on my terms.

[freeday]

Amanda,

 

I originally started out talking about 'God's grace' and how far does it go, whom does it cover and when, etc, as a question for Christians to answer and others to put their 2 cents about it. I meant not if we humans had grace, but if we were under the protection, as it were, of the Christian God's 'Grace'.

 

I don't know enough about Buddhism to even pretend to know what I'm talking about there!

 

Duderonomy, I suppose it is how you define "Christians". Many people think that the majority of people that call themselves "Christians" do NOT follow these teachings allocated to a character called "Jesus". I've heard that Ghandi has said that he likes Christ, but he doesn't like our Christians.

 

IMO, 'God's grace' is for EVERYONE and goes past anything we can do! It does not mean that we aren't held accountable for our actions though. It just means that we are not condemned for it, understanding that others and our self are only doing our best. How can we condemn someone for not doing better than their best? Further, in these NT teachings, it is pointing to God being a part within us ALL. Hence, grace is an understanding coming from within us, for our self and for others. This nature of grace allows us to be free from guilt, and releases others to be free from guilt by our own perspective. It is a way of seeking accountability and restitution, without holding on to venictiveness and retribution. The latter only hurts our self.

 

There are other perspectives to this from other spiritual teachings too. I was just comparing this ideology with the Buddhist's teachings. I think the character portrayed by "Jesus" would be considered more Buddhist today than anything else. It's just that these teachings attributed to "Jesus" are easier to understand than Buddhism, which often seems quite deep and complicated to me, although probably more beneficial. I love to read posts from people like Skankboy, because he seems to explain it more on my level. Thanks for that!

 

Of course "Christians" have a tendency to say that grace is just for them, who believe and act a certain way... and that some behaviors, like disbelief, will not be covered by grace.

 

i am really agreeing with you on this, especially the free from guilt. but could you explain what you meant by seeking accountability and restitution, without holding on to venictiveness.

 

not sure how that falls under grace. are you trying to say that we should feel a sense of accountability. that our actions that do not produce a negative accountability will give us God's grace. this is a very "Gray" area.

[Amanda]

i am really agreeing with you on this, especially the free from guilt. but could you explain what you meant by seeking accountability and restitution, without holding on to venictiveness.

 

not sure how that falls under grace. are you trying to say that we should feel a sense of accountability. that our actions that do not produce a negative accountability will give us God's grace. this is a very "Gray" area.

 

Hi Freeday! Hope your move to a new city has been a pleasant experience!

 

IMO, grace is the understanding that our perpetrators know not what they do. Everyone is doing the best they know how, in the situation they are in, with the coping skills available to them at the time. If they would have known a better way, they would have done that! Perceptions that are embedded into our subconscious are often a driving force that can not be harnessed/stopped at a particular time in that person's life.

 

If we can understand what can make our perpetrator act in such a way, we can then see that the perpetrator is really the victim, releasing us from being the victim and erasing the victim mentality concerning ourself from our thinking! Our perpetrator, not having this understanding of the many perpetrators in their own life, probably led them or contributed to do the offense!

 

Grace is just the understanding that everyone is doing the best they know how! It therefore ends condemning guilt, however, it still holds all of us accountable for our behavior in a way that changes us to be a better person. Just because I understand that a person has their own problem that caused them to act this way, I can be forgiving through 'grace'... understand and let go of vendictive emotions of retribution within me, perhaps this process is stopping me to become a perpetrator. Yet I can still refuse to condone or excuse the behavior! Nor should I necessarily release their accountability and responsibility for it! Can't you see how someone can understand that terrible situations in people's lives cause them to do such unacceptable things, letting go of these hate filled emotions for that person(forgiveness), yet still hold them accountable and responsible for their behavior ? Just because I understand why they do something is NOT a reason to enable them to continue this offensive action! If I respect and validate myself and others, I might very well be justified to still press charges in certain situations, AND still be forgiving them through 'grace' too!

 

Once I had a lady say to a group of us that she caught her husband having sex with her teen age daughter, from a previous marriage, and he even bought her a car! She asked our opinion of what she should do. I said, forgive him all the way to the police station where you press charges. She said she couldn't do that, because he pays all the bills. I asked her what she is saying about and to her daughter and the rest of the family if she doesn't?

[freeday]

i am really agreeing with you on this, especially the free from guilt. but could you explain what you meant by seeking accountability and restitution, without holding on to venictiveness.

 

not sure how that falls under grace. are you trying to say that we should feel a sense of accountability. that our actions that do not produce a negative accountability will give us God's grace. this is a very "Gray" area.

 

Hi Freeday! Hope your move to a new city has been a pleasant experience!

 

IMO, grace is the understanding that our perpetrators know not what they do. Everyone is doing the best they know how, in the situation they are in, with the coping skills available to them at the time. If they would have known a better way, they would have done that! Perceptions that are embedded into our subconscious are often a driving force that can not be harnessed/stopped at a particular time in that person's life.

 

If we can understand what can make our perpetrator act in such a way, we can then see that the perpetrator is really the victim, releasing us from being the victim and erasing the victim mentality concerning ourself from our thinking! Our perpetrator, not having this understanding of the many perpetrators in their own life, probably led them or contributed to do the offense!

 

Grace is just the understanding that everyone is doing the best they know how! It therefore ends condemning guilt, however, it still holds all of us accountable for our behavior in a way that changes us to be a better person. Just because I understand that a person has their own problem that caused them to act this way, I can be forgiving through 'grace'... understand and let go of vendictive emotions of retribution within me, perhaps this process is stopping me to become a perpetrator. Yet I can still refuse to condone or excuse the behavior! Nor should I necessarily release their accountability and responsibility for it! Can't you see how someone can understand that terrible situations in people's lives cause them to do such unacceptable things, letting go of these hate filled emotions for that person(forgiveness), yet still hold them accountable and responsible for their behavior ? Just because I understand why they do something is NOT a reason to enable them to continue this offensive action! If I respect and validate myself and others, I might very well be justified to still press charges in certain situations, AND still be forgiving them through 'grace' too!

 

Once I had a lady say to a group of us that she caught her husband having sex with her teen age daughter, from a previous marriage, and he even bought her a car! She asked our opinion of what she should do. I said, forgive him all the way to the police station where you press charges. She said she couldn't do that, because he pays all the bills. I asked her what she is saying about and to her daughter and the rest of the family if she doesn't?

 

you are wise beyond my years. in reading what you wrote, that is right alongside of what i believe. you just have a better understanding of it than i do. we normally phrase it, hate the sin, love the sinner.

 

as far as moving, i am currently homeless, they haven't finished my new house yet. will not be done untill mid sept. living with family sucks.

[duderonomy]

Amanda and Skankboy,

Since no fundies other than Freeday have responded, feel free to keep going. It's good reading, and you haven't hijacked anything!

 

Now as to Freeday... I'm afraid their is no hope for you. You forget that with Ford, one model year is as a hundred model years. You got your facts mixed up and you have blasphemed the Holy Ford.

 

May Henry have mercy on your soul. Fords rule, other than that slight rust problem in the sixties and seventies, and of course the oil leaking thing. Oh, and the Pinto (bang!) and the Maverick.

 

You can have your Shivvy with it's Grandma and Grandpa appeal, but if you are a real man like me, that exhaust coming up through the floorboards, the lusty feel of a car that just wouldn't quit if it were dragging a thousand dead mufflers, the heady adrenelin rush of 'will it start', and the flying by the seat of your pants excitment of mushy brakes and a slipping clutch at rush hour keeps me praying. and that is something Ford would never do if it were indeed the Devil!

 

[freeday]

Amanda and Skankboy,

Since no fundies other than Freeday have responded, feel free to keep going. It's good reading, and you haven't hijacked anything!

 

Now as to Freeday... I'm afraid their is no hope for you. You forget that with Ford, one model year is as a hundred model years. You got your facts mixed up and you have blasphemed the Holy Ford.

 

May Henry have mercy on your soul. Fords rule, other than that slight rust problem in the sixties and seventies, and of course the oil leaking thing. Oh, and the Pinto (bang!) and the Maverick.

 

You can have your Shivvy with it's Grandma and Grandpa appeal, but if you are a real man like me, that exhaust coming up through the floorboards, the lusty feel of a car that just wouldn't quit if it were dragging a thousand dead mufflers, the heady adrenelin rush of 'will it start', and the flying by the seat of your pants excitment of mushy brakes and a slipping clutch at rush hour keeps me praying. and that is something Ford would never do if it were indeed the Devil!

 

 

i was just picking with you, i love all fast cars, but i drive a chevy so it is natural for me to add fuel to the ford vs chevy rivallry.

 

but. i will bow down to the holy ford when i have one beat me. my record remains

 

ls1= 3 4.8lt =0

[Amanda]

 

 

Gosh, you guys get to have ALL the fun!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Abiyoyo]

I was taught that 'grace' from God, was "unmerited favor". What does that mean?

 

If I call God a buttmunch, for example, I wouldn't merit His holy favor (unless it were true). But isn't that where grace would kick in, and I would have His favor anyway? And if Jesus died for all sins, then would God forgive me for calling Him a buttmunch? Would I have to ask for forgiveness? Why? Wouldn't God just forgive me even though I'm too stubborn to ask for it, because of His favor that I don't deserve? How about if I were too sinful to ask? Too dumb? Wouldn't I just die and then wake up in Heaven anyway, because of God's grace?

 

What does that say about those who are in Hell for not believing? Or for any one of the sins in the New Testament, let alone the Old that are offences to a Holy God?

 

In other words, do we only get grace that we don't deserve when we earn it? Do we only get grace that we don't deserve when we deserve it?

 

 

 

Depends on how you put grace, favor, and God into application.