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What Would It Take For You To Believe In God?


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What would it take for you to believe in the Judeo/Christian God?

 

with one stipulation…

 

 

For those of you who refuse to believe in an all intelligent being whom Christians call God, who created the universe and all that resides in it, and who loves mankind enough to personally dwell in each of our hearts after confessing we are sinners trusting Jesus for salvation, what conditions would you require to personally believe in this God?

 

 

Now, go ahead and list your conditions and requirements that you feel you would need to begin placing belief in this God, but I have only one stipulation: At no time in this dimension can you physically see God.

 

 

Yes, the stipulation must be the same exact reality that exists today, that no man can see God or ever can see God on this side of life. So what other conditions would you demand in order to accept as true the God of the bible?

 

 

Atheists have always claimed the Christian concept of an omnipotent deity is unintelligible….how would you make Him intelligible without physically seeing Him?

 

 

 

Here are some helpful terms and definitions that may possibly assist you in your response:

 

Atheists (those who assert there is no God)

Agnostics (those who believe it is impossible to know whether there is a God)

Ignostics (the view that the question of whether or not a deity exists is inherently meaningless)

Antitheists (those who directly oppose theism)

Naturalists (those who claim the supernatural is either nonexistent, unknowable, or not inherently different from natural phenomena)

 

 

 

 

 

looking forward to your responses

 

chaz

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What would it take for you to believe in the Judeo/Christian God?

 

with one stipulation…

 

 

For those of you who refuse to believe in an all intelligent being whom Christians call God, who created the universe and all that resides in it, and who loves mankind enough to personally dwell in each of our hearts after confessing we are sinners trusting Jesus for salvation, what conditions would you require to personally believe in this God?

 

 

Now, go ahead and list your conditions and requirements that you feel you would need to begin placing belief in this God, but I have only one stipulation: At no time in this dimension can you physically see God.

 

 

Yes, the stipulation must be the same exact reality that exists today, that no man can see God or ever can see God on this side of life. So what other conditions would you demand in order to accept as true the God of the bible?

 

 

Atheists have always claimed the Christian concept of an omnipotent deity is unintelligible….how would you make Him intelligible without physically seeing Him?

 

 

 

Here are some helpful terms and definitions that may possibly assist you in your response:

 

Atheists (those who assert there is no God)

Agnostics (those who believe it is impossible to know whether there is a God)

Ignostics (the view that the question of whether or not a deity exists is inherently meaningless)

Antitheists (those who directly oppose theism)

Naturalists (those who claim the supernatural is either nonexistent, unknowable, or not inherently different from natural phenomena)

 

 

 

 

 

looking forward to your responses

 

chaz

 

 

Good question! I would have to feel his overwhelming presence. Some sign of having my prayers answered would need to be evident. (I gave up fucking praying long ago). Like the fuckin fundies say " I would need to be saved" I found jesus or some other ridiculous saying would have to overwhelm my being ( not gonna happen!)

Why is god so mysterious? Why doesn't he make himself known and then this would assure faith.

I was at our church picnic and I noticed the same parishoners. They age, get sick and die like the rest of us . In all honesty, they really seem no happier, maybe even more miserable than most folks although this is my personal observation.

Tough question to answer. Maybe if I could walk on water that would convince me.Since my deconversion, I really find no difference in my life and I have a fuckin great block of free time on Sundays now! Take Care.

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Guest Shiva H. Vishnu

I would require the same stimulus that convinced Abraham, Elijah, David, Mohammud, Zoroaster, Joseph Smith, et al. It should be easy for god. He knows intimately exactly what it would take for each of us to believe. If we don't believe it's because he doesn't want us to, if he exists.

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Now, go ahead and list your conditions and requirements that you feel you would need to begin placing belief in this God, but I have only one stipulation: At no time in this dimension can you physically see God.

 

 

Yes, the stipulation must be the same exact reality that exists today, that no man can see God or ever can see God on this side of life. So what other conditions would you demand in order to accept as true the God of the bible?

 

 

Small problem with your 'stipulation', as a person I deserve no less than the people of the Bible. The patriarchs didn't have to have blind faith and neither than the disciples. Paul had a vision/hallucination and you take his version to heart. IOW, your stipulation sucks. If god can show himself and speak audibly in the bible, he can do it for me. But let me ask you this Chaz: If I came out with ramblings about god in todays time that told me to kill people, (i.e. David, Solomon, etc.) in the name of God...would you believe it? If I, like Paul had visions of jesus, would you take my word for it or call the people in the little ambulance to wrap me in a straight jacket?

 

Moses, Abraham, Lot, David, the disciples all got 'miracles', I'm no less worthy of a miracle either.

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"God" would have to look into my heart/mind/"soul" and figure out whatever stipulation(s) I might have in order for me to believe in him once again and do them. Simple. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

I can tell you that one of those stipulations is that he can't just deal with me as an individual but he must deal with all people as a group at the same exact time so there is no room for misunderstandings. "God" probably won't be dropping by my place anytime soon.

 

mwc

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I have to go with the same answer as Shiva here.

 

Whatever was good enough for God to do to convince Noah, Abraham, Moses, the prophets, Thomas and Paul should be enough. Or what I think would be most convincing is if God would do what he did with the disciples. 3 years of miracles and full teachings of all the mysteries. I waited 30 years to get into that kind of life, asked for it, prayed for it. But God doesn't answer the prayers where we ask for more faith or miracles. But if God could do it for so many in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, then he know he only needs to do the same for me.

 

And if you wonder about my label, I'm a non-theist, which included atheists, agnostics, ignostics and non-cognitivists, etc. I think all of them have insightful views. I especially have a hard time accepting a god that when defined and described can be proven inconsistent.

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Chaz,

 

First, I'll assume that by "god" you mean the judeochristian one, and not one of the other hundreds of gods that people have believed in.

 

With all due respect, your OP sounds like a pitch from a new car salesman. "What would it take for me to put you in this brand new Jeezusmobile today?!"

 

Chaz, if you knew what atheism was all about, you would already have the answer to your question.

 

You've stipulated that at no time could I physically see god in this dimension. (Actually, if god wanted all his creation to know him, I don't think that would be too much to ask.) Okay, Chaz, if I can't see god, then show me a soul.

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For those of you who refuse to believe in an all intelligent being whom Christians call God, who created the universe and all that resides in it, and who loves mankind enough to personally dwell in each of our hearts after confessing we are sinners trusting Jesus for salvation, what conditions would you require to personally believe in this God?

 

1. That God exists.

2. That there is objective evidence for him.

3. That this evidence is verifiable and coherent.

 

Now, go ahead and list your conditions and requirements that you feel you would need to begin placing belief in this God, but I have only one stipulation: At no time in this dimension can you physically see God.

 

What does that even mean?

Yes, the stipulation must be the same exact reality that exists today, that no man can see God or ever can see God on this side of life. So what other conditions would you demand in order to accept as true the God of the bible?

 

What about Jesus? What about the people who say they DID see the face of God?

 

Atheists have always claimed the Christian concept of an omnipotent deity is unintelligible….how would you make Him intelligible without physically seeing Him?

 

How do you make black holes intelligible without physically seeing them? This is a stupid question.

 

Why should I make him intelligible? He's your God.

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Why should I make him intelligible? He's your God.

Thank you for your reply.

 

 

If you are faced with an impending judgment, even though you don’t consider the threat valid, don’t you think it is wise to prove or disprove this judgment?

 

 

For example, if a weather forecaster has issued a hurricane warning for the region you live in, do you simply heed his warning just because he told you so, and then evacuate? Or, will you attempt to prove in some manner, however uncomplicated it may be, that his warning is valid before you evacuate?

 

 

chaz

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Well Chaz, I became a xian because at the time I believed that god was real, that xianity was the truth, I really did think that jesus was the son of god and the whole shebang. But as I got along further and further into my life as a xian, I realized that I couldn't have a "relationship" with an invisible being. God did not communicate with me, and prayer and bible reading are not communication, its like calling up your best friend and never hearing her say anything back, that's what prayer and reading the bible was to me.

 

I don't believe that one religion is right simply because how can anyone really know? Everyone insists they have found the truth but no one really has. We all have our own version of reality. How can any god punish a human being for choosing a religion only to die and in the end find out that they chose the wrong one? The thought of that is disgusting. I suppose all the non-xians who were in the Holocaust ended up in hell just because they didn't accept jesus? That repels me even more.

 

As a xian I really didn't have conditions for god, all I wanted was god to love me and to be real, to communicate with me and to have a relationship with my creator. Was that so much to ask? Not really. But I found that there is no creator who cares and if there is, then I don't see what good it is in life because we are on our own. And you know what I've found? I'm all right. I've realized I've "been doing life" all on my own and I haven't sunk yet.

 

I also got sick of going on faith alone, and now I will just believe in what can be proven. To me that is evidence, science, study, learning, etc. Its nice to no longer go on just faith alone anymore. :)

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If you are faced with an impending judgment, even though you don’t consider the threat valid, don’t you think it is wise to prove or disprove this judgment?

 

What reasons do you have to think that I am face with impending judgement? Apparently you are the weatherman in this, so the burden is upon you.

 

For example, if a weather forecaster has issued a hurricane warning for the region you live in, do you simply heed his warning just because he told you so, and then evacuate? Or, will you attempt to prove in some manner, however uncomplicated it may be, that his warning is valid before you evacuate?

 

Weak analogy. Hurricanes and weather warnings are tangible. If a weatherman forecasted a hurricane warning without providing evidence, I would not believe him, that would be a more accurate analogy.

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What would it take for you to believe in the Judeo/Christian God?

 

with one stipulation…

 

For those of you who refuse to believe in an all intelligent being whom Christians call God, who created the universe and all that resides in it, and who loves mankind enough to personally dwell in each of our hearts after confessing we are sinners trusting Jesus for salvation, what conditions would you require to personally believe in this God?

 

Now, go ahead and list your conditions and requirements that you feel you would need to begin placing belief in this God, but I have only one stipulation: At no time in this dimension can you physically see God.

chaz

 

 

Heb 11:1-3

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

(NKJ)

 

Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

(NKJ)

 

I would like to add that it has never been detectable regarding the author of Hebrews. Many assume Paul, some assume a more divine writer.

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If a rib came out of my body and that rib turned into a woman, then I would believe god exist.

 

If a fiery chariot and fiery horses popped out of the sky and took my dad into heaven I would believe.

 

If an supernatural (god, angel, whatever) being comes down, wrestles me, breaks my hip and changes my name then I would believe

 

If an animal, like a donkey or a snake starts to talk to me, and says God let him talk, I will believe

 

I hope you see where I'm going with this. People in the bible got tangible evidence. They didn't rely on blind faith why should I?

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If a rib came out of my body and that rib turned into a woman, then I would believe god exist.

 

If a fiery chariot and fiery horses popped out of the sky and took my dad into heaven I would believe.

 

If an supernatural (god, angel, whatever) being comes down, wrestles me, breaks my hip and changes my name then I would believe

 

If an animal, like a donkey or a snake starts to talk to me, and says God let him talk, I will believe

 

I hope you see where I'm going with this. People in the bible got tangible evidence. They didn't rely on blind faith why should I?

 

Well, if you are weighing the events in the Bible, then do so accordingly. Jesus came after all these things during a time of staleness and story telling, with talk even in regard to if Jesus was Elijah. The religious scope at that time was unspectacular, with the only eye raising event happening in the form of John and his water Baptism.

 

People were electrified at the miracles of Jesus, even telling others from John group to let him know that these things were happening as prophecied. Anyway, Jesus from the very begginning proclaimed that He was the I Am in a sense; after reading the Issiah prophecy and saying today this is fulfilled.

 

The defining line here is that there are many reasons why you wont ever see those things and could possibily live your entire life without that concrete foundation. BUT, the thing is, unless you observe the above events in conjunction with the storyline and the placing and timing of Jesus; then you cant even possibily give an accurate credit toward what He said or His followers said, concerning the signs we would have.

 

He said there were be none. Except that of Jonah, which even still many debate. Jesus said many things and I am attentive to the fact that even some of His followers got lost in translation.

 

I do have a joke though. If you were to try to explan to a monkey why people kill there families; How would you go about that?

 

:thanks:

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what would it take for me to believe in the christian god? for him to not be a logical impossibility.

 

it is impossible for a being to be both omniscient and omnipotent because omniscience limits omnipotence.

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Well, if you are weighing the events in the Bible, then do so accordingly. Jesus came after all these things during a time of staleness and story telling, with talk even in regard to if Jesus was Elijah. The religious scope at that time was unspectacular, with the only eye raising event happening in the form of John and his water Baptism.

 

People were electrified at the miracles of Jesus, even telling others from John group to let him know that these things were happening as prophecied. Anyway, Jesus from the very begginning proclaimed that He was the I Am in a sense; after reading the Issiah prophecy and saying today this is fulfilled.

 

The defining line here is that there are many reasons why you wont ever see those things and could possibily live your entire life without that concrete foundation. BUT, the thing is, unless you observe the above events in conjunction with the storyline and the placing and timing of Jesus; then you cant even possibily give an accurate credit toward what He said or His followers said, concerning the signs we would have.

 

He said there were be none. Except that of Jonah, which even still many debate. Jesus said many things and I am attentive to the fact that even some of His followers got lost in translation.

 

I didn't really understand your post. The thread said what would God need to do get me to believe in him with one stipulation. I followed that rule. I'm guessing your telling me to not use old testament stories so I'll follow your stipulation as well. Well for me to believe in God then I would like to see the acts of Jesus.

 

If want to see him or a prophet walk on a lake/ocean during a storm then I will believe

 

If I can see jesus or some prophet ascend into heaven in an open area with out any sign of trickery available, I will believe.

 

I want to see a clinically brain-dead patient who has been buried for three days come back to life

 

At least let me see an angel or something. It wouldn't be an act or a miracle to see them. The bible says they are real creatures that have firey swords and wings and everything. Just let me see one! Preferably a girl angel :HaHa:

 

I do have a joke though. If you were to try to explan to a monkey why people kill there families; How would you go about that?

 

:thanks:

Well first I'd have to learn the language of the monkey then explain to it that anger, jealousy cause people to kill.....wait are you being serious?

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What would it take for you to believe in the Judeo/Christian God?

 

He'd have to live up to the nature an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving being. In other words, he'd have to live up to the moral obligation he'd have to rid the world of evil and the devil, soothe all the hurts of the world (yes, that includes resurrecting the dead and restoring amputated limbs, etc), and in all other aspects behave like an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving god logically must.

 

But since it is blindingly evident no such beings exists, I do not and shall never believe in the god depicted in the Holah Babble.

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For starters, it would have to beat me at arm wrestling.

 

And then it would have to bake a better orange cake, brew better mead, and generally be a being more worthy of respect than all the mortals I currently know.

 

I am not being facetious here. Direct experience of the divine only. Keep your books and your prophets and teachers. They are completely meaningless to me.

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On the contrary, there is much more than assumption. The vast majority of bible scholars agree that the author of hebrews is Paul.

 

 

Uh...I don't think thiis is accurate, most biblical scholars agree that they have no idea who wrote Hebrews.

 

Even the 4th century church fathers almost didn't include it in the cannon because they weren''t sure if he wrote it. Tradition says he wrote it, mosts biblcal scholars in the last 100 years think he didn't

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Well, if you are weighing the events in the Bible, then do so accordingly. Jesus came after all these things during a time of staleness and story telling, with talk even in regard to if Jesus was Elijah. The religious scope at that time was unspectacular, with the only eye raising event happening in the form of John and his water Baptism.

What do you mean? There were many, many religious things going on at that time. Apollonius of Tyana was moving about the empire during this period and was an amazing person. He was respected and revered by pretty much all who met him. He was far from the only one by the way. No, this was not a stagnant period by any stretch of the imagination. John the Baptist was also more than a simple "eye raising event." He wasn't the "precursor" to the messiah as you'd like to believe. He was the full-fledged leader of a cult and that cult still has followers to this day. As much as xians like to cite Josephus to "prove" jesus why is it that Josephus barely mentions jesus (we'll assume the citations are legit instead of interpolations) but actually takes the time to write about John the Baptist in some detail? Perhaps because he actually existed to be written about? But I digress.

 

People were electrified at the miracles of Jesus, even telling others from John group to let him know that these things were happening as prophecied. Anyway, Jesus from the very begginning proclaimed that He was the I Am in a sense; after reading the Issiah prophecy and saying today this is fulfilled.

No. They weren't "electrified" by anything. Jesus did the same "tricks" as every other two-bit con that ran around casting out demons and healing in that time period. Later church leaders admit he was no different than the pagan gods of the day (and offered up their apologetics as to why that was of course). The bible says people came from all over to see jesus but there's no mention of jesus outside the bible. No "Dear diary, I am leaving Babylon today for my long journey to see this jesus so that I might be healed." Nothing of the sort from anywhere in the entirety of the places the bible says people came from to see jesus. Does it mean it didn't happen? No. Does it hurt its credibility? You bet. Why? Well, we do have records of people visiting the healers in Greece and other areas. If jesus was so well known and so powerful and all these others "gods" were revealed to be fakes then people would say "was going to go to the temple of <whatever god> but will be going to see mighty jesus instead... as he's the real deal." But people kept going to the fakes despite the fact that they lived in the areas where jesus was supposedly well known and had taken the world by storm. Not only that but those fakes kept healing just as good as ever and people kept writing about them instead of jesus.

 

Also, because of things like the bible saying in the book of Daniel that the king switching to worship old bible god and then we dig up proof that this guy pretty much worshipped Zoroaster until the day he died. Sounds like the bible likes to bend the truth a bit doesn't it? Does this mean the king didn't worship bible god? Nope, but if he did he kept it a big secret since he only wrote about and built temples to Zoroaster and AhuraMazda.

 

The defining line here is that there are many reasons why you wont ever see those things and could possibily live your entire life without that concrete foundation. BUT, the thing is, unless you observe the above events in conjunction with the storyline and the placing and timing of Jesus; then you cant even possibily give an accurate credit toward what He said or His followers said, concerning the signs we would have.

And here's the point of my examples to you. It is you that is missing the solid foundation. It is you that doesn't have a the proper context in which to place events. You see the world through blinders. I've just given you a couple of things. Now, I've cheated a bit, I mentioned the Book of Daniel (which is supposed to be from about 580BC even though it was likely written around 160BC) which isn't contempory with jesus but it does apply in that it shows that the bible tends to alter reality to suit its own agenda (and I've been taking a long look at Daniel lately so it's on my mind...it also came to mind since you mentioned "signs" since Daniel has them and xians are *way* off in interpreting them).

 

He said there were be none. Except that of Jonah, which even still many debate. Jesus said many things and I am attentive to the fact that even some of His followers got lost in translation.

 

I do have a joke though. If you were to try to explan to a monkey why people kill there families; How would you go about that?

Also, I thought the whole point of the thread was hypothetical? Like if you I could be any tree or something like that? So who cares if god/jesus or whoever says there won't be anymore signs?

 

The real answer to the question is bible god doesn't exist. I argue this stuff like who's the better captain Kirk or Picard? In the end it really doesn't matter since, as we all hopefully know, neither exist, but it's fun to argue. If we don't pretend they're real then the argument ends before it begins and what's the fun in that?

 

Also, I don't get your joke. Is it supposed to be funny to kill monkey families? Are we the monkies?

 

mwc

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What reasons do you have to think that I am face with impending judgement? Apparently you are the weatherman in this, so the burden is upon you.

Thank you for your retort, and I express regret that you feel my hurricane analogy was insufficient.

 

 

Yes, I agree, I am the weatherman in my analogy and I am the one warning you of a coming deadly storm (impending judgment)—the burden of proof rests upon me.

 

However, as in the case of a hurricane warning, and even by your own admission, you must exhibit some effort to determine if what I am warning you about is true.

 

 

 

Weak analogy. Hurricanes and weather warnings are tangible. If a weatherman forecasted a hurricane warning without providing evidence, I would not believe him, that would be a more accurate analogy.

I apologize if you feel my analogy was weak, however, I consider it very pertinent due to the fact that Christians have been warning non-Christians of a judgment awaiting them when they die since Christianity began 2000 years ago.

 

You say you would not heed a weatherman’s hurricane warning that hasn’t provided evidence yet you have 66 books written by over 40 different people over a period of 2800 years who all agree on every single subject, including what awaits the person when they die. Have you seriously taken the opportunity to disprove what each one of them has to say? These biblical authors are the ones holding the burden of proof for your hurricane warning.

 

So what I'm saying is that the burden of proof already exists, my friend…have you proved it or disproved it without any shadow of a doubt?

 

 

I know, I know…..through the centuries Atheists have always attacked the authenticity of the bible, but I would like to ask you that are critical of the bible, how do you explain the hundreds of fulfilled prophesies that were written before the event happened?

 

 

chaz

 

Keep your books and your prophets and teachers. They are completely meaningless to me.

Thank you, Astreja, for your reply to my opening post.

 

 

I would like to ask you, why are Christian books, prophets and teachers meaningless to you?

 

 

 

chaz

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I apologize if you feel my analogy was weak, however, I consider it very pertinent due to the fact that Christians have been warning non-Christians of a judgment awaiting them when they die since Christianity began 2000 years ago.

 

You say you would not heed a weatherman’s hurricane warning that hasn’t provided evidence yet you have 66 books written by over 40 different people over a period of 2800 years who all agree on every single subject, including what awaits the person when they die. Have you seriously taken the opportunity to disprove what each one of them has to say? These biblical authors are the ones holding the burden of proof for your hurricane warning.

 

So what I'm saying is that the burden of proof already exists, my friend…have you proved it or disproved it without any shadow of a doubt?

 

 

I know, I know…..through the centuries Atheists have always attacked the authenticity of the bible, but I would like to ask you that are critical of the bible, how do you explain the hundreds of fulfilled prophesies that were written before the event happened?

 

 

 

Uh...they aren't prophesies. I love how Christians claim this and then are unwilling to actually present an example of prophesies they feel were fulfilled.

 

Present something and then we can examine it. In any case, just because the writers predict 10,000 things will happen and a few hundred of them do only proves the law of averages. Especially when most of them are so vague that they could be made to say almost anything. Saying the bible has fulfilled prophesies is like saying that Nostradamus was a prophet.

 

Part of the problem is that you are looking at the bible as one homogeneous book when in fact it is not. I'll not tell you that EVERYTHING in the bible is false, only that SOME parts are in error. I only have to show one error to disprove inerrancy so you are fighting an uphill battle here.

 

I've studied the bible in great detail, including the process that it was written and compiled. Scholars have proof that early Christians edited and redacted early copies of the NT, we know this for a fact.

 

Matthew quotes the prophecy of the virgin birth in Issiah 7 that he is quoting from the septuagint (Greek OT translation) which improperly translated the word for young woman and 'virgin' So whoever wrote Matthew made a mistake

 

I, as an ex-christian, HAVE taken the warnings of Christians seriously, I examined them for many years and then decided they were wrong, perhaps this is hard for you to believe, but it is true.

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I wasn't surprised. Chaz's second post within this thread is good ole Blaise. However implicit. But still good ole Blaise just the same.

 

Oh, how quickly does the "rational" Christian resort to violence. Eh?

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I did once believe in god w/no evidence, that was faith. I no longer possess this faculty. Now it would take direct physical evidence of his existence. And not just a personal experience, I would need something objective and verifiable by outside sources. I know too well how easy it is to fool the perceptions of the individual...

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