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Reality And Spirituality


Soule
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no offence to you or your intelligence, but what an ignorant and arrogent thing to say...

 

Hmmm...so you think I'm ignorant and arrogant yet don't wish to offend me? Why make such a stipulation when clearly I'm going to be offended by such a gross misrepresentation.

 

Except for the arrogance.

 

your perspective would be based on "objective reality". that perspective would be what makes up your "individual reality".

 

Is there any way to get through to you? If my perspective is based off of reality and conforms to it, then it is not an individual reality.

 

What you experiance is your "indivicual reality", or "objective reality" being filtered by your perceptions. and because of this there are no "true truths" or "right or wrong" but that is another discussion.

 

Please, of course there are "true truths" and "right or wrong". What I experience IS reality. My experiences ARE my perceptions. Is there some kind of comprehension problem here?

 

please, read the wiki and make sure you understand it before you continue.

 

Don't patronize me.

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no offence to you or your intelligence, but what an ignorant and arrogent thing to say...

 

Hmmm...so you think I'm ignorant and arrogant yet don't wish to offend me? Why make such a stipulation when clearly I'm going to be offended by such a gross misrepresentation.

 

Except for the arrogance.

 

your perspective would be based on "objective reality". that perspective would be what makes up your "individual reality".

 

Is there any way to get through to you? If my perspective is based off of reality and conforms to it, then it is not an individual reality.

 

What you experiance is your "indivicual reality", or "objective reality" being filtered by your perceptions. and because of this there are no "true truths" or "right or wrong" but that is another discussion.

 

Please, of course there are "true truths" and "right or wrong". What I experience IS reality. My experiences ARE my perceptions. Is there some kind of comprehension problem here?

 

please, read the wiki and make sure you understand it before you continue.

 

Don't patronize me.

 

ya know what? lets make this a heck of alot easier and just ask you to define for me absolute reality.

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the reason that perception of something is not proof of its existance is that there is illusion.

 

 

you are a realist.

 

you define reality thusly:

 

"The view that there is a reality independent of any beliefs, perceptions, etc., is called realism. More specifically, philosophers are given to speaking about "realism about" this and that, such as realism about universals or realism about the external world. Generally, where one can identify any class of object the existence or essential characteristics of which is said to depend on perceptions, beliefs, language, or any other human artifact, one can speak of "realism about" that object."

 

thats fine. believe in realism all you want. all i'm getting at is our ability to experiance it. i'll let kant talk here.

 

It has been sufficiently proved in the transcendental Æsthetic that everything which is perceived in space and time, therefore all objects of an experience possible to us, are nothing but phenomena, that is, mere representations which, such as they are represented, namely, as extended beings, or series of changes, have no independent existence outside our thoughts.

 

 

 

in other words, what we percieve to be reality is not reality. but only perspectives of that reality. thus the individual reality (or what we experiance when we percieve reality) is born

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"We all ride our own donkey."

 

I think that the fact that we can 1) percieve or measure the world external to us, 2) reason or infer from our perceptions and 3) sometimes correctly predict what the "world" will do implies that the "world external" to us does in fact have a texture or a grain to it. That in fact there are entailments in the world around us and that we can discover what these entailments are in both kind and degree.

 

But that's just my perspective.

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the reason that perception of something is not proof of its existance is that there is illusion.

 

Define illusion.

 

It has been sufficiently proved in the transcendental Æsthetic that everything which is perceived in space and time, therefore all objects of an experience possible to us, are nothing but phenomena, that is, mere representations which, such as they are represented, namely, as extended beings, or series of changes, have no independent existence outside our thoughts.

 

Yes, I've read Kant. I don't agree with his ideas. He hasn't proved anything.

 

in other words, what we percieve to be reality is not reality. but only perspectives of that reality. thus the individual reality (or what we experiance when we percieve reality) is born

 

Again, I disagree for the very reasons that I've stated previously.

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WRONG!

 

1. My perspective is BASED off of reality.

2. What I experience is reality.

3. Percepts = Experiences. I do not perceive reality any different than other people who have 5 senses like I do. I interpret the evidence using the faculties of non-contradictory identification (REASON) and come to my conclusions using rationality. Thus my perspective is based off of reality. The conclusions that people come to (perspectives) are either true or false. Using logic we can deduce and decide which perspective is right and which is wrong.

 

Contradictory and illogical perspectives are wrong.

 

So.... who's the all-powerful one that gets to decide which perspectives are "contradictory" or "illogical"? :wicked:

 

Perception doesn't define reality. Perception is the observance of reality through the senses. The world doesn't change when you close your eyes.

 

No... the world does not change because we close our eyes. But, the world does change because of human perception.

 

Human perception can very much define reality.....

 

If a group of human beings perceive that the tribulation is at hand - they are certainly capable of impacting reality in such a way as to effect the world around them in very concrete ways. :shrug:

 

If a group of human beings perceives that humanity is capable of building a peace from within - they are certainly capable of impacting reality in such a way as to effect the world around them in very concrete ways. :shrug:

 

Over hundreds of thousands of years of human existence - human perception has defined reality - whether we like it or not. The religions, the governments, the economies of the world are nothing more than extensions of human perceptions. Even - Wall Street operates on human perception, the movement of the markets (up or down) are very much based upon human perception.

 

Who's to decide which of the innumerable human perceptions involved in the molding of our concrete daily realities is "contradictory", "illogical" or "wrong"? :shrug:

 

Even the concepts of "contradictory", "illogical" or "wrong" are subjective - and thus part of individual human perception. :shrug:

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Yes, individual realities are in fact a valid type of reality.

 

I think I see what Soule is saying. Welcome to these forums Soule! :grin:

 

Antlerman, wouldn't you say that much of what we call reality is simply an illusion? What we seem to think is solid, is really mostly space. What color we see something, is the only color it is not. Perhaps the way we sense our environment is not really all that effective, however... it's the only way we have at the moment. I suppose these form collective realities/illusions, yet many may have their own subjective experiences concerning these things that may influence it in an individually tailored way, right? Some may see a table, some may see a great piece of craftmanship, some may see the lovely contributions of an Oak Tree, heck some may see the table as shelter from an earthquake! :shrug:

 

BTW Antlerman, please put me on your list of those who want to purchase a copy of your book when you have them available. :)

 

Is there any way to get through to you? If my perspective is based off of reality and conforms to it, then it is not an individual reality.

---------------------------------

Please, of course there are "true truths" and "right or wrong". What I experience IS reality. My experiences ARE my perceptions. Is there some kind of comprehension problem here?

:)Asimov, Asimov, Asimov... wouldn't YOUR perception more specifically be YOUR reality? Don't even the leading scientist disagree about many things? Isn't science evolving all the time, as it should be? What was reality in the last century, is not necessarily reality this one. Further, isn't our reality different than the reality of the Asians to some degree? Is our reality different from each other, as NOT all people perceive reality as the scientist do. Our senses have let us down more than once, such as when our reality was that the world was flat. How do we know what reality is? Voodoo seems to be a reality in some countries and very effective... because it is their reality. Same for our placebo effects. It seems obvious to me that we have individual realities, and subjective experiences have a great influence on it. :scratch:

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Yes, individual realities are in fact a valid type of reality.

 

I think I see what Soule is saying. Welcome to these forums Soule! :grin:

 

Antlerman, wouldn't you say that much of what we call reality is simply an illusion? What we seem to think is solid, is really mostly space. What color we see something, is the only color it is not. Perhaps the way we sense our environment is not really all that effective, however... it's the only way we have at the moment. I suppose these form collective realities/illusions, yet many may have their own subjective experiences concerning these things that may influence it in an individually tailored way, right? Some may see a table, some may see a great piece of craftmanship, some may see the lovely contributions of an Oak Tree, heck some may see the table as shelter from an earthquake! :shrug:

 

BTW Antlerman, please put me on your list of those who want to purchase a copy of your book when you have them available. :)

 

Is there any way to get through to you? If my perspective is based off of reality and conforms to it, then it is not an individual reality.

---------------------------------

Please, of course there are "true truths" and "right or wrong". What I experience IS reality. My experiences ARE my perceptions. Is there some kind of comprehension problem here?

:)Asimov, Asimov, Asimov... wouldn't YOUR perception more specifically be YOUR reality? Don't even the leading scientist disagree about many things? Isn't science evolving all the time, as it should be? What was reality in the last century, is not necessarily reality this one. Further, isn't our reality different than the reality of the Asians to some degree? Is our reality different from each other, as NOT all people perceive reality as the scientist do. Our senses have let us down more than once, such as when our reality was that the world was flat. How do we know what reality is? Voodoo seems to be a reality in some countries and very effective... because it is their reality. Same for our placebo effects. It seems obvious to me that we have individual realities, and subjective experiences have a great influence on it. :scratch:

 

indeed amanda. so in this sense, couldent god exist in many different realities at once? as multiple gods, and as one god depending on the perception and reality of the individual that he exists to?

 

i would mainly love to get some christian input here.

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indeed amanda. so in this sense, couldent god exist in many different realities at once? as multiple gods, and as one god depending on the perception and reality of the individual that he exists to?

 

i would mainly love to get some christian input here.

 

Well ... I'm not sure you're looking for input from a liberal Christian - but I'll bite. ;)

 

 

If God is Infinite Reality ------- then this can be perceived as One - as multiple - as many different ways as there are people to perceive.

 

No human can ever fully grasp Infinite Reality - so it only makes sense that every human will perceive it differently.

 

The problem isn't in our different perceptions - the problem is that humans have a tendancy to hold onto their individual perceptions as the ONLY TRUE way to perceive.

 

Does this help answer your question? :)

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indeed amanda. so in this sense, couldent god exist in many different realities at once? as multiple gods, and as one god depending on the perception and reality of the individual that he exists to?

 

i would mainly love to get some christian input here.

 

Well ... I'm not sure you're looking for input from a liberal Christian - but I'll bite. ;)

 

 

If God is Infinite Reality ------- then this can be perceived as One - as multiple - as many different ways as there are people to perceive.

 

No human can ever fully grasp Infinite Reality - so it only makes sense that every human will perceive it differently.

 

The problem isn't in our different perceptions - the problem is that humans have a tendancy to hold onto their individual perceptions as the ONLY TRUE way to perceive.

 

Does this help answer your question? :)

 

well your answer was quite liberal. seeing as that you agree that there are many ways to view god. conservative christians would say that there was only one true way to view him and that theirs was it XD.

 

conservative christians would disagree that there is more than one correct way to worship god. and its their logical reasoning that i would love to see.

 

hahah i read your response wrong. i thought you said that you wernt a liberal christian :D

 

sorry bout that.

 

but yes i am looking for more conservative points of view.

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indeed amanda. so in this sense, couldent god exist in many different realities at once? as multiple gods, and as one god depending on the perception and reality of the individual that he exists to?

 

i would mainly love to get some christian input here.

:)Soule, IMO, we can learn a lot about "god" by just trying to define him/her/it on these forums. It's especially enlightening for me, to debate a definition of God with an Atheist. They seem to keep me from straying too far... 'cause I have a tendency to hang out on the outer fringes.

 

Presently, I believe there is the only ONE true God... and everything that exists is part of it. However, I'm certainly open to there perhaps being many gods living side by side... like one universe next to another, or one dimension next to another one. :scratch:

 

Heck, maybe we create separate gods, by our thinking, on an alter reality. :eek::HaHa:

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indeed amanda. so in this sense, couldent god exist in many different realities at once? as multiple gods, and as one god depending on the perception and reality of the individual that he exists to?

 

i would mainly love to get some christian input here.

:)Soule, IMO, we can learn a lot about "god" by just trying to define him/her/it on these forums. It's especially enlightening for me, to debate a definition of God with an Atheist. They seem to keep me from straying too far... 'cause I have a tendency to hang out on the outer fringes.

 

Presently, I believe there is the only ONE true God... and everything that exists is part of it. However, I'm certainly open to there perhaps being many gods living side by side... like one universe next to another, or one dimension next to another one. :scratch:

 

Heck, maybe we create separate gods, by our thinking, on an alter reality. :eek::HaHa:

 

well if you believe in the law of attraction we manifest situations and basically anythign else with our thought including our futures. so gods as well wouldent be too far fetched.

 

lets stick to the christian definition of god, as illogical and impssible as it may be.

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well if you believe in the law of attraction we manifest situations and basically anythign else with our thought including our futures. so gods as well wouldent be too far fetched.

 

lets stick to the christian definition of god, as illogical and impssible as it may be.

:) Hey Soule, pardon me, as I have not encountered but only a few of your posts... however, I am interested with this law of attraction, yet not familiar with it. I too believe that we manifest situations with out thoughts, and that would have to be our future. Whatever we believe to be real, is real to us! Consciousness, subconsciousness, and even unconsciousness are much more powerful than the average person gives it credit, IMO. I've already mentioned the effects of voodoo curses and placebo effects on those that believe.

 

Now, I do think people create gods such as money, their house, their job, etc... but I don't think that is what you are referencing. Now that you've stimulated my curiosity... please explain! :beg:

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You're right, everything you believe is real is real. Even if it's not. When you hallucinate that a table is hot Swedish bisexuals, then somewhere, there are hot Swedish bisexuals. They may not exist outside your mind, but they do exist, if only as abnormal (not to be confused with anything negative, although it can be) brain activity. Again, if reality is objective, then it would exist regardless of our perception. For instance, it may be that I see the color blue the way you see the color red, but we still agree that the color we are both seeing is blue, no matter how we percieve it. The reality is still whatever it is, which might not be what either of us see.

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:)Asimov, Asimov, Asimov... wouldn't YOUR perception more specifically be YOUR reality?

 

No, my percepts are the result of experiencing reality. It has nothing to do with "my" or "your" reality. We both experience reality, acting in a rational way (non-contradictory) and using logic and reason to shape our beliefs is having our perspective coincide with reality. The only time someones perspective diverges from reality is when it's contradictory, illogical, or irrational!

 

Don't even the leading scientist disagree about many things? Isn't science evolving all the time, as it should be? What was reality in the last century, is not necessarily reality this one.

 

In what way, though? Just because things change in objective reality doesn't mean much. It means that we must always be searching for more information that allows us to come to a more and more accurate conclusion, thus keeping our perspectives aligned with reality.

 

Further, isn't our reality different than the reality of the Asians to some degree?

 

What?

 

Is our reality different from each other, as NOT all people perceive reality as the scientist do. Our senses have let us down more than once, such as when our reality was that the world was flat. How do we know what reality is? Voodoo seems to be a reality in some countries and very effective... because it is their reality. Same for our placebo effects. It seems obvious to me that we have individual realities, and subjective experiences have a great influence on it. :scratch:

 

We all have the same senses, Amanda...so what are you talking about?

 

indeed amanda. so in this sense, couldent god exist in many different realities at once? as multiple gods, and as one god depending on the perception and reality of the individual that he exists to?

 

In what way would this God exist?

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lets stick to the christian definition of god, as illogical and impssible as it may be.

 

Just asking here, Soule. ;)

 

What Christian definition of God would that be? There are 10s of 1000s of denominations with 10s of 1000s of different perceptions - leading to 10s of 1000s of different definitions of God....

 

Leading right back to your OP, I would imagine..... :lmao:

 

_________________________

 

To be fair, though, there are the more literal perceptions of God (god is exactly what the Bible literally says, word for word).

 

And there are the more open and less literal perceptions - God is Oneness, Ultimate Reality, beyond full human comprehension (or perception), God is Love, Wisdom, Spirit ... etc....

 

But, I see where you're heading. ;)

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No, my percepts are the result of experiencing reality. It has nothing to do with "my" or "your" reality. We both experience reality, acting in a rational way (non-contradictory) and using logic and reason to shape our beliefs is having our perspective coincide with reality. The only time someones perspective diverges from reality is when it's contradictory, illogical, or irrational!

 

:)Asimov, isn't your reality based on YOUR interpretations of your experience? I agree with Dhampir on this:

 

Again, if reality is objective, then it would exist regardless of our perception. For instance, it may be that I see the color blue the way you see the color red, but we still agree that the color we are both seeing is blue, no matter how we percieve it. The reality is still whatever it is, which might not be what either of us see.

 

And Asimov, even the greatest contemporary scientific minds of reason and logic do not agree on many things!

 

In what way, though? Just because things change in objective reality doesn't mean much. It means that we must always be searching for more information that allows us to come to a more and more accurate conclusion, thus keeping our perspectives aligned with reality.

It means reality isn't what we thought it was. I agree in a continual search for the truth... although reality seems to evade our grasp. We have to have some sense of collective reality, in order to survive!

 

Further, isn't our reality different than the reality of the Asians to some degree?

 

What?

Example: Some Asian cultures 'objectively' view females less valuable than males. Molly, the lady that use to be head of the feminist movement, I understand to have said that her parents were sent sympathy cards after her birth because they had had a girl. Western reality views that differently.

 

Is our reality different from each other, as NOT all people perceive reality as the scientist do. Our senses have let us down more than once, such as when our reality was that the world was flat. How do we know what reality is? Voodoo seems to be a reality in some countries and very effective... because it is their reality. Same for our placebo effects. It seems obvious to me that we have individual realities, and subjective experiences have a great influence on it. :scratch:

 

We all have the same senses, Amanda...so what are you talking about?

 

Exactly! Our senses told us the world was flat... and that became reality! We think many things are solid, they are not. Spontaneous generation was obvious, and that became our reality. Newton's laws of gravity was determined with logic and reason, and that became our reality. We take a pill to cure an infection, and the infection is gone, the pill was a placebo, unknown to the patient. People who believe in voodoo curses actually die if they believe one was put on them. Reality becomes really blurred if one thinks about it too much. Even Einstien said that all this is an illusion, albeit, a very persistent one.

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It means reality isn't what we thought it was. I agree in a continual search for the truth... although reality seems to evade our grasp.

The reason I like this part here is because if we are the universe experiencing itself, then we will never be able to grasp it. It's like what happens when you try to look at the back of your own head! It is us we are trying to grasp.

 

Just my

.02

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:)Asimov, Asimov, Asimov... wouldn't YOUR perception more specifically be YOUR reality?

 

No, my percepts are the result of experiencing reality. It has nothing to do with "my" or "your" reality. We both experience reality, acting in a rational way (non-contradictory) and using logic and reason to shape our beliefs is having our perspective coincide with reality. The only time someones perspective diverges from reality is when it's contradictory, illogical, or irrational!

 

Don't even the leading scientist disagree about many things? Isn't science evolving all the time, as it should be? What was reality in the last century, is not necessarily reality this one.

 

In what way, though? Just because things change in objective reality doesn't mean much. It means that we must always be searching for more information that allows us to come to a more and more accurate conclusion, thus keeping our perspectives aligned with reality.

 

Further, isn't our reality different than the reality of the Asians to some degree?

 

What?

 

Is our reality different from each other, as NOT all people perceive reality as the scientist do. Our senses have let us down more than once, such as when our reality was that the world was flat. How do we know what reality is? Voodoo seems to be a reality in some countries and very effective... because it is their reality. Same for our placebo effects. It seems obvious to me that we have individual realities, and subjective experiences have a great influence on it. :scratch:

 

We all have the same senses, Amanda...so what are you talking about?

 

indeed amanda. so in this sense, couldent god exist in many different realities at once? as multiple gods, and as one god depending on the perception and reality of the individual that he exists to?

 

In what way would this God exist?

-your perceptions of reality define the experiance. if you experianced reality before you percieve it then no perceptions would form. example: my perception of 911 is that it was murder. a terrorists perception of 911 is that it was fully justified and a great thing to happen. both are different realities. both are correct depending on PERCEPTION to define them. not to mention they are both contradictory, yet seem to still coexist.

 

-things dont change in objective reality. physics are going to stay they way they are. black holes are going to continue pulling things into them, and particles are going to continue to act like mass when observed and waves when not observed. that is objective reality. the reality beyond any perception.

 

-we all have the same senses, however we percieve things through those senses diffently. for example, people have different foods that they consider their favorite. if everyone sensed food the same then we would all have one food that we considered our favorite.

 

-god would exist in different ways acording to perception. different perceptions of god are called "religions". those religions are followed and are part of each persons reality. your reality is that god does not exist. a christians reality is that god does exist. so in objective reality god would be both one and many. the many making up the one, but each part of the one being a whole in themselves. so someone saying there is only one god would be right, and someone saying there are many gods would be right. both realities are correct.

 

also amanda

 

-god is omnipotent

 

-god is omniscient

 

-god is omnibenovolant

 

-god is perfect

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It means reality isn't what we thought it was. I agree in a continual search for the truth... although reality seems to evade our grasp.

The reason I like this part here is because if we are the universe experiencing itself, then we will never be able to grasp it. It's like what happens when you try to look at the back of your own head! It is us we are trying to grasp.

 

Just my

.02

 

NBBTB, I like how Carl Sagan said that we are part of the cosmos seeking to know itself.

 

I look at it as more of a waking up, a consciousness experiencing the journey of maturity through finding and knowing itself. Or maybe even an evolution of an organism, which I suppose would be the same thing.

 

Maybe we are a huge developing organism in a really big egg, and one day we are going to become 'one being' and break out of here! :eek:

 

:HaHa:

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Example: Some Asian cultures 'objectively' view females less valuable than males. Molly, the lady that use to be head of the feminist movement, I understand to have said that her parents were sent sympathy cards after her birth because they had had a girl. Western reality views that differently.
Yeah, okay. So does that mean that the reality is that they're less valuable? Their culture is no different from ours in the regard that their subjectivity is colored by their personal desires. some cultures held that women, being *somewhat* physically weaker, were not capable of fighting, leading or engaging in intellectual pursuits. It has long since been proven that this is not the case. Does that mean that the reality changed in face of the new information, or is it that man's understanding of the evidence and gradually changing worldview caused a change in outlook?

 

Slaves were once regarded as only fit and intelligent enough for the manual labor chores for which they were bred. Slaves clearly had the capacity for more, however, a couple more centuries of selective breeding would have made that the case. See my point?

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Example: Some Asian cultures 'objectively' view females less valuable than males. Molly, the lady that use to be head of the feminist movement, I understand to have said that her parents were sent sympathy cards after her birth because they had had a girl. Western reality views that differently.
Yeah, okay. So does that mean that the reality is that they're less valuable?

 

Yes and No... :shrug:

 

One would have to ask the women who live with that culture day in and day out what the "reality" is.

 

Potential and reality are two different things.

 

Every human has much higher potential than they act out in "reality". Every human has much higher potential than they perceive that they have. And when one is told all their lives that they are weak, that they are incapable of intellectual pursuit, etc... then one has a tendancy to perceive this as "truth" and act this out as "reality".

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Every human has much higher potential than they act out in "reality". Every human has much higher potential than they perceive that they have. And when one is told all their lives that they are weak, that they are incapable of intellectual pursuit, etc... then one has a tendancy to perceive this as "truth" and act this out as "reality".

But, isn't this

Every human has much higher potential than they act out in "reality". Every human has much higher potential than they perceive that they have.
the reality, as far as it seems, and this
And when one is told all their lives that they are weak, that they are incapable of intellectual pursuit, etc... then one has a tendancy to perceive this as "truth" and act this out as "reality"
The perception?
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Every human has much higher potential than they act out in "reality". Every human has much higher potential than they perceive that they have. And when one is told all their lives that they are weak, that they are incapable of intellectual pursuit, etc... then one has a tendancy to perceive this as "truth" and act this out as "reality".

But, isn't this

Every human has much higher potential than they act out in "reality". Every human has much higher potential than they perceive that they have.
the reality, as far as it seems, and this
And when one is told all their lives that they are weak, that they are incapable of intellectual pursuit, etc... then one has a tendancy to perceive this as "truth" and act this out as "reality"
The perception?

 

 

untrue things can indeed be considered reality.

take for instance color. what we see as blue is not blue. it is an illusion created by the brain, however the reality is considered to be that blue is blue because blue is all that we can understand, even though that is not true reality. so part of our individual reality is that blue is blue.

 

we have a certain amount of receptors in our eyes that distinguish different wavelengths of light. there is a lobster that has more than double the amount of receptors than we do and sees quite a few more colors than we do. so that is to say that the reality of "color" is not objective reality, but an individual reality.

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